#apparently Rhea dgaf about the western one

[randomnameless]

You made a lot of interesting points about the Western and Eastern Church!

Given that we don't know jack about the Eastern Church save that they have little to no actual influence bar lipservie, and brag about not having a military but then cry to Garreg Mach when the Lord that is supposed to protect them takes a dump when pirates raid their cities, I can see them being a "branch" of the Western Church that left when Leicester became independant, and settled there.

That being said, ultimately the game(s?) don't give us enough material to work regarding the regional churches branches and their respective influences in each country.

Take the Kingdom, the Western Church hates Rhea's guts.

And yet, Mercie, who was taken in a Kingdom church, appreciates Rhea, much like the so-called people who would be upset if she died, or in Nopes, who would give Dimitri shit if he let her die/didn't grant her asylum.

So the Central Church's influence is strong enough in the Kingdom to have people not follow their regional church's doctrine, and instead follow the Central one. Hell, given how Duscurians are shat on because of the Tragedy, and not because they are foreigners, I'd say from both the playable cast (yep, even Ashe who should be more in touch with the Western Church's teachings given how devoted to them Lonato is) and the randoms we meet, the Central Church's teachings are more important/followed than whatever the Western Church's spouting.

Nopes reveals the Alliance apparently doesn't give two shits about the Church, since no one bats an eye at going after Rhea's head, even if Judith was previously said to be a believer. Is it because nobles only pay lip service to the Church (according to Lorenz in FE16) or because the Eastern Church has more influence than the Central one, idk.

As for Adrestia, we know some churches exists and some believers live there, but given how Adrestia has very cold relations with Garreg Mach at the beginning of the game and got rid of the Southern Church several years ago...

FWIW, Greg is supposed to be the minister of religion, and given what Nopes did with his character, I can't say he's very fond of the Central Church's teachings.

Now, about Lorenz,

but Lorenz’s instruction would not have been from the Central Church

Lorenz could, depending on different hypothesis, believe that "seiros tenets promotes isolationism" since it's something preached by the eastern church, or believe it's the doctrine of the central church...

But then, canonically, Lorenz goes to Faerghus, in the Firdhiad School of sorcery.

Now, from Nopes we know that his time there was short because the Tragedy happened a few days after his arrival, so he returned home fast.

And yet Lorenz travelled to another country, I suppose, learnt about the noble houses in said country (even if he mistook Annette for a maid) and might have learnt that, hey, the King is currently absent because he is in Duscur, y'know, a place not in Fodlan.

Aka isolationism my rear, King Lambert went to meet important people in Duscur.

The Kingdom's known for being more pious/religious than the other two nations, so if the Western Church is hammering their xenophobic shit... why would the King ignore them and still go to Duscur? Or could it be that the Central Church also preaches in Faerghus, and didn't see anything wrong with this journey?

Then, in GM, Lorenz meets Ferdie. Of course they talk about frivolous things because that's FE16's tea time supports for you, but Aegir is basically the largest harbour in Fodlan - I bet they're not only welcoming ships from Leicester and/or Faerghus.

Through his background, Lorenz would know that "church tenets preach isolationism" is pegasi dung, unless everyone he met supposedly pays lip service to the "teachings" he learnt, even King Lambert himself...

Or, what he learnt about "isolationism" was nonsense and he realised the CoS wasn't promoting this at all.

Again, Lorenz is bride hunting during the pre timeskip, are we really supposed to believe that he only noticed Petra and Shamir's existence thanks to Claude's "Petra and Dedue exist and were our classmates!" speech? Like he wouldn't have investigated Petra's past to know if she was worth courting or not and learnt she was the Princess of Brigid - especially since she never hides it ?

I'd have been less critical of Claude "Cyril plz be my token Almyran I need to make a point here" discussion if, instead of Lorenz, we had Hilda make that point, especially since her House is fending Almyran's parties every thursday.

But, I suppose someone needed to swallow an idiot plot ball to make Claude look smarter in comparison, and Lorenz is the designated GD buttmonkey so... even if it doesn't make any sense, he needed to be the one "corrected" by Claude, even if, Lorenz should be the one to know the most about Fodlan's houses, and maybe know that House Dominic thrived on trade with Albinea, that Ferdie's duchy thrives due to the existence of the largest harbour in the country, that Marianne's dad became rich by trading with foreigners, that Petra might have made a suitable bride but her status in the Adrestian Empire means she's a hostage not "worth" involving House Gloucester with, etc etc.

