#and yes I know that this is delusional and it probably just involves actual racism on germ's part

[ludcake]

George R R Martin: in my lorebook, I'm going to make the western accounts of the eastern peoples outlandish and incredibly racist, and note how they think the same of the people in the West, to illustrate how Orientalism propagates through ignorance and stereotype and Othering of other cultures and peoples, ascribing mysticism and exoticity to the mundane and different

Redditors: wow, isn't it cool how outlandish and unbelievable these eastern civilizations are, they're so weird and wacky with their beliefs and magic

[lochnessies]

I feel like 3H discourse gets fucked over a bit by people not taking into account that characters will say inaccurate information (without it having to be a plot hole). Perspective is a huge theme in Three Houses and characters are going to make, sometimes, dramatic actions based off that misinformation.

yeah

Like, Dmitri accuses Edelgard of being involved in the Tragedy of Duscur, but, she was like, 12 when that happened. It’s a lot more likely that Edelgard was being experimented on or recovering from experimentation during that point in time considering that the Tragedy happens not long after Edelgard and Dmitri last see each other.

do i think edelgard was involved? nah. it’s one of the few things i genuinely believe her on. however, it isn’t unreasonable for dimitri to think she was somehow involved. i mean, faerghast is pretty standard medieval when it comes down to fighting. was sent to quell rebellions at like 14. that’s really young. and in the middle ages the standard age that boys trained to be nights was at the very least seven (glenn was 15 when he was full on knighted). felix says he learned to fight before he could write his own name and dimitri was already swinging swords at nine. not to mention she was in the kingdom and then not long after she leaves the tragedy happened. so it could also look like she was a spy even if she didn’t set lambert on fire herself.

then there’s the whole shit of her saying nothing. a whole nation gets wiped out and she has no plans to ever vindicate them. hell, even dedue says that her being involved in any way is unacceptable and he’s fucking pissed. is he delusional? is he being irrational and unfair to edelgard? she isn’t the victim here, dedue, his people, the kingdom royals and co. are.

Likewise, Setheth accuses Edelgard of trying to become a false goddess when that’s not even remotely close to her goals.

ok this part right here is the reason that this fucking thing took forever to come out (sorry anon). i have so much to say and i wanted to write it all but i decided to put in my edelgard essay instead. i then waited to post this answer but sadly it’s taking longer to edit than i planned and i feel bad so you’re going to have to wait for this bit. so if you stick around i’ll talk about that in depth in the essay but just know that i disagree with the op very much.

Edelgard makes a ton of false accusations and misconceptions about Rhea. She accuses Rhea of being a power hungry inhumane tyrant who has no regard for life outside her own when that just isn’t remotely accurate.

And then there’s Claude, literally the only major faction leader that cares to uncover the truth and nuances of everyone’s decisions. He’s literally the only faction leader to not act like his version of events is the definitive truth. He acknowledges that he and Edelgard are fighting for similar things: a system overhaul of Fodlan. He also doesn’t oppose the Church because he’s learned enough about it to want to keep it’s institution in place. That’s why he’s the only faction leader that can survive in every route (I’d consider Seteth and Rhea to share the role as Church Leader since Seteth leads the Church Route but Rhea’s the one actually in charge of the Church). Claude is also the only leader that doesn’t make any false claims about other factions. I said a while ago that Claude would make the best ruler and this is why.

ok this is fine

But going back to what I said earlier about discourse, this impacts discourse drastically because people can just pick whichever version of events they prefer and there’s probably a character who claimed it went that way. The plot also doesn’t seek to clarify events one way or the other in any route. So even if you’ve played every route, it’s up to the player to make judgment calls on who’s speaking out of their ass.

except it’s literally not. we are told what routes have correct information from the devs themselves. and unreliable narrators can be proven and disproven when you put their words against everyone else, their actions, and the lore.

Between all the relevant character and plot details the game hides behind supports, endings, and other easily missable content and the fact that no two characters interpret the series of events that happen in the plot the same way (due to coming from various background, being present for some stuff but not others, having different priorities and biases that will cause them to interpret different things in different ways, etc.), no two players are likely going to interpret the events of 3 Houses the same either.

just because two characters interpret the events differently doesn’t mean they’re right. for example, the agarthans think the crest experiments are good but edelgard and lysithea would say otherwise. but you wouldn’t say that twsitd’s perspective is valid just bc they see things differently.

and when i see players trying to excuse some of the most horrific things bc they don’t want their fave war criminal to look bad yes i will judge them. you can like whoever but don’t excuse shit like imperialism and racism and we will be fine.

