#ask versus guess culture

[benevolentbirdgal]

Broadly speaking and a little oversimplified:

Ask Culture: You can ask, but the answer may be no. Few questions are off the table if any, but it's understood that you may get no for an answer. There isn't generally an obligation presumed of the asker or the person being asked. An answer is typically expected though.

Guess Culture: Requesting only stuff that is going to be a yes or likely a yes. Shared expectations set understandings of what are acceptable requests and inform what and how people make requests. The expectation is the answer will be yes, with the added layer of being able to discern if the yes is enthusiastic or out of politeness when deciding whether to accept the offer.

Cooperative Overlap Culture basically means interruptions with the intent not necessarily to take the speaking floor, but to demonstrate interest, to empathize, and to indicate (but not forcefully take) the overlapped would like a turn. For people from these cultures, silence can feel like disinterest and it can be difficult to parse when the other party would like to speak.

Turn-Taking Culture basically means waiting until the other person has finished speaking. For those from Turn-Taking Cultures, interruptions can indicate the other speaker is taking the floor and feel rude (or like the interrupter isn't listening).

[ao3cassandraic]

I’m wondering about your thoughts on something I’ve been musing on after S2. How good is Aziraphale’s reading comprehension? How much does he understand subtext and metaphor? Because his behavior this season struck me with the impression that he didn’t really understand the books he collects. He’s clever at puzzle solving, and contains vast knowledge; but he always seems to take things at face value (when he’s not willfully misunderstanding), and refuses to give up black-and-white thinking, which would make it very difficult to analyze texts.

Angels, demons, language, and culture: part 1

You sure ask the difficult ones. (Which is great, I'm totally jazzed about it!)

I delayed answering this ask because it sent me off in a lot of directions:

What is an angel's starting knowledge base?

In contrast, how and what do we humans learn about our world and one another?

Which of these learning methods is not really available to an angel?

What do humans learn from books, fiction especially?

What kinds of information get left implicit in books because authors are humans writing for other humans?

How would an angel fill in those blanks? How would those blanks distort an angel's notion of How Humans and Human Things Work?

What would angels generally and either Aziraphale or Muriel (because yeah, it's hard to have this discussion without thinking about Muriel too) specifically read human-authored fiction for?

I don't have all the answers to the above questions. Not even CLOSE. I happily invite my fellow meta-ists to weigh in on any or all of them!

But let's see what I can tease out. We'll start with factory settings, so to speak.

Angelic vs. human factory settings

(questions 1 through 3)

Angels have (one) language. They have music -- or, at least, they can sing Her praises (likely by rote). At least some, like our Starmaker, have the knowledge to do specific jobs. Note that Aziraphale not only doesn't know how to make stars and nebulas, he's not even clear on what a nebula is. We can safely assume from that that angels don't all possess the same set of knowledge and skills purely by virtue (heh) of being angels.

We don't see, however, how much of what they know is simply an angel's birthright versus how much of it is somehow educated into them. We also don't know how She divvies up necessary knowledge, though I'd think it safe (given most takes on angelology) to guess that angelic rank and intended function are part of Her calculus, perhaps even the whole of it.

What strikes me hardest is that angels seem to be created either as adults or children (which is what I believe the scareable "cherubs" are), and they may well never change that state. The Starmaker is childlike in some ways, but not a child. Likely never was a child! Aziraphale, Before the Beginning, isn't childlike at all; his personality seems pretty close to fully-formed.

And children learn so very, very much. Babies learn so much as babies, while their neuroplasticity is super super plastic! Especially they learn about relating to other beings! (Which the Starmaker is conspicuously Not Real Great at, honestly -- absorbed in the work of creation, the Starmaker does not pick up the feelings Aziraphale is laying down at all.)

Children also learn one OR MORE languages, and that "more" is rather important, because language shapes how we think to some extent (the extent of that extent, and its nature, are objects of fierce debate among linguists and neuroscientists), and different languages shape us differently. Just as Crowley (as plenty of theologians argue) did humanity a favor with the whole knowledge-of-good-and-evil thing, the Tower of Babel (assuming that was a thing that happened in the GOverse; no reason it wouldn't have, I suppose) added a whole lot of nuance and complexity and competing understandings to humanity's sense of itself and its universe.

Exactly how angels and demons manage to speak all human languages (which Crowley indicates they can) isn't clear. If we accept that the Tower of Babel happened, both Heaven and Hell must have had to figure out a way to deal with it.

We do see, however, that angels and demons can be fluent in human languages without being fluent in human thought or human cultures. Gabriel and Sandalphon speak perfect English yet barely know which end of a book is up. Hastur and Ligur can't disentangle ciao/chow. And, I mean, actual food? Fuhgeddaboudit. So I see their linguistic facility as a sort of Douglas Adams Babel fish: it can translate an angel's or demon's thought into the target language, but it can't help an angel or demon think like an actual speaker of that language.

As an example, Gabriel can tell Job and Sitis about their new children, perfectly fluently. His purely-linguistic fluency does not help him understand that they loved their old children, much less why.

This may explain why Aziraphale studied French under M. Rossignol. He perhaps didn't feel he understood how French speakers think, and was interested enough in that to learn the language (as other meta-ists have noted, the language of love!) the human way.

So yeah, if I have a conclusion here it's that angels and demons can seem as off-center as they often do from a human perspective because they wholly missed out on a key period of human brain development.

What they have in its place appears to be... rules. Which is, I think, where I'll take this next.

[bottomless-pit-of-whining]

So here's a thing I wish I could put on my main blog, or post on my Facebook, but I think all it would do is make me feel even more miserable and alone.

So, I consider myself Jewish and always have. That's my cultural and ethnic heritage on my dad's side of the family, the only family I grew up with. Yes, patrilineal, but I'm still Jewish. My dad's grandparents fled pogroms in Ukraine and came to the US as deeply traumatized people seeking survival. You can see the repercussions of that recent history in the generations that followed them. For the past few years, I've been actively working to find my place in that history and that heritage, because it's a part of who I am and who I will always be, and I want to be able to be part of it in return. That's my personal context.

When a terrorist group murdered and kidnapped a bunch of civilians last October, I was horrified. When a far-right extremist government retaliated by slaughtering an unthinkable number of civilians, I was horrified. I contacted my own politicians, I donated what money I could spare, I wept at the nightmare that was playing out.

I continue to be horrified as the inhumanity continues, at the sheer scale of tragedy and terror. I wish I had any power to stop it, and I do the small things I can to try to help alleviate suffering.

But you know what else has horrified me? The way my so-called allies, the leftists, the social justice warriors, have responded. I'm lucky that I could grow up without hate being thrown my direction (perhaps because people where I grew up did not know I was Jewish despite my very Jewish last name), but I am aware of what Jew-hate looks like. And I have been seeing people I thought I could trust now wallowing in variations of centuries-old hatred without questioning it, believing outright lies that can be easily disproven with even the most superficial fact-checking, listening to people who wish to do harm, and reducing a complex situation to the stark black-and-white, good-versus-evil conflict from a bad young adult novel.

I'm still going to hope for peace. I'm still trying to contribute what I can to help victims of violence and war.

But, speaking frankly, I don't trust a lot of people anymore and I probably never will. There is no place for me in leftist social justice communities.

I don't know why people have hated Jews for so long, except that I suppose it feels good to have someone else to blame your problems on. But people really truly do hate Jews, and they really truly have for a very long time with unthinkably tragic consequences, and there are modern groups who are absolutely thrilled to be able to bring newcomers into their circles of Jew-hate in the guise of fighting for justice.

And so many of the people I thought were my friends are following them into it without a second thought.

I am disappointed. I am betrayed. I am hopeless.

And I guess I'm pretty damn alone, because I am sure as hell not going to align myself with people whose values are in opposition to my own just because the leftists are also showing their hate.

It breaks my heart.

I'm posting this on my secret sideblog because, I don't know, I've been reading Jumblr for months now and it often helps me feel less alone and I suppose I am reaching out a hand asking if anyone else will be willing to take my hand and tell me I am not alone.

We are not a monolith, I know some of you feel differently from me in either direction, but I know at least some of you feel like I do and even those of you who don't fully align with me will still not smear me with hatred.

Tomorrow I am going to my first ever Rosh Hashanah service and I have been doing my best to prepare and I want to be proud, I want to be joyful, I want to embrace hope for a brighter new year and I want to shout to the rooftops that my people are beautiful and our traditions are beautiful and isn't it wonderful that I am able to step back where I belong among them, but instead I want to weep.

[absolutebl]

Hi.

I was watching TharnType for the first time. I started wondering why people have issues with gay for you and wifey and other things like that. From what I'm seeing it isn't intended in a harmful spirit. It's not received badly in the show in context. I'm not just specifically talking about TharnType but just these tropes in general. I was wondering if someone, the writer/screenwriter, director, any actor or someone else said that they'd intended it as demeaning or in a bad way... I don't know if I phrased that correctly. But I guess I'm wondering what people are basing this on. Even UWMA's Pharm's entire demeanor. Before I watched it I'd read that he is too feminine and damsel in distress-y. But watching the show made me realize that he is traumatized. I noticed similar patterns with other shows as well. Is it audience interpretations?

BL Is a Mess of Really Damaging Stuff & You Probably Shouldn't Just Accept it

Because, if you do just accept it without thought, you're also being damaged. If you're gay, you're being taught a type of gayness that doesn't exist and will fuck up your expectations. If you're straight you're misinterpreting what an entire group of people are like (that's prejudice, FYI). And if you're somewhere in between you're learning really bad behavior patterns for your coming out and self actualization journey.

And no, I don't think you're capable of distinguishing fiction from reality, because you've just asked a question that patently demonstrates a burgeoning parasocial tendency. (And yes, parasocial relationships can and do form with fictional characters. Why do you think I am so terrified by KinnPorsche fandom and shipper culture?)

Here have some education, first one is free:

Imaginary Friends & Real-World Consequences: Parasocial Relationships (YouTube video)

But also, if you don't want me to rant about this, and you just wanted to justify your questionable taste, you should stop reading right now. I get it, denial is great! Go sail that river.

