#and shiv goes to ask frank and karl 'how bad was dad'

[r-osehips]

Shiv chose Frank and Karl to ask "how bad" Logan was because subconsciously she knew that if she asked the women of the old guard she would have gotten a different answer, or the same placating lie but intentionally very thinly veiled. what was that line when the cruises stuff was going out when Ken and Roman tried to say she knew all the bad stuff all along and she was like no I was a kid all I knew was not to go in the pool with Dad's friends........ she knows. she knows because she, on Logan's behalf, personally intimidated a rape survivor out of testifying. but she can't allow herself to know. so she goes to the men she can trust to lie, and asks for the truth.

[moonlit-void-to-the-far-unknown]

“I’d lay you badly but I’d lay you gladly” (Roman Roy x fem!reader)

An: I’m gonna try. Let’s see how this goes. As an asexual (demisexual panromantic) I can feel it in my asexual bones that Roman is so part of the asexual club. Like he’s panromantic for sure he will date and flirt and be with anyone who makes him feel ~wiggly~ so to speak. I think he felt it with Gerri, and felt it with Tabitha. He feels like that pull toward them. And if given the chance he probs does want to bang. Like, he just never has that talk of ‘oh if I just stop thinking and let this person who I trust more then anything know what’s going on in my brain space then it works’ like our man is just. I love him because I am him.

I’m gonna tag @romeulusroy because I heard they were having a bad day and maybe soft roman can help

He liked looking at her when she didn’t know he was, he liked the feeling she gave him. A rush inside that he’s felt so few times in his life. Roman liked her smile, the way her lips split to show her teeth, the way her nose wrinkled when she didn’t like something. He liked her. Liked her? No he was pretty sure he loved her. Well what he assumed was love, he was pretty sure he’s only ever felt the emotion a handful of times.

Once when he was a kid and found a baby duck in the backyard pond of his mothers villa, it was so small and he helped it back into the pond where it’s family was. He remembers the feeling of warmth watching the mother goose bump it’s little tail back into place. He imagined every duck he saw after was somehow that one duck growing and visiting him.

He remembers the feeling when connor had popped him on the bathroom counter and bandaged up his scraped and bleeding knee. Connor was what he assumed his friends parents were like. He liked feeling cared for. Even if it was rare.

He likes listening to her ramble about her bullshit job of being a coffee runner most days, how she wishes she could punch Karl or frank or even his dad in the face when they forget her name, even though she’s worked under Gerri for at least 2 years.

He loves waking up next to her, always before her, something in him, maybe because of military school, maybe because he always wanted to be up before his siblings to hope that his dad would let him join him at the office, or to get the best pieces of bacon or toast for breakfast. Not anymore, now it was to be able to have the few moments of staring at her. Her softened face against the pillows, her worry stripped from her forehead. The moments when he could scratch her scalp lightly with his fingers and she would just sigh in her sleep.

He loved her. He would marry her if the fear of a marriage being the prison of unhappy people. From his parents to Tom and shiv and even Kendall. Though he would push all of it away if it meant a forever of seeing her like this.

He remembers the conversation that made him fall. Hard and fast and slamming him into the cold pavement.

“I’d lay you badly but I’d lay you gladly” it was a joke, she had laughed slightly looking down at her computer typing a report or email for Gerri or Karl or whoever was yanking her around this week.

“Roman we both know neither of us would enjoy that” it stung, she was right, but it stung.

“I mean I would rock your world for like a solid 3 seconds before you realise I have zero clue what’s going on” she had looked at him, cocking her head to the side, eye brow raised

“Roman. Can I ask you something.” He was caught off guard, his own walls coming up slightly, shrugging he looked around

“Yeah what’s up” he didn’t know why he couldn’t look at her suddenly but he just couldn’t.

“Do you know what asexuality is?” Asexuality? Obviously he did, biology and science was one class he knew he passed with more then a barley passing grade.