So while in a vacuum Claude's "I Lorenz was wrong about the CoS and isolationism" is welcome in this verse where self-reflection is as rare as a good Lyn level up, it falls apart when you take the entire context in consideration, aka how Petra might have been recruited in the GD class and how no one needed Claude to realise she and Dedue existed, or even Raphael pointing him out that the CoS cannot promote isolationism at all, given how some of the dishes they have involve ingredients that aren't found in Fodlan!

Tl;Dr : while Lorenz's instruction in "religious stuff" wouldn't come from the central church but most likely the eastern church, he would have realised that the "xenophobia is mandated by the church!" tenet was nonsense when he first visited Firdhiad, or actually went to Garreg Mach, during the pre timeskip.

Guys, I think I figured out why Claude believes the Central Church preaches isolationism.

Look at the history of the Alliance. When they broke off from the Empire, the were conquered by the Kingdom and ruled by them for 60 years. When they managed to become independent, they set up the roundtable which resulted in the Church not having the same sort of power within their region. But thinking about this, the Eastern Church would have broken off from what we know as the Western Church. And said Western Church is fanatical... and xenophobic, wanting to kill Rhea in the present because she allows foreigners at Garreg Mach. They call Rhea an apostate because of what she does in her own jurisdiction, but we also know that TWSITD have infiltrated and manipulated the Western Church for their own purposes and those guys are racist as fuck.

Now think about it, Lorenz believes the Church preaches isolationism, but he’s from the Alliance. The scripture he would have gotten is from the Eastern Church that broke off from the Western Church. We don’t know when TWSITD first began using the Western Church, and for all we know it could the result of difficult relations with their neighbours over the centuries, but Lorenz’s instruction would not have been from the Central Church.

And look at what the third reason is for why there was a ban on a printing press. “3. Risk of intensifying disparity between church branches.” Different branches of the Church preaching different messages. It’s saying that the Church of Seiros isn’t a monolith.

The Eastern Church must have held onto the xenophobic beliefs of the Western Church when they splintered off, not helped by 40 years of Almyra invading them. Claude saw this, heard what the Eastern Church was saying, and took Rhea’s non-interference as acceptance. But then you look at what Lorenz says at the end of Flower, the nobles aren’t actually religious and merely using the Church as a means to legitimize their power. Thus, while the Eastern Church preaches isolationism, the nobles of the Allaince don’t care and do trade with other nations. As a result, Lorenz can believe the Church says not to interact with other nations as that’s what the Eastern Church says, all while nobles in Alliance territory do just that.

That scene where Claude questions Lorenz on this is also the scene where he talks about getting to know people rather than jumping to conclusions. He points the diversity at Garreg Mach despite the teachings of the Eastern Church, and the whole deal with the Western Church during White Clouds would only further serve giving Claude evidence against Rhea being racist. In the end, Claude actually ends up talking to Rhea, learning about her, and ends up believing Byleth needs to be just like her in giving the people salvation. Just get rid of the racism from the Western and Eastern Churches. Not only that, Claude ends up fighting the people who were controlling the Western Church and who committed genocide against Rhea’s people. Claude wants to fight racism, and Verdant Wind sees him go after the actual racists rather than the ones he assumes are racist. He also realizes Almyra doesn’t do it’s people any favors acting like a bunch of drunken frat boys.

[randomnameless]

What do you think about the take that there's no freedom of religion in Fodlan because there's a woman who worships a foreign deity in the abyss?

More or less the same thing than the take about Colonel Sanders being jailed in Garreg Mach because Rhea wants all those chicken tenders for herself.

More seriously,

Bar Claude speaking with his ass, and apparently Leonie being worried that the Church might be crossed with Claude mentionning he's not religious - even if in Leicester it's pretty much known far and wide that the nobles adopt a pious font for PR - I prefer believing the words of, you know, the CoS officials aka Rhea and Seteth on that matter, the CoS's doctrine - at least for the Central Church - doesn't forbid practice of other religions or faiths.

The Western Church being xenophobic most likely would be pissed at, say, random duscurian person worshiping Duscurian gods, but as for the central church? They, just, dgaf.

Now, in the Abyss, there's a pagan statue - from a Dagda deity per Shamir in Nopes! - and a woman praying there, who was apparently harassed for not following the Seiros faith.

