#and like this technically isn’t even byler related

[chirpsythismorning]

Jason saying to Lucas your first hangover feels like your being split in two actually foreshadowed his death in The Piggyback!

Reddit: WOAH GOOD CATCH! I LOVE THE SMALL DETAILS

El saying, ‘I’m so excited to see you, it’s hard to breathe, are you excited too?’ followed by silence, actually foreshadowed El being choked & unable to respond to Mike’s monologue in The Piggyback—

Reddit:

[id-rather-be-home]

Byler omegaverse thoughts: the one a/b/o byler fic I absolutely loved was dirty rain, I think it’s been deleted now but I wish I had downloaded it/ it get reuploaded or at least knew why it got deleted since it did have almost 40 chapters. Everything about it was sooo good and I feel like people NEED to know abt it if they don’t already so here is why I love this fic: Mike walking around in the middle of the night the same night Will came back to Hawkins because of Wills scent, the slight age gap between the two, protective Mike when Will started school again, Mike courting Will and scenting everything he gives him, their desire for each other being so strong even before Wills first heat that they end up grinding against each other multiple times because Mike refuses to hurt Will since his body isn’t fully ready yet, when Wills first heat does happen he chooses to stay at Mikes house instead of his own because the scent of Mike calms him, during their first time (I think) Mike lets Will bite his neck even though it’s seen as a bad thing in society for alphas to have claim marks, Mike also claiming Will by biting him but being so careful because he knows Will has trauma related to his neck and also biting all his other scent glands if I remember correctly, and finally Mike making sure Will eats and stays hydrated in between the times when Wills heat isn’t spiked high I could honestly go on forever talking about this fic bc I love it so much and I never see anyone mention it which is 😢

side note: I recently saw the anatomy chart of a male omega and the science/anatomy college side of my brain has so many questions relating to the technical side of things bc I love combining what I’m learning with fantasy to help me understand concepts better but this is already so long and I think the answers to them will differ between different authors so I’ll save you of them

i’ve never heard of that fic and if it has been deleted that is actually a whole tragedy! i believe that i have read every a/b/o byler fic that is there (at least on ao3) and i haven’t ever come across dirty rain. and after just googling it, i’m pretty sure it’s been deleted since all that came up was “deleted byler fic” so 😔

it sounds like it has so many aspects that i love too! i’m a sucker for mating fics where they claim one another and bond - it’s usually so sweet! and it’s even better when there’s a taboo thrown in with an omega claiming an alpha but their alpha wants their mark regardless

i guarantee that it would be talked about a hell of a lot more if it was still available! hopefully the author may decide to post it again one day

also! the anatomy of alphas and omegas is such an interest of mine as well! especially male omegas and female alphas, particularly because it goes against the binary biology that we have in real life so there’s so much that can be explored. if you ever want to talk my ear off about a/b/o biology PLEASE feel free i would love it!

[kaypeace21]

DID theory part 3: St novels/comics/spotify list analyses

*read part 2  of DID theory-first! You’ll be lost otherwise, seriously XD. First, I’ll say -I find the ST comics/ books as canon as the st movie inspirations . I don’t consider the books/comics ‘literal canon’ (cause they contradict the show ( like Max and billy meeting a year before s2  in runaway max - but meeting as little kids in s3,  or El’s age being wrong in suspicious minds, in the d&D comic Will’s friends instead of him /Jonathan building castle byers, etc) . 

So I think we shouldn’t take it  literally - but more like the st movie lists - filled with foreshadowing/symbolism and other eastereggs (That the Duffers may have told them to add). So here’s some more (possible) alter / DID hints...

‘Suspicious minds’ novel

- Brenner  equates k*lling rabbits to h*rting kids. And he’ll hurt (kid) Kali (the bunny in the analogy) if Terry tries running away from him . I wonder if Lonnie used a similar threat against jonathan? Jon could be giving only a partial truth to why he cried for a week (about the bunny story)?

-Kali “hops” like a bunny then talks about tigers obsessively (linking her to rabbits/tigers similar to the other alters/Will/Lonnie). Terry also imagines tigers and kali says to Alice they can all be tigers together.

- one of the only male psychic experiments (who can see the future) is gay

- Terry is into lord of the rings, like Will. Has her and her boyfriend dress as sam & frodo (m/m ship). Terry calls her and her friends “the fellowship”.

