#and when/if mike is revealed to be gay/bi/unlabeled

[chirpsythismorning]

Saying gay Mike would be hated by the ga bc that would mean that he used El all those years, is homophobic, just like saying bi-Mike would be hated by the ga bc that would mean he could have just stayed with El if he is also attracted to girls, is biphobic.

Bylers using either of these as the basis for why their interpretation is most likely to play out in canon, just makes me cringe bc why are we even wasting time giving validation to homophobia/biphobia as having the last word for how the show has to play out?? Is that what it all comes down to then? Appeasing bigots??

Gays aren’t evil or trying to intentionally hurt others, least of all gay kids that are figuring out their sexuality. Let’s not act like being gay wasn’t seen as being broken or needing to to be fixed, meaning that going along with what society views as normal, was and still is seen as the only option for queer people in general. And I say queer people in general bc you don’t necessarily have to even be gay to experience questioning your sexuality and feeling like you have to do things because everyone else is. Arguably we all go through that! But especially gays in the 80’s bc for a lot of people back then, it was a matter of blending in to survive (for many it still is).

Bisexuals aren’t evil or trying to intentionally hurt others for falling out of love, losing feelings, or just merely not being attracted to/compatible with someone of the opposite sex. Straight people are capable of recognizing that they aren’t attracted to or compatible with every person they meet of the opposite sex. Does any of that make them less straight? No. So why is it so hard to understand it’s the same way for bisexuals and even queer people in general? Nobody, bisexual or otherwise should have to stay in relationships with someone they no longer have romantic feelings for, just bc they’re attracted to them or even were just confused and thought they were but it ended up not being enough?? Attraction is important, yes, but feelings are arguably even more so (especially when you have something else to compare it to, causing the dilemma in the first place). I mean look at Stancy/Jancy? Is Nancy viewed as problematic for being attracted to Steve and having deep feelings/being attracted to Jonathan, and having conflicting feelings about that? No! And so why should it be problematic for Mike?

The reality is, homophobes are going to hate Mike if he comes out as queer, regardless of whether he is revealed to be gay, bi or unlabeled.

This is why basing Mike’s sexuality on the backlash of bigoted audiences’ is a moot point to me.

I mean, as it is, most of the general audience already hates Mike as a result of his behavior in s3-4, and this is straight Mike we’re talking about! I’m obviously not referring to milkvans or Redditors, bc they only make up a minority of hardcore fans who hate byler and will defend Mike to the point of demonizing El. I’m talking about viewers that have seen the show once through each time a new season releases and then move on afterwards without being in online spaces. That is the majority. The majority of the general audience, homophobic or otherwise, does not like Mike anyways at this point. So, who the hell cares what they think about queer Mike in the end??? They’re already anticipating going into s5 and continuing to dislike him, so the argument that the show can’t do this or that bc those same people won’t like him?… That ship has already sailed.

If anything I could see the non-homophobic majority accepting queer Mike, regardless of what label he ends up identifying with, bc then at least it will finally give them some clarity about where that resentment they had for him was coming from, ie misunderstanding him completely and now finally getting some answers.

At the end of the day, bigots will do what they do best. They’ll make up any reason they can think of for why queer Mike is wrong. And so why should we base our interpretation of things on what will be more palatable to those that the show was never intended for in the first place?

[will80sbyers]

Do not feel 'sad' or 'nervous' if people act like we are going against the majority. Because it is actually nice to have different takes when it is about something non-confirmed. Mike can be both bi, gay, or unlabelled/just queer without a necessary label. I personally am on the 'the writers will never confirm or label Mike's sexuality' opinion, I think he is written to be as 'queer' without any specific label.

I also want to say that I am actually on the most unpopular side of the fandom in this case, because my readings are more unpopular than your readings even. I do not think Mike is realizing anything, I think he is specifically written to be oblivious as being the center of the love triangle in this. Even in S4, I do not think he was realizing his feelings for Will or was confused.

In my understanding, Mike was scared that he lost Will as a friend and that is why he could not hug Will at the airport. I do not think it was about his secret romantic feelings. I think Hermione-Ron parallels do not hold in this case bc the situations are vastly different when it comes to these characters' emotional states. I believe Mike is 100% telling the truth in the things he said. Him not hugging Will was about him thinking he lost Will as a friend, he addresses this when he apologizes. Him not being able to say ily to El was because he was insecure and thought El would not need him anymore, and was scared of losing El if that day came. I believe he is 100% telling the truth in the van scene and during the monologue scene.

What I think is happening in this arc is that, Mike does not realize that he is not loving El as he is supposed to. He does not realize that he does not love El romantically. El is the one who realizes this, and she's the one who realizes that she does not love Mike romantically which is why I believe she will be the one to break up with Mike. He addresses that he does not see himself as nothing special, and El is a superhero in Mike's eyes. That makes them incompitable. Mike has a complex in wanting to be special . It makes their relationship incompitable. El has accepted herself as just a girl, not a monster or a superhero. The way Mike sees her as a superhero does go against El's emotional arc.

I think the moment El breaks up with him, El will say that she does not believe Mike loves him romantically, and this will push Mike to think what love does actually mean etc. (Btw I think the painting reveal will not trigger this, I think the painting reveal will be solved later on instead of it being the thing that triggers Mike's realization or something).

Anyways sorry for the long ask, I just like talking about this with someone who at least shares similar opinions to mine. So, let me what you think if you have time! And have a nice day.