“Like fucking ameba and shit. They fuck themselves and bam! Another single celled whatever” she laughed, he turned to her then smiling a bit more

“I mean in the biology, organisms sense yeah, but like I mean in people,” Roman shrugged again shaking his head a little

“Some new fancy label the ‘woke’ mob has made to make people like my dad and Kendall rage for no reason?” She shook her head at that

“No Roman it means you don’t really like banging. Like, you could live with out it. So to speak, you could go your whole life never caring to want it. It wouldn’t change anything. And weird bathroom door Jack off sessions aside, it means your just not that into the whole sex thing” he felt his face flush at her mention of his brief weird relationship with Gerri. He simply looked at her

“I mean sex is…super cool….I love fucking, all night, we could do it right now, and it would be…explosive” he knew she could hear through his wavered tone

“Roman, do you know why I haven’t even pushed having sex?”

“I don’t know your weird and religious upbringing scared you for life with trauma?”

“Good guess but no…I’m asexual. Like, sex is just, a thing, I don’t care if we have it, or not, we could never and I would be 1000% okay with that. I don’t need you to bang me, how ever satisfying or not it would be, because I just, don’t need it.”

Roman stared at her then, his brain buzzing, heart slamming in his chest, he assumed like grace and Tabitha, one day you would clamber for him to attempt the unsuccessful routine of making out, hand stuff above his pants, a seemingly awkward game of red light green light before both of you gave up and you walked off to finish yourself in his bathroom.

“Roman, i haven’t brought it up, because if we never have sex ever, I wouldn’t care. It wouldn’t matter.”

He wanted to scream, and cry and hug her. He didn’t know why but he did. He simply stood up, walked over to her, yanked her up and kissed her. His hands holding her cheeks, hoping she understood what he meant in it.

When he pulled away she smiled at him nodding

“One day we may, who knows, but one thing is for sure. We’ll both lay each other badly”

“But gladly?”

“Yeah, but gladly”

[cakebatteronabrickwall]

I don’t know whether I’m getting the wrong idea but I really got the impression in that scene that Shiv realised Roman had experienced some form of sexual abuse. I was never a supporter of that theory but I honestly can’t read that situation any differently. She’s clearly watching Roman’s reaction and lightbulbs go off in her head for whatever reason which leads her to ask the old guard how bad her dad actually was, and she and her brothers had experienced Logan’s emotional abuse and she witnessed Roman’s physical abuse so what else could it be?

Oh, anon, short answer is- I don't know.

But I'll give you a long one, too. (And I made the important bits bold, haha)

First of all, I'm also not really in support of the csa theory, mainly because it asks the viewer to do a lot of inbetween the lines reading, more so than Succession already does on the regular. Secondly, and I hope I don't sound like a dick, I find it a little bit too much. But. Considering that a) there are indeed hints + some cut stuff from the scripts implying it and b) Succession is inspired by "Festen" (and csa is sort of the topic of that film) it is not impossible. Most things in this show aren't impossible if you have a valid argument, which this theory does.

But you are asking me. Personally, "lightbulb moment" yes, 100% love that phrasing. What I think it is- like you said- is Shiv seeing her worst suspicions about abuse (emotional, physical, not sexual) reflected so clearly to her by Roman. Roman of all people, the one that always jokes and makes light of his own abuse and messy inner world. She is starting to connect the dots of bad childhood memories (one of which she just talked about in front of everyone and made it into a somewhat positive thing) and real impact. Like, we know getting yelled at for playing in front of the office might not be the end of that story, especially not for Roman's side but that is left open. But, I guess, Shiv would know. And she would know that there is a direct line from back then to how she sees her brother act and react now. I can't believe I'm saying it, but it's almost like Roman became a real person to her just now.

But she can't have those dots connect right now, because there is business to be done and a father to imitate while doing so. So, she goes to Frank and Karl, she knows they will give her an answer she can live with for now. I think Frank says something like "he was a tough old nut" but, unfortunatly, that other "what you see is what you get" comment is not at all what Shiv wanted to hear, since she did see all kinds of things and there is no good to balance it, not even from the old guard.

On a side note, I also find it interesting that the scene is shot in a way where the story seems to ask Shiv "Will you follow your brother for a real answer or go for the easy way out" and then, when even the easy way is not satisfactory, she doesn't try again. (I do so hope she tries again in the finale)

tl,dr: anon, you are not getting it wrong, i think there are many ways to read this and the ambiguous space that question exists in is exactly what makes it so haunting.