#apparently i have a thing for dealmakers lol

[crowfromfoggyforest]

Oh no please no

I was gonna watch hazbin hotel right before i watch s7 of ouat... now i'm thinking it might not be a good idea

Pfft, like Alastor wasn't giving me enough Rumplestiltskin vibes, he went 'I'll do you something reaally, really specific. You'll owe me. A favour :)'

[the-kipsabian]

is kip sabian a tumblr sexyman

//kinda heavily edited 7/28/23. im trying to be more neutral about this, still keeping this within just the on-screen character. added in a few more things that are on the list linked below, so the results have actually kinda drastically changed now these are still just my opinions and ofc this doesnt negate how hes really perceived, its just interesting to see this being called out so many times but when you put actual evidence on it, boy how the tables turn lmao

so we all have probably heard the question by now

seeing this post on my dash, i have found resources now to see for myself, collect data and give you the actual result to this burning question

i got you tropes, my takes on them and whether they apply to him under the cut. things to note, this is my personal view tho im trying to keep it neutral, and im only tackling the on-screen character as its been portrayed on tv and some other special occasions when it has specifically shined through (take him invading ocs streams for example)

green is yes red is no yellow is maybe anything in italics are an edit from the original post

4th wall blurring - technically wrestling is already very blurred lines, but take the kip/oc feud for example and the lengths he took it to on social media, twitch etc. outside the ring

Androgynous - arguable, its the eyeliner for me bro. that and the way he carries himself. currently this also includes the hair/hair colors and the eye shadow. gender is a social construct

Animal theming

Angst - it depends how you view it. its not like full blown angst sadness, but it sure does exist, especially with how he talks about himself tbh

Bait - he just organically formed into this shape. i dont believe he specifically designed this style or characteristics to make himself be perceived as a tumblr sexyman

British

Burton

Capitalist

Chaoslord

Chronokinetic

Criminal

Cosmic

Clown

Controversial - i dont know why some of yall hate him so much but apparently people do so. whatever

Deadpan snarker - he can be, but not to a point of a defining character trait

Dealmaker

Detective

DILF - not yet

Distinctive voice - so the source list updated this to feature catchphrases and yes. "embrace the change", "time doesnt heal it changes you", "underrated and over it". you get the deal

Divorced

Dominating - there are cases. but mostly i think hes just a pathetic fool idk. but also this is a theming in wrestling in general so like. go figure

Duality - with and without the box, there is a difference

Egotistical

Eldritch - only in fanon i think ive seen this one. and partially personally applied this one lol (tho i mean idk if we get the box back in some form we might see more hints about this so it might turn into a maybe!!)

Eye imagery

Fanon splintering

Forest Dweller

Gay/LGBTQ+ coded

Girlboss

Glowing neon

Goo

Himbo - okay listen. as much as i would LOVE to mark this one as a solid yes, since we are strictly talking about boxman era and after on-screen kip, this doesnt stand, as he doesnt show himbo behavior on camera. im keeping it as a maybe tho, just for the sake of showing that im aware and i care <3

Hot-headed

Intelligence - also counts for the sub category smartdumb. an idiotic mastermind

Johnlocked - dont get me wrong, ive seen ships, but i dont think its ever been super extensive or overpowering. yall need to work harder lol. unfortunately despite my personal bias and seeing its growth in popularity, i still cannot mark this even as a maybe

Knifemurder

Mad scientist

Magnificent bastard - im just gonna copy the definition here. "As per TV Tropes, a Magnificent Bastard is a "villain (or morally gray character at best) portrayed as confident, charming schemers who thinks on their feet, outsmarts their competitors with style and grace, and remains graceful even in the event of defeat"."

Marked canon/fanon divergence

Monster features

Mysterious - boxhead in the crowd for months building intrigue + the unadvertised meet and greets at events. plus seemingly extensive lore we never get/got, unexplained box mysteries, etc.

Neurodivergent - i was thinking about excluding this, but he talks about his adhd so openly PLUS a big part of boxman came from the depression and anxiety of when he was on the shelf after surgery so. it counts for me

Nonhuman

Object head

Obscured face - technicality, but i count it as he wore the box for so fucking long. we didnt see his actual face for literally a year

Obsessive - HAVE YOU SEEN HOW OFTEN HE TWEETS AT OC i rest my case

Oncelerization

Pale twink - im making a personal decision to say no on this as none of the definitions really hit the mark like, at all. literally the only ones on the list are 'young' and 'dude' like. nope

Parental figure

Parental issues

Pathetic - A THOUSAND TIMES YES

Perpetual smiler - he gets the shit kicked out of him in the ring and still fucking laughs at it on the spot

Power

Power of love - yall have seen penelope, right?

