#anne lister: christmas 1834

[iredreamer]

I know you’ve posted before how Anne & Mariana spent Christmas together in 1834 and that Mariana tempted Anne unsuccessfully, but have you read Moving Between Worlds? Because the author (excerpting diaries) states plainly that kissing/ grubbling did occur during Anne’s visit (12/24/1834 diary entry: “gratify her passion by one parting grubble”). I take you to be the master at all things real life Anne Lister and Ann Walker so I wanted to get your input. THANK YOU for all your posts, seriously!!

hey :) thank you so much for your message! Yes I’ve read Moving Between Worlds, and I’ve also checked Anne’s diary (from the 22nd of December – when she arrives at Lawton – to the 26th – when she goes back to Shibden) to understand better what happened.

I transcribed AL’s coded parts where she talks about what happened with Mariana during those days. At the end you’ll find what I personally think of this whole thing.

EDIT: I updated the post with parts – coded and not – that even tho are not directly about what happened between them, still help understand the context and what went on during those days. I think that the context and the conversations Mariana & Anne had during this time are quite important to understand why some things happened. The only things I left out in my transcriptions are stuff like “I went from there to there, we visited this lady etc.”, things that are quite mundane.

December 22, 1834 (Monday) > (…) at Lawton at 9 – i.e. 8 ¾ by their clocks – Shewn into M-’s [Mariana] room. And she soon came nervous sobbing, but she got over it pretty soon and well – Had a couple of nice little mutton chops, and then coffee – Mr. L- [Charles Lawton] just came in for a minute or 2 but finding we were still going to have coffee said he had had tea, went back to the dining room and we saw him no more – M- [Mariana] and I sat talking till 11.35 by Halifax – She gave me the history of Martha Booth – not good – her head full of novels that she had read before coming to M- [Mariana] – and her principles spoilt by the bad examples of 2 succession cooks – had been deceitful – was too much set up – Mrs. Duff to give me Martha’s character – M- [Mariana] not to tell me anything – I said if Martha left here, I should have nothing more to say to her – M- [Mariana] then gave me the history of Miss Crewe (…) I never felt less in love’s danger. I thought M- [Mariana] prosy but this was better than the way she talked in at first, despairing & as if the sooner she died the better – she would not listen to my proofs that she herself had had things between us all her own way, however I would not give up the point tho’ I pressed it gently – I was very affectionate, spoke kindly of Mr. Crowe & said I would do anything in the world I could for her but there was no love in my manner or thoughts – I merely thought I was glad this was at an end & that I was as I was – Talked of the Norcliffes & Mrs. Milne’s sarcastic manner which seems to have shewn itself to M- [Mariana] at Scarbro – M- [Mariana] said she always appeared to know all about me whether she did know anything or not – She had talked at Leamington of her great anxiety to see Lady Vere as the most particular friend of her, M- [Mariana] most particular friend! I have guessed right, M- [Mariana] does not want to love the eclat of my friendship (…) M- came upstairs with me to my room & staid ten minutes – a little nervous again & hung on me & went off, talks of giddiness in her head & not living long but I said I should do her good, in fact as I shrewdly hinted I shall not be the death of her. Thank God I am as I am. I thought very little of M- as I came along & never felt more calm – Very fine day – till one tonight wrote all but the five first lines of the day – till 1 ½ wrote 2 pp. to A- [Ann Walker] to go tomorrow – account of my journey – good account of things. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0127]

December 23, 1834 (Tuesday) > (Go by the Lawton clocks) breakfast at 10.20 – then sat talking till 12 – from 12 to 2 walked (about 2 miles) to see a poor man (James Shaw) confined to his bed these 30 weeks for having fallen into a hot salt pan – Luncheon with Mr. L- [Charles Lawton] in his room (I not eating) then sat talking in M-‘s [Mariana] sitting room – Out at 4, for 40 minutes (…) then sat talking in my dressing room till 5.40 – dressed – dinner at 6.10 – coffee – tea… came upstairs at 10 ½ and M- [Mariana] sat with me ½ hour – sealed and gave her my letter written last night to A- [Ann Walker], Shibden, to be put into the post before 9 a.m. tomorrow – annoyed this morning to find I was too late for today’s post – the letters must be there at 9, and the mail goes at 10 – Told M- [Mariana] she had never come to me to see if I was up this morning, she said she would but thought I should not like it – I was rather attendrie this morning, particularly after our walk – She told Mr. Crewe had been with her at Scarbro, glad I had not heard of it in York & that she herself was first to tell me of it – He had said he hoped to her happy with the friend she liked best staying with her at Warmingham, meaning to have me with them – I asked if she did not think this speech plain enough – she said it had not struck her much but at last owned it was pretty plain tho she still says she never was in love with him & wonders if she ever shall be – I calmly said “Oh, yes all that would come” – she told me Mr. C- [Crewe] was very calm on that subject – in telling her a story of a chère amie [dear friend] of Brooke? Grevilles said but he & his friend could very well do without those domestic comforts – she still persists that all her love is for me – I led the conversation to A- [Ann Walker], said I really liked [her], was more than comfortable & that whatever might be said money had nothing to do with it – M- [Mariana] asked if it was true that she had three thousand a year – I said no, but our fortunes would be about equal & that we should have five thousands a year – said I had thought of her the first thing after M-’s [Mariana] break off – I was thankful things were as they were for I was determined to have one & certainly could not have done better – Charlotte said A- [Ann Walker] was not ladylike & she & Mrs. Milne thought she [Mariana] should not be flattered if she saw her successor, but that I could not do without money – M- [Mariana] took all well – said she thought I had done right & perhaps she herself was the cause of it, they wondered – Mr. C- [Crewe] does not like Mrs. Milne – she behaved sarcastically & he expected better things after all the trouble he had taken about Hamlyn – He wished M- [Mariana] to get her uncle & Lou to go to Geneva next summer. M- [Mariana] to join them & then he & his two boys would join them all at Geneva & make a tour for with her uncle there could be nothing wrong. I made no remark. But this explained the passage she read from Lou’s letter that came today, that with a little persuasion she thought her uncle might be got to go to Geneva tho she had preferred Scotland on account of not leaving her mother so far –  This proves M- [Mariana] had thought of the plan & seriously too – perhaps she wished to sound me, what will the world say? She protests she feels towards only as a brother – well nous verrons [we’ll see] – I told her that but for him I might have acted differently – said I read her last letter to A- [Ann Walker] but she did not understand it – I had told all that was necessary but not quite all, that is not of our connection – nor did any know of this or ever would – This seemed to satisfy her – Said I was not quite satisfied with her brother’s conduct about Clifton to his mother in paying with so much difficulty, nor with his management of his wife & that he had latterly left A- [Ann Walker] ten days unvisited by him – but this not to be named any more than the brandy & water drunk by Miss. Bagshaw at Mrs. Bewleys – M- [Mariana] has seemed low today at intervals – it seems she does not now like Mrs. Wilbraham who has interfered with the friendly society etc. Mr. C- [Crewe] says how worldly they all are & he cannot endure them – somehow I do not like him – M- [Mariana] says Mr. C- [Crewe] was never conscious of his feelings towards till L-’s [Charles Lawton?] conduct to him at Mr. Woodsin – 1831 – I cannot quite understand M- [Mariana] – she shews me she is still in love with me – I might have her as heretofore without much difficulty. She says she is glad to see me but talks of the difference there is when my interest is hung on another peg – I asked tonight if I was not as much attached & as affectionate as she wished me to be – she made no answer – I pressed her to say yes & she merely replied “yes, you are very affectionate” – she has kissed me as warmly as she dared venture & given me licence enough if I chose to take it, but in answer “do you love me” my “yes indeed I do” bespoke nothing beyond friendship. The fact is I am really indifferent to her – but she would lead me astray if she could – She will send a present to A- sorry I had proposed it as it was her own intention – L- [Charles Lawton?] & I very good friends but no more – very fine frosty day – no use to look at my thermometer – my dressing room having a good fire in it – wrote all the above of today from 11 ½ to 12 ½ tonight. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0128]