Here I am talking about the good BL can do. That doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws.

Still reading?

Okay, well, now you asked for it.

And guess what, I'm not gonna sugar lube coat it.

Consider yourself Drunk Type lying in a bed and I'm Tharn's c*** shoving some dry BL reality into your a******.

Oh, don't like that image, do you?

Tough nuts.

Put yourself in my position. I don't wanna have to do this either.

Consider this a "BL narratives made me do it" post.

I'm not responsible for anything, I'm just an archetype.

I'll be your seme for today and you were all just "too cute" for me to resist and now you have to take some tumblr dub con...

But first:

Seme uke when it specifically conflates seme with "the man" and uke with "the girl" is old fashioned, anti-feminist, and anti-queer. Here's some of where I talk about it, but I talk about it a lot. Too much, some might say.

Pharm is a blushing maiden archetype character, I talk about it and what that means here:

It's sex negative. And a lot of it stems from internalized misogyny and ties to something called benevolent sexism. It's pretty rampant in BL.

Yes I think Pharm's behavior can be perceived as traumatized, but that trauma is brought about by In's past actions and the fact that In was punished (BY THE NARRATIVE) not just for being gay but for being a self-actualized pro-sex uke character.

There is a distinction being made between critical discourse over narrative versus how the characters behavior makes an audience feel (within the immersive experience of the drama). Some viewers care about this distinction, others do not.

I very much get why someone might like TharnType (I did) but actually also, you might want to think about why you like it despite the messages the narrative is sending... You might want to think about not just the characters in their little perfect romance world together, but consider if you were in the position of either of those characters how you would feel or behave.

And NOW the Dub Con Portion of tonight's BL party

Okay I was trying to be my usual semiseme-welcoming snark self but ya know what, let's be VERY FUCKING CLEAR HERE because I am jet lagged and tetchy....

We (the collective of BL critics here on tumblr) aren't always talking about WHAT is depicted so much as HOW it's depicted, and whether that HOW allows the WHAT to skate by without encouraging the audience to reflect on the damage the WHAT does to their own perception of what is romantic. Or what is queer. Or what is morally acceptable for decent human interaction.

Like thinking, for example, that it's okay for Tharn to RAPE Type while he is drunk.

Why on earth is that okay? It's NOT OKAY. It's just NOT!!!!

Did Type ask for it?

Did he dress too sexy?

Was his skirt too short?

Was he too much of a jerk?

Did he want it anyway?

Did he not protest enough?

Did he protest too much?

You gonna make that call for him, are you? You read his mind (apparently the way Tharn can?)

But SERIOUSLY.

What if you were actually in Type's position? Roommates with someone you didn't like who molested you when you were drunk. At home. In your own bed. What if that roommate didn't look like Tharn? What if your roommate were the wrong gender or body type or age or familial relationship (!) for your preferences? How would you actually feel?

Because if you're okay with this, really okay for yourself, you have a strong kink and you need to seek out the appropriate community or you are signing up for a very abusive relationship and likely an early death.

Can't put yourself in Type's shoes/bed?

How about Tharn?

Are you the kind of human who would molest a drunk person just because you desired him? Her?

Because they're homophobic and you want to punish them with your queerness?

Because they were a jerk to you?

You always get back at people by raping them?

You an old white dude putting your hand down secretary's shirts because they're just "too cute to resist"?

Why should you have to resist taking what you want? Who cares that there is a whole other human involved?

Grabbing ladies by the pussy any chance you get and bragging about it, are ya? Or is it somehow different or less damaging because TT is dude on dude?

So, are you gonna justify taking what you want and violating another person because they're the same sex?

Now who's being "gay for you"? This is going all the way into DL closet case "it doesn't count if it's with a man" territory.

Because if you are any of the above 8, please block me right tf now. (And... do I have a world leader to recommend for YOU to get into a car with.)

GAH!

Fucking TharnType.

Anygay...

I talk about dub con here:

My initial post about TharnType is here, but more recently here's us having a whole ThanType discourse unpacking Mame among other things as part of the BL movement both as a genre and as a fandom:

and here's an important article on rape culture in Thailand

Gay for you talked about here:

Wife language talked about here:

I'm gonna go watch some BL trash that, hopefully, doesn't have any rape in it. (You never know tho...)

Fuck me (consensually) I am so tired.

I'd drink but I did too much of that already this week.

Maybe I need to eat something.

Don't troll m,e just block me.

For heaven's sake please.

(source)

[ishouldgetadiary]

there are definitely cleverer people to discuss this at length than me and there are probably people who already have and come to the same or better conclusions, but i do just want to say that an aspect of kim kitsuragi i can't get over is his disconnect from being seolite (outside of the racism). i don't know, it's very important to have asian characters with strong cultural ties who have that culture accurately expressed through their character/stories and i do love those characters, but it's somewhat rarer to see the alternative (at least, when race and culture is acknowledged at all), let alone it being a point of pride for them, the same way it is for kim. all of this to say, i feel haunted by what he says when you ask him about his heritage.

i didnt ask him about it on my first run (because i found the way the question is initially asked to be kinda rude and i was afraid of if it'd make him like me less, lol) but i did in my current replay and the way he dances around the topic, 'i'm half seolite, well technically, my parents were both quarter, i guess you could also say im quarter, i don't know the language or culture and i've only lived in revachol', it fucks me up so bad! first is how you can tell it's mostly a defensive tactic for him, at least when he starts the rant— somebody asks about the race thing? deflect. i'm only half. i don't even know the language. i'm not one of those seolites. second is how he loosens into pride when he realises/remembers that harry isn't asking to be racist, he is genuinely having trouble remembering that the concept of race exists, but also because it lets kim kinda show that it is something to be prideful about in revachol.

dont get me wrong— i think kim kitsuragi is genuinely proud of being as revacholian as anyone else. he loves revachol. i dont think he’d go along with harry so easily on random side quests or have opinions on if harry helps or hinders the people of martinaise if he actually didnt care. i dont even know he’d still be a cop or (more accurately) be one for as long as he has been, especially when he’s spent most of it as a juvie officer, if he didnt believe in revachol. it’s people, what it is, and what the country could be. people like to take his position as a police officer as just his way of feeling a sense of power in a post revolutionary (khm. and racist) world that has never had the space for him or his dreams, but kim is more three dimensional than that. ESPECIALLY when there are ways that being a cop gives him less power than regular citizens in revachol. he likes, wants, and believes in both, and that’s not necessarily hypocritical. in the same way, i dont think it’s at all hypocritical that his pride is rooted in both his love for revachol AND the way white supremacy has impacted him. because yk, when he’s proud about his lack of connection to his heritage, it’s not just his love for revachol speaking, it’s also the disdain that we, the player, hear for seolite people (at least what we hear from or related to kim).

that all being said, i dont consider that to be a terribly complex thought at all— real life people are complicated and multifaceted, so kim kitsuragi is written to also be complicated and multifaceted. in disco elysium, the writers are never worried about presenting the world in a better or worse way than it already is. yes, it is definitely a heightened version of our reality, but it also presents everything as direct as possible. case example would be the racist lorry driver in what he says versus how he’s presented. in that very first interaction when kim confronts him and harry catches up on what just happened, he denies and hides in the same way a lot of people deny and hide that they are being racist, but you, the player, cannot avoid or pretend he isnt being racist, because it is literally in his name. you are not given the grace of real life where there is the option of either the benefit of the doubt or genuinely questioning your own assessment. despite all of that, ultimately, it is still haunting for that early kim question to be so reminiscent of what i see in real life.

in the example of a shorter ramble, kim's own ramble weirdly reminds me of myself, but in the opposite direction. i very easily and quickly tumble into word vomit and over-detail my heritage just to make it make sense that my name isnt white. and i'm not gonna boohoo over my own personal situation at all when i know i benefit from white supremacy, but i hate that ultimately, white supremacy ‘won’ when it comes to 'me'. because just like kim kitsuragi, i don't know a language that isn't english, i dont know a different culture, and i've only lived in my predominantly white country.

but a more apt comparison is my own father. a man who’s internalised shame cant even allow him to comprehend why somebody white would want a tan, because he’s always been at least a little tan, and that’s part of what ‘clocks’ him as not fully white, who does try to connect with his mother’s culture, but just kind of ended up with only odd bits and pieces of it and the language, because it was something that would’ve just made life harder than it should be, and despite everything, he’ll still do things like dunk on chinese people. there may be more to say, but you get the gist. and yet somehow none of it has quite reaches the point where he can recognise it in himself. because he knows racism and white supremacy is bad and he’s obviously against it, but it is hard to acknowledge that it is greater than just the lorry drivers and measureheads of the world. because we live with the consequences and the rot of white supremacy within us. assimilation has done it's job to it's logical conclusion.

… and yet it is a limbo, and a hollow one at that. regardless of how white i am, i still dont fully relate to my fully white peers, because there are ways in which i dont share in their accepted shared experiences. my father has never felt accepted in either club, ‘too japanese for white australians and too australian for japanese people’ (can you believe that disco elysium was almost banned from my country)! our fully white peers will never know what it’s like to be able to look at the face of a complete stranger of a different race and see family. to see their aunts, or grandparents, or parents.

but kim kitsuragi talks of that limbo with pride. he may never feel a true sense of community with either white people or other seolites, and this is something his brain seems to choose not to fully acknowledge, even though he definitely feels it. and really, it’s haunting in the same way i find both my father’s and my involvement in society disconcerting. the truth that, in spite of where white supremacy and assimilation can get you, you will never truly achieve the community or peace of mind there is in ignorance.

despite all that, on a brighter note, i do think that in terms of what kim truly likes harry for and what gains his trust in him is the choice for harry to be that sense of community he needs. (if i am remembering right) kim will only really trust you if you chose to defend him from the several racists you’ll encounter and make jokes at their expense with him, because it’s highly HIGHLY unlikely that barely anybody goes through that effort for him. even when it’s pretty clear that the writers were going for humorous ‘haha, white guy trying his best to be an ally’ dialogue choices, kim himself doesnt really show that he finds it obnoxious or unwanted, it’s genuinely something he would rarely get other rcm members even though that is the community he’s definitely and wholly part of.

anyways i have no idea if this post made any sense or if im really wrong (i could be!) because it came from a more personal place than maybe typical character analysis but whatever

[butts-bouncing-on-the-beltway]

re: The ASL post

Surely I can't be the only one questioning the premise that if you shut down in one language, you shut down in all of them, equally?

