#and playing sul'dam with a forsaken

[moghedien]

i hope they have Elayne being totally unhinged and playing with one of the objects used to enslave and torture one of her best friends and also hundreds of other girls and she's just like "I think I can make one of these"

[dancing-with-the-madmen]

well fine - if you put it that way.

Labyrinth was baby's first on-line fandom. If running around a friend's backyard making up terrible self-insert mary sues counts as fandom? We're talking A Nightmare on Elm Street. (I was born in the 80s. Having a VERY irresponsible babysitter was just part of life)

It would be a Very Bad Thing for Freddy to get a hold of the power of Ed's nightmares.

Can Stede's "someone is hurting/scared; I am suddenly In Charge and Authoritative" hypercompetency save them all?

combine your first real fandom with your current one to create a terrible, terrible au

[butterflydm]

Kinda jumping off a discussion I was having with @markantonys and @sixth-light the other day, I am really feeling excited about potentially bringing in most/all of the rest of our endgame love interests next season because I think they'll pretty much all benefit with the jump from book to screen.

(contains some book spoilers through Knife of Dreams)

I really enjoy a lot of the choices that the show has made so far, and I think they've done a lot of good set-up for the romances as well. To start with the characters who are locked in already, I really loved that Rand's three love interests all got to spend some extended time with (at least) one of his friends in season 2. Elayne being close with Egwene and Nynaeve is book canon, of course, but I like that the show essentially did that with Aviendha & Min too -- Perrin and Aviendha were so funny together, Mat and Min were also funny but had some great depth and angst. We got to see all three of them shine as individual characters before we got into any romance elements.

Especially with Min, I really loved the choice for them to take Min's self-reported past struggles with her ability and make it a current thing for her. It gives Min an active emotional storyline that is about herself and not centered around Rand, which is a big plus for me.

For next season, it's fairly well confirmed that we're getting Faile, and I think the show is set up to do really well with her:

a. the fact that we're not getting Perrin's internal narration will do so much to combat the 'constantly possessive and jealous' vibe that she often has in the books, because she frequently does not act on it but is just feeling something and if Perrin didn't basically have telepathy, no one would know.

b. Perrin's previous marriage provides a good reason for his relationship with Faile to be much more of a slow burn than it was in the books, and also provide background on why he'll be over-protective of her without falling into Jordan's "Women Are Precious Frail Flowers" trap (which Jordan did realize was a flaw in his writing -- we see him trying to interrogate it over the course of the series. But sometimes he would fall into the trap anyway).

c. And Faile and Perrin's relationship being more of a slow-burn would also make Berelain be a less ridiculous character (if they choose to still have her & her pursuit of Perrin). I'm also fond of the (from reddit!) speculation that maybe Berelain will be Graendal in disguise, which would have the potential of working really well to bring Graendal in sooner and give Perrin a proper Forsaken nemesis.

We are likely to get Gawyn, and if he's our main PoV for split in the White Tower, rather than it being Min (who is going to be in the Tanchico storyline with Mat, if that leak from a couple of weeks ago is true), then the audience will be more inclined towards being sympathetic towards him. We're also not likely to have the huge slow-down in pacing that happened in the second half of the book series, so it won't feel like Gawyn is just marching in place for forever. He's definitely one of the characters who suffers the most from how slowly the plot moves in The Slog.

Less likely but still very possible (especially if the leak about Mat is true) is that we may meet Tuon next season, and the show has done so much to make Mat & Tuon more plausible as a romance, even before we get into anything like character development.

Partly in the difference in Mat's background, in his relationship with his parents, and also in the way his dynamics with characters like Liandrin and Ishamael were played out.

Plus the set-up for what the show is doing with damane & sul'dam is promising in terms of Tuon because the show has established that the sul'dam are very weak channelers (as opposed to being learners), which means that Tuon actively beginning to channel wouldn't be plot-breaking in terms of her capabilities and would just affect her on a narrative level, which makes that feel like a much more likely path for them to choose to go with her and which opens up some avenues for some genuine character growth from her, which would be an exciting change from the books.