-when Terry/Alice were injected with d**gs -they hallucinated rainbows.yikes.

- Alice (like Lonnie) is a car mechanic. She can see the future like Will the wise and says “monsters of course my mind has them as long as they stayed in there, everything would be alright? Wouldn’t it?” (in her visions she saw the demogorgan).

 (completed) graphic ST novels (by Jody Hozer) so far  (+ other st comics).

*Jody Hozer writes all the graphic novels (every novel is 4 chapters each) - the will byers comic, number 6 comic , into the fire comic, and at the moment she’s writing the d&d series and the summer camp series (which isn’t done yet). Then there’s the occasional 1 chapter st comics not written by her.

- Number 6 has (the ability to foresee the future like Will the wise/Alice) and has an ab*sive dad. 

When having a nightmare of the demogorgan ...she says as she wakes up “screw you dad” (another hint the demogrgan -aka in d&d means ‘deep father’ ...is Lonnie).

- when number 6 and others run they say they’re’ “rabbiting”(which yes technically makes sense but I found such an uncommon phrase odd.)

- The (summer camp and d&d graphic novels aren’t completed yet) but they establish d&d creatures are based off  real life people the boys don’t like in real life. Or that d&d is used as an outlet to explain true events from their pasts -but they just give the true stories a d&d fantasy slant.

- Which brings me to the halloween oneshot(not by Hozer),taking place before s1. Will tells a scary story told to him by Jonathan, and originally told to him by Lonnie. Says the boys have to keep it a secret cause it was something he was never supposed to tell to anyone. Mike says he has to finish the story he started. It’s about a “ch*lld-eater” monster first attacking a boy near the quarry (like where Will was found) and  attacking kids in a library (where Will was also found in s1).When the child sees the sheriff she bangs on the library door begging for help-he ignores her , walks away, and tells the other cops to never speak of what they saw as she screams for help. Because the previous sheriff was in kahoots with the monster. It def had some ... uh questionable imagery too 0_0

The vine in the mouth is also like the one in Will’s mouth (when Joyce found him in the library).And of course Dustin asks whether or not something like that could be covered up.

- In the “bully  comic” (about troy) also not by Jody. We focus on Troy and his ab*sive dad (who encourages him to fight/ditch his best friend). The dad has a drinking problem (gets fired), calls Troy a “mess” , pushes him, and constantly encourages Troy to be vi*lent/macho. He pretty much tries sabotaging the relationship Troy has with his friend (which I could see Lonnie doing in the future with byler).The dad/troy is framed similarly to when Billy gives Max a ride home-  after both ab*sers give bad advice saying not to hang out with their friend (after witnessing them fight in the school parking lot). Dad also laughs about almost k*lling a squirrel (a trait we see troy mimic)- and we see El feel guilty about k*lling a squirrel in s2. At the end of the comic- Troy (like Will) after making up with his bff james- moves leaving his best friend behind.

-  (into the fire) Twins: (one was normal with no powers living in the real world and the twin with fire powers is trapped in a dark sunless “cold” world styled like a psych facility/medieval fantasy) . pics in link.She hated her reflection cause it reminded her of being betrayed by her normal non powered twin who left her behind in the ‘cold’ place. She’d call herself a ‘hunter’ who would defend herself and attack others to never be hurt again. Her powers being unleashed were described like opening “a door.” And she loves her twin deep down and just wants friends . And fire twin goes to the “other side” to reunite with her reflection and find happiness in the real world. *also there’s sunflower/bunny symbols which she lights on fire-which can relate back to Will/Terry/Lonnie etc. The twins = Will & Will the wise (mf)

Mirrors also connect to Will and Will the wise via the canon spotify playlists too.

Will playlist (song: mirror in the bathroom)-Mirror in the bathroom Please talk free.The door is locked -Just you and me.Mirror in the bathroom recompense for all my crimes of self defense.Cures you whisper make no sense!Drift gently into Mental illness.

Demogorgan playlist ( from perspective of Will the wise aka the mf) (song: are you dead yet? )-”polluted soul through a mirror I behold.Throw a punch, shards bleed on the floor. tearing me apart. but I don't care anymore.Should I regret or ask myself are you dead yet?Wake up, don't cry. Regenerate to deny the truth. The fiction you live in blindfolds your eyes. Disclosure, self loathing, this time you've gone too far.Or could it be, my nemesis, that you are me?