But... if freedom of religion was banned :

1/how the fuck this 20 meters tall statue managed to be placed in Fodlan's Vatican's basement without anyone noticing

2/why Seteth and Rhea, when asked, said they don't impose the Seiros faith on people

3/why Leicesterians are allowed to be "pious for show" if religion was so important?

As always with Fodlan, we have some things told by several characters who are playable/talkable in the base game (tfw Seteth mentions how they don't force people to worship first in FEH, and then in Nopes, but nothing in FE16 + Cyril's supports that no one bothers to read because fig him I guess and ultimately they don't matter because Claude can't look like a clown in VW) and they are contradicted by either, flavor text, screening through various lines of hidden dialogue or, flat out, lines said in the gacha or the musou spin off.

Now, about that Dagdan woman, why was she in the Abyss, aka, a CoS shelter ?

Because she worships a different god and that's frowned upon by, uh, the very same church that shelters her? And this church gives her a place to worship her deity?

Or, if we take clues and connect dots from two astral planes, could it make more sense that this person ended up in the Abyss because she was Dagdan, and from Shamir's backstory we know Dagdans aren't that beloved by Fodlan people, after their multiple attempted invasions of Adrestia? Dagdan Woman must have looked for some shelter and found one - as for where or who put that statue here, I can't guess, but given how the Abyss is a place for people who cannot live at the surface without being picked on/harassed/threatened, I suppose the purpose of that statue being there was more in the lines of "as long as you're here if you want to worship your god you can do so" and less in the lines of "I'm so not tolerant at all that I will create a space in my holiest place where you can worship your god, because i hate other religions than my own".

If there is a general point to be made about "freedom of religion" in Fodlan, it's more about the lack of reliable (so, no Claude and his "I'll smash open the land and get rid of its backwards values unless I go to school") info about how tolerant the various countries that compose Fodlan are, and how some people from the CoS aren't on the same wavelength as Rhea and Seteth are.

Do they have some sort of responsability in this matter? Maybe in their hands-off approach to let the regional branches preach what they want or not adopt a stricter control on what is being taught but the game - and most likely that take - isn't bothered by all intricacies of how to conduct a faith/religion, otherwise I'd call a double standard over the CoS being BaD because they don't tell Father McRandom from Leicester to stop making randoms believe they can't have faith in other religion than the Seiros faith, but not calling out Ionius on not acting against Hanneman's brother in law when he fucked his wife so much that she died, or Lambert for Matthias keeping a kid as a hostage, or Claude's Uncle not frowning at Gloucester killing Raph's parents (the nopes retcon notwithstanding).

[randomnameless]

I was browsing a tag (i know i shouldn’t do that) and i read an old post nerding about ancient civilisations and parallels with FE16 which made me glee bcs i love to nerd about history 

But then i was disappointed 

Important Agarthans seem to have greek names (?) so they could be ancient greece, okay why not (the superiority complex over the rest of the world feels adequate but then idk if Socrates (Soloncrates?) would call actual humans beasts or not).

But then it was affirmed that Rhea, not the Nabateans, but Rhea, was Ancient Rome (Romea?). She 1) razed the Agarthans, 2) expanded the Church in the continent and 3) allied with Wilhelm of Adrestia and later Loog who represents the various germanic tribes.

Which made me raise an eyebrow.

1) I’ve already posted earlier about the Sothis/Agartha war but here it seems a bit odd to single out Rhea amidst her people for having rekt Agartha when it was, at most, a collective action of several Nabateans, regardless of the fact that Rhea may or not have participated in the first war.

Also, in FE16, the Nabateans gave their technology to Agarthans, who in turn developed it and turned against them. Ancient Rome was tsun-tsun with their greek neighbours, but it is now commonly accepted that the first romans tried to “copy” or at least were heavily inspired by Ancient Greece to build a national identity. I mean Virgil even wrote a poem to make a Trojan ancestor to what would later become the roman people, and that’s not talking about how the old Roman pantheon borrowed the Greek one but with aliases worse than Danved and Devdan...

In FE16, “Greece” actually borrowed/received their technology from “Rome” but tried to attack “Rome” and failed. “Rome” retaliated, destroyed “Greece” to the point where romans don’t even know what “Greece” was and can only make suppositions about its existence. 

This doesn’t match RL history.

2) Expanding the Church in the continent : this is actually speculation, but afaik, when Adrestia conquered the continent, its religion would have automatically been spread? Still, comparing the Church of Seiros to another religion starting with a C doesn’t really work.