I don't agree with this take that he's completely unaware because I can't explain some scenes and parallels if Mike doesn't already feel at least a bit different for Will, like the triple take in the desert for example or other stuff... But it's an interesting take, it could be!

personally I think he is beginning to understand his feelings for Will in season 4 but he's scared and wants to avoid avoid avoid and "keep the status quo" and keep being El's boyfriend

I definitely agree with some of the things you wrote, I do believe he's being very honest and saying the truth both to Will and El, I believe El is the one that realized she doesn't love Mike this season and will be the one breaking up with him... I also believe it's possible he will know his feelings for Will before knowing about the painting, I'm not sure on how they will handle that, they could do it in a lot of different ways!

and honestly what I care about is just that all the arcs make sense and that they end up together and happy

I'm good with Mike being unlabeled in the show, I don't know if they confirm that he's bi or not but I personally will keep thinking he's bisexual if they leave him unlabeled because I see his crush on El as genuine... unless they make him say he never was attracted to her I will still keep seeing the crush when I watch the show 🤔

[aemiron-main-backup]

this show makes me insane the gay Mike analysis makes me insane the way that el’s character form the very beginning aligns perfectly with an arc about Mike being gay/having never loved El romantically is INSANE because it would never work with any other character/girl that isn’t El especially not without ruining their friendship in the end.

But long story short (gonna talk about this at length in the analysis) because El is who she is and is the character that she is, raised in a lab but still loving but also knows how to hold her own etc, she’s been raised outside of the typical heteronormative homophobic society, narratively she’s PERFECT for gay Mike in a show where you’re not supposed to hate people for being gay. Because in the end, when El and the audience find out that Mike never loved El romantically because he’s gay (which imo is very much already demonstrated regardless of s5), El isn’t going to hate him for being gay or be upset that he’s gay the way that somebody who was raised in a heteronormative/homophobic society and then had their heart broken by a gay man likely would. El isn’t going to hate him for anything imo but she’s going to be upset with him but NOT not going to be upset with him because he’s gay/never loved her: she’s going to be upset with him because he lied to her and his from her.

I’m sure she was upset about him not loving her at first, esp before she starts to get an inkling that’s he’s gay, as we see with the bedroom fight in s4, but even in that scene, she’s more upset about the fact that he’s lying to her, that he denies that he never says it. She’s upset that he doesn’t say it/write it, sure, but the main upset imo comes from him lying about it. Especially since even in s3, El was upset, sure, that Mike couldn’t come over to make out the day after Hopper threatened Mike. She was upset about that lack of love/affection! But she was more upset about the lying. She broke up with over the lying, not over him not coming to see her/display affection. Especially since when Mike explains why he couldn’t come over, because of hopper’s threats, if El was still solely focused on Mike loving her/that affection, she would have blamed hopper, as she’s done in the past, and let Mike off the hook. But she doesn’t. Because that’s not what she’s upset about- the lying is.

And I think that especially once El realizes that Mike not loving her had nothing to do with her, and everything to do with him and being gay, and that it’s not that he just loves Will more than her as a person, it’s that he could never love her at all, by NO fault of her own, she’s going to be more understanding.

Again I love bi and unlabelled Mike truthers but NARRATIVELY ALONE bc even tho messy situations like that DO happen irl, I feel like explicitly gay Mike works better because that way, El isn’t pitted against Will. It’s not a matter of actual choice between them, or who Mike loves more. It’s about never having loved El at all, by no fault of her own, because he was unable to. Somebody like El, who feels unloveable, getting an ending where Mike reveals that he just loves Will more? Even if he did ever love her? And even if he never loved her but is still bin, that still shows that there’s something about El as a person that Mike does not love. But if Mike is gay, then it’s not about El at all. It’s not about her being unloveable or loved less compared to Will- it’s about Mike and who he is able to love and his lack of attraction to women.

That’s one of the big things for me about gay Mike from a narrative standpoint and why I believe it’s been set up from the beginning ESPECIALLY in regards to his relationship with El and why El is written the way that she is- it immediately recontextualizes Mike and el’s relationship both for the audience and for El. It shows that El, who has felt unloveable, felt like a monster, felt that she can only be loved as a superhero, and never loved for herself, is not unloveable. It’s that Mike is incapable of loving her. She is not incapable of BEING loved, Mike is incapable of loving her.

If Mike was portrayed as attracted to women and genuinely romantically in love with El at one point, then when Byler becomes canon, it’s about a choice of El over will, which again happens irl for sure, and Mike would not be wrong or bad for making that choice, but NARRATIVELY because these are characters who have themes and arcs and allegories, Mike being anything but gay imply that there is something about El as a person that he doesn’t love, that he won’t love, that there is something about El that is unloveable, which feels like a poor way to address the arc of a character who has canonically felt unloved for the majority of her life and feels unloveable.

But once Mike is confirmed to be gay, it’s not about El at all. It’s about Mike. It’s not that she can’t be loved, it’s that HE can’t love her. He is not physically capable of it. And absolutely, Bi people are MORE than capable of not loving certain people, that they can’t love them because they don’t like who they are as a person, or aren’t attracted to them as a person physically and personality wise, but if Mike is gay, he also literally CANT love her but not because of who she is or what she looks like or anything to do with El- it’s because of who MIKE is. Millie even said herself that Mike Can’t love El in the way that she wants him to. It’s not that he won’t or doesn’t want to, it’s that he can’t.

Like I said, I know that messy situations about falling out of love with someone happen irl, and Mike wouldn’t be wrong or bad for that, not at all. (he’d be wrong for lying about it though just like how he’s wrong for lying about not loving El int he context of being gay). But narratively, if Mike is anything but gay, then there is SOMETHING about El as a person, physically or personality wise or both that he does not like. Which again is valid and happens irl- but when it comes to el’s narrative as a character, as someone who’s centered around feeling unloved for who she is as a person, it’s not the best way to handle that narrative imo, especially if we still want Mike and El to be close/friends the end, which I think is what the duffers are going for, esp since like I said, due to her upbringing and unique character, El wouldn’t hate Mike for being gay/be upset with him because of that. But she IS upset about the idea that there’s something about HER that is unloveable (see: the way she tries to change herself and act like someone she’s not at the airport and rink o mania) and she IS upset about Mike lying to her. So if Mike just doesn’t love HER/loves will more, which, if he’s anything but gay, is the case, then it’s hard to resolve things between Mike and El in a positive way because they get hit but a.) El’s upset about Mike not loving her for who she is/feeling unlovable and b.) Mike lying to her. But if Mike is gay, then a.) is removed, and it’s just upset about Mike lying to her, which, him lying to her about being gay, like I said, is something that I think that El could understand without hating him for it, without being homophobic towards him because of her unique character and upbringing.