(*st ‘into the fire’ comic. the fire powered twin’s thoughts echo the song)

*I think this foreshadows the later plot points of mf (will the wise ) and Will interacting via mirrors. The fire-wielding twin and the non powered twin had a lot of mirror imagery. Including the fire powered twin (Who denies reality/and imagines herself in a fantasy world) punching her reflection because it reminds her of her non-powered twin. Here’s some cover art from the novels showing how much they emphasize mirrors.

*And in s4 movies Black swan - “the black and white swan twins (two halves of the same person-Nina)” had creepy mirror imagery. In long kiss goodnight the women with DID talks to her “ (supposed)dark 1/2″  via a mirror (in a dream).  in ‘the visit’ the teen girl who’s dad abandoned her when young-  refuses to look in the mirror (and it’s never explained why she hates her reflection). So yes I think we’ll see this in s4 or 5. We already see the mf take on the appearance of Billy when talking to him.

- Will in “zombie boy” comic is afraid he’s a monster.

also lets appreciate the lil byler moment of Mike and Will being the only zombies and mike comforting him. honestly , though, the characters were pretty out of character for most of this 1 ch comic (until the end) tbh.

- in the “d&d comic” mf is  (possibly) described as a “protector” (aka like how i said the mf is probably a perpetrator alter- which are misguided protectors).

*update now that it’s finished... hinting Will created everything subconsciously.

‘Runaway Max’ novel (before s3)

(I didn’t get time to read this book unlike ‘suspicious minds’ -so can’t show screen shots of everything others talked about. May read it eventually)

-Max compares Billy  to ‘her monster’ and a ‘shadow’ that will attack anyone that comes close (mf parallel).

- Dart k*lled a cat,  El’s papa tried to force her to k*ll a cat. And Billy when seeing a d*ad cat lights it on fire for a “viking funeral”. A connection to WW (who has fire powers) and El & dart.

-Max and Billy both are into cars and bond over fixing them (similar to Lonnie’s interest in fixing up cars). And since Lonnie tried to brag to Jonathan about fixing a car up and Will is into tech it wouldn’t be a stretch that Lonnie and Will were into fixing cars together (like Max/billy who would hang out at a autoshop in Cali) .  Similar to Will ,max says hanging with Billy wasn’t always so bad- which made things more confusing to her.

- Max compares Billy being beat up by Neil: to ‘punching a pocket of a baseball glove’. This is interesting since this book was pre-s3 which was when they established the connection of billy and his dad to baseball (similar to s1 saying  Lonnie taught Will baseball).

-Billy’s friend is a nice ‘music snob’ . He tries distracting Max with music while Billy is burning the cat. Which reminds me of Jonathan trying to distract Will from their parents fighting in the next room-with music

- Max’s bio dad is a criminal who takes her to shady bars, and Max fears he’d ‘get bored of her’. Max also ran away from her mom to her dad’s 2x.Which reminds me of Jonathan thinking Will ran to Lonnie’s in s1.

-Max mentions how Billy misses his friends after moving out of Cali. And he starts acting even worse-after the move. Which will probably be the case for Will (at least a bit) when moving to California.

-Billy tells Max Neil isn’t his ‘real dad’ either because Neil can’t be a father to anyone.

-Billy also tells Max who (at the time ) is 12 years old not to act “easy” and breaks her best friend’s (Nate’s) arm over  someone joking he was Max’s boyfriend and also cause Nate tried to get in between Billy bullying Max. Eventually all her Cali friends ditch her cause they’re afraid of Billy.And Ugh- why could I see Lonnie doing something like this in the future with Will/his new friends. 

- Creepily Max says Billy doesn’t fool around with her like other girls not because of her age or being family. But cause she wasn’t ‘attractive’. This whole excerpt gave me the heeby jeebies,on so many levels, honestly.  Almost like he’s jealous- and controlling her cause he doesn’t want Max to have any love interests. Maybe i’m just missing the context? But ugh... excerpt:

Will byers secret Files

-Hopper gets scared by a pumpkin-scarecrow. And in Will’s canon journal when talking about the mindflayer and his nightmares draws the same scare-crow , Hopper saw. There’s also a lot of s4-5 foreshadowing in the book... but that’s a post for another day.

