#and probably a more adept cleric than shadowheart

[trappedinafantasy37]

I too always give her swords over the maces cause I always spec her as a Rogue Paladin which requires a primary Dex stat. It is also interesting to note that the two finesse long swords in the game both tie back to elven dieties that Lolth hates (with Phalar Aluve being Eilistraee and Larethian's Wrath being Correlon).

I love your point about how the maces symbolize who she used to be and who the Absolute wanted her to be. And by dropping the maces, she gets to become her own person. When you first meet her, she does have the Xyanyde, a mace she probably had with her when she left the Underdark. And the only way to get it is to loot it off her (either by killing or knocking her out) and you can ONLY get it in Act 1. You can only get her signature weapon while she is a thrall of the Absolute. Once you get into Act 2, it is gone for good.

When you recruit her, she is unarmed (she may also have a standard knife depending on if you fight the Questioners). Her title for the longest time also used to be "Minthara: True Soul of the Absolute" and as of Patch 7, it got swapped out to "Minthara: Menzoberranzan Exile". The moment she is freed from the Absolute, free from Lolth, she can be whomever she wants to be now and does not have to live to such strict expectations. She will always carry a piece of Menzoberranzan with her as she never denies her heritage. But she can now decide that it isn't who she has to be anymore. From here, you can give her a sword, a mace, a dagger, a bow, just about anything really.

But she also has another little trinket that she also brought from the Underdark, the Spider Lyre. Minthara and Nere are the only ways to get this lyre as it is very useful in getting Kar'niss to escort you to Moonrise. Despite Minthara vocally expressing disgust in Kar'niss, he too is a symbol of her home and her past. And despite Kar'niss being sworn to the Absolute now, he too will answer to the spider lyre, a symbol of the home he is no longer welcome too. Between Kar'niss, Minthara, and Nere, Nere is the only one who even seems interested in returning to Lolth and returning to his old life. Kar'niss on the other hand is mad, but clearly has no allegiance to Lolth. Minthara despises the Spider Queen, but also expresses not knowing who she really is without Lolth.

She even mentions how she was raised to be a soldier of Lolth, so her life path was already dictated by cultural and family burdens. In which her going down the path of a cleric would eventually end with her being a Priestess and potential High Priestess of House Baenre. But at some point, she went down the path of a paladin and it is unknown why she chose that path. But it was probably the first real significant choice she made in her life, but it still had to fit the expectation of being a soldier.

In many ways throughout the game, she acts in the ways that you would expect any other drow of her station. But in many other ways, she's a refreshing surprise. It's a slow start for her, but she does begin to deconstruct the way she views the world, society, and the people within it. But there are also so many things that she is holding onto and struggling to let go of.

The Misunderstood Blunt Instrument

Two Minthara posts from yesterday (this one about the glorious new wallpapers and this one about her weapons and armor) got me thinking about The Mace as her weapon of choice. If I recall correctly the fandom has touched on bits of it already, so I won't go too long on this (and forgive me if it's been mentioned already), but other than the two cited above my brief searches haven't yielded anything new. And what I got thinking about was how ditching the maces upon recruitment is almost essential.

Personally I never retain them as her melee weapons, for both mechanical and RP reasons. For the first it's because I routinely respec her to a Dex-based build and of course maces are Str-based. The second reason is because (and forgive me if I’m late to the party here) that as a paladin she’s a blunt instrument for whatever deity she’s sworn to: Lolth, the Absolute, etc. And once she’s free of both, she’s free to choose how to defend herself and/or her friends/lovers among the companions.

As noted here, the mace itself may be two fun call-backs in one—both to her EA version as a cleric and, as dual-wielded by an exile, to Drizzt's "draa velve" fighting style (and I'll take their word for it because I may be the only over-40 D&D fan who hasn't read Salvatore's books). But representing this with maces feels specifically like a reductive and more brutish or ugly choice—and the perfect encapsulation for what she's become while enthralled.

The Absolute (and/or the three Chosen) has sanded down all the complexities of Minthara's character into the "mad dog" epithet Ketheric dumps on her during her trial. I'd add (based on much better arguments by much smarter fans) that for the casual BG3 player this is all she is and all she'll ever be, especially if (as she notes after Orin's death) that if Tav/Durge had killed her, that would indeed be her fate.

The mace is also a symbol of Minthara's pre-tadpoled hubris of privilege, arrogance, and elitism in that it's the deadweight of how her life up to that point had sculpted her to precisely this outcome. A symbol of her trauma. "How the mighty have fallen" is a cliché, sure, but it's a cliché precisely because it's true and happens so often. The schadenfreude that fellow envious Lolth-sworn might feel when encountering this manic, raving caricature of their own culture! The shock that anyone who knew her from her previous life might feel about how she's changed for the worse! She candidly later admits that pride is one of her sins.

The mace is a great choice for an enthralled Minthara, but that makes it (for me) necessary to abandon when she's a companion. The mace helps further that convenient, simplistic, reactive, and reductive way of writing her off as just another male-hating Drow dominatrix. It helps any player confirm lazy priors about her, which might be why she's both blithely dismissed by some and jealously policed by others.

So that's why I always ditch those weapons and re-arm her with Phalar Aluve. It may be just as reductive, but I think it fits, because 1) it's a fab finesse weapon for Dex-based builds, 2) fuck you Lolth, this is a weapon of Eilistraee and Minthara will wield it at you if you come for her and anyone she loves, and 3) fuck you Absolute, she is not your blunt instrument anymore, and she will smite you with something entirely different and with extreme prejudice.

