#artagans love is in understanding and making everyone understand it's Her who's special

[ludinusdaleth]

I went through your Artagan tag and I'm so confused as to how people watched it as it aired and came out of Campaign 2 still thinking Artagan was abusive to Jester. Or even carry that hate! Artagan/The Traveler never came off as abusive, just annoying and reckless. It makes sense that in-universe her friends would feel uncomfortable around him, but the fans should've known better and Matt shouldn't have had to feel like he was enabling an abusive relationship and apologize for it.

im glad that folk feel the way you do now, lol, but, yeah. it was a rough time if you enjoyed the guy. if you go far enough back in the tumblr & twitter search results for arti the discourse is everywhere, and you'd find very, very few people who saw arti even in a nuanced light at that point. because of the concept of a man befriending a girl and not being wholly honest with her at first, people really viewed everything through how creepy that was, without its unfolding context, and without the context that he was a fae (im sure the constant allusions to jareth in labyrinth did not help, although it should have, because that was a movie that understood a warped peter pan concept - and really, arti was the peter to jesters wendy.)

i dont know if i ever felt so justified & correct as the day matt explicitly said on talks machina that he would never play artagan as creepy or abusive to jester, and even now he expresses laughing disgust at the idea they'd kiss or anything similar. but like you said, i feel like that should have been obvious. arti always has an archfeys aloofness & general lack of empathy, but from the beginning he clearly wants jester to be happy. not once through the entire series does he ever imply jester needs him (he in fact constantly says the opposite) and he is always encouraging her to find life outside of him, which an abuser or groomer never would. he always includes her as a part of his power, an equal, a confidante, rather than acting like he rules over her. he never expresses jealousy or a need to have her near him over her time with the m9. he trusts & loves her enough to eventually come clean about his identity, and when he realizes hes hurt her during travelercon you can see his brain beginning to try to desperately understand a mortals feelings to try to comfort her - and he DOES find a way to that middle ground. this is all before the travelercon kick. i dont know how folk didnt watch even his initial reveal to the m9 alone and not see the absolute love he has for jester & need to make sure she loves her life and has the tools to navigate it. i could go on about their relationship forever but yeah tldr im glad folk finally see what i did.

[salamoonder]

Alright, so here’s the thing. At this point, I actually don’t care what Artagan has or hasn’t done and, morally, what that means. It’s irrelevant. Interesting, but irrelevant. What I want to talk about is what the Nein, excluding Jester, know about him, and what they do with this information, and how they cast judgment.

Here are things that the nein have actually seen: fleeting glimpses of a figure in a green cloak. one conversation with a giant archfey who has recruited jester’s help in planning a convention. further, fleeting glimpses. very very brief phrases.

Here are things that the nein have heard about him from jester: he’s pretty cool, you guys :) . he’s got a chaotic streak, like her. he helps her pull off pranks. he’s always shown up for her. he’s handsome. he taught her magic. he kept her company when her mom was busy. he is her first friend. he is her best friend. he is her oldest friend. she really loves him.

and yes, they know he misrepresented himself to jester for years. they know he sent them to an island where you lose your memory every night. they know that he is sketchy as fuck and they do not know if he means what he says. and that is reasonable and understandable and fair.

here is something that i don’t know if you guys know about abusers, regardless of if artagan is one or not. (and he’s not. i’m not even going to say i don’t think he is, he literally is not abusive. words mean something; stop throwing them around because you personally don’t like someone.) you cannot tell their victims that they are abusive or awful or manipulative or horrible, and expect that to help. that makes it worse. the same is true of cults. you cannot, and i mean CANNOT, make yourself hostile, because then the outside world is hostile, and the abuser is safe. the outside world is hostile, and the cult is safe. furthermore you’re reinforcing what every abuser and what every cult plants in their victim’s heads--i’m the only one who would put up with you. i’m the only one who really loves you. everyone else will be cruel to me, but i’m the only thing you have. even if the nein had reason to suspect that the traveler was straight up abusing jester instead of just weird and shady, that is not a good response.