Adrestia was founded by a dude who had been annointed by Seiros herself. The Church, or at least Seiros and her pals, already existed before the Empire. Constantine the Great was the first Emperor to convert to christianity, but he was not the founder of Rome! Christianity became a “state” religion after Constantine. Heck, Julian thought his uncle’s religion was lousy so he returned to a polytheist cult.

In FE16, the only schism between Adrestia (the Empire) and the Church happened after the Southern Church was expelled, giving a good 1000 years of church approved Empire.

Saying Romea expanded the reach of the church through out all of Fodlan isn’t wrong, iirc part of the mediation accepting the Kingdom’s existence is to allow the church to preach in the newly formed kingdom, but i’m not sure it could be tied to RL history, because in Fodlan, Wilhelm walked side by side with Jesus, and Jesus crowned him Emperor. Jesus won against Nemesis. Adrestia’s legitimacy/creation comes from Jesus.

So I don’t think it’s Rhea expanding the reach of the Church through Fodlan, but more Seiros is part of the Empire’s lore, she’s that actual saintly figure who defeated the strongest man ever so everywhere in the Empire tales of Seiros and her deeds are heard of, it makes sense to follow/buy her story. 

Also, if the “religion” the church of Seiros preaches is the rewritten history, people must have “converted” after the unification of Fodlan and yet, if Seirosism is the state religion, and the state is controlling Fodlan, can we say Romea expanded her religion through the continent, or Fodlan, after being conquered by Adrestia, automatically became Seirosist?

It would actually echo the bid to allow the Church to preach in the newly formed Faerghus, if Loog wanted to fig off Adrestia, he might even want to have a different religion than the one from the Empire he came from, hell, the Kingdom even returned to the former naming practices existing before Adrestia. 

The Church would have wanted to make sure that no matter what Loog was doing with his bunch of humans in the North, he would still believe crests are a gift from the goddess, they shouldn’t be misused and if you ever find Macuil don’t murder him to make weapons out of his body.

short story long story : it’s the story of the egg and the chicken, did Seirosism became the leading religion in the continent because Rhea actively preached around, or because it was Adrestia’s state religion? idk.

3) Rome “allied” (well, TC said Rome lorded and traded with germanic tribes until shit hit the fan) with germanic tribes. They could be traded with. But they were not roman citizens. I’m not that well versed in this part of the Roman Empire (even if some part of France was classified as Germania at that time! RIP Franche-Comté T-T). Thing is, Rome never asked for Germania’s help to defeat some enemy, hell, when barbarians invasions happened, it hit Germania first and then Rome.

This is where the Romea analogy falls. 

First of all, Wilhelm became Wilhelm of Adrestia thanks to Seiros who annointed/crowned him, without Seiros there is no Adrestia. (iirc in one of Seiros’ books it is said Seiros makes emperors out of men, and the tradition needs the archbishop to bear witness each time a new emperor is crowned, so i suppose Rhea crowned/proclamed/anointed/made Wilhelm an Emperor).

Rome never had that kind of influence (afaik?) on the various germanic tribes. 

Before Adrestia we had Enbarr and, I guess, several tribes. As I see it (it may be wrong!) Adrestia is made to mirror Rome, sort of. Wilhelm “of Adrestia” set out to conquer unify the world. Now, did Seiros told him to conquer the world or did he came to that conclusion alone, we will never know. And yet, in the time period we’re speaking of (antiquity?), there’s no “Germanic Empire”. Adrestia started as an unified state, not as several tribes. Adrestia thus cannot be likened to “germanic tribes”.

Second, Loog did not receive help from Rhea, but it’s implied (still it’s from the shadow library so i’m not holding it against the TC) he received help from Mole People. 

But from what we know, in the Vanilla game, Loog defeated the Emperor of Adrestia. It is during the aftermath that the Empire, House Charon and the Church negotiated and decided Loog could found his Kingdom. I do not see how Rhea “allied” with the guy, nor, again, what kind of germanic tribe he represents given how he actually got his independance from the Empire to create his own Kingdom.