And, on a more subjective note, I feel like Jordan really fell down on the writing of Mat and Tuon, especially in CoT & KoD, so basically anyone else taking them over is probably going to be an improvement for me.

The show also really established a strong personality for Mat off the bat, which is something that Jordan was pretty inconsistent about. 'Mat' doesn't really gel as an individual character until the third book when he gets a PoV; and then he changes in several ways between the end of Winter's Heart and the start of Crossroads of Twilight (which is only a week later); I think that 'Crossroads' Mat could have been plausible (if depressing) as a character if Jordan had actually worked up to him over the course of CoT & KoD rather than him abruptly becoming this New Slavery-Neutral "both sides are valid" Mat in-between books (in WH he has an actual ethical & visceral objection to slavery, while in CoT & KoD, he only seems to object to the idea of being personally enslaved and views it neutrally if other people are enslaved). But I've talked about all that before, lol, so I will just say that it feels like the show already knows who they want Mat to be and has taken a pretty bold stand on the subject (re: being a Hero of the Horn), so I don't think we'll see them dumping his brains and empathy overboard between seasons.

So, yeah, I know s3 is still filming, but I am already anticipating it so much!

[sixth-light]

TGH/TDR vs WoT season 2: what's in and what's out pt 2 (worldbuilding)

This time we're doing concepts and settings introduced in TGH/TDR (or introduced in EoTW but not in S1 of the show).

Introduced in EoTW but not S1 Caemlyn Andoran politics inc. Tigraine's disappearance

Tar Valon was substituted for Caemlyn in S1 but I believe it has been confirmed as a setting for S3. In terms of information viewers need to remember, Andoran politics only *really* start to matter when we kick off the Succession plotline & I expect will be scattered throughout future seasons until we get to the main event in S5-6 or so. If Slayer is in S3 (I think this has also been suggested) then we could start to get some infodumps about the whole Tigraine & Luc disappearance drama there. (Side-note: I think show-only people are going to find it hilarious if Rand has an uncle Luke (Luc).)

Introduced in TGH Cairhien Daes Dae'mar Illuminators The Choedan Kal (not named) Ogier politics and culture The search for the Car'a'carn Seanchan/the Hailene The secret of the a'dam/sul'dam The Black Ajah The Accepted test

Still missing from the show but first introduced in TGH: Ogier politics and culture(differences between steddings), the existence and location of the Choedan Kal, and the Illuminators. The Ogier stuff may or may not EVER be relevant. The Choedan Kal can & should be introduced to up the stakes from Callandor when it proves too dangerous, although may get easter egg mentions prior, quite possibly as a Lanfear back-up plan. The Illuminators - again only necessary when gunpowder and its potential for weapons start to become relevant. They could be introduced in Tanchico if the plot goes there or as refugees from the Seanchan. (NB: I think show-only people are also going to be REALLY sideswiped by that whole plot, gunpowder weapons are so rare in the popular perception of epic fantasy. It's going to make WoT really stand out.) Another note: in the show the fact that the a'dam can be used on sul'dam remains a secret from the Seanchan and was not presented as an empire-shattering discovery, and the lore has changed so sul'dam are just very weak in the Power. I think there's a chance that in the show it becomes something known but suppressed in Seanchan rather than a genuine/complete rediscovery. Given how long channelers live that would check out; the books never make anything of it but Alivia is old enough that when she was born there were still a few free channelers in Seanchan. The 'Consolidation' was not a short victorious war but a multi-century period.