December 24, 1834 (Wednesday) > Fine soft morning – jumped up at 8 ½ on M-‘s [Mariana] coming to call me; and we sat talking in my dressing room ¾ hour (…) M- [Mariana] and I then sat talking in her sitting room till 1 – Luncheon with C- [Charles Lawton]. Letter 3 pp. and 1st page crossed (nice, kind, chit-chat letter) from A- [Ann Walker] her aunt all kindness, but nothing transpired about the contents of her sister’s letter – my aunt not so well as when I left her – if worse would write by the next post – if no letter here, wishes me to call (en passant) at the post office at Manchester – M- [Mariana] and I came and sat talking in my dressing room till 2 – she asked to look at the handwriting and I read her the letter, she looking over me, she said it was a nice simple minded letter – she was better satisfied to have seen it – M- [Mariana] and I went out at 2 to see poor old Molly Owen at the Lodge… and then walked about home till 4 ¾ – Much talk about Mr. Crewe to whom for short I gave the name of short – spoke of Micklestone (pronounced Muckstone) & her living there & our all meeting – she said we should be an odd quartette but seemed in tolerable spirits saying she should now try to turn her thoughts that way – glad to have seen me, for till she saw me, could scarce believe things really as they are – she wondered if she could ever love him, perhaps it would come but thought she should feel as if she was breaking the seventh commandment – very well satisfied with A- [Ann Walker] – should like her all the daytime, could not bear her at night, could not bear to see her go off to bed with me – I kindly parried all this – she said if she had not seen me now perhaps we might have not met again – owned it was much better to have met – I told her & explained quietly that it was all her own doing, that no human influence could have done it but her own – spoke highly of A-’s [Ann Walker] high principle & honorable feeling & that even in any case if it cost me life itself I would not willingly give her up easiness she trusted me & she was right if I could do so much in this case what could I not have done in another, but she, M- [Mariana], had never understood me – I was never half as bad as she thought me – Home at4 ¾ and sat talking inmy dressing room till 5 ½ (…) Told M- [Mariana] servants would always be left in the house at Shibden – if ever she wanted a place to go to, the house would always be at her service – but said gently I would rather she was there alone supposing I was absent – she said she should take Louisa or Ann [Mariana’s sisters] – said I had never liked her family and was sorry for it, but somehow I never could get over my feeling of dislike – I certainly owed them nothing & she said she certainly owed them nothing – dressed – dinner at 6.20 (…) on our leaving the dining room M- [Mariana] and I soon came to my dressing room – She being so low she could not stand it – drank cold water sobbed & was almost in hysterics. Then asked if I loved her “yes” said I “you know I do” we then kissed – our lips seeming glewed together & somehow tongues meeting. She sobbed & said “it is hard, very hard, to be a friend for one who has been a wife” – I was attendrie – we both cried our eyes nearly when we were obliged to go down to tea after nine. She came for a few minutes on going but was quite upset I had to go for Watson to call Eugenie & saw M- [Mariana] almost undressed – I just kiss the back of her neck & came away for she seemed worse seeing me again. It occurs to me that I inadvertently kissed her rather too warmly just after dinner. Was it this that upset her for the night? it is very sad – I am very sorry but my own indifference makes me safer that she thinks. I advised her this morning not to meet Mr. C- [Crewe] at Geneva better go with A- [Ann Walker] & me than anyone I had thought of taking Mr. Brown for A-’s drawing if so M- [Mariana] might return with him, but what I could do very uncertain. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0128 & SH:7/ML/E/17/0129]

