#ask lyanna

[lyannatropes]

I'm actually a relatively new follower, are there any blorbos in particular you want to show off?

I have many a blorbos that I actually don't show off enough, so here is some of them!

My secret obsession and awful woman I think about all the time. Opal is the first character I ever played in a ttrpg (Urban Shadows), and she was an ex monster hunter on a vengeance after her werewolf girlfriend was killed. She is so bad and tragic I can't help but love her deeply.

My dear "Looks terrifying, is actually a cinnamon roll (unless you hurt her shadow pet then fucking run)" lady knight, Lucrezia. She's an outcast who gets along better with spirits than humans, and she has a special bond with a shadow spirit who uses animal bones like shells called Catena. She's also another character I played!

My "Was a dragon in a previous life, is reincarnated again and again as a human after a curse" sorceress and artefacts enthusiast, Alyssa. She's also a character I played in an Urban Shadows game, the dragon playbook was perhaps the most fun I ever had. She had so many badass moments that live rent free in my head. I don't have art of her on my laptop and that is tragic.

Since this is getting long, I'll lastly mentioned my necromancer and lady knight Lavinia. She can see spirits and travel to the underworld, but in doing so accidentally poked where she wasn't meant to and she is now haunted by a powerful spirit. She is in a throuple with two other necromancers, Maria and Artemisia.

[nedseii]

I love ur art so much!! Would u ever draw any of the starks as kids??? (Brandon, Ned, lyanna, benjen)

Tysm!! I tried to draw Brandon too but I hate every single attempt and I didn't want to keep you waiting so I hope you like these 🙏

[corviids]

could you please post the finished lyanna and rhaegar art? i saw it on twitter and i love it <3

here you go anon !! sorry about that <3

[atopvisenyashill]

Is Lyanna really as terrible as some people portray her as?

no, not even a little bit.

the absolute most important thing about lyanna is that when she dies she is only 16. i am someone who works with kids - i work in a library so i spend most of my days cleaning up after tweens and asking teenagers to please stop doing dumb shit- and the first thing anyone who has ever worked with kids and especially teenagers is that they may look like adults but they are NOT. they don’t understand boundaries, they have next to zero impulse control, and every bad thing that happens feels like the worst thing ever because it very likely IS the worst thing they’ve ever experienced bc they have not been alive that long!

and this goes for every single teen & tween character in this series, not just lyanna! shit, i am someone who feels an immense amount of sympathy for joffrey! on one side he’s got his mother telling him he can do anything he wants with no repercussions and on the other he’s got his father hitting him so hard that stannis thought joffrey was going to die. and then he is given unchecked power and told not to abuse it! EYE cannot even guarantee that i wouldn’t use unchecked power to do shady shit and i am a fully grown adult, not a traumatized, irrationally, and deeply vindictive 13 year old boy.

but honestly the most important thing about lyanna is that we have ZERO CONTEXT for what happens between her and Rhaegar. What we have is

Ned’s sparse & guilt ridden thoughts about Lyanna and one (1) comment about Rhaegar

Robert’s angry, entitled, and grief ridden outbursts about Lyanna and Rhaegar

Barristan’s incredibly romanticized, guilt & grief ridden take on their relationship

Meera’s second hand account of Lyanna, told to her by a father who is likely just as guilt & grief ridden as the others, who likely has his own view of Lyanna

What’s important to note is that our view of her is heavily filtered through the eyes of the men that knew her. Robert loves an idealized version of her that never existed. Barristan never actually knew her. Ned is not only viewing her under 200 layers of guilt and grief, but very obviously does not understand his sister, or why she made the choices she did, and struggles constantly with knowing that he will never know her the way he wishes he could, the way he thought he did. Given the way Meera describes Lyanna, I actually think Howland is our most accurate look at her but even that is buried behind years of grief & a fair amount of hero worship and affection (“that’s my fathers man you’re kicking howled the she-wolf” is a line that makes me WEEP for this exact reason; Howland sees Lyanna as his hero above all else!).