Religious imagery - no, but marking sub category demonic as a maybe since connections to penelope

Retro - this is interesting, im putting it down as maybe since its not really showing but the current design choices with the grayscale gear makes me think about old timey stuff

Robot

Royalty

Scars

Secret agent

Short

Tall - im withdrawing this one, since the definition is "really/abnormally tall" and hes only 5'11 so. this was marked as a 'maybe' before

Teacher figure

Theme song

Thin - "characters that are fairly slim but dont fit under pale twink" i can accept this lol

Traitor/Twist villain

Twisted freaking cycle path

Unkempt

Upper class - i dont necessarily consider it but i guess. keeping this as a maybe since the suit aesthetic is very high class so

Urban legend aesthetics - CRYPTID RIGHTS FOR KIP

Villain/Morally gray/Refined villain/Technically antagonist

Well-dressed/Suitguy/Long coat - suit, pinstripes, long coat. i kind of want to also say the alt fashion counts here since he can be very emo but you know

White twink humanization - all im asking is that you dont humanize that box. please

White hair

29/75 40/75 6/75

final thoughts:

so i see where this thought comes from. he definitely hits like some of the biggest tropes (fancy british man with an object head, a stupidly catchy theme song and catchphrases, a hot wife and a plan to dominate orange cassidy the world), but we are also missing some obvious ones like him being just a stupid murder whore so like. go figure

this is a very subjective list im aware, there are a few things that could probably be seen differently but i, as a self proclaimed Expert And Conspiracy Theorist In The Kip Sabian Space™, will hold this belief system until someone tells me otherwise lmao

anyways this was just for fun dont take this as seriously as i did the first time around lol. enjoy, just dont argue with me. if you need any tropes need explaining, look at the link above and/or just ask and i'll let you know what i was thinking with marking them if there arent notes explaining or if they are confusing

✌

[katoska]

Yeah that's what I meant by "the eventual understanding that he'll leave if she asks". I wanna see more fake banishments, and I want him to honor them despite not having to, after he pulls whatever attention-grabbing stuff he thinks is impressive/romantic. That church scene altered my brain chemistry and I need to see more wooing, dammit. She spent 30mins with him in both movies altogether so far, tops. I want at least a few "newspaper" (the kind that reports on bigfoot) headlines about an uptick of hauntings in Connecticut and which expert medium to call if you have snakes and vermin manifesting in your house or see the local stripey cryptid whom no one can quite agree on what he looks like, as a shortcut to tell the audience that our mains are building a relationship, even if it's half-adversarial and a little bit under false pretenses, as we'll later find out. And ofc I'd also like to see at least one such encounter between the two, and that she's having fun "defeating" him. Whatever the bigger plot may be, if we wanna get to a both-sided romantic wedding, or at least a both-sided romance, they need to spend more time together. Also, as you said, she needs to realise that he can make himself be seen by several living people, but he only cares about being seen by her.

I'm pretty sure writers can't acknowledge reading fanworks at all so they can't be accused of plagiarism. Which imo is dumb. I sure af wouldn't complain, and I wouldn't throw theories out if I didn't see hints in canon in the first place. We got mention of Trade, we got Loopholes to cut a Deceased's time short, and we got consummate Dealmaker Betelguise doing something nice for apparently free. For Lydia's ex, at that. The dots are all there and they aren't mine, I'm just connecting them and extrapolating a very little.

Yeah, movie 1 had a(n almost) wedding. Movie 2 had 3 weddings (well, 1 wedding and two almost weddings). Betelgeuse x Delores, Rory x Lydia, and Betelgeuse x Lydia. If they wanna make a pattern, next movie might actually have be set in Vegas lol.

Personally, I'd be happy enough if Betelgeuse joined the family as their mostly-helpful ghost whom Lydia is sort-of dating but she doesn't wanna put a label on it (abandonment issues + got burned too often). Though they are obviously still very committed, albeit him more obviously so than her, and obviously endgame.