no matter how bad artagan is or isn’t, fjord, caduceus, and beau are still being condescending. they are still failing to trust that jester knows what she’s talking about. they are still trying to coddle her, they are still treating her like a child, and i want to talk about that. i want y’all to see that they’re still treating her like she’s emotionally fragile. like individually, i want to talk about that, and also the fact that everyone seems to want to lump caleb into this. (and yasha?? yasha has barely said anything about him, y’all.)

i’m going to skim over caduceus a bit because i don’t think his is a jester-centric problem. he tends to just trust that he either has the correct answers to a situation, or that even if he doesn’t know what’s correct, he knows what isn’t. this arc has been very interesting, because it’s been a lot of “i’ll play along with this because it sounds intriguing, but i’m going to be very self righteous about it the whole time.” like. the “we’re good” when jester brought up transferring followers to melora is haunting me. why “we’re good”? i get cad’s philosophy that not everyone is going to flock to one god--that’s fine, that makes sense. but the implication of “we’re good” really makes it sound like “mmm no thanks, none of these people would end up in my cool and correct religion anyway.” because he doesn’t know! he doesn’t know if any of these people would actually be happier and better off with melora. or. maybe he does know, or has decided, that they wouldn’t be, because these are not the kind of people that he could see himself falling under the same moral umbrella as. (lmao love how i said i was going to skim. anyway. again, less a jester thing, more a “cad is smug about everything” thing tbh.)

let’s move to fjord. he is quite honestly making me almost more uncomfortable than beau, because he’s making statements that i don’t really actually believe. “we just don’t want you to get hurt” is all very well and good. coupling that with agreeing with beau that they shouldn’t leave jester alone with artagan? without telling jester? does not jive. (i’m still not over the ridiculous of that, by the way. yeah this dude--no, this ARCHFEY, who could snap you in half in a moment--has been alone with her regularly for the first 20ish years of her life but now, now he’s going to try and kill her, and you’re going to be the one to stop that.) fjord keeps saying things like this--that he trusts her--but he doesn’t actually act like it. at one point he even says “if jester has faith in the traveler, that’s good enough for me, i suppose.” but it’s not, and he doesn’t act like it is. you know who actually acts like that? caleb. caleb’s getting his own paragraph though this is getting long as fuck. but if fjord actually meant that? he would’ve told beau “listen i know this situation is sketchy and i don’t like him anymore than you do but because i trust jester i also trust that she knows what she’s doing here, and i’ll be there to back her up with whatever she needs/wants me to do”. but he did not say that or anything like that. instead he agreed with beau to essentially be bodyguarding jester--without consulting jester about it at all. he wouldn’t have told jester “he’s generally full of shit, right?” about the traveler. jester is continually telling the group over and over again that she knows what he’s like. she knows Exactly how he can be. and the sad thing is, if fjord actually believed that she knew what she was talking about when she said that and if he believed that he could actually talk to her frankly and not that her feelings had to be protected at all costs (my skin is still crawling at “we don’t wanna ruin jester’s special day”. it’s not a five year old’s birthday party), then he would have straight up told her. he would have said “hey we’re concerned enough that he’s going to hurt you that we don’t think you should be alone with him. can we help guard against that?”

and i’ll be honest, i’ve kind of been squicked out by all the romantic posts about fjord and jester because he’s spent the last few episodes genuinely treating her like a wonderful but vulnerable child who needs to be protected from the world. when he told beau "I'm probably the least clued in as to how jester feels” i was like YEAH NO SHIT. and i know he meant it in a romantic sense but i feel that it’s true in general. like i get that he’s scared to talk to her. that’s fine. he doesn’t have to talk to her about her feelings, romantic or otherwise. but if he’s acknowledging that he does not at all know how she feels then he has no right to behave as if he does know. and again i don’t mean this in a romantic sense. i mean it in a, he is making the assumption that she can’t handle reasoned criticism of the traveler to her face, kind of sense. he and beau both are opting for “random insults, threats, and judgments they have decided apply” over “genuinely this is why we are concerned”. there has been a lot of “you don’t need him” and “you are better off without him” and “you’re better than him” and “you have us why do you need that” and those are judgement statements that are essentially meaningless. all they do is further demonstrate to jester that they don’t actually understand why she’s upset or what she actually wants.