December 25, 1834 (Thursday) > M- [Mariana] came a little before eight & staid till nine in bed with me – rather in the pathetics – she cannot get over her love for me – but I behaved with perfect propriety. She said “well” if anything happened to A- [Ann Walker] & Mr. C- [Crewe] would I take her back again – I made no answer till she said “would I not” when I replied “I would not shut the door against you” on which she thanked me & said I was very good. (…) Letter from A- [Ann Walker] (Shibden) my aunt better – 3 pp. widely written – nice letter – properly affectionate – wants me back again – (…) M- [Mariana] said nothing & L- [Charles Lawton] said he [Crewe?] was a scoundrel, of which nobody apparently took any notice – M- [Mariana] mentioned it when we came up to bed, seemed low & nervous, I tried to cheer her – advised her going to London to her uncle & Louisa for a week to see little M- till she told me the history at length of L- [Charles Lawton] & Eliza Lawton – then told her not to be away – said I saw her mind wavered about leaving L- [Charles Lawton] but that she must not do it unless he compelled her for refusing to have the girl to live with them or unless something between him & the girl came out – she had taxed with it, with what the girl said & he declared it was a lie – the girl did not like to be alone with him – he out his tongue unto her moth [mouth?]  which, said M- [Mariana], is you know, the last thing, but one to which I agreed – we talked of how the girl’s mind might be debauched till M- began kissing me & we got on to such tongueing warm work that she got excited. I kept my hands over her clothes & my arms decently round her till the right wandered to queer outside till she took up her petticoats & put it to her & I gave her a thorough grubbling – I think she will have her cousin for it – I certainly felt oddish but no wish to be near to her myself, tho she said in the midst “can you not come near to me for a minute or two” I made no reply but went on never opening my eyes. She asked if I loved her, I merely said “yes”. When I did look at her it was in silence neither as if ashamed nor as if attendri nor caring much. I was grave & silent. She said she was better & hoped I should have a good night. What is the meaning of all this? Can this be the conduct of a pure minded virtuous woman! I despise it – she had tried all ways to upset me – I have done what I have done, but she shall never gain more nor ever I hope a repetition ever of this. I could have done without it but somehow I thought gratify her passion by one parting grubble. It ought not to have been but I will try to turn it to some good account by telling her I shall shew her letters & by keeping out of her way – my respect is gone. – She read me Mr. C-’s [Crewe] last letter long & written at different times according to her request nothing absolutely improper might be read aloud but the understanding between them is evident – How will it end? He is a gambler – I told her today I did not think that right & I was sorry for it – She send’s A- [Ann Walker] little pocket book yet she will try to lead me astray from her! But she shall do no worse & I hope & trust the scene of tonight cannot recur. Is this the chaste & quiet M- [Mariana]? I will keep out to her way & Mr. C–’s [Crewe] too as well as I can. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0129 & SH:7/ML/E/17/0130]

December 26, 1834 (Friday) > Had slept in my clothes – M- [Mariana] came before eight & leaned or lay on the bed till I got up – I don’t think she found out that I was not undress, my night chemise hid all that she seemed in good spirits – said she had had a very good night & hoped I had had one too. I said not much on this part of the subject – she saw that I did not think of last night’s business quite as she did I said let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall – she seemed rejoiced at the sort of victory she thought she had gained & argued against my fancying there was any wrong in it – said it had done her good & she was now much happier – begged me not to abuse her in my heart. I said as little as possible not troubling myself to knock down her arguments but saying the only thing I had thought of as a consolation was the telling her I should show all my letters to A- [Ann Walker]. She made no objections, in fact she could not well make any, she was satisfied to have found as she thought that all her influence over me was not gone – she little dreampt the real state of the case, she had fallen in my opinion she had been too much in the style of Mrs. Milne & I mean to be as little in her way as possible in time to come. She said she still could believe herself belonging to anyone but me – the night before last she had left me in an agony quite wet thro & ill – last night she was calmer & could have done without it if I had not been different. I said nothing against all this but let it pass – she said I do not know what it is was to be obliged to restraint where formerly she had only to ask & have, I merely said I saw how she was on Wednesday night & was on my guard – last night I was off my guard & etc. etc. (…) Went down to breakfast at 11 – Mr. L- [Charles Lawton] had waited to wish me good bye – never so attentive before… off from Lawton at 11.50 (…) and at Shibden at 10.55 – all gone to bed but Cordingley and John expecting me, had come down – A- [Ann Walker] jumped up – and came to me in her dressing gown and cloak, delighted to see me back again – had given up in despair – had tea – the first thing we did was to laugh aloud at her droll figure and the bustle I had made – explained, sat talking – Told her I myself was astonished how little I had thought of M- [Mariana] either going or returning. Very glad to be back again. Mentioned how I had offered her the use of Shibden in the event of L-’s [Charles Lawton] death etc. etc. –   [SH:7/ML/E/17/0130 & SH:7/ML/E/17/0131]

Anne Lister goes back to Shibden the 26th. She’s happy to be back and tells AW that she “was astonished how little I had thought of M- either going or returning. Very glad to be back again.” and then she and AW have sex: “One very good kiss after getting into bed & not long after this another not quite so good but very fair.” (December 27, 1834 – Saturday)

So, to wrap this up… Mariana tries to have sex with AL everyday while they’re together, and AL tries her best to stay away (and I mean, they do what they do but they don’t have sex?? at least for Anne’s way of thinking). Anne writes how indifferent she is to it all and that basically she doesn’t even know why she gave in to Mariana’s attentions (and she doesn’t really seem into it anyway). What I think is this: I see it as a moment of weakness, their relationship is so complex and their dynamic is just so established that I think it was easy for Anne Lister to fall in the old ways with Mariana just because it was what she was used to. Doesn’t seem to me that AL was very happy with what happened, with Mariana’s behaviour or her own behaviour. I’m also very curious about why, in everything I’ve read by any historian, everyone says that AL stayed faithful to Ann Walker, clearly no one considered this thing with Mariana an important fact…

The situation between them was quite complex. There are a lot of grey areas, there is a lot of history between them, and as always Mariana has a strong hold on Anne. We’re talking about real people here, with complex feelings, with contradictory feelings. It is very hard to say one thing or the other about this matter, there is so much complexity in their relationship, in what happens and in what Anne feels that I think that reducing everything to “she was faithful” or “she wasn’t faithful” is not the right way to deconstruct/understand the whole thing.

[bagga-coal]

Brb…

[bicapopart]

Christmas 1834.

[gentlemanjackups]

Mistakes that Anne made...

[katherine-the-so-so]

New chapter up of Christmas 1834 ! Angst, wife drama, ex drama. Anne feels on less than solid ground as she says goodbye to Ann, but she knows she’s gotta sort through the complicated mess of her relationship with Mariana before she can find the clarity she needs.

[guccibootyellow]

Extra Reading for IWOAW

If anybody’s interested in what books- queer, historical, cultural, religious, and spiritual- that have currently inspired me or have been referenced in the au, here is a current list. Again, this is not conclusive; I have way more lined up to read! 😁 I hope you enjoy and maybe feel inspired to read some 💖 (I love reading sm so consider these as book recommendations too haha). 