Then we have another set of facts which are less about history and more about the game, but for the history ones : 

Romea cannot 4) enforce the will of the Church and Western branch rebelling mirrors Rome’s western’s provinces being unruly and Romea gradually losing grasp on Adrestia 5) The Church isn’t completely sacked but still remains in CF to mirror Rome’s “gradual” fall/out of powerlessness (for funsies 6) Edel and the Agarthans make Rome face what they did to Greece and represent the germanic tribes coming after Rome after they managed to free themselves from its influence)

4) Unless I’m mistaken, the most occidental border of the Empire was the Atlantic Ocean?  astérix is a product of french chauvinism 

Northern borders were more problematic, we had Hadrian’s Wall to keep Picts at bay and in the 3rd century the “Saxon Shore” to fend off against invaders coming by the sea. 

Of course around this time there was an important crisis that weakened the Empire, so it might explain why there was unrest everywhere. This crisis saw the birth of the Western Gallic Empire, but also of the Eastern Palmyrene Empire (everyone was happy when Diocletian unified the empire afterwards). After, let’s say, 300ish, the Empire, in general, had difficulties to deal with and keep its borders.

Back to FE, the western church rebelling is actually at odds with Rome, because when it comes to religious stuff, the eastern provinces were the most concerned/active, not the western ones (1st council of nicea was made because of the arian controversy (The Son and the Father are the same entity or not? Discuss) in the eastern provinces). 

Apparently, the Western Church rebels because they don’t like/follow the creed of the Central Church, but if we wanted to keep the Rome analogy, it should have been the Eastern church rebelling. From what we see, it is not because they follow another religion, but they have a difference in doctrine (but then it is muddled because mole people, otoh, it is never said that the western church thinks seiros is a hax or the goddess doesn’t exist, they want to claim lands on behalf of Saint Cichol which means they adhere, at least, to the main dogma about saints) and really don’t like Rhea for some reason. tbh i think some “germanic tribes” converted to arianism but they weren’t the theologists who theorised it

Central Church lost its grasp on Adrestia in 1065 (iirc?) when the southern branch was expelled. Idk if everything was fine and dandy before, but given how Rhea oversaw the construction of Garreg Mach after the WoH and tried to resurrect Sothis with the Chalice, I’d say she already said “peace i’m out” to Adrestia and would just be there for some ceremonies (crowning/being a witness for new emperors i suppose).

I’ve said it earlier, but Adrestia is not supposed to represent the “germanic tribes”, Adrestia is Rome. Adrestia having german names could also mean that the devs were lazy because Gaius Claudius isn’t a funky name, but the HRE was situated in western-central europe. Edel’s rebellion against the central church could mirror HRE and the Reformation, save for the fact that Edel dgaf about the goddess bcs humanity doesn’t need gods or something. So the analogy doesn’t really work...

5) Coming to which, CF!Church is not anything like Seirosism or, i suppose, the former Sothisism cult. Various bloggers already tore this take apart, but the “Church” in post CF-Fodlan seems to be less spiritual and more of an organisation which is overseen by the Emperor. 

I mean, if Edel says humans don’t need gods, what is the Church supposed to do? Fodlan has a cult? A religion? Faith? Faith in what? People are supposed to be free to chose what to believe in, but it is clear that “humans” don’t need gods, so what? You can believe in whatever you want, but not in Sothis because we don’t need her, and fig to the children of the Goddess or fig you if you’re still a follower of Seirosism? Rome still exists nowadays as a capital of a living country, I cannot affirm the Church exists, or if whatever the church of Seiros did is still maintained.

Also, “Rome” as in the Roman Empire (kind of) survived with the Byzantine Empire and the HRE. I don’t think offshoots of the Church of Seiros would be allowed to prosper in CF’s Fodlan.

6)  :)

I cannot remember if Romea’s people (well a civilisation cannot have brethrens it’s not a being!) were turned into various weapons by Socrates and Plato (if they had been blacksmiths i’d have been more interested in philosophy classes i swear) but as far as i know Edel’s Adrestia didn’t wage war against Romea because of her conquests or what she did to Soloncrates/Ancient Greece, nope or to free Adrestia from Romea (especially since Adrestia got rid of the church since 1065). Edel wants to conquer the world and change the “system” in place.

Bonus : About names, yes, the devs validated the “Adrestia is both rome and germany combined” which is as WTF as it seems, and yet, last Emperor from the HRE was named Francis II with his birth name being Franz Joseph Karl which is very far removed from, idk, Trajan being Marcus Ulpius Trajanus. I don’t think the devs thought a lot about names tbh, still, if Emperor Wilhelm might sound “german” and yet his second name Paul, is latin (paulus) so idk. Ionius was apparently a name used in Rome?