Darkness on the edge of town (Hopper novel)

*didn’t get time to read this (except the preview)

 I think it’s more foreshadowing for future seasons though- cult/supposed ritual k*llings, people being wrongly blamed for those crimes-like the hellfire club , most likely.  (similar to the guy number 3 in the number 6 comic)  saint john in the novel also has the same brain control powers as 3- similar to the mf. .” When a blackout plunges the boroughs into chaos, Hopper must escape the the mobs in the streets to make sure his family is safe and stop Saint John from fulfilling his prophecy.” I already talked about here- how the next few seasons would start having more religious symbolism/a future apocalypse (based on what we’ve seen in the show/s4 movies). Although, i think there’s quite a few differences between (the novel’s) saint john and Will the wise. Hopper is also a star wars nerd like the boys (alter hint)

Canon spotify songs (posted after s2/before s3) hinting at DID/ alter /lonnie stuff-

Will  and Will the wise (aka the mf) being an alter

*Used Will and the demogorgan playlist (which i think has perspectives of Will the wise aka the mf, demogorgan, and Lonnie).

Besides the mirror songs previously mentioned...

Will (cold inside)-Doctor the problem's in my chest.My heart feels cold as ice but it's anybody's guess?Doctor can you help me cause I don't feel right?Better make it fast before I change my mind. Doctor can you help me cause I don't feel right?Better make it fast before I change my mindWell it's cold, cold, cold, cold inside. Darker in the day than the dead of night Cold, cold, cold, cold inside...Counselor give me some advice Tell me how hard will I fall if I live a double life?

El (ghost)-your ghost, the ghost of you.It keeps me awake.My friends had you figured out.Yeah they saw what's inside of you. You tried hiding another you.But your evil was coming through... living in the shade Your cold heart makes my spirit shake.

El (monster Lead me home)-I don't know what, what I was afraid of, I was afraid oooof...Monster take me somewhere...We walk in shadow.Monster lead me home.Where there is no place to hide.Stranger on the other side We walk in shadow.Monster lead me home.

 The’ innerworld’/  other hints Max, El, Hopper, and Billy are alters of Will’s

Max (Logical song)-I know it sounds absurd. Please tell me who I am, who I am, who I am, who I am?

EL(Buzzcut season)-I remember when your head caught flame It kissed your scalp and caressed your brain ...nothing's wrong when nothing's true. I live in a hologram with you Where all the things that we do for fun . Play along (make-believe it's hyper real) But I live in a hologram with you.

Billy (broken bones)-Broken bones.Stay alone. If I see only what I believe -reality's bound by what I conceive

Max (Why can’t i touch it)-Well, it seems so real.I can see it.And it seems so real-I can feel it.And it seems so real-I can taste it.And it seems so real-I can hear it.So why can't I touch it?

Hopper (breakers)-Just to keep me from losing my mind .It's so easy to drown in the dream.Oh, and everything is not what it seems This life is but a dream.Shatter illusions that hold your spirit down ...From the inside, so it seems.Oh, I'm telling you it's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a dream It's all a It's all a dream.”

Max (comfortably numb)-When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye.I turned to look but it was gone.I cannot put my finger on it now.The child is grown.The dream is gone.I have become comfortably numb.

Max (Kids aren’t alright)-Still it's hard Hard to see Fragile lives, shattered dreams...What the hell is going on? The cruelest dream, reality.

El(team)-Livin' in ruins of a palace within my dreams. And you know we're on each other's team

Hopper (denial twist) ( just change ‘she’ to ‘he’)-Just because she makes you feel wrong she don't mean to be mean or hurt you on purpose, boy!Take a tip and do yourself a little service...by playing a different role Ya, by playing a different role, oh.The boat ya you know she's rockin' it.And the truth well ya know there's no stoppin' it.So what, somebody left you in a rut and wants to be the one who's in control.But the feeling that you're under can really make you wonder.How the hell she can be so cold?So now you're mad, denying the truth.And it's getting in the wisdom in the back of your tooth

El (the story)-You see the smile that's on my mouth.It's hiding the words that don't come out.And all of my friends who think that I'm blessed.They don't know my head is a mess.No they don't know who I really am.And they don't know what I've been through