Queer Reading

Fiction

Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit, Jeanette Winterson

Ash, Malinda Lo

The Color Purple, Alice Walker

The Picture of Dorian Gray, Oscar Wilde

All About Sarah, Pauline Delabroy-Allard

Alice in Leatherland comic series, Zanfrardino & Ramboli

A Woman Appeared to Me, Renée Vivien

Non-Fiction

The Secret Diaries of Miss Anne Lister, Edited by Helena Whitbread

Gentleman Jack: The Real Anne Lister, Anne Choma

Female Fortune: Land, Gender, & Authority, Jill Liddington

Gentleman Jack, Angela Steidele

Presenting the Past, Jill Liddington

No Priest But Love, Anne Lister, Edited by Helena Whitbread

The Ladies of Llangollen: A Study in Romantic Friendship, Elizabeth Mavor

Historical, Cultural, & Religious Reading

Fiction

Anna Karenina, Leo Tolstoy

Sense & Sensibility, Jane Austen

Jane Eyre, Charlotte Brontë

Pride & Prejudice, Jane Austen

Les Misérables, Victor Hugo

Hard Times, Charles Dickens

Camilla, Frances Burney

Emma, Jane Austen

Little Women, Louisa M. Alcott

Bleak House, Charles Dickens

The Stark Munro Letters, Arthur Conan Doyle

The Murders in the Rue Morgue & Other Tales, Edgar Allan Poe

The Christmas Books, Charles Dickens

Middlemarch, George Eliot

Vanity Fair, William Makepeace Thackeray

Shirley, Charlotte Brontë

Mary & The Wrongs of Woman, Mary Wollstonecraft

Northanger Abbey, Jane Austen

Little Dorrit, Charles Dickens

Carmilla, Sheridan Le Fanu

The Winter’s Tale, William Shakespeare

Twelfth Night, William Shakespeare

Non-Fiction

Poverty & Poor Law Reform in 19th Century Britain, 1834-1914, David Englander

The Peterloo Massacre, Robert Reid

Growing Up in Nineteenth Century Ireland, Mary Hatfield

India in the Persianate Age, 1000-1765, Richard M. Eaton

Property, Aristocracy, & the Raj, Ranjit Sen

Nineteenth Century Ireland, D. George Boyce

Jane Austen’s Letters, Edited by Deirdre Le Faye

The Fall of the Asante Empire, Robert B. Edgerton

An Era of Darkness, Shashi Tharoor

The Age of Revolution, Eric Hobsbawm

Captain Swing, Eric Hobsbawm & George Rudé

Religious Reading (Historical, Informational, & Scriptures)

Hinduism for Dummies, Dr Amrutur V. Srinivasan

Hinduism: A Very Short Introduction, Kim Knott

Ramayana: A Retelling, Daljit Nagra

Hinduism: An Introduction, Owen Cole & V.P. Hermant Kanit

On Hinduism, Wendy Doniger

The Catholics, Roy Hattersley

Awakening of the Heart: Essential Buddhist Sutras and Commentaries, Thich Nhat Hanh

The Upanishads, Translated by F. Max-Müller and revised by Suren Navlakha

Cultural Reading

Brit(ish), Afua Hirsch

Orientalism, Edward W. Said

Secret Bedford, Paul Adams

Extra Influences/Reading

Lorna Doone, Richard Blackmore (historical appropriate romance)

Frankenstein, Mary Shelley (for the writing style)

Dracula, Bram Stoker (for the writing style)

The Tale of Steven, Rebecca Sugar (for additional character references)

The Count of Monte Cristo (on its uncompassionate treatment of women and my references to that in the book)

Moll Flanders (additional historically accurate reading)

[meret118]

Wow, they've really ruined Gentleman Jack this season. It's like they're deliberately making her as unlikeable as possible. The cheating is completely OOC for the Anne in the show IMO, and never happened in RL either. Nor have I read of her treating her sister so badly. And what's going on with her eyebrows? The conservative politics and snobbishness are accurate though.

Yes, Anne’s visit to Mariana at Lawton Hall in Gentleman Jack season 2, episode 4 was indeed inspired by historical facts.

After Ann moved into Shibden Hall, Mariana felt the need to clarify where they stood and invited Anne to stay over Christmas of 1834.

Anne, too, felt the need to clear the air and visited Lawton Hall alone, where she was drawn back into her complicated past with Mariana.

After sleeping in separate beds the first night, Mariana put Anne to the test the next morning.

However, Anne Lister made it clear early on in her relationship with Ann that she was after loyalty and long-term commitment and, while Mariana did try to tempt Anne, she did not break her oath to Ann.

“M – came a little before eight and stayed till nine in bed with me – rather in pathetics – she cannot get over her love for me – but I behaved with perfect propriety," Anne confided in her diary.“

"Anne returned to Shibden Hall a loyal ‘husband’, late at night," wrote Angela Steidele of the visit in Gentleman Jack: A Biography of Anne Lister.

--------

Spoiler warning for possible future eps in the rest of the article.

[bagga-coal]

Well excuse me while I anxiety vomit into my madeira 🤢 erg… I’m gonna love and HATE this upcoming season aren’t I?! Knowing the calibre of Sally Wainwright’s scripts, it’s gonna be a runaway mine cart of drama! Just had to re-read the transcription of Xmas 1834 and bracing myself. 😬🥲😓

[bagga-coal]

I’ll make sure to have my fire blanket within easy reach. She’ll be ‘right 🤣

[bagga-coal]

So THAT’S why Anne practiced playing the flute! Insert debate on who really played who in their relationship! Go! Also I can’t wait to see the drama unfold in season 2! 🤓

[iredreamer]

Hello! I have been reading your analysis of the real Anne Lister, and in light if what happened in episode 4, I wanted to ask if there’s anything there about Anne cheating in her wife with Marianna? Did it actually happen, and, if so, did Anne ever regret it?

hey, if you’re interested about what happened and also some of my thoughts on the whole thing, you can read more about it here: #christmas 1834.

Here you can find more transcriptions of the days prior and after Anne going to Lawton + the comparison between Anne and Ann’s diary of those days.

[iredreamer]

Master-post: Anne Lister content on this blog.

During this past year I’ve been collection info, transcribing journal entries and answering questions about Anne Lister. I thought it was time to properly tag everything...