i think caleb, mr i-eat-encyclopedias-for-breakfast, likely just has a better intellectual understanding of the fae and that may be why he’s not as outwardly concerned as the rest, but he’s also actually decided to trust jester that she knows what she’s dealing with. she has demonstrated both verbally and with her actions that even if she may not have known about artagan initially, She Knows How This Works. and he trusts that. caleb truly went “alright, i trust that you know what you’re doing, where do you need me” and that was IT. i’m not saying that he’s not allowed to be suspicious or concerned or wary of the traveler: i just don’t think he is. and i hate that people keep lumping him in with the rest of the nein “treating jester like a child” because they think he’s predatory or something--especially as caleb and fjord are pretty much the same age--when he is literally the only FUCKING person consistently asking jester how she feels and then actually acting accordingly.

and the thing is, you don’t have to be caleb and largely unconcerned, it is actually possible for you to show concern and alarm and wariness for your friend’s best friend without condescending to them and veth has been doing that this whole damn time. we know how she feels about him; she decidedly does not like him. but she set that aside to really fully listen to jester and then tried to be helpful to her in deciding what to do next, without inserting her own opinion. veth is the only one acknowledging that, sure, this looks really bad and i don’t like that guy, but you know him best, jester, and you know yourself best and so it should be your choice what to do in this situation. she reminds jester--if he is really a friend to you, and he is doing things you don’t like, then you can talk to him about that and he should listen. i want to talk about how when jester suggested that artagan join the mighty nein, there were exactly three reactions. extremely lame excuses from everyone but caleb and veth, “maybe, like, an annex--” from caleb, because he knows what everyone else is gonna say, and “we don’t like your friend” from veth, literally the only person who has apparently decided that jester can hear that without dissolving into a puddle or something.

and i want to make it clear--i don’t hate the actors. and stories are supposed to make you upset and uncomfortable, to an extent. they’re supposed to make you think. you’re not supposed to be happy when darth vader blows up alderaan. you’re not supposed to be happy when edmund betrays his siblings to the white witch. these are all excellent, excellent character choices and i applaud the cast for making them. and i don’t hate fjorester. and like yeah there have been a lot of cute moments in the last few eps. and they are cute and their story is compelling and it’s interesting. but i wish people would stop acting like fjord’s attitude towards her is perfect and lovely and that he trusts her sooo much when he is going behind her back like this. i am...the biggest widomauk shipper. and i have to admit my heart does the swoopy thing every time i rewatch the forehead kiss. but that wasn’t great. it was overall really not a good read or handle of the situation. it was, there was an attempt. and i do think fjord is trying. and i think beau is trying too. and i think all of their attitudes however terrible just come from a place of loving her and wanting to protect her. but--and here i must point frantically back at artagan--loving someone does not mean that you’re not hurting them.

[demonologue]

Some predictions for s2 of The Legend of Vox Machina

(and how it will affect Gilmore’s storyline and how new fans perceive him)

@dreanner95​ wrote:

I am holding out hope for season 2, I really am. But I’ve done some storyboarding math, and it doesn’t look good for Gilmore or any accurate-to-campaign portrayals of his relationship with Vax. 

If you will indulge me, here are the story beats I’m predicting for a 12 episode Chroma Conclave arc:

The dragons attack the city. Rawr. VM fight valiantly but end up having to retreat and teleport to Vasselheim to get help. 

Earthbreaker Groon tests Grog and tries to get him to ditch Craven Edge by telling him about Vestiges. Maybe even specific ones in a certain sunken tomb and Westruun. B-story will be our intro to Viktor and his chaos.

The sunken toooooooooooooooooomb. All angst and finally some focus on Vex’ahlia. Who is the least favourite female PC of all new fans to LoVM because the writers gave her nothing in s1. But that’s another rant.

The Herd of Storms. Kevdak. Westruun. Kaylie. Poppa Willhand. The one-on-one between Grog and Kevdak, ending with a cliffhanger where Grog almost dies.