So, if you want to talk 3H, please acknowledge that none of the characters should be taken solely on their word, especially when describing major things. With the examples I gave earlier of misinformation in the game, it makes sense that Dmitri would place the blame of the Tragedy of Duscur almost entirely on Edelgard because he doesn’t know about the Agarthans or Edelgard’s history with them.

ok but she’s still complicate if nothing else. that’s still terrible. like if she was planning to clear duscur’s name that’s one thing but she isn’t. the only way to do that is to reveal twsitd and we know she doesn’t since it is a shadow war that the people don’t know about since that would reflect badly on her for working with them.

It makes sense that Edelgard has a lot of misconceptions about the Church because once you start completely rewriting and erasing history (and the Church does openly censor literature, which is shown in Claude’s route), any possible “true story” is more likely than the story you’re giving. Alongside that, Edelgard is getting most of her information from the Agarthans and a very private source only accessible to the Imperial Family.

fair but choosing war at like 13 is an extreme jump. maybe wait till your brain fully develops and you have a better picture of the world around you

It makes sense that Seteth might assume that Edelgard is trying to become a false god because he’s been helping lead a religion based on lies for centuries.

she is. also the religion isn’t based off of lies. sothis exists. she’s in your head. a few details were changed to hide nabateans from a red canyon massacre 2.0. however, the values are the same. also he came to the monastery 20 years ago not centuries.

When you’re trying to understand some part of Three Houses, you have to think about where that information came from, what factors might be biasing that information, and that there might be some detail that shines a new light on that information somewhere else in the game that you’re missing. And that’s generally a good philosophy to have when processing any information.

yeah

That’s something I like about Three Houses. I like how you have to sort through a ton of biases and misinformation within the game to understand the story. If you let your own biases get away from you too much, you’re going to miss the larger picture. The game let’s you know exactly where everyone is coming from in some way and (almost) everyone is given a sympathetic eye in at least one route. And (almost) everyone is viewed as irredeemable in at least one route.

the only people who are portrayed as irredeemable are edelgard and rhea (and maybe dimitri if you count edel’s contempt for him in cf).

[pr-ay-the-gay-away]

There's so much Brie Larson hate that it's crazy. I've not seen this much hate for a specific actress from so many people for a long time. I don't really know anything about her besides the fact that she's in the Marvel movies. I searched up her name on YouTube and almost all of the videos that came up were videos about how the cast hate her and that she's unlikeable and arrogant. I feel out of the loop. Apparently, she said something racist and sexist, but I don't know what? What did she do?

“Apparently, she said something racist and sexist, but I don’t know what? What did she do?”

The full on anti-Brie Larson hater-bandwagon campaign was in response to this speech.

“I searched up her name on YouTube and almost all of the videos that came up were videos about how the cast hate her and that she’s unlikeable and arrogant”

(Pro-tip: install a browser extension to block YouTube channels, and do that. No-one needs all of that vitriol in their life)

The reason you’re seeing a lot of these videos in the search results is because a lot of conservative couch-commentators are producing “analysis” videos in response to every bit of new media that has Brie in it. These couch-commentators are basically projecting their own prejudice against Brie onto every interaction or conversation that she’s involved in - they want to see everyone else around her hating her, because they want to feel validated in their own hatred.

It’s exactly like if you took a toxic delusional Camilizer and handed them a webcam and microphone - you’d get plenty of idiotic “analysis” videos of how the other girls in 5H “hated” Camila (or just reverse it so it’s some toxic delusional OT4 stan making the same content about how Camila was an epic bitch) LOLS.

We’ve seen this kind of bullshit before in the 5H fandom. The difference is that the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) has a much much much (much much much) larger reach.

Two key takeaways from me; one comforting, the other cautionary:

1) Comforting thought: unless you live in a deeply conservative, already kinda low-key racist and misogynistic area (sorry to you if you do) most of the general public/casual fans of the MCU aren’t massively hating on Brie at all. Remember that people are entitled to their opinions when it comes to creative content, and if they struggle to access Captain Marvel, that’s their own deal. But as long as they’re not personally attacking Brie and making it about the misconceived notions of what she’s like as a person off-screen, try to give those people a bit of a break, but also ask that they do the same for you - you are totally entitled to love Captain Marvel without having to qualify it to others, but likewise, they are not required to qualify their critique of the movie to you. If you’re both willing to share your respective opinions and critiques and perspectives, that’s pretty much a sign of a functioning healthy respectful relationship.

2) Now the cautionary: the vocal anti-Brie rage machines who scream “reverse-racism!” and “reverse-sexism!” (honestly FFS give me a fucking break LOLs) are very much in the minority. Unfortunately they are also very vocal. And their voices are amplified due to the reach and accessibility of digital media platforms. These angry talking heads have taken to social media for a reason. You know how regular people (probably much like yourself) are incredibly weary of what they share and express on social media because of the high likelihood of whatever being shared could be misinterpreted and thus create unintended discord and disagreements? Well that is exactly the reason why these types of vocal anti-Brie rage machines post inflammatory vitriolic rants online. Their whole intention is to invite responses and to incite disagreements. In their minds, being publicly disagreed with is validation that they are fighting some kind of righteous fight.