This is a “master-post” with everything that is currently on this blog about the real Anne Lister.

My tags are mostly organized by topic since a lot of the discussions we’ve had during this time are focused on meanings and interpretations rather than un-edited transcriptions of the journals. Journal entries will also have a chronological tagging system (by year).

Anne Lister & Ann Walker: • courtship (#AL and AW: courtship) • reunion (#AL and AW: reunion) • married life (#AL and AW: married life) • anniversary (#AL and AW: anniversary) • problems (#AL and AW: problems) • backgammon (#AL and AW: backgammon) • travelling (#AL and AW: travelling)

Anne Lister (specific topics): • appearance (#anne lister: appearance) • nature (#anne lister: nature) • family (#anne lister: family) • sexuality (#anne lister: sexuality) • sex life (#anne lister: sex life) • oral sex (#anne lister: oral sex) • STI (#anne lister: STI) • her father paying a female prostitute (#anne lister: her father paying a female prostitute) • Christmas 1834 (#anne lister: christmas 1834) • thermometer (#anne lister: thermometer) • tinderbox (#anne lister: tinderbox) • french (#anne lister: french) • “Fred” (#anne lister: fred) • “Gentleman Jack” (#anne lister: jack) • walker pit (#anne lister: walker pit) • tenants (#anne lister: tenants) • politics (#anne lister: politics) • rank (#anne lister: rank)

Anne’s journal: • code (#anne lister: code) • symbols (#anne lister: symbols) • plain hand (#anne lister: plain hand) • earliest journal (#anne lister: earliest journal)

Anne Lister (terminology): • “having a kiss” (#anne lister: having a kiss) • “queer” (#anne lister: queer) • “incurred a cross” (#anne lister: incurred a cross) • “going to Italy” (#anne lister: going to italy) • “grubbling” (#anne lister: grubbling) • “being near” (#anne lister: being near) • “monsieur” (#anne lister: monsieur) • “dinky” (#anne lister: dinky) • “a little play” (#anne lister: play)

Anne Lister &: • Eliza Raine (#anne lister: eliza raine) • Mariana Lawton (#AL and ML) • Miss Browne (#anne lister: miss browne) • Maria Barlow (#anne lister: maria barlow) • Princess Radziwil (#anne lister: princess radziwil) • Madame Galvani (#anne lister: madame galvani) • The Ladies of Llangollen (#anne lister: llangollen)

Ann Walker (specific topics): • appearance (#ann walker: appearance) • mental health (#ann walker: mental health) • eating disorder (#ann walker: eating disorder) • family (#ann walker: family) • birthday (#ann walker: birthday) • “Adney” (#ann walker: adney) • Ainsworth (#ann walker: ainsworth) • the tribe (#ann walker: the tribe) • Ann Walker’s diary (#ann walker: diary) • after Anne Lister’s death (#ann walker: after AL death)

people (general): • Anne Lister (#real people: anne lister) • Ann Walker (#real people: ann walker) • Marian Lister (#real people: marian lister) • Aunt Anne Lister (#real people: aunt anne lister) • Jeremy Lister (real people: jeremy lister) • Rebecca Lister (real people: rebecca lister) • Mariana Lawton (#real people: mariana lawton) • Dr. Stephen Belcombe (#real people: dr steph belcombe) • Aunt Ann Walker (#real people: aunt ann walker) • Cordingley (#anne lister: cordingley) • Sam Sowden (#real people: sam sowden) • George Pickles (#real people: george pickles) • John Booth (#real people: john booth) • George Playforth (#real people: george playforth)

places: • Shibden (#topic: shibden hall) • Crow Nest (#topic: crow nest) • Lidgate (#topic: lidgate) • Cliff Hill (#topic: cliff hill) • New House (#topic: new house)

journal transcriptions: • all posts [+] (includes every post with a passage from Anne’s journal) • year: 1806-1814 / 1816 / 1817 / 1818 / 1819 / 1820 / 1821 / 1822 / 1823 / 1824 / 1825 / 1826 / 1827 / 1828 / 1829 / 1830 / 1831 / 1832 / 1833 / 1834 / 1835 / 1836 / 1837 / 1838 / 1839 / 1840

full transcriptions: SH:7/ML/E/26/1 (1806-1814) / SH:7/ML/E/26/2 (Aug-Nov 1816) / SH:7/ML/E/26/3 (Nov 1816-Mar 1817) / SH:7/ML/E/1 (21 Mar 1817-25 Jan 1818)

Transcription blog > @listertranscriptions (here you’ll find the unedited transcriptions I’m working on as a volunteer of the Anne Lister Diary Transcription Project)

I loved sharing, researching and talking with all of you about this brilliant woman. Let’s keep doing it!

[iredreamer]

Based on the livestream with Sally and Suranne do you think the next season of GJ will be sad? When they spoke about the hilltop scene they said, it was a fantasy of what the Ann(e)s hoped marriage would be and season 2 would be the reality. I know they can't sugarcoat things, but just I hope things are balanced.

EDIT: the interview I’m discussing here is on youtube > ALBW Live: Sally Wainwright & Suranne Jones

First of all, just for context, I’m gonna sum up that part of the livestream. The question that led to the hilltop discussion was:

“In many places the script is written in a certain way, but what comes out on screen is very different, and the primary one I wanna talk you about is the hilltop reunion because in the script it says that they hug, but that’s not what happens on screen (…) So, how did that happen? [how the hug ended up being a kiss]”

Sally then says that she didn’t write a kiss in that scene in the first place because she “was very conscious of the fact that in real life they would not kiss outdoors, ever. It would just not happen.” But when they talked about it in rehearsal Suranne or Sophie (Sally doesn’t remember the details) said that that scene was THE scene, it was the big moment: “this is the big climax, they’ve gotta kiss, we’ve got to break the reality of the fact that they would not have done that in public”. [I totally agree with this because, even tho it’s not realistic, the kiss needed to be there to give the characters (and the viewers) a sense of relief and “accomplishment”] At this point both Sally and Suranne say that on the actual day of shooting, when they were on top of that hill with that light and everything, the ending with the kiss just felt right.