All of that to say - we don't even know what Lyanna did that was so terrible! Even if she was a grown woman capable of making rational decisions, we have no idea what her decisions were. She could have been lied to, misled, kidnapped, threatened, just as surely as she could have walked into the situation with open eyes. Even in the show, with a slightly aged up Lyanna - we get, what, just Sam's opinion on Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love because they got hitched? Completely ignoring the fact that we had several women in this series get married not because they were in love or willing but because someone more powerful decided on it and that was that, so there's still no evidence that Lyanna had enough information about the situation to make any sort of informed, consensual decision.

so no, i do not hold lyanna responsible for anything at all that happened regardless of how it happened because she was not mentally mature enough to understand what the hell was going on. a 15 year old is just not mature enough to think “if i run off with this married man, it’s going to cause a cascade of political issues that could have disastrous consequences.” what she’s probably thinking is “this man says he can help me and i am fucking miserable and no one else will listen.” it’s why we don’t throw 15 year olds who run away to meet up with old dudes they met online in jail when they’re caught (or theoretically why we don’t punish them at any rate). There is one person and one person only who is responsible for the massive fuck up that is the Elia-Rhaenys-Aegon-Lyanna-Jon mess and that is RHAEGAR, the person with the most amount of power who used it in the dumbest way imaginable and got himself, most of his heirs, his wife, and his teenaged mistress killed. The only other people responsible are the Kingsguard who kept Lyanna under lock and key while she lay dying and pleading for her brother to come save her.

[long-claw]

Lyanna starks haunts the narrative. You should see how jealous Elia's fans are from this fact. They want george and the narrative to care for her. They think it's unfair that Elia doesn't haunt it too when all that she is is a plot device, while lyanna is the woman of the prophecy and the mother of Jon, the promised one. It's not like I hate Elia, but someone dared to say that Elia deserved the flower crown at Harrenhall when it's lyanna's motif.

I can't wait until they see that even Arthur Dayne cared for lyanna more. He probably stayed by her side comforting her after Rhaegar's death. I wouldn't be surprised if he was attracted to her. Not to hate on Elia but to show them the truth.

i'm so sorry but you've come to the wrong place, yes i was crying over lyanna a couple hours ago but i've cried over elia too because what could you possibly have against a dead woman in asoiaf who's only crime was... being in an arranged marriage? not being lyanna?

in all seriousness maybe george and the narrative don't care about elia but i do. she watched her baby's head be caved in and then was brutally raped and murdered and i hate that that's the most important thing we know about her. i wish elia was as important as lyanna, but how cruel is it to sit and compare two dead women by how much they matter to the living men.

also i have no idea what you're talking about arthur dayne and you can say this isn't hating, but it feels kinda like hating to me 😭

EDIT: i've thought about it more and "i wouldnt be surprised if he was attracted to her. not to hate on elia but to show them the truth" is such a wild statement please don't come back 😭

[bastardofharrenhal]

real funny how everyone goes out of their way to hate catelyn for daring to not like jon but lyanna’s negative reaction to the mere existence of mya stone is glorified as a girlboss standing on business moment

I'd clock into my shift as cat's defender any day of the week, but let's not pretend like those things r the same. lyanna wasn't hating on mya stone nor any other bastard - she was clocking robert and the fact he wouldn't change in marriage or in love no matter how much ned hoped he would, in which she was right, btw. cat was hating on jon because he was the only person she could punish for ned's infidelity. ned is her husband and inherently had power over her, she didn't know who jon's mother was and speculation on her identity was forbiden by ned, and if she tried to rebel against ned, who she loves, she'd only make herself miserable, bring to light the cracks in her marriage and earn nothing. Her resentment of jon isn't because jon did something wrong, its because he exists and ned constantly undermined her as his wife and the mother of his heirs. robert, on the other hand, did not have that power over lyanna and wouldn't until they married. he had not right to forbid her from speaking of his bastards or being upset by them or drawing conclusions. let's not put two bad bitches in two bad situations against one another

[hamliet]

Hope you are having a wonderful day! Just wanted to ask, what's your take on Rhaegar Targaryen? What kind of person do you perceive him as? GRRM has so many characters praise him but many of his actual actions were so shitty

Good question! My interpretation: he's a person.

No, but really. I think he is neither the conniving groomer many view him as, nor the heroic, romantic prince with a heart of gold. But I think he started out more as the heroic, romantic side than the other.