You will not tackle this problem by entering into an argument with someone who was trolling around looking to start one in the first place.

Stop commenting on these vitriolic angry rant videos with your logic and reason. You’re not going to change their stance, they’re just looking to fight with you. Stop sharing your retort to these videos within your own sheltered social spaces - you’re not changing anyone else’s mind within your own network, you’re just preaching to the choir - what you ARE doing is exposing your sheltered little bubble of like-minded people to a polarizing extremist minority view, which only serves as a straw man to reinforce your own unconscious biases about what the world is like and who it’s comprised of. It’s just quick and easy validation for yourself, nothing else, nothing actually constructive or progressive (and it’s actually an exact mirror of what these haters are doing on YouTube, they’re just happy to broadcast more widely)

Instead of focusing on the couch-commentators who are hell bent on spreading their vitriol in the name of their righteous hatred for others, focus instead on the people who you can influence.

Do you have friends or family members who have bought into the anti-Brie sentiment? Converse with them. Like, actually converse. That means listening to them, acknowledging what they’ve shared, and raising your own sentiments and experiences and knowledge with them respectfully. Consider that there might be concessions to be made on both sides. Maybe someone has taken Brie’s comments personally because of something that has happened to them in real life - try to understand what that experience was for them and how it has affected them. Acknowledge their experiences, and try to find a constructive way forward from there.

If you have friends who are critical of Captain Marvel, don’t immediately jump to the conclusion that they must also hate Brie Larson and strong female characters and just women in general. Try to converse with them through their critique, as well as sharing your own. Maybe agree to disagree on some things. It’s entirely possible that you experience films and narratives very differently to others - this is completely normal. I cannot possibly experience Black Panther on the same level that a black person might. Acknowledge that some men (and even some women) are, from their own personal experiences, unable to experience Captain Marvel on the same level that a lot of women do. But those same people, if they are looking to show you the same respect, need to acknowledge that your experience is valid too.

If you’re lucky, like me, and you live in a progressive, liberal society, you’re going to mostly be responsible for checking your own defensiveness when it comes to men saying that they didn’t think Captain Marvel was great (or maybe they just simply don’t care as much). Yes, this is effort on your part.

If you live in a more conservative society where people around you are jumping pretty blindly onto the anti-Brie bandwagon because **stage whispers** they’re actually kinda already bigoted, unfortunately it’s going to be even greater effort for you. And honestly, I don’t know what that’s like, so maybe in some cases you actually just need to set your own boundaries. If there are people who are unwilling to engage in respectful discourse with you, you probably need to make the decision to not engage with them at all.

[moonlitgleek]

Say Cersei does marry Rhaegar. I assume the bloom comes off the rose with the marriage to a Sadsack prince in the court of his mad father. Does Cersei still convince Jaime to go for the Kingsguard? Would Jaime be seduced to cuckolding the prince he admires? What does Tywin do?

Putting aside the contradictory character motivation that would lead Aerys to  simultaneously make Tywin’s daughter a princess but also spite him by depriving him of his heir, while giving Rhaegar everything he needs to plot Aerys’ own dethroning with Tywin’s help…. yes, Cersei probably would still convince Jaime to join the Kingsguard.

 But when [Jaime] made a brief call at King’s Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always.

That sense of possessiveness that drove Cersei to talk Jaime into joining the Kingsguard so that he could only be hers does not go away if she marries Rhaegar. After all, it has made itself known when she was all of ten in what she did to Melara Hetherspoon, at a time when Cersei still thought she would wed Rhaegar

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses… and for her, his twin. 

Note the present tense Cersei uses here. She is still bristling two decades after killing Melara just because Melara had a crush on Jaime. Cersei was ten. She was enamored with the thought of marrying Rhaegar but her thoughts and actions still bespoke her possessiveness towards Jaime. The thing about Cersei’s relationship with Jaime is that Cersei saw it as something that transcends any other relationship. They were two halves of a whole. Jaime was her mirror image, a part of her. There was no contradiction in her head between her “love” for Rhaegar and her connection to Jaime. So I don’t see how wedding Rhaegar would have deterred Cersei from sabotaging Jaime’s betrothal to Lysa so she could keep him herself.

Of course, wedding Rhaegar also has nothing to do with Cersei’s other motivation in talking Jaime into joining the Kingsguard. This is where Cersei’s resentment over how different she and Jaime were treated and over Tywin’s rampant misogyny towards her manifest as well. Cersei deliberately took Tywin’s chosen golden heir from him, the heir she thinks this of.

“You are not your father. And Tywin always regarded Jaime as his rightful heir.”