And I think that’s the big thing about Mike and his inability to say “I love you” to El. It’s not that he won’t say it or that he doesn’t want to, because then why not just frame it around Mike not being ready to grow up and say it? It’s that he can’t, it’s framed that he can’t say it, he physically cannot get the words out during the aisle scene in season 3 or during the bedroom fight scene. He only manages to say it when El is dying- the only reason why he CAN say it then is because he’s not saying it to El when she’s conscious, and because of something I’m going to explain here but also more in depth during the analysis:

If Mike not being able to say I love you = Mike being gay, and, as I’m going to talk in my analysis, Mike throughout s4 likely knows he is gay/is figuring it out for sure throughout s4 but is trying to decide whether to be in or out of the closet. So, the monologue is his ripping off the bandaid, his “I’m not going to come out as gay I’m going to hide this forever, as far as anyone knows I’m not gay” moment. And that’s why he can say “I love you” (in addition to the fact that he doesn’t even know if El can hear it), because in that moment, for the rest of his life, he thinks he is going to be not gay (gay = not able to say ily, not gay = can’t say ily). But just like other parts of the monologue, which are verifiably untrue, it’s not true. Mike is gay and isn’t going to be in the closet for the rest of his life, regardless of what he thinks. His monologue/attempt to make that choice FAILED, it was full of lies. Mike is lying to himself and to El in that scene. He’s not going to stay in the closet forever. He doesn’t love her.

Again, like I said, Mike is framed in a way where it’s about the idea that he CANNOT say he loves her, like PHYSICALLY CANNOT rather than the idea that he’s not ready, or doesn’t want to. Because he does. That’s the thing. Mike, part of him WANTS to love El, wants to be “normal,” wants to love her in the way she deserves and feels guilty for not being able to do so. We see this in his character. Part of him WANTS to love her, part of him he WANTS to say it but he CANT. They’ve framed it not as personal choice, not as him not liking El/hating her, because he DOES care for her as a person, he DOES idolize her even and DOES care about her, genuinely. But he CANT love her romantically. It’s not that he won’t, or doesn’t want to because there’s something he doesn’t like about El as a person- it’s because he CANT, because he’s gay. It’s not about El at all.

He CANT say it until the monologue. And when he does, like I said, it’s tied to lies about himself and about trying to ‘choose not to be gay/come out of the closet’. He CAN say it in that moment because in a weird way, in his mind, he’s “not gay anymore” because he’s choosing to stay in the closet forever (which is NOT how it works you can’t choose it of course but MIKE needs to realize this, realize that being in the closet forever and acting as if he’s not gay doesn’t make him able to love El, doesn’t make him not gay, even if it makes him able to say it, and even then, he can’t say it to be conscious face and again it’s tied to other lies.)

Narratively, if Mike wheeler is explicitly gay, then it’s not a choice- what isn’t a choice? Not loving El is not a choice. The love triangle is not a choice. The ‘choice’ between Will and El isn’t actually a choice. There IS NO LOVE TRIANGLE. THATS THE THING THE LOVE TRIANGLE DOES NOT EXIST!! BECAUSE EL IS NOT A VIABLE OPTION FOR MIKE!! WILL AND ELL ARENT PITTED AGAINST EACHOTHER BECAUSE THERE IS NO CHOICE RHERE IS NO LOVE TRIANGLE!! Just like how being gay isn’t a choice. And even though el’s an “option” in the sense that Mike could choose to stay in the closet, choose to try and act like he loves her, choose to be her boyfriend, it’s called a LOVE TRIANGLE, not a RELATIONSHIP triangle.

It’s about LOVE, it’s about Mike’s feelings, even if Mike and El stayed as boyfriend and girlfriend until they died and in this exact “love triangle” scenario they’re in now where Mike so with El but had feelings for will, there would still BE NO LOVE TRIANGLE because Mike CANNOT LOVE EL. ITS NOT A RELATIONSHIP TRIANGLE ITS NOT ABOUT WHO HES IN A RELATIONSHIP/CHOOSING TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH!! THE RELATIONSHIP TRIANGLE COULD EXIST!!! SURE!! BUT ITS CALLED A LOVE TRIANGLE BECAUSE ITS ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL AND WHO YOU LOVE AND MIKE CANNOT LOVE EL BECAUSE HES GAY!! EVEN THOUGH HE HAS TO CHOOSE WHAT RELATIONSHIP TO BE IN, HES NOT CHOOSING LOVE. RELATIONSHIP DOES NOT EQUAL LOVE!! MIKES CHOICE IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS NOT LOVE!! HIS LOVE IS NOT THE CHOICE!! Because if it was, if mike was anything other than gay and his love was a choice between Will and El, choosing betwene his love for both of them, like I said, it’s way more difficult narratively and more importantly, difficulty aside, because ST does not shy away from difficulty, does not align with the narrative as a whole, nor the arcs and underlying themes of each individual character, such as things like El’s arc regarding feeling unloveable.

The love triangle does not exist! There is no choice! I’ve seen people frame it as “the GA needs to realize that Will is a viable love triangle choice for Mike,” but I think that people may want to try looking at it with the lens that it isn’t true that Will is a viable love triangle choice for Mike, the GA are right in that weird regard, although not in the way they think they are. Because the love triangle does not exist because El is not a viable choice for Mike either. Will is not a viable choice for Mike!! Because there’s no choice!! If the love triangle was between Mike and two other men, then Will would be a viable choice. But it’s not. Will is not a viable choice because there’s no choice at all. Even if Mike didn’t love Will as a person in this current in-show love triangle scenario, which he does, there still would be no choice between them because the only option would be Will. So he’s technically not a viable choice in the love triangle because THERE IS NO CHOICE!! He’s a viable choice for mike’s love, sure, in the context of Will versus other men. But not a viable choice in the love triangle because THERE IS NO CHOICE THERE IS NOBODY EXCEPT WILL TO CHOOSE FROM WITHJN THE WILL EL MIKE LOVE TRIANGLE!! Will is not a viable choice and El is also not a viable choice because again, there’s no choice at all because Mike is gay.