Selective mutism is a whole Thing that exists. There's speech loss where you can somehow take a business call, but can't otherwise converse or ask for help or articulate anything outside of that specific compartmentalized embodiment. There's speech loss where echolalia is still possible. There's dissociation and compartmentalization and codeswitching which allow people to superficially bypass their own brain's shutdowns to produce the results they need.

And then there's the fact that different languages can mean different brainspaces! Thinking in and expressing yourself in language A versus language B can be sooo so so so so different in terms of emotional processing, sensory experience, gender realization, logic formation, etc, and that's even without getting into the root cultural differences. You can be groggy and overstimulated and find solace in a languagespace where you have more resilience, and it does not have to be a regression to a native tongue!

And that's staying within the same language modality! Once you change that, it's extremely possible that triggering conditions like fatigue/exhaustion/overstimulation can be relieved. How many writers have been utter wrecks in crisis while churning out beautifully written works in their non-native language? If a Deaf person has speech loss but can write in legible English during the event, is that marked as physically impossible with the same level of scrutiny?

Meanwhile, my experience with using ASL as someone who was already multilingual (including natively multilingual) before that is that the non-manual markers of the language are so embodied and so different from my natural performance state that of course it requires a different kind of brainspace, it's practically a form of masking except that it relieves the pressure of the other masking (tone, volume, pace, vocabulary, presque vu, cluttering, pitch, and then all those things but with stealth trans gender anxiety).

Also when someone is in crisis, why is it necessary for them to communicate with perfect grammar? What hill even is this?

(In addition, I resent the idea that it's impossible to have intuitive fluency in a language just because you didn't start it as a baby. And the idea that struggling with one parameter of a language will render native users utterly incapable of comprehending you... which is to not even touch the ways in which parameter prescriptivism hurts tactile sign users--*immediately falls through a trap door triggered by the anti-intersectionality police*)

As always, friendo, you speak mine own thoughts to the core, lol

I didn't really feel like getting into every concern I had with the way that post was presenting its conclusions, because I had already written several paragraphs and that felt.....unhelpful at best.

But yeah, I mean. I am not aware of ANY psychological research whatsoever that supports the assumptions they were making about speech/communication loss as an experience, about the way the brain interacts with language, and about the role of learning new languages. It sounded like a LOT of misunderstood moral/ethical arguments being made after hearing someone talk about a small piece of the complexity of Deaf/HoH language/communication sharing with other communities, that they didn't fully know how to apply because they don't actually know anything about the neuroscience of the situation.

Which like. Fine I guess. But that was sort of why I pushed back. I really appreciated the point that sign isn't AAC! I would really like to see that acknowledged more in the way speech/communication disorder folks talk about our interactions with it! And it worried me that the point didn't ACTUALLY seem to be "these things are different so here's the strengths and challenges of each/the outcomes one may hope for with each, so you can better understand how to utilize them" but rather "If you can't be confident that you have fully unlearned your prejudices and assumptions here, you're actually harming Deaf/HoH people by trying to learn our language." That doesn't make sense to me. And when the response was to completely misrepresent my words and ignore my explicitly coming from an intracommunal perspective while literally refusing to actually interact with what was said? That made me feel really uneasy about where that arguement actually was coming from.

One of the things I didn't talk about in the post is that my languages actually get employed in a clear and consistent order as my cognitive functioning decomps. I am "functional" if I can speak and/or write in English. I am "impaired" If I cannot use English, but CAN use Spanish. And I am fully "adrift" if all I can do is sign/use assistive gestures. Literally, what language I am using to communicate is almost always in indicator of my state of mind, to the point that long before I had language for any of this, I warned Wifey ahead of time when we first started dating that I might lapse into Spanish under certain circumstances, and they would need to tell me if they didn't understand because I prolly wouldn't notice. Despite being my "first language" English is genuinely the hardest for me to interact with. This remains true as I learn more languages (German is easier than English too, as is Italian, and even Russian.) English is - by literally every measure - a hot mess of a language. And it is actually really fucking common for even native speakers to find other languages more intuitive.

Why would that suddenly stop being true because your cognition is failing? Yeah, you won't have **the same access** bit you were never going to anyway???? And "more access than zero" is literally invaluable????

I dunno. I know it's poor behavior to get frustrated at people speaking with authority while repeating objective untruths in something I have actual expertise in, but there IS kinda a certain point when I have to wonder why people immediately internalize the stuff they see on tumblr without actually exploring the work of people who pioneered the research someone is attempting to convey? Why are yall happy NEVER interacting with a primary source?

And literally? Don't tell me "well we don't have any intracommunal research!!! Because that hasn't been true in any significant field of study for a decade now. Limited? Sure. Explorations of genuine intracommunal priorities in their infancy? Absolutely. But at this point if we are 30yrs into "nothing for us without us" without being able to recognize that intracommunal knowledge generation has ALWAYS happened, and the problem was not an absence but an obfuscation?

We probably have bigger problems at that point honestly.

[stitching-in-time]

Voyager rewatch s4 ep9: Year of Hell pt 2

I definitely haven't seen this one since it first aired, because the only things I remember from it were Janeway and Tuvok hugging, and the ship crashing. Literally everything else in this was like new to me, which was completely wild to experience after more than two decades.

Why I didn't rewatch it again in all this time, I don't know- I remember thinking 'ugh' whenever I'd see it on a rerun and flip channels, but it's actually a lot better than I gave it credit for??? Maybe as a kid all the sad, scary stuff the crew goes through just made more of a negative impression on me, and I know I would have been very worried that somebody would get killed off back then. I had a deeper attachment to Star Trek characters than any other shows I watched, so the stakes always felt a little bit higher in Star Trek, versus other shows I didn't care about as much.

But anyway, I was clearly way too young to realize how hot the whole crew was yet, because I didn't remember the part where Chakotay and Tom are aboard the Krenim timeship at all. And oh boy, watching it as an adult? with Tom in that costume with that v-neck top? Incredibly distracting. Like, excuse me sir, how dare you be that pretty?? All tall and blonde and blue eyed with your tousled hair and your unbuttoned shirt?? Illegal levels of hotness!!! go to jail for 1000 years!!!

But aside from making my fangirl brain go brrrr every time Tom appears on screen, I do think the scenes on the ship with the Krenim bad guy, Annorax, were very interesting and well done. We learn that Chakotay and Tom have been held captive there, in solitary confinement, for two months, before Annorax decides to let them out. He brings them to have dinner with him in an attempt to convince them to work with him to help him get his timeline back, and restore Voyager in the process. Tom is pissed off and skeptical, but Chakotay plays it more diplomatically, and tries to hear Annorax out. Annorax does a convincing job of presenting himself as cultured and reasonable, until he tells them that the little feast he's treating them to is actually a macabre repast made up of the last existing delicacies from civilizations he's erased from existence. He tells them how he's been manipulating the timeline with the time weapon on his ship for 200 years, existing outside of normal time, trying to get the calculations right to bring the entire Krenim empire back, like some sort of Flying Dutchman in space. Chakotay and Tom are horrified, and Tom won't hear of helping him, guessing that the only reason Annorax is asking them is because he hasn't been able to find and destroy Voyager yet. He storms out, but Chakotay stays, hoping there might be a way to use the time weapon in a less violent way to accomplish what Annorax proposed.

Meanwhile, back on Voyager, the seven remaining crew members are fighting tooth and claw to keep the ship together, hiding in a nebula to avoid the Krenim and try to repair their failing systems. Janeway, as usual, powers through it all by throwing herself into work, rarely eating or sleeping, risking her life time and again, and ignoring doctor's orders to rest when she gets sick or injured. (She has a rare moment of sentiment when she finds the watch Chakotay gave her still in his quarters, despite her order to recycle it. She doesn't know of he's alive or dead at this point, so she's too moved to be angry, and she picks it up, and puts it on her belt, like a good luck charm.) The Doctor tries to relieve her of command when he thinks she's pushing herself too far, but Janeway hits him with the reality that she can just say no- they have no security officers, they have no brig, no energy for more forcefields- he can't enforce any orders on anyone. He tells her he'll record her refusal in his log, and that she could face a court-martial for disobeying, to which she responds with a wry smile that they'd have to get home before she could ever face a court martial, and she's the one who's going to get them home, by continuing to work. Even making it out alive to face a court martial would be nice for her, compared to what they're going through. She walks off, leaving the Doctor to contemplate his abstract principles, while she, as always, is forced by necessity to do the real, hard work to hold things together and shoulder the responsibilty for the ship and crew, alone.

Back on the Krenim ship, Chakotay works with Annorax to learn how to use his time weapon, and Tom buddies up to the crew, trying to gather what info he can from them that might be useful against Annorax. He tells Chakotay the crew are unhappy in their endless mission, and that they could be convinced to mutiny against Annorax with their help. Chakotay says no, and wants to try to use the time weapon, which Tom disagrees with, and they come pretty close to having a fistfight over it, since Tom (rightly) thinks Annorax is a maniac, and that Chakotay has been swayed over to Annorax's side. Whether Chakotay actually has been swayed or not is kind of open to interpretation- Annorax certainly was giving him a lot of seductive speeches about what an art form the manipulation of time can be, and Chakotay seems to earnestly believe he can find a way to use it for good. And if he was actually just playing a long game, and trying to earn Annorax's trust so they can get the better of him, he absolutely should have told that to Tom, rather than letting him think he's sympathizing with the enemy, and thus giving him a good reason to not follow his orders. At any rate, Chakotay seems to finally realize that Annorax is a madman who can't be reasoned with once he learns that his centuries of meddling with the timeline stem from accidentally erasing his own family in one of his attacks, and that everything he's been doing has been a desperate attempt to get them back. They watch in horror as he uses the time weapon to erase an entire planet, and Tom finally convinces Chakotay to go with his plan. Tom gets his Krenim friend to let him send a message to Voyager, and to help them shut down the time weapon so Voyager can attack.