El (hero) ( pretty much alludes to El being a construct of Will’s mind similar to his juju zombies in the d&d story he wrote )-Who knows what you'll find when you look inside (billy’s mind)?Haunted beach (billy flashback), roll the dice.The zombies in the corner aren't amused (d&d ref).Play the part of the blushing bride...Out of view, cloaked by night...My spirit dims, but I feel the force"No longer in my hands,"  (loses powers) .I say to you .I could've been a hero, I could've been a zero.Could've been all these thingsI could've been nothing, I could've had something.Could've been all these things.And if I am unable, tell him that I'll try but underneath the table will spin the wheel and hope for gold. Oh, and where it stops, nobody knows.

Max (it’s real)-I don't know who's behind the wheel.Sometimes I feel like I don't know The deal.But when I tell you how I feel-Believe me when I say It's real.I skated on a frozen Sea.It's real as far as I Can see?

Max (Halloween)-Because your role is planned for you there's nothing you can do.

El (White rabbit... alice and wonderland/lonnie ref)-And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you're going to fall...When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

demogrogan(Dimensions of horror)-Gaze upon the ancient face you dread (lonnie)... Passing through the doors, into Dimensions Of Horror. Haunting visions from the past, rise once more.Realms of darkness, terror, death and gore.Scream in fear, your sanity is lost

demogorgan (SCHORCHED)-Terrorizing madness. Vivid dreams. internal. Hallucinating the unknown. Abstract entities prey.Through superhuman abilities.Fragments of memory erased.

demogrogan (Calling from a dream)-the shadow king...seven spirits (7 ref) Swarming around his head.Close your eyes.Listen to my call. Our bond will bring us together again.I will wait for you. For our hearts still beat as one.Listen to my calling from a dream. (integration?)

 Maybe a coincidence or a hint at Will having both male &female alters?Billy (dude looks like a lady)- What a funky lady...Oh, he was a lady.Dude looks like a lady. Hopper (turn the page)-All the same old cliches,"Is that a woman or a man?" Max ( rebel rebel) (this was on her her pre s3 spotify list + post s3 “wrapped list”)- you got your mother in a whirl, doesn’t know if you’re a boy or girl? 

 SHIT DAD/ AB*SIVE FAMILY

*trigger w*rning ahead for dark themes like s**ual ab*se

demogorgan (my children)My children I never loved them.Why feel that way when their existence is my business?My children...feral vessals of my selfinterest...So don't lean on me man 'Cause I ain't got nothing to give.Don't lean on me man 'Cause I ain't got nothing to give.My children they're right behind you My children they're gonna beat you.My children if you let them Oh, oh, my children.

demogorgan (black dahlia-window):  I’m not quoting the lyrics you can just look it up.  it’s messed up.Based on the 1st person pov of Gilles de Rais -k**ler and p*d*rest who also kidnapped a cleric.

Will (creature comfort)-Some boys hate themselves.Spend their lives resenting their fathers... hate their bodies .Stand in the mirror (another mirror ref) and wait for the feedback.Some boys get too much, too much love, too much touch.

Jonathan’s Playlist- We’re happy family: “Eating refried beans (poverty). Gulpin’ down Thorazines (pills for a mood disorder). We ain’t got no friends (s2 ref). Our troubles never end. Daddy likes men. Daddy’s telling LIES.”

Jonathan’s playlist-Enter sandman: “Don’t forget my son. Sleep with one eye open. Gripping your pillow tight, Exit light, Enter night. Take my hand, we’re off to never-never land. Something’s wrong, shut the light, heavy thoughts tonight. Dreams of LIARS and of things that will bite, yeah. Hush little baby don’t say a word, and never mind that noise you heard. It’s just the beasts under your bed, in your closet in your head.”

Jonathan (The killing moon-guy sings this)-So soon you'll take me up in your arms. Too late to beg you or cancel it. Against your will!He will wait until you give yourself to him...In starlit nights I saw you.So cruelly you kissed me... unwillingly mine.

jonathan (haunted)-You and I both know that the house is haunted And you and I both know that the ghost is me. You used to catch me in your bed-sheets just a-rattling your chains.Well back then , it didn't seem so strange...In the midnight hour..I was busy trying to charm that snake. When the sun came up we had no place to hide...You and I both know that the house is haunted  yeah you and I both know that the ghost is YOU! You used to walk around screaming, all slamming all 'dem doors Well I'm all grown up now and I don't scare easy no more But you and I both know.