And this is what Suranne says: 

“We have to remember where we left them which is on that hilltop and getting married, in secret. And that’s the romance of what they wanted. So, at that moment, that’s what they thought they were buying into, and that they would just– they’d missed each other and they loved each other– it’s the fantasy of what they think it’s to come. The reality will be series two of how they will deal with that. But if we don’t show the fantasy of what they thought it was gonna be then I don’t know that you can then see the reality because otherwise you’re just playing reality all the time. So, even if it was some kind of dream-like sequence, it’s what was in their hearts at that moment so it was worth playing.”

Suranne is saying that that’s the “fantasy” the “romance” because what we saw on that hilltop is not realistic at all, at all. And we have to remember this. When she says that in series 2 they’ll face the reality of what marriage is, it makes me think that we’ll see how hard and not always happy and easy and “romantic” it was for them to live like a “married” couple in the 19th century.

After Anne Walker moves to Shibden there are a lot of things that happen that are not “easy” for them like: AW’s family trying to persuade Ann to leave Shibden, anonymous letters and articles on the paper mocking them and their union, public attacks to scare and intimidate them, fights about money and wills, etc. etc. This is the hard, not easy, not romantic and realistic part of their marriage. And I think we’ll get all of it. It’s as if in that hilltop scene they gave them (and us too) what they wanted, what they needed in that moment: the freedom and the openness to live, fully, their love, to show it, to display it and not hide it. To celebrate it. But it will not be like that in series two, at least not all the time. They’ll have to face the harsh truth of having to hide their feelings and emotions all the time while fighting for what they want and the kind of life they want. They’ll have the luxury to be and feel free only inside 4 walls and a closed door. And yes, that is sad, but I hope that the show will not turn completely dark and still have those fun and light moments that we all love. I’m sure we’ll have some domestic Ann(e)s, I’m sure of it, Anne’s journals are full with little cute domestic scenes of her and Ann Walker.

Sally also said that Anne Lister will be “less likable” than she was in season one (Suranne made some comments about this too), this is also something that could potentially make season two more “sad” or more “dark”. But Sally also said that she’ll always be on Anne’s side, and, tbh, that’s why I feel like at the end everything will turn out alright.

I’m with you anon, I hope things are balanced.

And, to close this long answer, let’s talk briefly about the elephant in the room – this is gonna be a spoiler so stop reading if you don’t wanna know – Sally confirmed that Christmas 1834 is gonna be in series 2. And I just wanna say that I’m kinda happy that Sally said that episode 4 is gonna be all about that. The fact that it’s all gonna be squeezed in one episode makes me think that all that drama is gonna be resolved pretty quickly. And also, I’m really looking forward to how that Christmas 1834 ended: “A– jumped up and came to me in her dressing gown and cloak, delighted to see me back again – had given be up in despair. Had tea – the 1st thing we did was to laugh aloud at her droll figure and the bustle I had made – explained, sat talking – told her I myself was astonished how little I had thought of M–, either of going of returning – very glad to be back again – mentioned how I had offered her the use of Shibden in the event of Charles’s death”.[SH:7/ML/E/17/0131] And then, the next day starts with: ”One very good kiss after getting into bed & not long after this another not quite so good but very fair.” [SH:7/ML/E/17/0131] Honestly, I want all of this.

[iredreamer]

Thank you so much for your insights on Anne's life and the details of social norms back then! I really enjoyed reading your posts, and it's absolutely fascinating! I have seen some controversy around her relationship with Ann. Aside from the show of course, what is your perspective on their relationship?(I have read in a couple of places that Anne kind of just "settled" for Ann and her heart really lied with Mariana) So I was wondering, as someone who read about both the Ann(e)s what you think?

hey :) I’m finally answering you! Thank you so much, I’m happy you’re enjoying the history facts haha.

Okay, this turned out to be waaaay longer than I thought, so grab a cup of coffee (or tea I guess) and sit comfortably!

First of all, I think this is a difficult answer because I do feel like everyone could elaborate their own opinion on the matter, and at the end we would never know were the truth really lies. To have some kind of unbiased opinion one should read every single entry of Anne’s diary about Miss Walker and Mariana and compare how she acts with both of them and how she writes about them, and of course that can’t be done (at least for now) so…this is my opinion and it’s of course based on what I have read (my sources: Gentleman Jack: The Real Anne Lister; Presenting the past: Anne Lister of Halifax, 1791-1840; Nature’s Domain: Anne Lister and the Landscape of Desire and Female Fortune: Land, Gender and Authority: The Anne Lister Diaries and Other writings). We should also consider that these two women [Walker and M] were really different from each other and Anne meets them in two very different moments of her life, when she meets Mariana she’s in her 20s and when she meets Ann she’s 41, in twenty years a person changes, their priorities change and even the way of showing love and affection changes.

Okay, now, about the Mariana-Anne-Ann thing…I already wrote something about the matter and you can find it here, it summarizes a little what I think about Anne & Ann’s relationship and also has some facts about how things went between them and with Mariana.

I also posted some extracts from Anne’s 1832 diary in which she says more than once that she feels like she’s falling in love with Miss Walker and that: “I really am getting much more in love than I expected to be again”. So let’s debunk the myth that she didn’t give a flying fuck about Ann Walker.

Now, let’s dive in, I have many thoughts about all of this and I tried to organize them as best as I could but I probably failed, so this might be a bit of a rant and all over the place, I hope you enjoy reading it anyway! And, one more thing, most of this long rant focuses on the Ann(e)s relationship and what are (some of) the things and facts that make me think that they did love each other and that Anne Lister did care about Miss Walker. Here we go…

Anne Lister wanted a wife. She says it many many times. She’s always writing how she wants someone to spend her life with, and when she comes back to Shibden at 41 she wants to settle down. She’s tired of all those women who used her for sex, company and sometimes even money without seriously committing to her (and yes, Mariana is one of those women). I love when at the beginning of Nature’s Domain Liddington writes that Anne Lister could have adapted the opening of Pride and Prejudice: “It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single woman in need of a good fortune must be in want of a wife”. So, she was in search of a wife…

In 19th century marriage was a “legal agreement”, you didn’t marry for love but for money, so, yes, that’s what Anne was looking for in a woman: money and status, but also the desire of a happy life together. When she meets Ann and decides to court her she writes many times how she likes her company and how she wants to make her happy and how happy that would make her in return: “I really think I can make her happy & myself too”. And: “She [Miss Walker] falls into my views of things admirably. I believe I shall succeed with her - if I do, I will really try to make her happy - & I shall be thankful to heaven for the mercy of bringing me home, having first saved me from Vere, rid me of M-, & set me at liberty.” I think the fact that she was looking for happiness and thought she could really achieve it with Miss Walker is often overlooked and it shouldn’t be, it’s an important fact.