By the time Voyager receives Tom's message, Janeway has assembled a small fleet of allies to stand against the Krenim- Voyager is nearly crippled, so she sends the rest of the crew to the alien ships, and stays behind on Voyager to coordinate the attack that now has a fighting chance, thanks to Tom's help. This is the scene I always remember, of Tuvok attempting to convince Janeway not to stay on a compromised Voyager to die. But Janeway waxes poetic about how a captain always goes down with the ship, and how Voyager is more than just a ship, it's their home, a part of their family that she can't abandon. Tuvok knows her too well to argue, so he gives her a Vulcan salute, and accepts a hug from her in return. Her face as he returns her embrace for one rare and probably final time, when she almost breaks down as she says goodbye to him, only to snap herself back to composure, to send him away in order to do what she has to do, is an absolutely devastating moment, and an incredibly subtle piece of acting from Kate Mulgrew.

Even standing alone on her wrecked ship, battered and filthy, with Chakotay's watch tucked into her belt, Janeway still exudes the air of a Captain, and leads the charge to the Krenim ship. (Which looks so much like Babylon 5! I honestly have to wonder whether it was intentional- I can't imagine anyone working on Star Trek wouldn't have been aware of that show, or what their space station looked like. Though whether it was a nod to them or a dig at them, I don't know.)

As soon as Annorax sees Voyager, he wants to destroy it, but his second in command holds fire long enough for Tom to take the time weapon offline. Even with regular weapons, Voyager is too damaged to fight back, so Janeway decides if she's going down, she'll take them with her. Only Kate Mulgrew could sell that incredibly cheesy 'time's up' line with so much conviction that I buy it completely. I get why her whole crew would die for her- I would die for her too. If you watch this show and still say you wouldn't die for her, you're lying. Janeway supremacy forever <3

Somehow, Janeway figures that taking out the timeship might reset the timeline, so she has her ships disengage their temporal shielding and rams Voyager into the Krenim ship, destoying them both.

And the timeline resets!! How? I have no idea! How did she know that would happen? I also have no idea! Would it have been nice if that theory were introduced into the script earlier, and played with a bit more so it didn't seem like a crazy last minute add-on that was too convenient to be true? Yeah! Am I mad enough about it that I'm gonna complain about it too much? No! Do I just enjoy the badass ferocity of Janeway ramming her ship into a bad guy's ship to save millions of lives, even if she has to risk her own to do it? HELL YEAH!!!

So we end up back on Voyager before the Year of Hell began- everything is pristine and lovely, and the crew is looking forward to their little opening celebration for the new astrometrics lab. A Krenim hails them, gives them a friendly warning that their territory is in dispute, and recommends going around their space for safety. Janeway thanks him, and sets a course to avoid their space. They go on their merry way, never knowing the year they endured in another timeline.

And the last scene is of Annorax, back at home, with his wife, going over his time manipulation research, and ignoring her until she insists the research can wait, and that he should have breakfast with her. He agrees, but his research is still there, and it's a chilling thought that without knowing the 200 years he spent trying to fix his mistake, he might make it all over again one day. (But seriously, in 200 years, he didn't figure out that blowing his ship up would reset the timeline and bring his wife back?! Like that's literally all he had to do?! But Janeway guessed that correctly in one split second hunch?! Not the best writing in the world, but hell, I'll give it a pass because Janeway badassery! I love you, my captain!!! No thoughts, just Janeway!!!)

Tl;dr: The ending wasn't as strong as the beginning, but it was an exciting ride, with some really fine moments. I won't be waiting another 20 some years to rewatch this again, I can tell you that!

[peppertaemint]

The other day, an Anon for @reflections-in-a-critical-eye asked about SHINee 2Min lore, and Anon was referred here for further info, lol. Well, I'm not sure there is lore per se, but I can give a mini rear-view mirror take on 2Min.

Spoiler: here's 2023 Minho staring at Taemin.

The early years give a beautiful vibe of dongsaeng/hyung puppy love. They're just absolutely adorable. Minho is Taemin's closest hyung in age, and Minho has mentioned that until Taemin showed up, he was the baby.

Shippers call this moment c. 2010 the "Koala Hug." 2Min were celebrating Minho doing an extreme vaulting challenge. Yes, you read that right.

However, that vibe eventually gets tinged by SM playing with Taemin's gender presentation.

When Taemin is given extensions and suddenly bombarded with men telling him he looks like a woman etc, Minho is one of the people to confidently say that Taemin is "pretty to begin with" so there is nothing to be done about it. I always read that as him almost being prideful over it; Minho definitely likes the idea of Taemin being prettier than girl groups or his work beating out that of girl groups (read into that how you want, lol), but I think he liked Taemin exactly how he was from the get go, which is cry-inducing really.

Here's Taemin wearing Minho's father's scarf c. 2012. Okay, I guess that's pretty "lore" -ish.

If you were to go back and look at shipper blogs and live journals from 2013/2014, you would see some 2Min fans getting upset that their ship has sunk. There was this idea that when Taemin became an adult, he put away childish things (and non cis-het things) and that included Minho (lol). Many perceived Taemin had switched to a more manly look/concept, and/or that he really wanted to shed his gender neutral or ambiguous traits/looks.

Dream Girl was uh, really something.

It's true that in 2013, we see a more boyish Taemin versus Sherlock Taemin. He's also older and filling out and indeed, becoming a young adult. Interestingly, he does We Got Married (let's not go there) and goes on to start his solo career in 2014.

But I think what this "lore," or shipper narrative, reveals is how easy it was for shippers to slot 2Min into a sailing ship because they perceived Taemin to be more feminine to Minho's masculine, thus upholding heteronormative ideas of romance even in a supposedly gay "couple" - a common trait of same-sex shipping that although nuanced by certain cultural factors is still often a staple of same-sex shipping and related fanworks.

Fast-forwarding to mid-2018, we have a clingy if uneven 2Min. By the end of 2019, we have a somewhat wistful 2Min who like to attend each other's events and make grand gestures in front of the crowd.

In late 2020, we have Minho driving for hours on the day of his discharge, in uniform, to head directly to Taemin's taping for Idea at one of the TV networks in Korea. The rest of SHINee are there, and they treat us to an IG live of their reunion. 2Min are cute and a little cuddly - it's clear they missed one another. 🥹

2018 2Min have great hair colors.

What were 2021 2Min like? Friendly, feisty, and in the end, a little romantic/bromantic (pick your poison). 2Min fighting or annoying one another happened, but by the time Taemin enlisted, it was clear Minho was an emotional rock for him to some degree. And when Taemin was unwell, it was Minho who spoke to us first and then began updating us at the 14th anniversary party, with Key and Onew also speaking.

2021 2Min was also this level crazy

So, we reach the present. What are 2Min's vibes these days?

A little hands-on. Rather comfortable. Even Steven. Affectionate.

They're getting along so famously everyone is noticing.

And they're just very very cute.

There's so much more I could say, but I hope this is a good welcome aboard the good ship 2Min. The ship has strong winds and calm waters after 15+ years at sea.😌

[russanogreenstripe]

I've been playing Owlcat's adaptation of Pathfinder: Kingmaker and have some thoughts

There's a choices they made when designing their game that I think are really interesting from a design perspective, even if I don't fully understand or even agree with them in all cases, but they are useful intellectual exercises. Perhaps the most interesting to me is how they handle Neutral alignments.

I'm going to assume most people finding this know about the 3x3 Alignment grid used in Dungeons and Dragons and other games descended from it, including the 1e version of Pathfinder that the video game is based on. The classic Lawful vs Chaotic and Good vs Evil. Countless gallons of ink and terabytes of text have been spilled over this very basic system, but it's usually the ends of those axes that get the attention. Neutral rarely gets as much detail or analysis about it compared to Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, and it's usually in one of three modes. If I had to come up with names or descriptors for them, I'd go with something like Unaligned, Not Opted In, and Balance, and versions of these exist for both axes. Unaligned is when these opposing forces don't register for you at all, usually due to a lack of cognitive capability. Simple constructs, plants, and animals often fall in the Unaligned category, and I've heard this approach to Neutral basically described as "Neutral Hungry" - what does a bear think about moral debates? It doesn't, it only cares about whether it's hungry or not. Most people don't expect complex philosophical thinking out of a pitcher plant. Not Opted In is when a person has enough cognitive capacity that they could make principled decisions regarding the two axes, but for whatever reason simply don't or haven't. Most people aren't saints or devils, paragons or chameleons. They're just... normal. They're not concerned with cosmic struggles for Freedom versus Order, or pledged to uphold the tenets of Kindness or the debasements of Sin. They just kinda go about doing their thing without needing a big picture. When they make decisions, alignment isn't their primary factor - other things like practicality, culture, needs, and other mundane forces are more important to them. Balance is when a person does have cognitive capacity to recognize these dynamics, and intentionally chooses none of them. This is the classic Druid alignment, the middle way between the extremes. It is a choice and a firm principle, but not in a Lawful or Chaotic way, but in a way that is simultaneously both and neither.