Introduced in TDR Tear (the city/Stone), Illian, and Ghealdan Darkhounds Wolfbrothers losing themselves Wolves and the Dream/prophetic wolf dreams Wide-scale ta'veren effects Tel'aran'rhiod Forsaken controlling nations (including specifically Illian, Tear, and Andor) Grey Men Callandor/the fall of the Stone Mat's luck Set-up for the Tower Coup Egwene as a Dreamer/Egwene's prophetic Dreams Balefire Fireworks as weapons

As with characters, there's a lot of worldbuilding from TDR that hasn't come into play yet! I think this is mostly for pacing reasons. On the other hand, we actually got a lot of Tel'aran'rhiod in S2 which aligns with TDR, a book where characters spend about half their time having prophetic dreams (or so it feels like).

Mat's luck and Egwene's Dreaming abilities - these are solid/obvious S3 arcs for these characters that they didn't have time for in S2. No question we'll see them next season, I think, although Mat's luck might have more of a slow-burn introduction than just suddenly working.

The Forsaken - have only just all been released! We'll certainly see them taking over nations in the next season or two.

Darkhounds, Wolfbrother lore, Callandor, fireworks as weapons - I think this has all been held back for pacing. Famously Perrin's plot needs to be spread out to give him stuff to do in later seasons. He might not get prophetic dreams though since it's a bit of a repeat of Egwene's Dreaming and never goes anywhere much.

Similarly, it's a Big Deal when Rand gets Callandor and then it...stays where it is for five books, that's not good TV pacing. I suspect he will pick it up just in time to try using it and fail against the Seanchan. And we don't need to think about fireworks as weapons until Mat is in a place to take advantage of the possibilities.

Balefire, widespread ta'veren effects, Grey Men - these are all things which pose the question 'why aren't they being used all the time' once they're introduced, and the latter two will be quite hard to effectively and efficiently do in a visual medium. We'll get balefire eventually but at a much higher power level for our characters, and the other two we might never get at all.

Tear and Illian - genuinely no idea when we'll get to these cities! Illian we may never visit as not a lot happens there that has to happen *there*. We'll go to Tear (the city proper) at SOME point but...depends on a lot of things exactly when.

[glow-wine]

Moar The Wheel of Time 2x8

Book spoilers because my mind is looking toward the future.

OK, first of all, I was kind of rooting for Ishamael to stick around a little more, simply because he's a great character in the show and played by a great actor. He needs to make room for the other Forsaken to shine, and for Moridin to happen - eventually. Nevertheless, I felt a little sorry for him throughout this episode. Truly defeated by the power of friendship, and because he has no real friends who won't betray him. Silly, silly Forsaken.

As an Ingtar fan of 20 years, I am a little disappointed that he did not get his reveal and moment to shine. But the episode had so many moving parts that I'm not surprised that not everything happened the way I'd have wished. There is simply no way you can give a Hero Moment to every character in one episode. It's a logistic nightmare.

Rest in peace, Ingtar.

And bye-bye Renna. I cannot be upset that Eggy killed her. There was none of her friends around to hold her back. Although I would have found it satisfying if she had been left collared, too. Not sure which would have been more cruel, though? I am really curious how the show is going to let the damane problem play out, because I think the books did not really deliver on the "sul'dam are channelers, too, the whole system would collapse if this became known!!" twist. I feel it should have been the wrench to break the Seanchan worldview apart, but little happened with it. So ... at this point, it's not really a narrative loss that neither Renna nor Seta were discovered wearing the a'dam. The books did nothing with that either. I hope the show makes it matter.

I am sure it pissed off the swordfighting fans that Rand did not duel Turak but just ... killed him and his guards with the One Power. But it would have been kind of silly for Rand to stop and pretend that he isn't a walking nuke. This is a bunch of guys with swords and spears trying to block the Dragon Reborn's path! He really handled them the same way that Lanfear would have handled them: just kill them in one swoop and carry on unbothered.

My babies (Rand and Eggy) killing people. ;_;

Oh, but Perrin, too. That was rough, man. He is going to feel like shit about this later, I imagine. And it is giving Dain so much more foundation for his grudge against Perrin, especially because they kind of had the beginning of a frenemy bromance going on. Just ... poor Dain! RIP daddy Bornhald, the last sensible Whitecloak.