Surprise, Grog doesn’t die. Now it’s time to fight Umbrasyl with the herd. Black dragon is down in one. No one is surprised after what happened with Brimscythe in episode 3. But wait! It’s Kerr! Let’s celebrate victory and give Keyleth a pep talk about leadership, because she’s the main character.

Time to head to the Feywild, little dogies! Find out why the twins are the way they are, introduce Artagan and watch the chaos, because we would never play down a fan favourite. 

This one is probably a two-parter, because everyone loves Artagan and if the writers don’t take advantage of the angst in Vex’ahlia’s choice between Saundor and her friends, then can they really call themselves writers?

We go to Marquet to grab Cabal’s Ruin, meet J’mon Sa Ord, get drugs for Scanlan, fly on a ship to Glintshore and all that lovely mess because we cannot deny Percival his swan song (his second swan song? idk).

Things have happened. They’re sad. Resurrection ritual. But we have the vestige and one BONUS vestige. Huzzah. Oh no! Raishan in disguise? Stab her, Percy! CLIFFHANGER

Nevermind, it’s fine. On to the elemental plane of fire. A card game. A pit fiend. A slave market. Vestige acquired. Huzzah. 

OH NO save KimAllura from bad mages at Fort Daxio. Then time to kill Vorugal so Raishan can prove herself. Where’s Larkin? Lots of treasure, including the Spire of Conflux. Now let’s do the Siege of Emon. 

The Siege of Emon. Wait, Raishan got away. Let’s go kill her ass. Big victory party. But at the end, Vex shoots a critical success arrow into the spinning ball of death and sees Thar Amphala on the other side. CLIFFHANGER. 

This leaves 0 room for Gilmore. It doesn’t leave room for Gilmore to single-handedly fight Thordak in episode 39. It doesn’t leave room for Vax to cry over his nearly-dead body in episode 40. Moreover, it would be an emotional beat no new viewers would understand, because Vax and Gilmore’s relationship has not been set up to BE that. 

In fact, I would argue that we GOT that emotional beat from Vax for Keyleth in the added FoD scene in episode 11-12. Look at my face. I’m totally fine that they took that moment away from Gilmore and appropriated it to Keyleth. Everything is fine. Mlm is valid in this show, we’re just not going to show you any apart from “harmless” flirting and Scanlan’s innuendos. 

Likewise, 57 makes no emotional sense. It’s not a huge shock anymore when Hotis stabs Vax disguised as Gilmore, because Gilmore is just an acquaintance. There’s no emotional impact. And the show has already set Hotis up as a little side gag in episode 5. Then how does Vax find out about his wings, you ask? Well, obviously it’s something about Keyleth and true love and why do you need Gilmore for that? There’s nothing special about him, and definitely nothing special to VAX about him.

There’s no need for Gilmore to create and maintain the shield over Whitestone. No need for Gilmore to save them from Vorugal in episode 64. At this point, new viewers would just wonder why time is being taken away from the main characters for this shopkeeper guy.

With all that, I can see Gilmore maybe MAYBE getting to fight Thordak with them in episode 12. But as of now in the story, we have no concept of his real power as a wizard, either. So bringing him along will no doubt seem random. VM will probably bring Allura along instead because it’s been established that she has old beef with Thordak, her boo Kima will be there (and c2 critters love their shield wife lesbians), and she’s also the imperial wizard of Emon. 

Please understand I’m not HOPING for any of this, but I feel like I can see it coming like a slow-moving freight train, and I’m just trying to prepare myself. 

[cameoamalthea]

I think it's interesting how many people were wanting Jester to leave Artagan and go with the Moonweaver (who is awesome btw). I can't properly convey how relieved I am that didn't happen and that their already strong bond was made stronger and they both grew from it. Because that is how good relationships work and people are capable of changing for the better. Finding new faith worked for Fjord, but I don't believe it would have worked for Jester the same way. What they have can't be replaced.

If Artagan was forcibly taken from Jester it would have been traumatizing for Jester. 