Like cmon! The duffers LOVE flipping things on their head, and how would a love triangle be any different? The flip is that IT DOESNT EXIST!! The “choice” that’s inherent to a love triangle is not a choice at all! And I think that’s part of why they showed us the stancy jancy love triangle in s4, to show that Nancy DOES have to make a choice, unlike Mike, who is not making a choice because there is no choice to be made.

Anyway this is a ramble and I’m still refining my thoughts, but I’m gonna address it fully in the analysis.

this show makes me insane the gay Mike analysis makes me insane the way that el’s character form the very beginning aligns perfectly with an arc about Mike being gay/having never loved El romantically is INSANE because it would never work with any other character/girl that isn’t El especially not without ruining their friendship in the end.

But long story short (gonna talk about this at length in the analysis) because El is who she is and is the character that she is, raised in a lab but still loving but also knows how to hold her own etc, she’s been raised outside of the typical heteronormative homophobic society, narratively she’s PERFECT for gay Mike in a show where you’re not supposed to hate people for being gay. Because in the end, when El and the audience find out that Mike never loved El romantically because he’s gay (which imo is very much already demonstrated regardless of s5), El isn’t going to hate him for being gay or be upset that he’s gay the way that somebody who was raised in a heteronormative/homophobic society and then had their heart broken by a gay man likely would. El isn’t going to hate him for anything imo but she’s going to be upset with him but NOT not going to be upset with him because he’s gay/never loved her: she’s going to be upset with him because he lied to her and his from her.

I’m sure she was upset about him not loving her at first, esp before she starts to get an inkling that’s he’s gay, as we see with the bedroom fight in s4, but even in that scene, she’s more upset about the fact that he’s lying to her, that he denies that he never says it. She’s upset that he doesn’t say it/write it, sure, but the main upset imo comes from him lying about it. Especially since even in s3, El was upset, sure, that Mike couldn’t come over to make out the day after Hopper threatened Mike. She was upset about that lack of love/affection! But she was more upset about the lying. She broke up with over the lying, not over him not coming to see her/display affection. Especially since when Mike explains why he couldn’t come over, because of hopper’s threats, if El was still solely focused on Mike loving her/that affection, she would have blamed hopper, as she’s done in the past, and let Mike off the hook. But she doesn’t. Because that’s not what she’s upset about- the lying is.

And I think that especially once El realizes that Mike not loving her had nothing to do with her, and everything to do with him and being gay, and that it’s not that he just loves Will more than her as a person, it’s that he could never love her at all, by NO fault of her own, she’s going to be more understanding.

Again I love bi and unlabelled Mike truthers but NARRATIVELY ALONE bc even tho messy situations like that DO happen irl, I feel like explicitly gay Mike works better because that way, El isn’t pitted against Will. It’s not a matter of actual choice between them, or who Mike loves more. It’s about never having loved El at all, by no fault of her own, because he was unable to. Somebody like El, who feels unloveable, getting an ending where Mike reveals that he just loves Will more? Even if he did ever love her? And even if he never loved her but is still bin, that still shows that there’s something about El as a person that Mike does not love. But if Mike is gay, then it’s not about El at all. It’s not about her being unloveable or loved less compared to Will- it’s about Mike and who he is able to love and his lack of attraction to women.

That’s one of the big things for me about gay Mike from a narrative standpoint and why I believe it’s been set up from the beginning ESPECIALLY in regards to his relationship with El and why El is written the way that she is- it immediately recontextualizes Mike and el’s relationship both for the audience and for El. It shows that El, who has felt unloveable, felt like a monster, felt that she can only be loved as a superhero, and never loved for herself, is not unloveable. It’s that Mike is incapable of loving her. She is not incapable of BEING loved, Mike is incapable of loving her.

If Mike was portrayed as attracted to women and genuinely romantically in love with El at one point, then when Byler becomes canon, it’s about a choice of El over will, which again happens irl for sure, and Mike would not be wrong or bad for making that choice, but NARRATIVELY because these are characters who have themes and arcs and allegories, Mike being anything but gay imply that there is something about El as a person that he doesn’t love, that he won’t love, that there is something about El that is unloveable, which feels like a poor way to address the arc of a character who has canonically felt unloved for the majority of her life and feels unloveable.

But once Mike is confirmed to be gay, it’s not about El at all. It’s about Mike. It’s not that she can’t be loved, it’s that HE can’t love her. He is not physically capable of it. And absolutely, Bi people are MORE than capable of not loving certain people, that they can’t love them because they don’t like who they are as a person, or aren’t attracted to them as a person physically and personality wise, but if Mike is gay, he also literally CANT love her but not because of who she is or what she looks like or anything to do with El- it’s because of who MIKE is. Millie even said herself that Mike Can’t love El in the way that she wants him to. It’s not that he won’t or doesn’t want to, it’s that he can’t.

Like I said, I know that messy situations about falling out of love with someone happen irl, and Mike wouldn’t be wrong or bad for that, not at all. (he’d be wrong for lying about it though just like how he’s wrong for lying about not loving El int he context of being gay). But narratively, if Mike is anything but gay, then there is SOMETHING about El as a person, physically or personality wise or both that he does not like. Which again is valid and happens irl- but when it comes to el’s narrative as a character, as someone who’s centered around feeling unloved for who she is as a person, it’s not the best way to handle that narrative imo, especially if we still want Mike and El to be close/friends the end, which I think is what the duffers are going for, esp since like I said, due to her upbringing and unique character, El wouldn’t hate Mike for being gay/be upset with him because of that. But she IS upset about the idea that there’s something about HER that is unloveable (see: the way she tries to change herself and act like someone she’s not at the airport and rink o mania) and she IS upset about Mike lying to her. So if Mike just doesn’t love HER/loves will more, which, if he’s anything but gay, is the case, then it’s hard to resolve things between Mike and El in a positive way because they get hit but a.) El’s upset about Mike not loving her for who she is/feeling unlovable and b.) Mike lying to her. But if Mike is gay, then a.) is removed, and it’s just upset about Mike lying to her, which, him lying to her about being gay, like I said, is something that I think that El could understand without hating him for it, without being homophobic towards him because of her unique character and upbringing.