Do I think Rhaegar loved Lyanna? Yes, I genuinely do. I realize that take isn't popular but my guess is that it fits better with Martin's view of a Romantic world, and also fits better with Lyanna's character. That said, I also don't think Martin will ever clear it up and will leave the idea of whether this is love or not up for debate--because it can be debated. I guess I should say I think Lyanna and Rhaegar both believed they were in love and felt that way until they died. However--

However, love doesn't magically make the world better. This is the part where Martin's view takes a melancholy semi-deconstructionist look at Romanticism. Martin's MO in doing this, through other characters like Sansa, is showing us that fairy tale logic-- "knights are brave and faithful" "love saves the day" and "true power is kindness"--doesn't work on a daily level, but it doesn't mean there is no value to the ideals it teaches.

Idealism seems to be at the root of Rhaegar's character, honestly. He's kind of like Sansa, but if Sansa was still unwise as an adult with a lot more power and agency. Idealism of romantic love. Idealism of being a brave heroic king who fulfilled the prophecy to save the world. He fully believed in these things, and they made his life and the lives of everyone he loved worse.

Rhaegar is married to Elia and essentially ditches her and their two kids to run off with Lyanna, who is a teenager facing a marriage she doesn't want with someone who claims to love her but isn't faithful to her during betrothal, much less marriage. The tragedy of it is that Lyanna runs off with someone essentially doing the same thing to his wife that Lyanna didn't want to be done to her as Robert's wife.

Still, I think Rhaegar was probably genuinely fascinated with Lyanna when he found out she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and promised not to reveal her. Thus, true love was all that mattered, right? Except... that's not how the world works.

But did Rhaegar really love Lyanna or was he just using her for the prophecy? Again, I think why can't it be both? I do think the prophecy idea played a role in Rhaegar's motivations to pursue Lyanna. He wanted a third child and thought he had to have one for the prophecy, but Elia could not have more children physically without killing her.*

So, my thinking is that grinding to determine whether his motives were prophecy or purely love miss the point and negate the tragedy of the situation. He loved Lyanna but yes, he also saw opportunity and assumed destiny would guide him. And that hubris ensured that both Lyanna and Rhaegar died.

Rhaegar is an idealistic man who believes so strongly in his sense of purpose--a purpose greater than himself that genuinely will save people--that he forgets to look down and look around him at the life he's actually living and the lives around him in favor of the potential lives he could save. His hyper-focus on prophecy is his tragic flaw that brings about his downfall and death of so many people, and it didn't need to happen this way.

In focusing on a dream idealistic forbidden romance and coming child, he neglects his living wife and children, who are then assaulted and brutally murdered. Instead of true love idealistically triumphing, he actually loses to the man whom Lyanna did not love but who was betrothed to marry her, since Robert kills him. In his belief that the prophecy would be fulfilled through him, he forgets that he is himself human and all humans have weaknesses and die.

Rhaegar had the best of intentions but the worst of the worst of implementation, in other words. Or maybe more accurately Rhaegar was all about theory, and he forgot practice and everyone around him paid the price, particularly the innocents like Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys. The questions that stem from this drive many of our characters and are at the heart of the questions Martin wants his readers to ask.

And: his life wasn't entirely in vain, because his son Jon lives.

*(Aside--to his credit, Rhaegar does not force Elia to have sex and have another child even though he could have. Like, bare minimum yes, but it's also not a coincidence that we're told that Aerys the Mad King routinely brutally assaults Rhaegar's mother (and one of these attacks leads to Daenerys's birth) because in Westeros it's not assault if you're married. Side note: also not a coincidence that what isn't seen as assault but is leads to Dany while what is publicly seen as assault but isn't leads to Jon.

Even throughout Fire & Blood, we read about husbands who unquestionably love their wives having sex with them and conceiving kids strongly against medical advice--Robert and Alyssa, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, etc. Rhaegar doesn't do this, showing that he's trying to do less harm to others around him. But, he still humiliates Elia by taking off with Lyanna--and his actions do lead to her death and the death of their children. And even if they hadn't, there's an emotional toll. So, did he really do less harm, or more? These are the sorts of questions I think Martin wants his readers to ponder more than answer.)*

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Hello Butterfly! Sorry for a weird ask, but i could have sword that i've seen somewhere on your blog a link to an old writeup of r+l=j theory. the info there was the usual, careful combing thru Ned's POV chapters for proof, but i remember it *looking* old, like the most barebones of a webpage, just text on a white background, no header, no footer, barely any margins on the text. not a part of an old forum or anything either, but like someone just made that one page of theory and hosted it themselves. now i'm looking around for it and i simply can't find it :( if you know what im talking about, could you link it? if not, nvm, i know this is a crazy long shot. thank you!!