Hopper (Confession)-Now I'm on the low Confession, to a virgin ghost Admission, force you know.

hopper (Tomorrow ) Yeah, and back when s*x and amph*tamines were the staples of our childhood physique.

Max (Last caress)-I got something to say.I k**led your baby today.And it doesn't matter much to me.As long as it's de*d.Well I got something to say.I r*ped your mother today.And it doesn't matter much to me.As long as she spread. (Lonnie pov? Neil?messed up song to be on Max’s list)

hopper House of the rising sun- And my father was a gamblin' man Way down in New Orleans... And the only time he's satisfied Is when he's on a drunk

Max Poor relations-An attitude, no patience, he's paper thin.Talking over everything you have to say...Don't correct the things he said, what's the use?Can't handle violence.Can't handle violence.Learning to love the abuse you can't live without.Your familiar oppression, your daily injustice...That loser man that belongs to you, he's ruling you.

el (sweet dreams are made of this)- Some of them want to use you ...Some of them want to ab*se you.Sweet dreams are made of this...Hold your head up.Keep your head up, movin' on.

Max (Alternative ulster)-They say they're a part of you.And that's not true, you know.They say they've got control of you.And that's a lie, you know.They say you will never Be free, free, free

max In bloom-”Sometimes at night I let it get to me.And last night it had me down and feeling NUMB...And thinking back upon those days Way way back when I was young.I was such a little shit.Cos I was always on the run.Well you know just what they say-Just like father then like son.Don't delude me with your sympathy.Cos I can do this on my own.And this will be the last time-That I break down and wanna crawl to bed. “(since Billy has a playlist I found this song choice being on hers instead of his interesting- in fact almost all of Max’s songs are from the 1st person perspective of a boy unlike the other gals.)

Max (comfortably numb)-The child is grown.The dream is gone.I have become comfortably NUMB.

hopper (numb)-Honey, here I go again Down that crooked road of sin.My momma locked me out again And hung me high to rust under the rain I am NUMB( 8x)....Little bluebird at my window Sing a pretty song for me Don't you know that you can fly, fly, fly away Don't you know that you can leave I am numb.

other psych songs

Hopper (life of sin)-Every morning when I rise I look in the mirror (another mirror ref) and despise the sight of everything and all that I've become. The level of my medicating some might find intimidating But that's alright cause' it don't bother me none.

 Max (Moon over marin)- “Dive in my scalding wooden tub (connects to mf/el)...There, wasn't that a nice visit?Don't forget, a psychiatrist is on duty twenty-four hours a day in the blue room...Drink plenty of water when you take these.Now you can relax.” ( I wonder if stranger writers saying to “drink plenty of water” is secretly a line said by a psych person in s4?)

Max (Feeling ok)-My doctor says that I should take it -At least I won't have to keep faking.I know, someday I'll find it-Where I, I least expect it.Today I know I feel ok.

Max ( Going gets tough)-.No home since the fire.Me and the ash can't settle down...So I sink another round-Placebo for pain.And there's no one for to blame . I refuse to accept-That my work is all in vain...Still always remembering .When the going gets tough .That the labor of our love-Will reward us soon enough.

 Max (Comfortably numb)-Hello? (Hello? Hello? Hello?)Is there anybody in there?Just nod if you can hear me.Is there anyone home?Come on now-I hear you're feeling down.Well I can ease your pain .Get you on your feet again.Relax // Now I've got that feeling once again.I can't explain . you would not understand.This is not how I am. I have become comfortably numb.I have become comfortably numb //Okay (okay, okay, okay)Just a little pinprick.There'll be no more, ah .But you may feel a little sick.Can you stand up?I do believe it's working, good.That'll keep you going through the show.Come on it's time to go// Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying.

Explanations of Why the mf  (WIll the wise)behaves the way he does

demogorgan (ww) (Cowards starved)- friends think of me as a priest.I had to show them that the weakest hands Can still make impressive fires. (aka MF = will the wise)

demogorgan (ww) (Unmerciful):I will be reborn...Tranquil demeanor.Now devoured.Surfacing malice...I can't reconcile the torment others bring unto me.I will not take any reproach.Turning the other cheek.Relentless hatred consumes.Control released.Absolved of all compassion.I am free .Look into my hate filled eyes and tell me What do you see?Surging aura of my rage Paralyzing you in fear.