And I think that’s the big thing about Mike and his inability to say “I love you” to El. It’s not that he won’t say it or that he doesn’t want to, because then why not just frame it around Mike not being ready to grow up and say it? It’s that he can’t, it’s framed that he can’t say it, he physically cannot get the words out during the aisle scene in season 3 or during the bedroom fight scene. He only manages to say it when El is dying- the only reason why he CAN say it then is because he’s not saying it to El when she’s conscious, and because of something I’m going to explain here but also more in depth during the analysis:

If Mike not being able to say I love you = Mike being gay, and, as I’m going to talk in my analysis, Mike throughout s4 likely knows he is gay/is figuring it out for sure throughout s4 but is trying to decide whether to be in or out of the closet. So, the monologue is his ripping off the bandaid, his “I’m not going to come out as gay I’m going to hide this forever, as far as anyone knows I’m not gay” moment. And that’s why he can say “I love you” (in addition to the fact that he doesn’t even know if El can hear it), because in that moment, for the rest of his life, he thinks he is going to be not gay (gay = not able to say ily, not gay = can’t say ily). But just like other parts of the monologue, which are verifiably untrue, it’s not true. Mike is gay and isn’t going to be in the closet for the rest of his life, regardless of what he thinks. His monologue/attempt to make that choice FAILED, it was full of lies. Mike is lying to himself and to El in that scene. He’s not going to stay in the closet forever. He doesn’t love her.

Again, like I said, Mike is framed in a way where it’s about the idea that he CANNOT say he loves her, like PHYSICALLY CANNOT rather than the idea that he’s not ready, or doesn’t want to. Because he does. That’s the thing. Mike, part of him WANTS to love El, wants to be “normal,” wants to love her in the way she deserves and feels guilty for not being able to do so. We see this in his character. Part of him WANTS to love her, part of him he WANTS to say it but he CANT. They’ve framed it not as personal choice, not as him not liking El/hating her, because he DOES care for her as a person, he DOES idolize her even and DOES care about her, genuinely. But he CANT love her romantically. It’s not that he won’t, or doesn’t want to because there’s something he doesn’t like about El as a person- it’s because he CANT, because he’s gay. It’s not about El at all.

He CANT say it until the monologue. And when he does, like I said, it’s tied to lies about himself and about trying to ‘choose not to be gay/come out of the closet’. He CAN say it in that moment because in a weird way, in his mind, he’s “not gay anymore” because he’s choosing to stay in the closet forever (which is NOT how it works you can’t choose it of course but MIKE needs to realize this, realize that being in the closet forever and acting as if he’s not gay doesn’t make him able to love El, doesn’t make him not gay, even if it makes him able to say it, and even then, he can’t say it to be conscious face and again it’s tied to other lies.)

Narratively, if Mike wheeler is explicitly gay, then it’s not a choice- what isn’t a choice? Not loving El is not a choice. The love triangle is not a choice. The ‘choice’ between Will and El isn’t actually a choice. There IS NO LOVE TRIANGLE. THATS THE THING THE LOVE TRIANGLE DOES NOT EXIST!! BECAUSE EL IS NOT A VIABLE OPTION FOR MIKE!! WILL AND ELL ARENT PITTED AGAINST EACHOTHER BECAUSE THERE IS NO CHOICE RHERE IS NO LOVE TRIANGLE!! Just like how being gay isn’t a choice. And even though el’s an “option” in the sense that Mike could choose to stay in the closet, choose to try and act like he loves her, choose to be her boyfriend, it’s called a LOVE TRIANGLE, not a RELATIONSHIP triangle.

It’s about LOVE, it’s about Mike’s feelings, even if Mike and El stayed as boyfriend and girlfriend until they died and in this exact “love triangle” scenario they’re in now where Mike so with El but had feelings for will, there would still BE NO LOVE TRIANGLE because Mike CANNOT LOVE EL. ITS NOT A RELATIONSHIP TRIANGLE ITS NOT ABOUT WHO HES IN A RELATIONSHIP/CHOOSING TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH!! THE RELATIONSHIP TRIANGLE COULD EXIST!!! SURE!! BUT ITS CALLED A LOVE TRIANGLE BECAUSE ITS ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL AND WHO YOU LOVE AND MIKE CANNOT LOVE EL BECAUSE HES GAY!! EVEN THOUGH HE HAS TO CHOOSE WHAT RELATIONSHIP TO BE IN, HES NOT CHOOSING LOVE. RELATIONSHIP DOES NOT EQUAL LOVE!! MIKES CHOICE IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS NOT LOVE!! HIS LOVE IS NOT THE CHOICE!! Because if it was, if mike was anything other than gay and his love was a choice between Will and El, choosing betwene his love for both of them, like I said, it’s way more difficult narratively and more importantly, difficulty aside, because ST does not shy away from difficulty, does not align with the narrative as a whole, nor the arcs and underlying themes of each individual character, such as things like El’s arc regarding feeling unloveable.

The love triangle does not exist! There is no choice! I’ve seen people frame it as “the GA needs to realize that Will is a viable love triangle choice for Mike,” but I think that people may want to try looking at it with the lens that it isn’t true that Will is a viable love triangle choice for Mike, the GA are right in that weird regard, although not in the way they think they are. Because the love triangle does not exist because El is not a viable choice for Mike either. Will is not a viable choice for Mike!! Because there’s no choice!! If the love triangle was between Mike and two other men, then Will would be a viable choice. But it’s not. Will is not a viable choice because there’s no choice at all. Even if Mike didn’t love Will as a person in this current in-show love triangle scenario, which he does, there still would be no choice between them because the only option would be Will. So he’s technically not a viable choice in the love triangle because THERE IS NO CHOICE!! He’s a viable choice for mike’s love, sure, in the context of Will versus other men. But not a viable choice in the love triangle because THERE IS NO CHOICE THERE IS NOBODY EXCEPT WILL TO CHOOSE FROM WITHJN THE WILL EL MIKE LOVE TRIANGLE!! Will is not a viable choice and El is also not a viable choice because again, there’s no choice at all because Mike is gay.