One of the things that struck me while reading Anne’s diary is that, when things don’t go as she planned, she writes again and again how she doesn’t care about Miss Walker, how she doesn’t care how things will turn out in the end, how she doesn’t care if Ann decides to commit to her or not, but her actions and her behavior conflict with all that. It seems as if she’s trying to convince herself that she doesn’t care, to protect herself from going through another heartbreak. This is an example, Ann had to give Anne a final answer about their commitment, Anne writes:

November 2, 1832 / We fretted ourselves to sleep last night - she lay on me as usual to warm her stomach & then lay in my arms – but I was perfectly quiet & never touched her queer – the tears silently trickling from my cheeks down hers. Somehow I was shockingly attendri [softened] tho’ perpetually saying to myself ‘Well, I care not how she decides…’. On awaking found myself as tearful as ever (…) We wept (& kissed) – I thanked her & she left me. (…) Both of us attendries & the tears starting perpetually I said my mind was made up for the worst – she said ‘Well, but she had not given her answer yet’…. She would (& did) mend my gloves – begged me to promise to let her have a night-chemise for a pattern – but she saw I declined promising. She hoped she should do many more things for me – never knew till now how much she was attached to me. I made no reply… she hung upon me & cried & sobbed aloud at parting… ‘Well’, said I to myself as I walked off, ‘a pretty scene we have had, but surely I care not much & shall take my time of suspense very quietly & be easily reconciled either way’.

The most important fact (I think) that gives us some insight on how Anne felt about Miss Walker, is that Anne was the only one who genuinely cared about Ann’s health. Anne Walker’s mental health was really bad but Anne stayed close to Miss Walker and helped her for months, trying to make her feel better, trying to restore her health. At that time the engagement was off, so it’s not like she [Anne Lister] was acting like that because she hoped her kindness would convince Ann Walker to marry her, it’s not like she was doing it for the money, she was doing it because Ann needed her. In her diary she says how the situation is unbearable for her, but still, she doesn’t leave Ann’s side. Why do this? It was all off, she didn’t have any obligation to look after Ann. Why take such responsibility? Why stay in a situation that threatened her happiness and mood if she didn’t care?

Anne Lister writes, again, how she doesn’t care about Miss Walker but then ends up crying when the thought of her crosses her mind: “Seeing her always unhinges me…I was low and in tears at dinner and could not get her out of my head and why? For if I had her what could I do with her?” Come on…it’s hard for me to think that the sadness she felt was only because things didn’t go as she planned, it’s hard for me to think that she cries only for the money. Do we really have to think her that cold? I think Anne couldn’t stay away from her really: “This girl, without really having my esteem or affection, somehow or other unhinges me whenever I see her…“.

When they see each other again, after being away from each other for 10 months (during that time they kept a correspondence even if it wasn’t a direct one), they are very happy to reunite and they end up together again: “Much talk last night till 4 this morning and then not asleep for a long while. She [Miss Wlaker] repented having left me”. Anne Walker starts talking about wanting to commit again and at the end they marry each other. Was their journey an easy one? No. Was it an happy one? Not always. But I do believe they cared for each other.

And I just wanna say, in those 10 months they spent apart, Anne Lister never tried to find a serious partner, she was always flirting and shit because that’s who she was, but she always wrote how she didn’t want to go too far with anyone and she just kept thinking about Ann Walker, even if she didn’t want to think about her, even if it was all off. She worried when letters about Ann Walker stopped coming. I mean, come on…

So, fast forward to their marriage and what happened after it. Mariana tried to tempt Anne but with no luck. Anne went to visit her for Christmas and this is what happened, from Anne Lister’s diary:

December 23, 1834 / I led the conversation to A- [Ann Walker]; said I liked [her], was more than comfortable and whatever might be said, money had nothing to do with it. M- [Mariana] asked if it was true that she has three thousand a year - I said no, but our fortunes would be about equal and that we should have five thousand a year… I was thankful things were as they were, for I was determined to have [some]one and certainly could not have done better.

December 25, 1834 / M- [Mariana] came to me a little before eight and staid till nine in bed with me - rather in the pathetics - she cannot get over her love for me - but I behaved with perfect propriety

Anne comes back home to Ann Walker (they were already living together, Ann Walker moved in at Shibden Hall after their marriage, going against her family) I think they’re cute:

December 26, 1834 / A- [Anne Walker] jumped up & came to me in her dressing gown & clock, delighted to see me back again - had given up in despair. Had tea - the 1st thing we did was to laugh aloud at her droll figure & the bustle I had made - explained, sat talking - told her I myself was astonished how little I had thought of M-, either of going or returning - very glad to be back again - mentioned how I had offered her the use of Shibden in the event of Charles’s death. 

Reading her diary entries (from 1833 till 1836) it’s clear that she and Ann talked a lot, their sex life was great, Anne introduced Ann to her social circle, they had fun playing backgammon (fun fact: Ann Walker was really better at it than Anne Lister ahaha), and yeah, they were just like any other married couple. There were also bad things in their marriage: Anne Lister had to be the one introducing Ann Walker to new people, Anne Lister read all Ann Walker’s letters and always suggested how to answer, and more…

So, what’s the point of all this? I do think that Anne Lister cared and loved Ann Walker. For sure the relationship with Ann Walker was not the most romantic one she had, but it was the most serious one, they found each other. Both of them wanted a “traditional marriage” and by traditional marriage I mean a marriage in which the roles were very clear. Ann Walker wanted someone who could take care of the business estate, manage social relationships and basically “play the husband” and Anne Lister was more than happy to take on that role. They were polar opposites but they wanted the same things in life.

For sure their marriage wasn’t perfect, but Anne behaved as she did because she saw their union as a serious one, “she saw absolutely no reason why property should not be as important a consideration for Ann and herself as it would be in any heterosexual alliance.” [J. Liddington, Female Fortune] at the same time we shouldn’t forget that “she did often demonstrate a warm affection and care for Ann” [J. Liddington, Female Fortune].