There are certain universal dialogue options in Kingmaker that are tagged with alignments. Any character can choose those options, and doing so will shift your alignment meter towards that alignment very slightly. Then there are some that are tagged with "Requires Good/Evil/Law/Chaos/Neutral" - for those ones, only characters who have that alignment can select it, and also gives a bump towards that alignment. Pretty straightforward, and a fairly representative way to handle these systems in a rigid video game. The universal Neutral options (whether that's True Neutral, Neutral Good, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Neutral, or Lawful Neutral) tend to be somewhere around Unaligned or Not Opted In. Where things get interesting is when we look at the "Requires Neutral" options - all the examples I can think of are written intentionally from a Balance perspective. They come up when two independent groups or forces are in opposition, and these options allow you to either choose no side, or choose BOTH sides as a mediator. And when you choose those options, there truly is an opportunity for reconciliation that prevents otherwise inevitable division and even bloodshed. If you asked me out of the blue "Hey, where on the alignment grid do you find brokering a peace agreement between two opposed factions that stops a civil war?" I'd probably guess either Good or Lawful. Owlcat Games says, "No, that's True Neutral." And the opposing forces don't need to be different halves of an alignment axis - there's a section early on where the only way to not take a side between two Lawful Evil groups and prevent escalation to full-blown conflict is to take an option that Requires Neutral. There's scenarios later that let you act a mediator between two very different people, and two opposed nations, and if you want to truly be able to bring both sides to the table in those scenarios, you have to be Neutral. Even if your intended outcomes are things like "Foster understanding" or "Avert a civil war," things I would categorize as Good, the game makes them Neutral. My current playthrough is mostly Chaotic Good, and I've been pretty satisfied with those options. But when there is deep, deep opposition between two groups in the Stolen Lands, Good won't always bridge a gap between them, but Neutral can. This makes Neutral options an actual Choice instead of just the thing you pick when there's not a Good/Lawful/Chaotic/Evil option - it is a principled position on its own, just as nuanced and effective as the extremes of the chart, and not just the weird ugly grey color in the middle of the alignment chart, and I think that's neat. That's different than the way I thought about it before, and that's cool to analyze.

[this-acuteneurosis]

I kind of want to get you started on mind tricks. cause like weak minded to strong minded dynamic and the blur away, but also the sith back in the day were for SURE a Caste system of force sensitive rulers and non force sensitives, and the jedi were their ENEMY off and on for thousands of years, cultural bleed through and dynamics of their own power systems but Ben we are not the droids you are looking for go away so I dont have to kill you, versus Qui hey I want this thing trade it for me.

Alright, Oct anon, it's been a while, but I have not forgotten you definitely forgot this ask in my drafts for who even knows how many months but it's found again, whoo!

It's taken me a while to get this together partly to try and arrange my thoughts in a logical order but also...

Guys, I really, really care about the use of agency in stories. Like, I've ranted about it in relation to droids, I've explained some of my problems with it in the context of the thematic changes between the OT and the PT, I stew over it constantly in my brain, it's a central theme of many of my own stories (including DLB).

I really don't like mind control, and not just in Star Wars.

Now, just because I don't like a thing doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in story telling. As a device, mind control/manipulation can be useful or important to a plot. To a theme. Overcoming it can be powerful or cool (Ella Enchanted-I prefer the novel personally, Tanjiro in Demon Slayer: Mugen Train), watching someone succumb to it can be agonizing (Frodo in Return of the King, anyone? Princess Euphemia in Code Geass?).

So, what is the point of Mind Tricks (and that naming choice, "trick," making it sound almost...harmless) in the Star Wars story, and maybe in the universe?

I feel like in its initial reveal, the mind trick was supposed to a) convey how "magical" Jedi were and b) get the plot from point A to B. Obi-Wan waves his hand, someone believes something hideously untrue, move along move along, don't think about it too hard.

Like, literally, audience, please. Don't.

Luke uses it in RotJ for pretty much the same reason. To convery a) Luke is well on his way to being a "magical" Jedi now (oh but wait, there's more character growth he needs!), and b) Luke needs to get into Jabba's palace and why would they let him in? Because he says so, so we will take him to Jabba now. Move along, move along.

I don't like the implications of this power existing, and as an adult who has been in situation where I have to report to higher powers, the disregard of the consequences of these things are a bit darker if I look too closely, but like...move along, I guess. It's fine as long as we're only using these powers on space nazis and slavers. Right?

Except then we get more movies. And cartoons. It's fine if Obi-Wan mind controls a person into not smoking, right? Smoking is Bad and Obi-Wan is Good.

Only.

Only...

Who taught Obi-Wan to use mind tricks?

Ah yes, my old nemesis.

To all you Qui-Gon fans out there, you may wanna leave. This analysis is probably not for you.

So like, Qui-Gon Jinn. Qui-Gon "I'm friends with the current Chancellor and thus an obvious, notable representative of the Jedi Order but I don't get along with my higher ups" Jinn. The thing you have to understand about my opinion of him is that, as a young, first time watcher of TPM, I liked him. He was funny, irreverent, direct. He was wise, or at least seemed to know things no one else did. He was a maverick, ready to go against all orders and advice for what he knew was right. And everyone around him was just stuffy and uninformed.

And to be fair, he wasn't wrong about everything. He's set up to be sympathetic. He's trying to treat with the gungans and they won't listen? Well he and Obi-Wan are right, the Trade Federation does go for the gungans. The Order says there are no Sith? Oops, wrong on that one. The Council makes the ambiguous assertion Anakin is "too old" to train. We've seen the OT. We know "too old" is nonsense.

But like, what does Qui-Gon do when he's thwarted?

He takes away people's agency.

Oh, you don't want to help us, Boss Nass, political leader? Cool, well I'm gonna undermine you in front of your entire court and you're gonna give us a whole ship (that we won't return) to help us defend a people you've been in an active war with for centuries. Oh, my currency doesn't work on this planet? I think it will mister small time junk dealer with a gambling problem (jokes on you for that one, sir).

This to me is a huge red flag in a story that is about literal slaves. I know people will defend the above examples. It was necessary. There were lives at stake.

You wanna know who would have suffered if Qui-Gon had been able to con Watto out of that part?

Anakin and Shmi.

Worthless (or event mostly worthless) currency on a planet where you have to buy water is literal death under the right circumstances. And who do you think Watto's going to reduce rations on. He's got cash flow problems? What's the quickest way for him to make back what he just lost? I'll give you a hint, he gambles on them later in the exact same movie.

So like, well before we get to "weak minded" or anything dubious like that, there's this awkward question of, "Why are the good guys always using powers to make people do things? And not worried about the consequences?"

And like, if we go back to simple story narratives, and trying to move things from point A to point B, that's fine I guess. I enjoy the OT. I'll move along.

But if you ask me to stop and think about it.

Well...

[dialovers-translations]

DIABOLIK LOVERS VERSUS SONG Bloody Night Vol.Ⅰ  Mini Drama “Ayato VS Subaru”

Original title: 録り下ろしミニドラマ「アヤトＶＳスバル」

Source: Diabolik Lovers VERSUS SONG Bloody Night Vol. I Mini Drama

Audio: Here

Seiyuu: Midorikawa Hikaru & Takashi Kondou

Translator’s note: I honestly can’t help but get some sort of ‘reverse culture shock’ whenever I go back to one of the earlier drama CD series. :p The boys have been toned down so much in the more recent games and CD series, I’ve honestly forgotten how ruthless they can be. Especially Subaru caught me off guard with some of his statement because he’s just a blushy, tsundere cinnamon roll now lol. I’m not into the super sadistic content, but I can definitely understand why some people are frustrated with the change if they initially got into the franchise for the darker content.

*Rustle rustle*

Subaru: …God. …Stop bein’ so fuckin’ annoyin’...What part of ‘don’t make a fuss’ do you not get!?

You continue to thrash about.

Subaru: I know you’re not exactly the brightest person ‘round, but you should be able to figure out what’ll happen if I let go of you right now, aah!?

You suddenly calm down.

Subaru: I mean…If you want to go for a one-way trip down there, I won’t stop you. I guess it could be kind of fun to see you land splat against the ground like a rotten tomato. Hehehe…

Your face goes pale.

Subaru: Say, what do you say?

You promise to behave.

Subaru: Hehe, you should have just done so from the very start. You really are a pain in the ass. …Oi, grab onto me a lil’ tighter.

*Rustle*

Subaru: Che…Tighter!

*Rustle*

Subaru: Exactly, just like that. Now your nape is positioned perfectly in front of me. Heh…

He leans in but suddenly comes to a halt.

Subaru: Fuck…This pisses me off…Your skin’s still covered in his marks…

You ask Subaru what he will do about it.

Subaru: Hah…? Don’t be playin’ dumb with me now. I’m obviously gonna do this…!

He bites you.

*Gulp gulp gulp*

*Rustle rustle*

Subaru: ーー Hah! Haah, haah…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: …Hah! Haah…I’ll erase them at once.

*Sluuurp*

Subaru: Mmh…Nn…Hah!

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: Hah…!

You protest.

Subaru: Heh. …And whose fault do you think that is? Haah!? ーー You’re to blame, aren’t you? None of this would have ever happened if you didn’t let Ayato suck your blood without my damn permission!

You frown.

Subaru: So you’re in no position to complain. If you understand that…Shut up and lemme have your blood…

He continues feeding off you.

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: Hah…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: …Hehehe. Writhe in pain even more…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: Hah…

*TIMESKIP*

*Rustle*

Subaru: ーー Woah there! Whatcha trippin’ for? …Come here!

Subaru pulls you close.

Subaru: …That was only the opening act earlier. The main show starts right now.

You flinch.

Subaru: Heh…That look in your eyes…Hehe, are you shitting your pants? …Nah, you’re not. I bet you actually can’t wait for it.

You shake your head.

Subaru: Makes sense, I guess. No way someone who’d let someone mark her from head to toe would be satisfied after just that.

*Rustle*

Subaru: Your wish is my command…So, where do you want it? Your neck? Or perhaps…Somewhere a lil’ lower? …Ughー!

*RIIIIIP*

Subaru: If you won’t give me an answer, I’ll do as I wish. I bet you’re fine with bein’ bitten just ‘bout anywhere, aren’t you? As long as you get to feel good. Right…?

Subaru bites you again.

Subaru: Nnh…

*Gulp gulp*

*Rustle rustle*

Subaru: Mm…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: ー Hah! …Hah…

Ayato: …Look at you latchin’ onto her like a fuckin’ loser! Hahaha! No wonder you get called a kid.

Subaru: …! Ayato! Is that you, you bastard!? Where are you!?

Ayato: …Right here.

Ayato kicks him away.

*THUD*

Subaru: Uwah!

*Thud*

Ayato proceeds to knock him out cold next.

Ayato: There we go, that guy’s not movin’ for a while.