Like cmon! The duffers LOVE flipping things on their head, and how would a love triangle be any different? The flip is that IT DOESNT EXIST!! The “choice” that’s inherent to a love triangle is not a choice at all! And I think that’s part of why they showed us the stancy jancy love triangle in s4, to show that Nancy DOES have to make a choice, unlike Mike, who is not making a choice because there is no choice to be made.

Anyway this is a ramble and I’m still refining my thoughts, but I’m gonna address it fully in the analysis.

[starsarefire824]

Sorry to unload Byler into your askbox but I am going *insane* with the concept of Mike knowing and understanding that he likes Will, even before the Big Reveal(tm) and the only reason that he hasn't acted on it is bc he has internalised some wild homophobia/self hatred and like maybe he also has some vague idea that Will is possibly queer and yeah it's fine if it's his friend and he will defend him until death but god forbid Mike is queer

No worries anon! I don't mind at all. I am actually going to go on a very long rant about this so buckle up. (Sorry everyone)

I think Mike's feelings revolving around Will are extremely complicated. I am wary of the idea that Mike knows and understands his feelings for Will directly. I think that the repression is real for Mike unfortunately.

That being said, I think that people's opinion's of Mike's behavior in season 3 and 4 being the way it was is because he's straight is completely wrong. If anything, it just proves to me more that he's queer. (I am a bi mike truther, and I think that having any positive bi representation is always a wonderful and a much needed thing, but in truth, I am not too attached to any, specific idea for him. Gay, bi, pan, unlabeled. It doesn't matter to me. He is queer lol) I do love the idea of him being bi, because I think it explains some of his back and forth and confusing behavior that we've seen from the beginning. I also think it is a very real reason as to why he is so confused and repressed. As someone who didn't have "the revelation" until my twenties, but also have had some very complicated relationships that didn't make sense until after I had that realization, I honestly really feel for Mike. I get him.

That’s why I have to laugh when people say if people's opinions on Mike and Will are based on subtext then they are looking too much into it. What people like that don’t understand is literally most queer people’s lives, especially when they are young and coming of age IS ALL ENTIRELY SUBTEXT. And the time period this show takes place in only exasperates that.

Things are never said out loud, true feelings are veiled with other issues, people are jealous and they don’t know why, they can’t figure out why they want that one friend all to themselves, why does it hurt so much when they choose to be with someone else? The way Mike acted in these seasons was very deliberate imo. He’s pushing Will away on purpose in season 3. And why is it exactly, that Mike can never balance Will and El emotionally when they are expecting and asking things of him?

So to answer your question lol after this tangent just keeps getting longer, I’m not convinced Mike truly knows why he feels like he needs to do that in season 3, but it doesn’t change the fact that his behavior is and can be very normal for queer kids figuring out their shit.

In that season, it's entirely to do with repression and nothing to do with him not wanting to play d&d anymore. So yes, internalized homophobia and self-hatred and denial of feelings is strong in Mike's character. Much more so than Will. Will has his issues and definitely has a lot of pain and feels like a "mistake" sometimes. We can see that shown to us in the destruction of castle byers scene. But as far as self-awareness and accepting himself for who he is, Will has never had too much of a problem with that. Will has never tried to be someone he's not. He has never given into a relationship or a situation because "it's what you're supposed to do" or to hide himself in anyway. I feel like Will is pretty unapologetically himself, even with his insecurities. That's why, imo, he receives the brunt of the bullying out of all the boys, especially in the beginning of the show. He doesn't change his clothes or his hobbies or his quiet sweetness. His true self never falters. The only time I can think of a time where he does anything like that is when he dances with the girl in season 2. But who's the one that pushes him to do it? That had more to do with pleasing Mike than it did with trying to be untrue to himself. And we've seen obviously from the scene in the classroom in season four that Will has most certainly not continued to do that as he's matured.

As for Mike, I think that season 4 something shifts a little bit. I think that Mike had a bit of a revelation at the end of season three and I think that being separated from El and Will really made him realize some things. Is he ready to face what that actually means in his relationship with Will? No, not in my opinion. But the way he so quickly and honestly responds to the fight in Rink-O-Mania (one last push for Mike to push Will away) and Will's support regarding El's letter in Jonathan's bedroom to me really is showing how Mike's feeling. He wants/needs things to be good between them. He wants Will in his life. He wants things to go back the way they were in season 1 and 2. He finally gives Will the attention he has so desperately asked for for two seasons all while struggling with this "issue" of telling his girlfriend he loves her. I think that the uncertainty and push/pull he is feeling is actually painful to watch. Because Mike does love El. And as Finn Wolfhard said, "he just wants to be normal." Normal is telling your girlfriend you love her. Normal is being in a relationship with a girl. Normal is not choosing your best friend over your girlfriend. Normal is putting her first. And so he does go through with it, but I really deep down believe that that is not what he really wants. I really think that since the end of season 3 Mike has realized that he also wants to spend his life in the basement with his best friend. Has he figured out that that love is romantic and that his feelings are sexual? I don't think he's completely figured that out yet. But I do think we'll get some more scenes of Mike having ??? in season 5, even before the Big Reveal. And i think that internal homophobia, self-denial, and refusal to accept who he really is all played a part in Mike's struggle.

[aemiron-main]

this show makes me insane the gay Mike analysis makes me insane the way that el’s character form the very beginning aligns perfectly with an arc about Mike being gay/having never loved El romantically is INSANE because it would never work with any other character/girl that isn’t El especially not without ruining their friendship in the end.