“Jaime … Jaime has taken vows. Jaime never thinks, he laughs at everything and everyone and says whatever comes into his head. Jaime is a handsome fool.” 

That’s the heir Tywin favored over Cersei, Cersei who sees herself as the only true son Tywin ever had and who resents that he never recognized it. Talking Jaime into joining the Kingsguard wasn’t just about Cersei’s possessiveness of Jaime, it was also about punishing Tywin.

As for the question about Jaime cuckolding Rhaegar, that’s an interesting question. Jaime did admire Rhaegar so “horning” him might not come to him as easily as it did with Robert. However, OTL!Jaime’s idealization of Rhaegar was shaped by a few factors: it was a byproduct of Jaime’s idolization of Ser Arthur Dayne who held Rhaegar in high esteem himself, but it’s Jaime’s time in court with Aerys that really highlighted the contrast between the Mad King and his chivalrous heir who, at the time, had Tywin’s regard as well. The glaring difference between Aerys and Rhaegar could only endear the prince to everyone around who saw him as a definitive improvement on his unstable father. Jaime’s idealization is further exacerbated in current time by his deep sense of guilt over failing Rhaegar in not preventing Elia and the children’s deaths, and by his overwhelming hatred of Robert. But the truth of the matter is that Jaime didn’t really spend that much time with Rhaegar personally to really know him. Jaime was indoctrinated into the Kingsguard at Harrenhal, mere months before Rhaegar took off with Lyanna, and even those months were mostly spent with Jaime in King’s Landing, and Rhaegar on Dragonstone. In reality, Jaime idealized the idea of Rhaegar he had in his head rather than the actual man who he did not know.

But the idea of Rhaegar would fail in Jaime’s eyes just as it would in Cersei’s in this AU. His twin’s involvement would force a necessary divide between Jaime and Rhaegar, not just in the jealousy Jaime would inherently feel towards whoever married Cersei, but also in how Rhaegar’s treatment of Cersei would heavily influence Jaime’s opinion of him (because I don’t think that the mess at Harrenhal and Rhaegar’s subsequent disappearance with Lyanna would be prevented simply if Rhaegar married Cersei instead, because Rhaegar’s actions weren’t simply about Elia not being able to have a third kid in OTL. Call me a contrarian but I’m a strong proponent of the narrative not validating Cersei’s delusional claims that Rhaegar wouldn’t have needed Lyanna if he’d only married her instead of Elia, which smacks of a great deal of ableism, racism and victim-blaming. No, thank you). The tourney at Harrenhal would have a great influence on Jaime’s opinion of the crown prince. Jaime had no horse in the race at Harrenha in OTLl; he had no reason to care about Elia Martell, and usual Westerosi ableism and racism made it far easier to scapegoat Elia than to hold Rhaegar accountable for his actions whether at Harrenhal or after, hence Cersei, JonCon, Viserys and even Dany doing exactly that. Elia was collectively thought of as lacking in the eyes of many and thus received a great deal of the blame for what Rhaegar had done (it’s not for nothing that we keep hearing “if only Rhaegar had married X, he wouldn’t have needed Lyanna”. X sometimes being Dany and sometimes being Cersei but the he implication remain the same - that the cause of the problem was Elia and her inability to provide something that Rhaegar needed rather than Rhaegar himself).

But when it’s his beloved sister and his family getting publicly humiliated in front of all of Westeros, don’t expect Jaime Lannister to still smell roses off Rhaegar after the latter publicly spurns his sister, the Light of the West and the most beautiful woman in Westeros in Jaime’s eyes, in favor of the “wild thing” that is Lyanna Stark. Jaime’s disillusionment in the court of the Mad King would absolutely include the silver prince in that context. In an unfortunate parallel, the tourney at Harrenhal would repeat history in having another Targaryen publicly shaming a Lannister lady (at even a wider scale than what Aerys did to Joanna considering the sheer number of nobles present in Harrenhal) and another insult added to the list of insults Tywin suffered. While Jaime might not care about the Lannister name the way Tywin did, Cersei’s shame, heartbreak and fury would certainly matter to him in light of how much he loved Cersei and was protective of her. And Cersei would be murderous with the insult, which is personal and political. For a woman who coveted power since she was little, having her political standing so publicly undermined would be intolerable, which is made worse by the risk of being set aside for Lyanna (especially if Cersei and Rhaegar are not yet wed by the time of the tourney) or having Lyanna formally installed as a royal mistress.

How the changes would affect the aftermath of the rebellion is a bit complicated and is heavily dependent on whether Rhaegar and Cersei were already married or not. But ultimately, if Rhaegar survives the rebellion and wins (that’s a very big if), his very public actions with Lyanna and how he handles Jon’s existence might lead to some variation of this.

It did not take [Robert] long to start playing with [his widowed cousin] again. As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poor lonely creature. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. “No,” she had replied, “I want him horned.”