He walks up to you.

Ayato: Yo, Chichinashi. My bad to interrupt while you were havin’ such a good time. Hehehe…

*Rustle*

Ayato: I was watchin’ the whole time. How he was havin’ his way with you. You were makin’ some pretty sweet sounds. Did his fangs really feel that good, huh?

You deny it.

Ayato: Don’t lie to me. It must have been amazin’, no? Otherwise you wouldn’t be able to give such strong reactions. Aah!? ーー Answer me, Chichinashi. Or else I’m gonna strip you bare right here, right now.

You admit to feeling good.

Ayato: Hehehe…Look who’s finally bein’ honest. In that case…

He approaches.

Ayato: ーー It’s time for your punishment.

*RIIIIP*

*Rustle*

Ayato bites you.

Ayato: Mmh…Nn…

*Sluuuurp*

Ayato: Hahn…

*Rustle*

Ayato: Heh…Nice…Cry out even more…Those are the noises I wanted to hear from you.Suits a dumb Chichinashi like you perfectly…Nn…I’ll make sure to teach this body of yours directly…who exactly it belongs to…

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Nnh…

*Rustle*

Ayato: Fuck…! Subaru’s bite marks are a damn eyesore! I swear, Laito is seriously out of his mind to get off on this sorta shit.

You tilt your head to the side.

Ayato: Laito told me to try somethin’ different for once. I decided to roll with his idea ‘cause I hadn’t been feelin’ that thrill as of late, but I don’t know what to do with this frustration.

You seem confused.

Ayato: You know, I tempted Subaru to go after you on purpose.

*Rustle*

Ayato: And then I was supposed to watch him suck your blood. Laito said that sorta thing is hella exciting, but I don’t understand his logic at all. I only feel anger from watchin’ some other dude suck your blood.

Subaru regains consciousness.

Subaru: Ugh…Fuck…Ayato!

Ayato: The baby’s awake? Guess we’ll have to move somewhere else then.

Subaru: You fucker…!

Ayato: Hang on tight, ‘kay?

Subaru: Hold up!

Ayato lifts you into his arms and leaps off into the sky.

*Woosh*

Subaru: Ayatoーー!!

*TIMESKIP*

Ayato lands on the clock tower.

Ayato: …Okay, this’ll do. Chichinashi, don’t move, okay?

You seem terrified.

Ayato: Hehe, how’s the view from up here? Pretty nice, don’t you think? Come on, try lookin’ down. If you were to fall down from here, you’d be dead on the spot.

If I need to switch things up, then this will work just fine. Sucking your blood at a completely different location, savoring its taste as you get worked up.

Your face goes pale.

Ayato: You better cling onto me tight so you don’t fall to your death from getting a lil’ too excited…Do you understand?

You nod.

Ayato: Well then…Let’s continue where we left off…I’ll start by gettin’ rid of that guy’s bite marks.

Ayato bites you again.

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Nnh…Mm…

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Hahn…Mm…

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Nnh…Nn…

*Sluuurp*

*Rustle rustle*

Ayato: …Woah there! That was close…! Didn’t I tell you to keep a tight grip? God…Has your body gone limp from fear?

*Rustle*

Ayato: Nn…Hah…Guess I have no other choice. I’ll use my necktie to tie you to one of the hands of the clock.

*Rustle rustle*

Ayato: There we go. This should do the trick. …Now then, this place is up next…!

*RIIIIP*

Ayato: Hehehe…Your heart’s beating even faster than usual, isn’t it? I bet you’re actually enjoyin’ this quite a bit, aren’t you? You’re such a freak. Hehehe…

He bites you again.

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Hahn…Mmh…

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Nn…

You deny it.

Ayato: Don’t be lyin’ now...I can tell by the look on your face…

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Hahn…Nn…I should have just done this from the very start. There’s plenty of ways to get a kick without havin’ to work up that bratーー

Subaru arrives to the scene.

Subaru: Who are you calling a brat, huh?

Ayato: …!

Subaru: You really fucked with me this time, didn’t you, Ayato? Aah!?

*Thud*

Ayato: Subaru…! The fuck are you doin’...!? Think ‘bout where we are right now!

Subaru: Fuck off! …And you too! Why are you lettin’ that guy have his way with you!?

You insist that there was nothing you could do.

Subaru: Che…He tied you up, huh? Fuckin’ annoyin’...Ugh…

Subaru starts to untie you.

Ayato: Hold up. If you untie her right now, she’s gonna fall straight down, you know?

Subaru: …! …Kuh!

Ayato: She’s a wobblin’ mess thanks to me workin’ my magic on her. I’m way better than you. Hahaha…

Subaru: As if anyone believes the bullshit that comes outta your mouth…

Ayato: Are you stupid? Proves you’re still just a kid. Lemme show you then.

*Rustle*

Ayato bites you in front of Subaru

Ayato: Hahn…Nnh…

*Sluuurp*

Subaru: …Ayato! You bastard…!

Ayato: Nnh…Nn…

*Sluuurp*

Subaru: Damnit…Cut the crap! …Oi! I’m the one you should focus on!

Subaru bites you as well.

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Ayato: Che…Don’t scarf her blood down like that…You can try as hard as you want, you’ll never win from me.

*Sluuurp*

Subaru: Shut up…! Your voice is ruinin’ the moment…! Oi…You should cry out a lil’ more…To overpower his voice…Nnh…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

*Rustle rustle*

Subaru: ーー Hah! Hehe…Exactly…Cry out more…And let the world know…That I’m way better than that jackass…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Ayato: Keh…! Big talk for someone who’s only profittin’ of someone else’s hard work! It’s not your fangs which are pleasin’ her, but mine!

Ayato continues to suck your blood as well.

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Hah…Nnh…

*Rustle*

Subaru: Oi, you. Lean a lil’ closer. Rest your body against me.

*Rustle*

Subaru: …I bet you want me to bury my fangs even deeper into your nape, don’t you?  Nnh…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: Hahー! Hahn…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Ayato: Hahaha…Someone seems a lil’ desperate? Should have expected no less from a lil’ kid.

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: All of your struggles will be in vain though. Doesn't her reaction prove that she likes my fangs better than anyone else’s?  Nnh…Nn…

*Sluuurp*

Ayato: Hah…Check out that dreamy look in her eyes…As if she’s ready to ascend to heaven any second now.

*Gulp gulp*

Subaru: Fuck off…! That’s ‘cause of my fangs!

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: Hah…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Ayato: Say whatever you want. …Come on, Chichinashi. Get a grip!

*Smack*

Ayato: No way this is enough to satisfy you, is it?

Subaru: Exactly…You need to feel me…even deeper…

*Sluuurp*

*Gulp gulp*

Subaru: Hah…Haah…Hehe…Not a bad reaction at all. Sure. I’ll give it to you as much as you want.

*Sluuurp*

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Subaru: Nn…

*Gulp gulp gulp*

Ayato: Hahaha…God, your greed really has no limits, has it? Oh well, whatever. I’ll make an exception for today. …Go ahead and turn into as much of a hot mess as you want, Chichinashi…

Subaru: Hah…Challenge accepted. Come on…Allow my fangs to go even deeper…

Ayato: Hahaha…You better make a clear choice by the end. Okay, Chichinashi?

ーー THE END ーー

[practically-an-x-man]

Talk Shop Tuesday for how you approach doing research? (Be it historical, for representation purposes, etc.)

Thank you so much!!

Talk Shop Tuesday

Ooooh, that's a fantastic question right there! Now I've never been the type to shy away from research, and I definitely found a rhythm during high school and college (I actually took an AP Research class in high school, so if I wasn't good at research before I DEFINITELY was after that class)

When it comes to research for fics, I usually will start by just asking the question plainly on the off-chance someone's asked it before. Sometimes they have and there's a source to be found right off the bat, so it's worth just asking the question with the potential to save a few minutes in the long run.

If that doesn't work, I'll expand the search a little bit - for example, I had to do a bit of research for Jimmy's story in HIYH, so my question of "What attractions already existed in Coney Island in 1915?" (for example) became searches like "Coney Island timeline", "Coney Island photos 1910", "Tunnel of Love history", and other things like that in an attempt to pull together an answer like that.

I definitely still stick to academic-style researching - if I have a direct, reliable source, like a historical society or the Coney Island website itself, I'll stick to that, but when it comes to third-party sources I'll always try to check 3-4 at least to make sure the information is accurate. I'm not making a Works Cited page or an Annotated Bibliography or anything like that, but I do make a solid effort to avoid misinformation if I can.

And of course, sometimes there are just the questions that I can't quite track down, for one reason or another. Maybe it's just too specific of a question, and no research has been done in exactly that venue. Maybe it's too far back in time and there just aren't details available (like when I'm researching certain things about Ancient Egypt for WWFA?). Maybe it's just not a question that there is a solid answer to, something dependent on the circumstance and the individual, and there are too many other factors to know quantifiably.

When that's the case, I will do my best to dig up a little more general information, find related answers, and make my best educated guess. For example, I ran into a lot of this when it came to WWFA?, particularly some of the language, culture, and theology surrounding Kemet. It's fiction and I recognize that, so I knew I could take a few creative liberties when I really needed it, but I tried to be cautious with those liberties since it is still rooted in a real, existing society and culture that deserves respect.

For example, while I do have a source for certain words that we have translated from the Ancient Egyptian language, I have substituted Arabic here or there when I couldn't find an accurate translation - it's the next most closely-related language, so it worked as a substitute if I wasn't able to find exactly the right word. Same story for the other ways Katherine harnesses the magic, or how the gods manifest to her: rooted in research and historical sources as much as possible, but with a careful degree of creative liberties as needed so that the story could retain that energy and life when I was working on limited information.

When it comes to representation in any of my stories, similar story. I do search for information about what life and culture was like during the time, if there were any notable individuals who would have fit a similar niche to the character I'm trying to reflect, but a lot of the time it comes down to how I feel things would fit together in the end (ex. the culture they're raised in versus how the individual person would react as a human being).