But long story short (gonna talk about this at length in the analysis) because El is who she is and is the character that she is, raised in a lab but still loving but also knows how to hold her own etc, she’s been raised outside of the typical heteronormative homophobic society, narratively she’s PERFECT for gay Mike in a show where you’re not supposed to hate people for being gay. Because in the end, when El and the audience find out that Mike never loved El romantically because he’s gay (which imo is very much already demonstrated regardless of s5), El isn’t going to hate him for being gay or be upset that he’s gay the way that somebody who was raised in a heteronormative/homophobic society and then had their heart broken by a gay man likely would. El isn’t going to hate him for anything imo but she’s going to be upset with him but NOT not going to be upset with him because he’s gay/never loved her: she’s going to be upset with him because he lied to her and his from her.

I’m sure she was upset about him not loving her at first, esp before she starts to get an inkling that’s he’s gay, as we see with the bedroom fight in s4, but even in that scene, she’s more upset about the fact that he’s lying to her, that he denies that he never says it. She’s upset that he doesn’t say it/write it, sure, but the main upset imo comes from him lying about it. Especially since even in s3, El was upset, sure, that Mike couldn’t come over to make out the day after Hopper threatened Mike. She was upset about that lack of love/affection! But she was more upset about the lying. She broke up with over the lying, not over him not coming to see her/display affection. Especially since when Mike explains why he couldn’t come over, because of hopper’s threats, if El was still solely focused on Mike loving her/that affection, she would have blamed hopper, as she’s done in the past, and let Mike off the hook. But she doesn’t. Because that’s not what she’s upset about- the lying is.

And I think that especially once El realizes that Mike not loving her had nothing to do with her, and everything to do with him and being gay, and that it’s not that he just loves Will more than her as a person, it’s that he could never love her at all, by NO fault of her own, she’s going to be more understanding.

Again I love bi and unlabelled Mike truthers but NARRATIVELY ALONE bc even tho messy situations like that DO happen irl, I feel like explicitly gay Mike works better because that way, El isn’t pitted against Will. It’s not a matter of actual choice between them, or who Mike loves more. It’s about never having loved El at all, by no fault of her own, because he was unable to. Somebody like El, who feels unloveable, getting an ending where Mike reveals that he just loves Will more? Even if he did ever love her? And even if he never loved her but is still bin, that still shows that there’s something about El as a person that Mike does not love. But if Mike is gay, then it’s not about El at all. It’s not about her being unloveable or loved less compared to Will- it’s about Mike and who he is able to love and his lack of attraction to women.

That’s one of the big things for me about gay Mike from a narrative standpoint and why I believe it’s been set up from the beginning ESPECIALLY in regards to his relationship with El and why El is written the way that she is- it immediately recontextualizes Mike and el’s relationship both for the audience and for El. It shows that El, who has felt unloveable, felt like a monster, felt that she can only be loved as a superhero, and never loved for herself, is not unloveable. It’s that Mike is incapable of loving her. She is not incapable of BEING loved, Mike is incapable of loving her.

If Mike was portrayed as attracted to women and genuinely romantically in love with El at one point, then when Byler becomes canon, it’s about a choice of El over will, which again happens irl for sure, and Mike would not be wrong or bad for making that choice, but NARRATIVELY because these are characters who have themes and arcs and allegories, Mike being anything but gay imply that there is something about El as a person that he doesn’t love, that he won’t love, that there is something about El that is unloveable, which feels like a poor way to address the arc of a character who has canonically felt unloved for the majority of her life and feels unloveable.

But once Mike is confirmed to be gay, it’s not about El at all. It’s about Mike. It’s not that she can’t be loved, it’s that HE can’t love her. He is not physically capable of it. And absolutely, Bi people are MORE than capable of not loving certain people, that they can’t love them because they don’t like who they are as a person, or aren’t attracted to them as a person physically and personality wise, but if Mike is gay, he also literally CANT love her but not because of who she is or what she looks like or anything to do with El- it’s because of who MIKE is. Millie even said herself that Mike Can’t love El in the way that she wants him to. It’s not that he won’t or doesn’t want to, it’s that he can’t.

Like I said, I know that messy situations about falling out of love with someone happen irl, and Mike wouldn’t be wrong or bad for that, not at all. (he’d be wrong for lying about it though just like how he’s wrong for lying about not loving El int he context of being gay). But narratively, if Mike is anything but gay, then there is SOMETHING about El as a person, physically or personality wise or both that he does not like. Which again is valid and happens irl- but when it comes to el’s narrative as a character, as someone who’s centered around feeling unloved for who she is as a person, it’s not the best way to handle that narrative imo, especially if we still want Mike and El to be close/friends the end, which I think is what the duffers are going for, esp since like I said, due to her upbringing and unique character, El wouldn’t hate Mike for being gay/be upset with him because of that. But she IS upset about the idea that there’s something about HER that is unloveable (see: the way she tries to change herself and act like someone she’s not at the airport and rink o mania) and she IS upset about Mike lying to her. So if Mike just doesn’t love HER/loves will more, which, if he’s anything but gay, is the case, then it’s hard to resolve things between Mike and El in a positive way because they get hit but a.) El’s upset about Mike not loving her for who she is/feeling unlovable and b.) Mike lying to her. But if Mike is gay, then a.) is removed, and it’s just upset about Mike lying to her, which, him lying to her about being gay, like I said, is something that I think that El could understand without hating him for it, without being homophobic towards him because of her unique character and upbringing.