Wrt the curse. The name thing still seems to somewhat apply. He could hear Delia call him and came on the second mention of his name, voluntarily. Idk if that's part of the same curse that keeps him out of the living world unless called and which marriage could fix (cause divorce apparently didn't), or just a generic ghost thing though. I obviously want to believe it's the latter. Maybe they all can feel when someone's calling out to them, or maybe Betel himself just happens to be very psychically gifted. No one said you have to be anywhere near the model fo Betel to hear you call him, after all (Lydia should have tried it in Jeremy's room rather than go all the way back home). He managed to keep a connection to Astrid after she said his name twice, too. At least, I think that's how he knew about Dostoyevsky. Seems more perk than curse, tbh.

And now I'm imagining Lydia "banishing" Betelgeuse so often in front of witnesses that his name becomes too well-known in the living world, like Bloody Mary. He'd hate that because it'd be annoying, and his annoyance would be both entirely his own fault and ironic considering his desperation to be called on in movie 1, and it could be what forces him to out himself as free bc it's either that or having to do at least two shows per night ("I won't do it. I won't"). Would fit in with the probable title of movie 3, too, right? And it would be good if he were forced to ask Lydia for help for once. Like giving him her last name helping him to very publicly demonstrate that he might come when called, but won't leave upon hearing the magic words anymore, not even if they come out of involuntarily-famous-medium Lydia Deetz's mouth, so people better think twice. Cause he'll only leave once he's done with you or if Lydia (or Astrid) asks him too. And those two have better things to do than rescue idiots who are trying to summon poltergeists for funsies. Which means that anytime Lydia does show up afterwards to watch deal with B's antics, it'll be of her own free will, maybe to consume a nice candlelit dinner cooked in some possessed idiot's (very nice, cause I'm sure Betelgeuse would only pick the best locations for a date haunting) kitchen. Which means if he starts possessing some Elvis impersonators in Vegas, she could take that as the invitation/proposal that it would be intended as, rather than a hostage situation. Cause she can't actually force him to get out of the Elvis guy, or to get an actual priest instead of the Elvis guy (Elvis can stay as witness though). But she knows he will, if she asks.

Betelgeuse and marriage theory

A Beetlejuice head-canon/theory I have (warning, it's somewhat "Beauty & The Beast" coded 🌹🥀).

Having died poisoned on his wedding night, Betelgeuse's soul is bound by the ritual of marriage.

We already know he will be able to reenter the mortal world if he marries a living person (due to the rules of the afterlife and whatnot), but here's where my head-canon starts:

Bound to the ritual of marriage, if he marries someone he loves, who truly love him back, dead or alive, his soul will be freed and he will be able to pass on to the great beyond next to his beloved (once his beloved passes away as well, assuming she happens to be currently alive *hint hint*). This person has to wear Delores' ring and accept and love Betelgeuse as is. She has to fall in love with his soul. Only loving him truly, wearing the ring, and sealing the deal with a kiss will release him, and that way, in the end, both his soul and his beloved's (it has got to be Lydia, please) can move on peacefully into the great beyond and exist without curses or attachments.

Totally a fantasy in my head because there's no way something like this would happen in canon much to the sadness of my little heart lol, but I thought I'd share it with you all. And who knows, maybe if there's a third movie they will explore what it is about Betelgeuse's character that is so attached to the concept of marriage. Because, listen, maybe the ritual where a ghost marries a living person and can materialize in the living world is something that is bound to the rules of the afterlife, and detailed in the Manual for the Recently Deceased, but the symbols and ritual of marriage is something intrinsic to the character of Betelgeuse itself.

He died on his wedding night, for starters. He was tricked by Delores and fell for her immediately. One could argue he fell quickly because she is so gorgeous and no doubt manipulated him into believing she loved him, and that's definitely part of it, but also, (and I have no doubt about this one), he believed her and fell for her immediately because Betelgeuse wants to be loved. He's a romantic underneath it all, and he wants to love and be loved. He might have been desiring it for a long time, failing to find love throughout his life until he met Delores.

He may exude self-confidence (maybe even to a delulu extent lol) and present himself in this very raunchy way, but inside, I'm sure he desires a genuine love; he wants to love someone and be loved truly. And he died, murdered by his bride on the night of his wedding. Betelgeuse was murdered on the night that should have been the happiest of his life, and his desire for love and a wedding stayed with him beyond the grave, now stained with blood and betrayal and a curse that can only be broken, in my head-canon/theory, by marrying someone who truly loves him, whom he truly loves.

Marriage is definitely a very important theme in Beetlejuice, so it'd be interesting if there's something more underneath it, which could be explored in the next movie if we are so lucky to get it.