And then, of course, there's times when pure research just won't align with the character or their history for other reasons: like how my version of DC's Themyscira is a blend of Greek, Middle Eastern, and North African geography and culture - the mythology is Greco-Roman in nature, like we see in the comics, but I see the geography as more Indo-Mediterranean and the food as a mix between Middle Eastern and Mediterranean flavor profiles. And since it's isolated from the rest of the world, I wanted some of those details to seem a little "behind pace".

Researching those cultures individually does help me put those pieces together, but there are some questions that boil down to how I think it would fit together - what holidays would Eris celebrate? [namely Greco-Roman festivals like Vestalia] How would they tolerate spicy foods? [poorly; Themyscira had spices and seasonings but few that contained capsaicin] How would they react to customs like hair coverings while in certain regions of Earth? [they keep a scarf in their bag to cover their hair if needed; it was ceremonial but not required on Themyscira and they're familiar with the concept]. Some things may reflect one root culture more than another, and some details may not stem directly from any of them because at the end of the day Themyscira is meant to be its own region, but there's a lot of thought that goes into every decision.

Idk, this is getting long. Long story short is: I tend to be pretty thorough about research and I want to get the details right as much as I can, but sometimes the personal details do boil down to some educated guesses or creative liberties.

[fioras-resolve]

So I've been thinking about translating Pokemon to Toki Pona, and the general linguistic nature of the games.

Like, Pokemon X and Y are very strange to tokiponize, even just down to the titles. Because like, those letters are not part of the Toki Pona alphabet. Yet, the letters are core to its box legendaries, Yveltal literally looks like a red Y, and has Y in its name. How do you translate this? Well, you look up the origin of the name and find an article stating they were named after the x and y-axis. It seems weird at first, but it's fully consistent with the legendaries. Xerneas is a soweli, who travels horizontally, while Yveltal is a waso, who travels vertically. Even the akesi Zygarde, representing the z-axis, moves vertically. I think it's fair to say poka and sewi, aside and up, should be the new titles for Pokemon X and Y, maybe sinpin for front instead of poka, but I'm not sure about the legendaries.

As for other Pokemon, well, I'm actually willing to transliterate in certain cases. This one other post I found has Pikachu as "sowelo", roughly translating to "yellow creature." This is like, fair as a choice, but the name Pikachu is a very iconic one, and if somebody were actually playing a tokiponized Pokemon game, they would instantly recognize this yellow creature. Pikasu just seems like the natural fit, considering it hasn't been localized into anything else. Plus, it lets you set up Pikasuli (suli meaning big) as the name for Raichu. But then we get into much thornier territory when we ask that about literally any Pokemon that isn't Pikachu. There are many other Pokemon that have preserved their original name across localizations. Like, all of the various Pika-clones to show up throughout the series, like Pachirisu and Togedemaru, kept their Japanese name in an attempt to capture the same Pikachu spark. Should they have their names tokiponized as Pasilisu and Toketemalu?

I guess this brings us into a deeper question of the distinction between a Pokemon name being the name of an animal, like a pigeon or a mouse, versus the name of a character/mythological figure, like a Phoenix, Tsuchinoko, or Bigfoot. For example, the legendary Lugia is called that in all languages, but its counterpart Ho-oh is named differently in Korean and Chinese to match those cultures' mythological birds. The Treasures of Ruin have Chinese names (despite them being different in both pronunciation and order across different localizations) and the fact the names are in Chinese and they're part of a quartet indicates legendary status. Except in China, where it doesn't, so they added 古, meaning ancient, to the start of each name. So the question for a Tokiponist is, how do you convey a Pokemon's legendary status through naming structure alone? I genuinely don't know, but I have a few ideas. Perhaps adding suli meaning important or majuna meaning ancient (I know majuna isn't in the original Toki Pona book, but it is in the official dictionary) could convey that status handily. Let me know what you think.

Lastly, wordplay! This is a kind of fun with language that should be preserved. Of course I'm going to translate Ekans as Iseka, the word for reptile backwards. Of course Girafarig is gonna be Nenanen, the palindromic version of nena meaning bump, and its evolution Farigiraf as Anenena. You've gotta be able to preserve the silliness too. Anyway I'm bad at coming up with normal creature names so that's gonna be it for me

[cuubism]

If you don't mind me asking - what do you think Dream's attitude/reaction towards Tolkien's works (including the legendarium!) would be? (I'm asking a lot of Sandman bloggers this, because I'm extremely curious regarding your takes on this.)

oh! hang on i gotta brush up on my tolkien because i haven't actually read any of the books since like. 2011.

i guess my main thought would be about how dream missed like, 95% of his work when he was stuck in his Jar. my understanding (read: google search) is that tolkien was building up the mythology for his stories before 1916 (when dream was captured), but most of it was not finished/published until a while after.

(this became an insane and mostly unrelated rant i am so so sorry)

i think a lot about how much of his own... area of work and power dream missed when he was trapped. the 20th century, generally speaking, was a time of rapid growth in storytelling methods and media more generally. dream missed almost all of radio, particularly radio as it became a medium for stories. radio was invented in the late 1890s but didn't see a proper rise into a storytelling medium, rather than mainly a direct communication one, until around the 30s. so dream missed the creation and growth of the first, i guess you would call it, networked storytelling, and technological storytelling, and what was... probably? the biggest return to an auditory type of storytelling since the original oral tradition, folk tales, great epics etc, for radio at its peak of cultural relevance (at least in the US and probably the ""West"" more generally, alas i can't speak as knowledgeably for other parts of the world, obviously plenty of other parts of the world had radio in the early 20th century and onward, but i don't know much about its use as a fictional storytelling medium versus for news and government broadcasts. something to look into! part of why radio became such a medium in the usa was because of our rampant capitalism and commercialism lol, so less capitalistic places might have approached it differently - here, advertisers wanted to figure out a way to monetize radio better, but obviously people aren't going to just listen to hours of ads, so they packaged them around stories, live music performances, and variety shows. that's where soap operas as a form come from -- they were originally sponsored by soap companies! also serials, though of course books have also been serialized in the past. and sponsored radio programs also birthed the sort of episodic comedies that eventually evolved into the half hour TV comedies we know today)

which also means - as a direct result of missing radio, dream also missed the rise of television as a medium - it grew directly out of radio, even the big networks we know today, CBS, NBC, and ABC were originally radio networks. television has ended up being a huge change in visual storytelling, not only in its inception, but especially in its more recent years - it's probably the only long-form audiovisual storytelling medium, which is something that didn't really exist before. huge shift in storytelling possibilities. he also missed the development of comic books, and the internet, and the resulting increased accessibility of art and storytelling to both artists and art lovers. he missed an absolutely huge, HUGE shift in the democratization of art and the ability to share it. and, once again, the development of totally new methods of storytelling in the form of internet video! not to even mention the accessibility of MUSIC, music recording and sharing was still in its infancy when dream was imprisoned and now you can get, and make, and share pretty much any music imaginable! and the new genres! and the intermediality of everything and the cross-cultural awareness!

this is not even getting into the new ease of photography, or film, which was also relatively new in 1916. imagine going into a coma when there were only silent films, and waking up to everyone and their mother making tiktoks. the last film you saw was one of chaplin's or something and then you come back and see interstellar in imax 3d. i think i'd explode. (dream would love film, too, it's very dreamlike)

dream returning to the waking world in 2022 and immediately having the entirety of tiktok beamed directly into his head:

(another thing i think about a lot but won't get into because i'm already rambling - hob witnessing the entire development of accessible writing from the printing press to fucking social media. insanity. i want to pick his brain on it

what pushed hob over the edge, do you think. what's the one thing he saw written online that briefly made him regret ever getting involved in printing at all and wish everyone was illiterate again. it was not porn, btw, mr. monsterfucker gadling can handle anything, ok. no, it was something much worse...)

anyway. rambling over. this is all to say that i am not a tolkien expert and haven't read much of his stuff anywhere recently - though i was quite obsessed with it in middle/high school - so my main thought is in relation to dream getting cut off from all of these great stories. it must have been like, to put it flippantly, your favorite tv show getting cancelled halfway through after a cliffhanger XD. he has all these stories from great storytellers - tolkien included - storytellers who are building their whole own worlds in his realm, storytellers he's nurturing and supporting in his own way - and gets ripped away from them. and when he returns, they're all gone.

here's hoping someone who knows more about tolkien can give you an answer more specifically relevant to that. that's all i got for now 😂

[mask131]

Can I ask this question?

What's the deal with Pére Noel?

Do you any information about him?

I really found very few information about Pere Noel before he was synchronized with Britain's Father Christmas and US' Santa Claus.

Was he just a french version of Father Christmas, focused in adult festivities and merrymaking before becoming a gift-bringer like Santa and St. Nicolas?

Is he today any different from Santa and Father Christmas?

I read that in some parts of France St Nicholas is still the main gift-bringer figure, so I'm confused about the events that led to Pere Noel being a major holiday figure in the French context.

This ask actually needs a very long and complex answer that I will provide below, because the topic of the "Père Noël" is extremely complex...

My guess is that you are referring to the "Père Noël" that appeared in Chris Schweizer's set of "Father Christmas cards" - which appears here if you want the original post, but to clarify I will copy the art below for the sake of the explanation -

This is not the current day "Père Noël". You will NOT see this guy around in the streets today. In modern France, "Père Noël" is the name of the French version of Santa Claus. Or rather, French people call Santa Claus "Père Noël". Current day's Père Noël is just a Santa Claus copypaste. Now, "Père Noël" literaly means "Father Christmas" in French, so one would expect him to be much closer to the British Father Christmas... But yes and no. Yes because it is another incarnation of Father Christmas that predated the American Santa Claus, but no because the French Père Noël has a different (though similar) iconography than the British Father Christmas.