About her relationship with Mariana, I haven’t read much of Anne’s entries about her, but from the little I’ve read and from various commentaries, I can say that she for sure loved her (and yes Mariana was her first real love and their relationship went on for something like 20 years). Mariana manipulated her and led her on for years. The two always talked about how when M’s husband died they would live together, but from 1830 Anne Lister kinda stops caring about it, she’s tired of the situation and hates to be second to anyone. Their relationship deteriorates with time. She even wrote about Mariana that their passion turned into friendship or something along those lines. If you wanna know more about Anne & Mariana’s relationship I really suggest watching this video of Helena Whitbread talking about it, it really sheds some light on their relationship, their dynamic and how badly Mariana hurt Anne.

What I believe: Anne’s love for Mariana was disinterested and wholeheartedly felt, there’s no doubt about that (I mean, she saw her when she was 19 and fell in love with her right in that moment), if Mariana hadn’t been the bitch she was, Ann Walker would have never came in the picture. But the truth is that Mariana was always ashamed of Anne, used her and kept her close, taking advantage of her love but never committing to her, always and only concerned about her status. So, in conclusion, I’m happy Anne found someone like Ann who was brave enough to be with her and make her as happy as she could, and I think that must have meant something in the end.

I hope this long thing I wrote gives you an idea of the dynamic between Anne and these two women. There’s for sure a lot more to say and to analyze and there are still many Anne Lister’s words that haven’t seen the light of day so, who knows what else is there to know about how she truly felt about these two.

And one more thing, I think we shouldn’t expect Anne Lister to be the romantic heroine we would like her to be, because she wasn’t. She was a flawed, not “very nice” woman who lived in the 19th century and tried to do all she could to be happy.

[iredreamer]

Hi! I was hoping you could help me out with something? Christmas 1834 - apparently Anne slept with Mariana but I can’t really find anything about it explicitly. Jill’s book has a December 25 entry as “M- came a little before 8 and stayed till 9 in bed with me - rather in the pathetics - she cannot get over her love for me - but I behaved with perfect propriety.” So they slept together but that was “perfectly proper”? 😂 grazie!

Hello! Well, some time ago I discussed this matter and transcribed all the (relevant) coded passages from Anne’s journal from the 22nd of December 1834 to the 26th, the days she stayed with Mariana.

I recently updated that post with more passages from those days. I think that the context and the conversations Mariana & Anne had during that time are quite important to understand why some things happened. The only things I left out in my transcriptions are stuff like “I went from there to there, we visited this lady etc.”, things that are quite mundane.

You can find the whole thing here: Anne Lister – Christmas 1834.

Have a good read, it is a long post but I think the answers you’re searching for are all there! At the end of that post you’ll also find my 2 cets on the whole thing : )

[iredreamer]

okay buddy, give us the tea, what did Anne write about that reunion, what part of the dialogue is true? what happened after the cliff? was there even a cliff in real life?

anonymous asked: Do you know how the Annes reunion actually went after not seeing each other for 10 months?

Okay, so, there was no cliff involved in their reunion and most of the dialogue (I’d say all of it really) is made up. I mean, in reality it took days and days for them to decide to be serious about their union. That scene is epic and it’s all Sally Wainwright’s merit really (by the way, everything that Anne says about the Queen of Denmark and what happened is true, minus the dancing).

The Ann(e)s didn’t arrive back home on the same day, Anne Lister arrives at Shibden two days before Ann Walker. Anne comes back from Denmark in December, she writes: December 23, 1833 > “I had come at the risk of my own life & that of my servants - he [Dr. Kenny] said it was not his doing - he wished Marian not to send for me, but she did it in her fright”.

After coming back to Shibden Anne travels again to York for Christmas, she then goes to Langton to stay with the Norcliffes and there she receives a letter from Ann Walker: December 27, 1833 > “Letter (2 pages) from Miss Walker who arrived at Huddersfield on Tuesday night, but was too sick at heart to go home till the next day (Christmas day), when she called at Shibden and wrote the 2nd page of her letter and left it with my aunt to direct and send off. ‘Whilst you are in England I hope you will consider my little cottage [Lidgate, because Ann lived there and not at Crow Nest] as your own. I have plenty of accommodation for your servants and 2 rooms entirely at your disposal…’”

So, Anne Lister wasn’t at Shibden when Ann Walker came back from Scotland, but Ann Walker actually went to Shibden (called on Anne’s aunt) and got the news that Anne Lister was back from Copenhagen.

After Ann’s first letter they started a correspondence, Anne Lister wrote back, concerned about Ann’s health and asked her to visit her aunt. They basically start to talk about meeting again and Anne writes in her diary: December 30, 1833 > “Letter also (2 pages and 2 lines) from Miss Walker - will count each day and hour to my arrival - cannot be too grateful to me. [I] Wrote (2 pages and 2 or 3 lines) to ‘Miss Walker, Lidgate, Halifax’… saying… [I] should leave my servants at Shibden, and then after seeing my aunt, be at Lidgate about 8 in the evening… Will do all I can for her  - never to think of repaying me - once well again, her health and happiness would be enough and all that I desired - ‘affectionately and faithfully yours AL’”.

Anne arrives at Shibden the 4th of January 1834, she stays one hour at home with her aunt then she changes and (with John Booth carrying her night things) walks to Lidgate to see Miss Walker like she promised, about their reunion she writes: January 4, 1834 > “Miss W- delighted to see me - looking certainly better in spirits than when I saw her last; but probably this improvement is merely the result of the present pleasure and excitement on seeing me.”

She stays the night: January 5, 1834 > “Much talk last night till 4 this morning and then not asleep for a long while. She repented having left me - longed to go after me to Copenhagen (…) Miss W- talks as if she would be glad to take me - then if I say anything decisive she hesitates.”

Ann Walker tells her that Ainsworth proposed again while she was in Scotland but, after a moment of hesitation, she finally refused him (he was after her money and so her family didn’t push her to marry him), she also tells her she didn’t want to stay in Scotland anymore and wished to be back home. Long story short, Anne Lister ends up sleeping at Lidgate for 8 days (lol), every night they talk about their relationship, Ann Walker still a little bit hesitant (fictional Ann Walker is much more decided). And… that’s all… :)