What the Mighty Nein, and perhaps a portion of the fandom, don’t understand is that Jester is a depressed lonely person who hides it. She puts on a mask of always happy and fine, it’s ok. She’s not ok and they don’t see it. Jester is also afraid of being alone, which plays into her fear of being disliked and abandoned. 

Whether or not anyone else likes Artagan, Jester LOVES him and she has some serious attachment issues so just ripping him away from her would be super harmful.

There’s a scene in C2E19 where the party sees a shack and wants to investigate it. Jester suggests turning Frumpkin into a bird to go check it out since it’s like a mile away. Caleb does not like the idea, but then playfully says for you Fjord I will do it. Jester responds by being dramatic and pouting about him shooting her down but being willing to do it for Fjord. 

LAURA: Can Frumpkin be a bird? 

LIAM: (reluctantly) Yeah. 

TALIESIN: For a bit. 

TRAVIS: I want to check out the shack. 

LIAM: All right. For you, Fjord, I will make Frumpkin a bird. 

LAURA: Not for me, though. Caleb hates me.

SAM: We could just walk over there. It's a hassle to turn him into a bird. 

TRAVIS: Yeah. Keep your cat. 

LIAM: You are more sensitive than I would have imagined. 

LAURA: I want people to like me.

Caleb is extremely observant and although this is a light, playful scene, says something that cuts really close. “You are more sensitive than I would have imagined.” She’s being over the top and dramatic, he criticizes her, and since what she was joking about what is actually some real insecurity she kind of deflates, her voice gets real small and she says “I want people to like me.” 

It’s a blink and you’ll miss it moment made harder to catch by the fact everyone is talking at once and Laura is eating pizza (role-playing with your mouth full - this is not to shame her for eating, she is entitled to that pizza, but it might make it harder to pick up on the moment). However, I think this touches upon something important. 

Jester is in fact extremely insecure about being liked, and you see this with her relationship with the Traveler. Worrying that he might not like her now that she has other friends at first, and constantly needing reassurance that she’s the most important. 

There’s a brilliant thread on reddit that sums up Jester’s character as follows:

“She's a people-pleaser because she's afraid to lose people. She grew up with the only 'low resource' being people - caring, loving, laughing people. She had her mother, who definitely loves her, but that was it. Most children have scores of people, and other children! to play with. Jester didn't.

And she's afraid to lose that, at any cost. Even realizing she was manipulated, keeping Artagen is more important than standing up for herself or showing her disappointment, because she can't lose him.

Onto - Artagen. What we know:

He's openly admitted to being manipulative and selfish

More importantly: he's openly admitted to never wanting to be bored and never wanting to 'get into emotions'

This REALLY matters. Why?

Because Jester is afraid of losing everyone so she can't be what those people don't want.

Jester can't be upset in front of Artagen because he might get bored with all of her emotions and leave.

It's crazy important for her to be his favorite because, as she is helping him leave all of his followers (her biggest fear) he keeps saying he won't leave her.”

Jester has pretty serious abandonment issues. Children need the attention and support of a caregiver. RedditTotalWar made a great point on that reddit thread: “A significant withdrawal of attention is often enough to cause a child to develop abandonment issues. Children don't have the capacity to realize that some things aren't about them since they are the centers of their own universe.” So the fact Jester’s mother, who clearly loves her and is a good person, did not always have time for her and required Jester to keep her existence secret is damaging. 

Note, this is not to suggest that Marrion is a bad person or was intentionally abusive. You don’t have to be a monster to hurt a child. Disney example: In Tangled, Mother Gothel isolated Rapunzel and was an abuser who just wanted to use her. In Frozen, Anna’s Mother and Father isolated Anna out of a desire to do what they thought was best for their other daughter Elsa and to protect Anna from what they saw as the threat posed by Elsa’s magic. Anna’s parents were not intentionally abusive and loved their children, but Anna was still neglected and isolated and harmed by their actions.

To Jester, the message she got growing up was ‘Momma loves me, but she’s busy and I can’t get in the way and no one can know I exist’ which could easily be taken as ‘Momma loves me, but I’m not the most important thing to her’ or even ‘Momma loves me, but my existence makes her life harder, so maybe I’m not completely lovable since I’m a problem’. 