Not at all a weird ask, believe me! You're asking about the really ancient ASOIAF FAQ I found once, don't worry, I still remember it. This is the FAQ, it was made before AFFC, and was last updated in 2003. (It's hosted on Angelfire, which often amazes me that it's still going, but hey, good luck for us. You can even still make your own Web 1.0-style site there!) And this is the page on the question of Jon's parentage, which concludes that R+L=J is the most logical answer. It's still one of the best resources on that question, lacking only the primary evidence developments in AFFC (the Gilly's baby switcheroo) and ADWD (Bran's vision of Lyanna stick-swordfighting and of Ned praying that Jon and Robb become "close as brothers"). Hope that helps!

[martellspear]

What do you think about rhaelya fan's "Jon was unplanned" fave narrative?

Let's see...

Rhaegar is a man who has built his lift around the prophecy, he changed his entire lifestyle because of it ⇀ Rhaegar put in his head he needs to father three babies but refuses to put his wife through a third pregnancy ⇀ Rhaegar comes across "A song of Ice and Fire" ⇀ associates ice with the Starks and thinks his third baby - Visenya - will come from Lord Stark's daughter. ⇀ He only stays with her until he knows for sure she is with child ⇀ Rhaegar leaves and doesn't leave instructions or anyone to aid the delivery. Not only that but the girl is currently in a Tower somewhere she doesn't know, where people probably want her dead and dealing with weather conditions she isn't used to. ⇀ The knights that went with him have orders to murder anyone who comes to take his incubator home. ⇀ If Rhaegar had any future plans for Lyanna, he would have taken here somewhere else or forsaken the crown. ⇀ Rhaegar wants his third baby, that's it. The rest is the rest. ⇀ Rhaegar doesn't do anything to make the pregnancy comfortable for her.

Now let's look at it from Lyanna's perspective:

Lyanna was 14 years old when they met ⇀ Lyanna wanted to be a knight, she doesn't care for "lady like" activities, she wanted to be just like her big brothers - probably really looked up to Brandon - ⇀ Lyanna has a moral code, she believes bastards to be a slight ⇀ Lyanna doesn't want to marry Robert because he has bastards, it would bring her shame. A bastard born before Robert's betrothal to her, mind you ⇀ Lyanna probably wouldn't be happy in Dorne, trapped in a tower. She died screaming, she wanted to go home. ⇀ Rhaegar didn't tell her - or even worse, did and kept her captive - about her dead brother and father ⇀ Lyanna, clearly, wouldn't happily carry Rhaegar's child. He probably manipulated her, I don't doubt he convinced her she could stay in Dorne and train there. The dornish culture is more lenient toward women who want to fight.

Jon was planned by Rhaegar. He needed a third baby, a girl. His third head of the dragon. Lyanna was something he used to get there, harsh as it sounds.

[lyannatropes]

Obsessed with your art. The vibes are so good

omg thank you so much 🥹

[nedseii]

We’ve seen Rhaegar in your style (who looks amazing btw) but I’ve wondered if you drew Lyanna Stark too before? :o

Sheeeeeeeee

[whateverthought]

It's tragic love. You just don't WANT not CAN'T like Rhaegar x Lyanna. You think life is white and black and that as long as Elia is not loved by Rhaegar you should find fault in their love.

Whats tragic about it? What did Rhaegar see in this little girl? The only nice thing he ever does for her is naming her "Love and Beauty" at a tourney. Which, depending on Lyanna's situation could have actually hurt her? If Robert Baratheon had been a jealous, abusive man, seeing another man show interest in her could have caused her problems. Hell, if her father was an abusive man, he could have called her a whore and punished her for just the Thought that she was with the Prince, who she never met.

Other than that? What else is there? Stealing her away in the night? Something that started a War and put her siblings in harm's way? He took her from her Horrible Betrothement and then what? Put her in a tower?

We do know Rhaegar was obsessed with his Family History and the Prophecy especially. We do know Elia couldn't give him anymore children, just one short. We do know he knew about the Ice and Fire part and its 'importance'. We also know Lyanna hated that Robert, her fiance/betrothed, slept around even though they were 'together'. And we know Lyanna had a strong moral compass, or belief in Right and Wrong.