Rand seeing Elayne for the first time. :)

Masema seeing Rand for the first time. :D

But I love Lanfear's "oh shit" face when she finds the broken seals. That's a great entrance for Moghedien. I hope all of the Forsaken get to be as memorable and fun as these three. If we follow the books decently, then Asmodean and Rahvin should be active during the next season, alongside Lanfear and Moggy.

OK, but I hope that Season 3 picks up a few weeks later and everyone is still in Falme, relaxing, catching up, flirting, bathing and getting a new wardrobe (looking at you, Mat) ... Masema setting up the Unofficial Rand al'Thor fanclub ...

[asha-mage]

Okay, but I think it's worth remembering that Rand IS as outraged as everyone presumes he would be, and spends a whole book falling into the exact trap Nynaeve describes above: mistaking killing and violence for justice. Rand spends all of Path of Daggers waging war against the Seanchan, attempting to beat them into either surrender and submission or utter retreat, and it does not work.

Counter invading the Seanchan is a useless exercise for a lot of reasons, but maybe the largest one that Rand later realizes in CoT is that hitting back at the Seanchan with violence dosen't undermind their system, it reinforces it. The Seanchan Empire is a giant war machine, built on the idea of 'expand, subjugate, consolidate, repeat'. Rand's war against them in Path of Daggers plays into that, helping the Empire justify it's imperialistic policies and to unify them behind a concrete plan of action ('go to war with the Dragon'), while also helping justify their use of the damane system, both to oppose Rand and more dangerously in it's underlying principle (those born with the One Power are inherently untrustworthy and will wreck chaos and destruction left unchecked).

Rand might eventually win an all out war against the Seanchan or he might not (another point of Path of Daggers is that being morally in the right isn't enough, and doesn't magically assure victory) but in the mean time those that suffer the most among the Seanchan will be the ones least culpable: everyday rank and file whose worst crime is believing in the society they where raised in. Not to mention all the conscripts from recently conquered Altara and Tarabon, who aren't even guilty of that. All the while Rand depletes his own forces and spends the lives of his own followers all without making any real tangible gain against the actual enemy their supposed to be fighting: The Shadow.

And if he does win, what then? If Rand had succeeded in destroying the Seanchan in the Path of Daggers (or worse gone through with his plan to decapitate the Empire's entire government with the Choden Kal in The Gathering Storm) what would he have actually accomplished? Plunging half the continent into chaos as bad as anything the Forsaken did (in the second case literally the exact same thing that Semirhage did in Knife of Dreams!), creating ANOTHER massive refugee crisis, another power vacuum destined to end in civil war and ruination, another swath of innocent common folk sure to watch their homes and lives destroyed in the absence of any way to maintain them. Rand certainly isn't in a position to step in and take over- he's barely managing to hold his own territory together as it is.

None of that is true justice, and Rand realizing that it isn't- that it's just revenge and killing and destruction is a big part of him avoiding falling to the Shadow. In fact the only person who comes up with a good concrete plan to take down the Seanchan empire that also approaches being just is Elayne. Elayne takes the prisoner of war sul'dam Rand sent her (which Rand did because he didn't have a plan beyond 'kill Seanchan until they stop being a problem' and failed to realize that would include women, who Rand was still vehemently against killing at that point in the series) and forces them to confront that they can channel, then sends every woman that wants to go back to Empire. Everyone is horrified by this: Elayne consigning women to life as damane, even women who themselves where once leash holders. But as Elayne points out if anyone deserves it they do, and if enough of them go back the Seanchan will not be able to keep their secret any longer, forcing a cultural reckoning that actually might do some good to change the underlying systems, and destabilize the Empire in a way that could prompt, if not its dissolution, at least an end to it's expansion. It's frustrating and slow going and it may not pay off in the timescale that we the reader hope it will, and it certainly isn't a grand glorious battle that would make for a good legend, but The Wheel of Time for the most part dismisses simple solutions to complex problems, and that is it's credit, not it's cost.