And I think that’s the big thing about Mike and his inability to say “I love you” to El. It’s not that he won’t say it or that he doesn’t want to, because then why not just frame it around Mike not being ready to grow up and say it? It’s that he can’t, it’s framed that he can’t say it, he physically cannot get the words out during the aisle scene in season 3 or during the bedroom fight scene. He only manages to say it when El is dying- the only reason why he CAN say it then is because he’s not saying it to El when she’s conscious, and because of something I’m going to explain here but also more in depth during the analysis:

If Mike not being able to say I love you = Mike being gay, and, as I’m going to talk in my analysis, Mike throughout s4 likely knows he is gay/is figuring it out for sure throughout s4 but is trying to decide whether to be in or out of the closet. So, the monologue is his ripping off the bandaid, his “I’m not going to come out as gay I’m going to hide this forever, as far as anyone knows I’m not gay” moment. And that’s why he can say “I love you” (in addition to the fact that he doesn’t even know if El can hear it), because in that moment, for the rest of his life, he thinks he is going to be not gay (gay = not able to say ily, not gay = can’t say ily). But just like other parts of the monologue, which are verifiably untrue, it’s not true. Mike is gay and isn’t going to be in the closet for the rest of his life, regardless of what he thinks. His monologue/attempt to make that choice FAILED, it was full of lies. Mike is lying to himself and to El in that scene. He’s not going to stay in the closet forever. He doesn’t love her.

Again, like I said, Mike is framed in a way where it’s about the idea that he CANNOT say he loves her, like PHYSICALLY CANNOT rather than the idea that he’s not ready, or doesn’t want to. Because he does. That’s the thing. Mike, part of him WANTS to love El, wants to be “normal,” wants to love her in the way she deserves and feels guilty for not being able to do so. We see this in his character. Part of him WANTS to love her, part of him he WANTS to say it but he CANT. They’ve framed it not as personal choice, not as him not liking El/hating her, because he DOES care for her as a person, he DOES idolize her even and DOES care about her, genuinely. But he CANT love her romantically. It’s not that he won’t, or doesn’t want to because there’s something he doesn’t like about El as a person- it’s because he CANT, because he’s gay. It’s not about El at all.

He CANT say it until the monologue. And when he does, like I said, it’s tied to lies about himself and about trying to ‘choose not to be gay/come out of the closet’. He CAN say it in that moment because in a weird way, in his mind, he’s “not gay anymore” because he’s choosing to stay in the closet forever (which is NOT how it works you can’t choose it of course but MIKE needs to realize this, realize that being in the closet forever and acting as if he’s not gay doesn’t make him able to love El, doesn’t make him not gay, even if it makes him able to say it, and even then, he can’t say it to be conscious face and again it’s tied to other lies.)

Narratively, if Mike wheeler is explicitly gay, then it’s not a choice- what isn’t a choice? Not loving El is not a choice. The love triangle is not a choice. The ‘choice’ between Will and El isn’t actually a choice. There IS NO LOVE TRIANGLE. THATS THE THING THE LOVE TRIANGLE DOES NOT EXIST!! BECAUSE EL IS NOT A VIABLE OPTION FOR MIKE!! WILL AND ELL ARENT PITTED AGAINST EACHOTHER BECAUSE THERE IS NO CHOICE RHERE IS NO LOVE TRIANGLE!! Just like how being gay isn’t a choice. And even though el’s an “option” in the sense that Mike could choose to stay in the closet, choose to try and act like he loves her, choose to be her boyfriend, it’s called a LOVE TRIANGLE, not a RELATIONSHIP triangle.

It’s about LOVE, it’s about Mike’s feelings, even if Mike and El stayed as boyfriend and girlfriend until they died and in this exact “love triangle” scenario they’re in now where Mike so with El but had feelings for will, there would still BE NO LOVE TRIANGLE because Mike CANNOT LOVE EL. ITS NOT A RELATIONSHIP TRIANGLE ITS NOT ABOUT WHO HES IN A RELATIONSHIP/CHOOSING TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH!! THE RELATIONSHIP TRIANGLE COULD EXIST!!! SURE!! BUT ITS CALLED A LOVE TRIANGLE BECAUSE ITS ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL AND WHO YOU LOVE AND MIKE CANNOT LOVE EL BECAUSE HES GAY!! EVEN THOUGH HE HAS TO CHOOSE WHAT RELATIONSHIP TO BE IN, HES NOT CHOOSING LOVE. RELATIONSHIP DOES NOT EQUAL LOVE!! MIKES CHOICE IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS NOT LOVE!! HIS LOVE IS NOT THE CHOICE!! Because if it was, if mike was anything other than gay and his love was a choice between Will and El, choosing betwene his love for both of them, like I said, it’s way more difficult narratively and more importantly, difficulty aside, because ST does not shy away from difficulty, does not align with the narrative as a whole, nor the arcs and underlying themes of each individual character, such as things like El’s arc regarding feeling unloveable.

The love triangle does not exist! There is no choice! I’ve seen people frame it as “the GA needs to realize that Will is a viable love triangle choice for Mike,” but I think that people may want to try looking at it with the lens that it isn’t true that Will is a viable love triangle choice for Mike, the GA are right in that weird regard, although not in the way they think they are. Because the love triangle does not exist because El is not a viable choice for Mike either. Will is not a viable choice for Mike!! Because there’s no choice!! If the love triangle was between Mike and two other men, then Will would be a viable choice. But it’s not. Will is not a viable choice because there’s no choice at all. Even if Mike didn’t love Will as a person in this current in-show love triangle scenario, which he does, there still would be no choice between them because the only option would be Will. So he’s technically not a viable choice in the love triangle because THERE IS NO CHOICE!! He’s a viable choice for mike’s love, sure, in the context of Will versus other men. But not a viable choice in the love triangle because THERE IS NO CHOICE THERE IS NOBODY EXCEPT WILL TO CHOOSE FROM WITHJN THE WILL EL MIKE LOVE TRIANGLE!! Will is not a viable choice and El is also not a viable choice because again, there’s no choice at all because Mike is gay.

Like cmon! The duffers LOVE flipping things on their head, and how would a love triangle be any different? The flip is that IT DOESNT EXIST!! The “choice” that’s inherent to a love triangle is not a choice at all! And I think that’s part of why they showed us the stancy jancy love triangle in s4, to show that Nancy DOES have to make a choice, unlike Mike, who is not making a choice because there is no choice to be made.

Anyway this is a ramble and I’m still refining my thoughts, but I’m gonna address it fully in the analysis.