[randomfanner]

So, some more thoughts for the Orin gets Tadpoled AU, notably her relations with the other party.

General Headcanons - uses the fact she is a shapeshifter to hide she is a doppelgänger because Shadowheart pointed out the fact she looks just a tad bit suspicious, however when she is around the party she doesn't bother. She does use these abilities to get around pretty effectively (such as transforming into a Drow to get past the goblins and other good skips like that) and will transform to fit in(she changes into a tiefling around the tiefling, human around the druids, etc)

Violence is an answer however other people in the party teach her there are other ways.... and when people like Gale and Shadowheart begin to give her praise for being more crafty and cunning with her way of dealing with problems, well, why wouldn't she do what they like?

Whenever the urge pops pop she is very loud about it. "I SHALL TRIM THAT MEAT STUB FOR YOU" "WAIT STOP HER P L E A S E" and someone(notably Shadowheart) is able to stop her from doing something stupid. She gets better control and has to deal with the urge in general less than the Durge. (Astarion pouts whenever she is stopped)

She uses nicknames for everyone.

Lae'zel (Wondrous Blood-soaked Warrior) - Other than the fact Orin is pretty openly unhinged they get along pretty damn well. Lae'zel admires how good Orin is at killing, Orin admires how good Lae'zel is at killing. Plus Orin very much enjoys when Lae'zel gives her praise. When they get to the Creche though, Orin is not having a good time and begins to have some flashbacks to the temple of Bhaal especially during the trainee scene and may be pretty reactive which does cause some problems for the two of them, but after things are finished there Orin does her best to comfort Lae'zel for losing her anchor.

Shadowheart (Beloved Cleric) - Shadowheart and Orin are amnesia buddies. I also feel Orin freed Shadowheart from the nautiloid because the more allies the less lonely the better! Shadowheart isn't sure what to make of this gremlin who borders on almost murder, and ends up being Orin's voice of reason most of the time. Now this is just for me, but Shadowheart x Orin romance. Goth GFs who have family issues (that family just being a fucking cult) and need to find a place to belong and sense of being, so why not do that together? Plus we see Orin's hair, she does it herself probably, Shadowheart and Orin braid train.

Gale (Wizard) - Orin nearly cuts Gale's hand off and is barely stopped by Shadowheart, so it is uh, a bit of a rocky relationship at first. However Gale is willing to forgive and keep an eye on their new unhinged doppelgänger friend. I do think Gale wants to study Orin because how often are you traveling with such an adept shapeshifter? Orin of course adores the attention and answers any questions she can and they end up bonding over that. Orin has no problem parting with magical trinkets for the wizard and wishes to fight Mystra herself. Orin also finds herself very much enjoying his cooking considering she can't remember ever having suck well made food in her entire life.

Astarion (Bloodsucker) - Orin ends up doing good things to get approval from the two people she met and bonded with first, thus Astarion being a bitch about it gets him a look of distain from Orin. Besides, Orin being a rogue he is not needed in the party. However Orin has no qualms about his wish for blood and he is free to fill his thirst whenever he wishes.... Plus Astarion does enjoy the fucking wild things Orin tends to say.

Wyll (Fiery Blade) - You know Wyll is a bit freaked out at first with Orin for well, obvious reasons however when it is clear she is going to cause... notably less problems then one might expect, they end up getting along pretty well. Orin I think would enjoy his dramatics and listening to stories and begins to take cues from him when weaving her own tales. When he teaches her how to dance it is quite fun and she may get a bit too into it, however I can only see them being bros mostly because Orin is still yelling about draining people dry.

Karlach (Heated Axe that cuts enemies like butter) - I think these two loons get along so fucking well, Orin will use Karlach as a spring board once her engine is fixed to dive bomb enemies well Karlach will slaughter them from the front. When Orin hears of this 'Gortash' she makes note that they shall split him and wear his enthralls as a wondrous scarf, which Karlach is totally behind. Orin also keeps bringing Karlach hearts because "if the issue is someone took yours, surely it can be replaced. I will find as many hearts as needed to fix your problem" (Orin is not ready for the fact Karlach is dying because the two of them are besties)

@bhaalstemple I think you need this.

[dragonsfell]

“Did everyone see that? Because I will not be doing it, again.” @ lae'zel

Vlaakith is dead to her, but in this moment she would call for a truce if only to ask for the strength not to kick Tony with an iron boot. While in some degree of trust earned between them, even if he tends toward decisions that reflect he's nothing more than a worm wiggling in the earth and what was a worm to a sparrow and what was a sparrow to a hawk?

Lae'zel is the only one who was present for the artificer's recent stunt. Shadowheart would be far more apt for standing by to see Stark's device was going to explode in their faces. She should suffer, but the cleric would be more adept at stitching him back together if lost a foot or something. They had been pocketing as much gunpowder the past few days among other materials for whatever contraption Tony had been building. His so-called solution to craggy rock walls and tough to cross chasms.

Rope and vigorous stamina worked just fine for her, githyanki psionics may factor in her jumping aptitude as well.

❝ No. ❞ She lies, because Lae'zel had been watching as well as she knew for fact he would be doing that again. And again. And she'd probably get involved in testing this as well. ❝ You will be doing that a hundred times again until it fails and you fall to your death. ❞