Saying you KNOW what I'm feeling is crazy. It's not my Black and White View that's causing me problems, its the established characterization that I'm hung up on.

I don't care if Rhaegar Loved Elia, personally I don't have enough on these characters to care.

[lingulaca]

You don't need to say it. The subtle hint in your words is abovious. TikTok is full of Lyanna's haters because "she hurt elia" or whatever victim fantasy Elia's stans like. Rhaegar was never Elia's. Lyanna didn't take anything from her. He was hers from the beginning.

this is what i mean when i say being an elia fan these days is tiring

i talked about how being an elia fan felt weird bc online she has lots of haters for weird reasons and your response is "tiktok is full of-" DID I ASK YOU WHAT TIKTOK WAS FULL OF? 🤦🏾‍♀️

there isn't any "subtle hint" in my words you sound insane this is tumblr. can we stay on topic and stop projecting pls you just said things that don't apply to me lmfao

"rhaegar was never elia's"/"lyanna didn't take anything from her" i don't like rhaegar and i don't think him being with anyone is good. i feel bad for lyanna, that's rlly it... it's weird that u seem to think i feel jealous on behalf of elia. i am NOT an elia x rhaegar shipper somebody else can have him 🤷🏾‍♀️

[polysucks]

Ok listen. Do you ever just think about things like Robb, Ned, & Lyanna haunting the narrative? Robb and Jon dying close to the same age, but Jon is the only one coming back? Or things like “it feels as though her heart has turned to stone” (hinting at Lady Stoneheart) to “Tullys return to the river when they die” and then Catelyn just 😭😭😭 they DUMP her body in the river after they kill her. The fact that Jon and Cat come back as something else - themselves, but not quite themselves. And then I just think about how Jaime is the only one who was ever really truly kind to Tyrion. And Elia cooing at baby!Tyrion, Oberyn remarking how Tyrion is just a baby in his eyes, not a monster! Or when Viserion is a mama’s boy and is super clingy w Dany, and he might be the dragon that’s used against her 😭 her sweet boy, her precious Viserion

Sorry these thoughts haunt my brain all the time and had to get it out 😂

the way im looking at you rn. these thoughts are my mantra before i fall asleep at night.

I have so much i wanna say but maybe I should break these down and write different essays for each part because. You are

so

right

and you should say it.

Some of these I've already touched on, if anyone is interested, or missed them!!

Jaime loves Tyrion.

Lyanna (and Elia) haunt the narrative and I'm angey about it.

[thesunwillshineonusagain757]

You really posted a lot of Rhaelya's AU and fan works🥰Thank you, I'm well fed. Please don't delete or cancel your account. I was very sad when an author cancelled his account before. always support you🥹🫶

Oh babes, no worries — ain’t no danger of me disappearin’. I’ve put up with six years (maybe more!) of folks chatin’ rubbish about my OTP, and I’m still here, standin’ strong. Best weapon for my mental peace? That glorious Block button, innit. Gotta say though, I do miss the Rhaelya Discord—it kinda fizzled out a while back. But me leavin’? Not a chance, love 💜

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Within Westeros people know Lyanna Stark was "abducted" and held at the Tower of Joy where she died, but from what? What do people think she died from? Also for R+L=J did Rhaegar not send at least one maester for the delivery since I thought only Ned and Howland Reed survived the seizing of the tower?

Your first question is answered here, but to sum up, most likely a fever. (People die from fevers and "chills" in ASOIAF all the time, they don't have modern medicine.) Because, well, Lyanna did die from a fever. And you don't have to tell people it was specifically childbed fever when all you're bringing home is bones.

For your second question, note that only Ned and Howland survived the battle for the tower. "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away." This doesn't mention any non-combatants who might have been in the tower -- and note that Ned's thoughts about Lyanna's death actually do mention someone else:

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. —AGOT, Eddard I

Bolding mine-- "they", there was at least one other person besides Howland who found Ned holding his dead sister. Many people suspect that person to be Wylla, who as a wet nurse was also very likely to be a midwife. Whether there was a maester there too, who knows? Maesters can't fix everything, and heck, we've learned from F&B that they seem to be especially bad at saving women from childbed fever and other complications of pregnancy.