And while you may think, if she was that worried why would she act out and play pranks and cause trouble, the fact is that children who are insecure about being loved may self-sabotage with caregivers. You see a high rate of disruption in foster children right before adoption because the child starts exhibiting behaviors. Perhaps faced with the fear of, maybe my parental won’t love me if I cause trouble, it feels safer just deliberately causing trouble because then at least you’re the one in control rather than walking on eggshells terrified that messing up could mean abandonment. 

The fact that Jester’s prank on Lord Sharp resulted in her having to leave the only home she’s ever known and never come back under threat of death and that her Mother could not (or in her mind, would not?) protect her may have made her abandonment issues a lot worse. 

Jester is terrified of being left alone, of being abandoned. Taking away the one person who has been a constant in her life and who she has felt safe with all at once would not be good. As Laura said on her playlist “he’s always been the one person she could show her insecurities to” and losing that stable, trusted person would hurt. 

 I don’t think her relationship with Artagan is entirely healthy (it’s not healthy for a child to grow up with only one other friend and her attachment to him extreme and also he’s a selfish, manipulative Archfey - I don’t think Artagan thinks this relationship is entirely healthy). However, I do not think it would have been better for her to have him ripped away like that. Especially given the fact that the whole Moonweaver thing was her idea and she would likely blame herself for what happened. 

How devastating would that be for someone with Jester’s level of insecurity? 

The Mighty Nein, and again a portion of the fandom, may have preferred it if Jester broke up with Artagan and moved on or found a new god. Fjord’s relationship with Uk’otoa (Uk’atoa) was toxic and abusive, so the Mighty Nein are very wary of that sort of relationship. Fjord if projecting and thinks that any relationship with a powerful being that isn’t a god is dangerous. 

The truth is Jester’s relationship with Artagan isn’t really like one of cleric and god. It’s more like a personal relationship where he happens to give her divine powers.

LAURA: I take a bite of my caramel apple, and I go walking down.

MATT: You hear a crunch sound and your handshakes for a second and you look down and a mysterious secondary bite was taken out of the apple.

LAURA: (gasp) I lick the spot.

(groaning)

SAM: You're making out with your god? Gross.

MATT: They have a special relationship.

A special relationship indeed, Matt. It’s intimate, she talks to him about her crushes and asks him for advice on boys then casually confesses love to him.

LAURA: You're not jealous, are you?

MATT: "No."

LAURA: You'll always be my number one love.

MATT: "I know.”

Fjord is an orphan who was looking for parental figures. Vandren was a mentor and father figure, and it was through Vandren that Fjord gained his connection to Uk’otoa. The Wild Mother felt Motherly to Fjord and in Talks Travis said that when Matt first described the feeling his thoughts were on like have I found my Mother somehow. To Fjord religion is a divine parent, an authority figure who provides guidance and direction, and in the case of the Wild Mother love and support for him. 

Jester has never seen the Traveler as a ‘dad figure’. He’s just her best friend and based on her behavior towards him and jealousy towards his other followers, and the number of love songs on Laura’s playlist, I’m pretty convinced that Jester is IN LOVE with him. 

(I don’t know if that feeling is required. Given they grew up together with him in the form of another child and the fact Artagan is actually ancient, I think he sees her more like a little sister. This might be why he was so confused when she grabbed his face and leaned in like she was about to kiss him despite the fact that like she’s flat out told him that he’s her number one love and requires constant reassurance that she’s his favorite and acts like a schoolgirl with a very obvious crush)

And again, all of this may not be healthy or ideal for Jester. She might get hurt. However, I think in order to grow the relationship has to run it’s course no matter what happens. Artagan not only acted completely selflessly by kicking her off of him rather than face the possibility that she’d have to choose between him and or friends or be banished with him but like - he apologized to her. 

An actual, real, non-manipulative apology. He admitted he was manipulative and he’s sorry and when she tries to play it off as it’s fine, he says he doesn’t want to defend himself. He’s sorry.

That’s growth.