Overall, if you recall my previous post, it is the same thing as with the "proto-Santa Claus/Kris Kringle" of 19th America (mischievious elf-like figure wrapped in brown furs) versus the 20th century American Santa Claus (jolly old man in red and white). "Père Noël" was the figure that was the placeholder of the gift-giver before the arrival of the American Santa Claus in the post WWII world (as with all things American in France, it was imported by the Americans that helped set France free). The earliest records of Père Noël appearing are from the mid-19th century - George Sand writes in her 1855 biography that as a kid she was waiting for "little father Christmas", this "good elder with his white beard", that dropped at midnight from the chimney to place shoes in the "petits souliers" (little slippers" of the kid) ; while an humoristic newspaper of 1848 wrote a dialogue where Père Noël knocks at someone's door - only for the person not to believe them, and saying he should be entering by the chimney not the door. Here, despite the name linking him to the British Father Christmas, he bears the marks of the proto-Santa Claus/Kris Kringle of 19th century America (such as the small size, explaining why he fits through chimneys). But it is all unclear as the figure was definitively not set in stone. In fact, in the second half of the 19th century, there was a certain fleeting between "Père Noël" (Father Christmas), "Bonhomme Noël" (Old Man Christmas/Christmas Man) and "Petit Noël" (Little Christmas, aka a variation of "Little Jésus", a French variant of the German Christkindl).

The thing with France is that it is a cultural crossroad - and this explains the diversity of Noël/Christmas traditions. For example in Provence there is a strong focus on the Epiphany and the Rois Mages (the Three Magi), similar to the traditions of the Reyes Magos in Spain ; while Eastern France truly kept alive the Saint Nicholas tradition typical of Central Europe (Netherlands, Germany, etc). And that's without counting local figures like Tante Arie... Anyway. So yes, saint Nicholas was a very popular gift-giver in France for a long time because France was a deeply Christian country (First Daughter of the Church), and the tradition stayed in the "Germanic" or Dutch-influenced parts of France (North, North-East). But in the rest of the country, Père Noël emerged. A continuation of Saint Nicholas-Sinterklass (still an old man, still with a donkey/horse, carrying gifts in a wicker basket), but with less religious symbols (while he still looks like a monk in some depictions, he never looks like a bishop and never has any overt Christian symbols). There's also the whole Père Fouettard as the French evil counterpart of Père Noël, the same way Saint-Nicholas/Sinterklaas has many "dark companions", but that's another story...

That all being said, the reason Père Noël was so easily "morphed" or "transformed" into the American Santa Claus is because, while he existed as a figure of Christmas folklore in France, he was not actually... defined. There was no specific image of him, no specific attribute, no lasting tradition - he existed as an archetype, as a general image, as a figure everybody knew by name but nobody agreed on how to depict. Sometimes he was closer to Saint Nicholas/Sinterklass by appearing as a thin monk-like old man with his donkey ; other times he was similar to the British Father Christmas by being a larger man dressed in green ; other times yet he was rather similar to the traditional embodiments of winter by appearing as a being wrapped in a grey or white large cloak... You've got some fleshy red-dressed Père Noël with fur-lined clothes similar to the future Santa Claus, just as much as you have skinny brown, blue or purple Père Noëls. There was a father Christmas but more as a general idea. And it is this inconsistency, this "freedom" of depiction that led to the American image of Santa Claus easily becoming the new face of Père Noël.

For example, here are various images of what the pre-Americanization Père Noël looked like:

You will notably notice that many of the visuals used in these Christmas pictures can also be found in England as the Father Christmas there tried out and found various looks - which is why it is sometimes hard to differentiate Victorian Christmas cards from French ones, and shows again how the French Père Noël is basically a cross between Father Christmas and Saint Nicholas.

In conclusion, long story short, Père Noël is not actually truly "French". It is a French figure, but born of the arrival of the British Father Christmas figure into a very Catholic France that fused him slightly with Saint Nicholas, hence a slightly more "religious" look ; and threw in some traditional Father Winter/Old Man Winter imagery to the lot. Overall, when you say "Father Christmas", you also speak of "Père Noël" as they are basically the same figure, with no massive difference, just slight alterations and a different cultural context.

And today Père Noël is just Santa Claus. BUT some elements that were part of the "old" Père Noël legend stuck around even in the modern Americanized incarnation, such as the habit of referring to "petits souliers" (little slippers) as the place he is supposed to leave gifts.

[onewomancitadel]

Well, don't ask how I got on this topic, but the pro/anti debate really illuminates how apparent the issue is between how something ideally work and how something should pragmatically work. Pragmatically I don't think artistic censorship is justifiable, even for things I find personally repugnant; it would be used in favour of things beyond your control, that's just a fact. Pragmatically though you also can't deny say, the example I've used in the past because it is extreme but illustrates the point, that if you found somebody you personally knew IRL writing graphic rape or murder fantasies about you, or a character named after you (that you infer to be you), you would absolutely have reason to act and maybe most of all be deeply offended. "Antis" deny the former, "proshippers" largely deny the latter. Hence my objection to the framework.

Ideally I think everybody should be making good, justified art all the time. Ideally all works which explore dark topics are not doing so only for base titillation (which in my view can exist alongside serious treatment). Ideally the full range of the human experience can be explored artistically and in response to that art. To try and deny that is, in my view, antihumanistic and against the very foundation of creativity, and further to that, I would really like to not have the mind police in my head trying to weigh up all my fantasies through a transactional lense.

Equally nor do I think that pragmatic sense of what is permissible to publish is at all confluent with your own personal moral judgement. Personal moral judgement and a larger cultural sense of shame is very powerful for policing behaviour in ways which laws aren't. In this sense I could say that the anti project is successful because we operate within this system of artistic - let's be honest - shipping consumption good or shipping consumption bad veil of fear. What constitutes 'good' and 'bad' varies; having been cancelled repeatedly on the interwebs for shipping Reylo I'm not sure that the anti framework is well-intentioned and necessarily coherent. Having further surveyed the variety of incest shippers in ASOIAF who self-identify as antis and get angry about other competing incestuous ships, methinks there is more often than not personal interest involved here.

This means (for people like me) who have a nuanced view - that is, for people who are not terminally fucking shipbrained and take this argument to its logical conclusion, that is, applicable to all art everywhere - the debate is actually worthless. It is really worthless, I'm sorry. And listen, I'm very empathetic; I block users who interact with my blog that have repellent misogynistic hentai all over their blog. I don't really try to apply a consciously feminist framework to my own writing, because I prefer a more neutral approach (that is, trying to tell a story first), but feminist or no, I don't want to think about human beings as sex objects. Where does that fit into the pro/anti paradigm? It doesn't, because the anti approach is about judging discrete units of ships independent of any narrative theory and the proship approach has a split pragmatic view (censorship bad) versus idealistic view (anything and everything should go), which doesn't leave much room for a coherent feminist analysis. Soz. I guess they tend to view it as feminist in the sense of sex positivity, but I also wouldn't necessarily call it sex positive to uncritically reproduce patriarchal sexual objectification. Speaking in a broad sense, lol. But I also don't think that pragmatically that is justifiable to censor!

These are fringe fandom antics and ultimately I don't think it's really moving the tick counter in any definable way when it comes to "patriarchal products" within society, if that's even within your purview. Certainly rarely enough for antis - again I'm thinking of the ASOIAF "anti" incest shippers who read the series known for being insensitive about its portrayal of rape - and certainly this bolsters the proship defense because it's not like (largely) women and/or trans people writing fanfic about their dollies having inappropriate amounts of sex is really the clincher in holding patriarchy together. But that's because I have a feminist interest and the pro/anti paradigm does not have a feminist framework by and large, only invoking it when it's rhetorically convenient. Neither side is convinced by the other because they are operating within self-interest, not really with a genuine goal of social justice. There are certainly examples (probably most of my mutuals who think of themselves as proshippers) of that genuine goal, and I've read convincing pieces from antis even though I think it all falls apart from its maximal utilitarian perspective (can't find the post, but I think once you introduce moral didacticism, you end up down an accelerated path to boredom very quickly; if this must be morally minded, then to not be morally minded in every way is irresponsible).

There's a point I want to return to which is the notion is that well-intentioned censorship (don't make works with incest (there goes Gothic literature), rape (GRRM can't get his rocks off anymore; now a huge topic which orders patriarchal abuse of men and women etc. is off limits?), etc.) eventually leads to that censorship and control being misused. (A related issue is that leftists against free speech are always very surprised to see censorship used against themselves because we are self-defeating). I think it would be naïve to pretend that this is not a welcome intention for the intent of control. I understand that there are lots of people online who are surprised to learn that there are people in the world acting with malice and having seen the anti/pro furore lead to some vicious consequences I do really think that there are malicious actors involved who are excited at the idea of this. These are not people who can be reasoned with on a pragmatic or idealistic basis and is the reason that I am wary of this "movement" altogether. Yes, there are people acting out of self-interest, and equally I think part of that self-interest is simply just malicious. It is honestly where the proshippers really frighten me, having seen proshippers go beyond the case of the written word and literature and begin to defend products I believe to be unconscionable, indefensible and actually dangerous. (I don't even want to discuss the material, sorry).

I don't just reject the pro/anti stuff because I think it's unreasonable, I reject it because this dynamic obviously invites the self-interested and it encourages malice (cancel antis/cancel proshippers/censor whomever you don't like, beyond pragmatic reason). I don't think it's an accident that it was borne of hyperinflated self-monitoring and scrutiny on the smallest vagaries of your politics (whether you hold them in the right order or not) and the more broader, precipitating idea that consumption - and consequently the commercialisation of art as consumption - figures as a politics of its own. Then again, there's probably some religious neuroticism mixed in there too.

I guess getting cancelled for having the same kin as somebody else was the new idolatry. You wouldn't remember kin lists. That's probably my ultimate thesis: I think this is just another way that people act with self-interest within fandom to secure the safety of a possessive sense over their own ships and characters - ship wars, in essence - to be malicious little trolls - to disguise a nested shame - nowhere do I think any sort of coherent approach to art and a social justice politics and moral philosophy actually figures in here. Pro/anti paradigm is lacking in at least one of these in some essential way which leaves them open to profound weakness, but that weakness is only apparent if you bother thinking about it beyond what erotica you are going to be writing.

No, I'll tell you the reason I wrote this post, it's because I think somebody followed me with 'proships DNI' in their bio and I still don't know what to do about it. What are we?