“She hurt me, Nynaeve. She hurt me. They all did. They hurt me, and hurt me, until I did what they wanted. I hate them. I hate them for hurting me, and I hate them because I couldn’t stop them from making me do what they wanted.” “I know,” Nynaeve said gently. She smoothed Egwene’s hair. “It is all right to hate them, Egwene. It is. They deserve it. But it isn’t all right to let them make you like they are.” Seta's hands where pressed to her face. Renna touched the collar at her throat disbelievingly, with a shaking hand. Egwene straightened, brushing her tears away quickly. "I'm not. I am not like them." She clawed the bracelet of her wrist and threw it down. "I'm not. But I wish I could kill them." "They deserve it." Min was staring grimly at the two sul'dam. "Rand would kill someone who did a thing like that." Elayne said. She seemed to be steeling herself. "I am sure he would." "Perhaps they do." Nynaeve said, "and perhaps he would. But men often mistake revenge and killing for justice. They seldom have the stomach for true justice." She had often sat in judgement with the Women's Circle. Sometimes men came before them, thinking women might give them a better hearing than the men of the Village Council, but men always thought they could sway the decision with eloquence, or pleas for mercy. The Women's Circle gave mercy where it was deserved, but justice always, and it was the Wisdom who pronounced it. She picked up the bracelet Egwene had discarded and closed it. "I would free every woman here if I could, and destroy every last one of these. But since I cannot..." She slipped the bracelet over the same beg that held the other one, then addressed herself to the sul'dam. Not leash holders any longer, she told herself. "Perhaps if you are very quiet, you will be left alone here long enough to manage to remove the collars. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and it may be that you've done enough good to counterbalance the evil yo have done, enough that you will be allowed to remove them. If not, you will be found, eventually. And I think whoever finds you will ask a great man questions before they remove those collars. I think perhaps you will earn first hand the life you have given to other women. That is justice." She added to the others. Renna wore a fixed stare of horror. Seta's shoulders shook as she sobbed into her hands. Nynaeve hardened her heart- is it justice, she told herself, it is- and herded the others out of the room.

This probably my favorite moment in The Great Hunt, maybe my favorite Nynaeve moment overall, which is saying something since she has a truly impressive number of amazing moments. It's easy to forget sometimes that as a Wisdom Nynaeve wasn't just a healer and guide to her people, but also a judge, an arbiter, a leader. This is a woman who has to sit in judgement, to weigh the lives of men and women, to give justice and know that when she spoke it, it would be as law. The stakes might not be has a high as they are for say, Morgase, yet that doesn't mean her choices matter less, especially to those she presided over.

And her insight here: about how men often mistake killing and revenge for justice, and instead lack the stomach for real justice, rings both true to real life, and true to Nynaeve's character. What she does this in this moment, leaving Renna and Seta at the mercy of their fellow sul'dam, and their own twisted culture, facing the very real possibility that they might be chained, might suffer, in the way they have chained other women, made other women suffer, is a lot more harsh then simply killing the women, especially in light of what we as readers and Nynaeve as a character know from first hand knowledge of Egwene's experience as damane. Killing them would likely be more merciful given the bleak existence they are now faced with.

Maybe worst of all, she gives them an unlikely sliver of hope. Maybe fate will allow them to go free, maybe the Wheel will have mercy on them, as unlikely as that seems.

And maybe more interestingly the Wheel does give them mercy, but not because they deserve it, but rather to offer them a chance to attone for their deeds many books later. They both live, but suffer in the mean time, prisoners of Suroth, having lost all their status and power within the sul'dam. And when Mat has need of aid to save three Aes Sedai from captivity in Ebu Dar, Renna and Seta get the chance to aid in the escpae and perform some small measure of atonement for what they did to Egwene. (And when Renna rejects that chance at redemption and tries to flee back to the Empire, to her old life, she dies for it, killed before she can ever sight the Seanchan army again).

Anyways Nynaeve great, and Jordan's themes of what justice means, what balance means, are still awesome.