Demogorgan (ww) (bodies-Beaten why for (why for)?Can't take much more.(Here we go, here we go, here we go).One, nothing wrong with me,Two, nothing wrong with me.Three, nothing wrong with me.Four, nothing wrong with me.One, something's got to give.Two, something's got to give.Three, something's got to give now...You're all by yourself but you're not alone...Driven by hate consumed by fear.

demogrgan (ww)-Orbs used as transmitters carry electromagnetic beams from above (affecting magnetic fields in the show).Silence, manipulated, tortured ...How immune is your system of suffering?Its in the blood of suffering (familial ref).Its in the blood.

 Demogrgan (Monster)-I shoot the lights out..Whoa, just another lonely night...None of who you get it, ain't nobody cold as this.A zombie (will ref) with no conscience .Everybody knows I'm a motherfucking monster. Everybody wanna know what my Achilles' heel is? Love I don't get enough of it.

[willel]

(Part 1) I think I mostly agree with you here, I'm just not making a distinction based on intent. You're comparing Joyce to Hopper to show how much better she is for the way she handled it but i don't think that's the point. Joyce still lost her cool, still shouted at Jonathan in front of a crowd of people, she is still capable of melting down even if it's for the right reasons or for the right end game. And this is especially if El escalates it (which she tends to do).

(Part 2) I love Joyce a lot but she isn't perfect and I don't want her to be. Her being level headed and handling everything after Hops death in S4 as the patient supportive mom with just some tiny arguments here and there isn't realistic to me. This is gonna be arguably worse for her than when Lonnie left now she has an extra mouth to feed. I would love an exploration of her behaving a bit badly because of all of it piled on her. It could be a good opportunity for some growth for them all

Ok, I wrote a long comment, but to be honest? It just felt like gibberish. I’ll try again to explain my point.

I am cool with drama. We need it for character developments. Arguments, misunderstandings, mistakes, disagreements, they’re almost necessary in every story to make the plot move forward.

Can I imagine Joyce and El getting into some shaky territory? Yeah, of course! El is on an emotional roller coaster and doesn’t have all the necessary tools to handle it. Joyce isn’t a saint (but actually she is) and I don’t expect she’ll be able to handle all those emotions and outbursts 100% correctly all the time. It’s unfair to her.

So let me dive deeper into where this rant actually came from. It’s related to topics I discussed before.

There are people who want El to not get along with the Byers at all, and not because it makes sense, or because conflict is needed for the story, or so the characters can grow.

These people blame Joyce for Hopper’s “death” and for her deciding to move her and her family away. They use El to as their vehicle to express their resentment.

“El hates Joyce for taking her away from Mike. It was so unfair to take her away from her friends. El is totally going to blame and hate Joyce when she finds out it was technically Joyce that killed him. I can’t wait for Hopper to come back. Urg, Joyce is so clingy, El is gonna get so annoyed with her and run away back to Hawkins to live with her friends.”

My issue with these people is, they hate Joyce (probably all the Byers to be honest). They aren’t suggesting these ideas because they want Joyce and El to grow closer or work out their issues. They don’t want El fitting in with the Byers at all. They just want the characters in constant conflict as some sort of revenge against a lady just trying to protect her kids as best she can.

I have never advocated for perfect happy friendly everyone’s riding on unicorns and singing in harmony kind of story except in relaxing fluff fanfiction. I love the grungy emotional sub plots. My fic (which may never be released lolololol) is full of it. I love it. But I love it because it leads to stronger characters and relationships.

El and Joyce getting in a spat over Hopper’s fate? Hell yeah! But unlike certain people, I don’t want that argument to end with them hating each other. I want it to end with them eventually talking it out and growing closer.

El and Will being awkward weirdoes unable to have a conversation with each other even though they’ve lived in the same house for months?? Sure, why not. I did write a fic about that and I love all the complexities of it. But no, I don’t want this to happen just so the never ending Byler vs Mileven crap continues into another season like some people. It should happen so that their characters can grow and learn from it and form that brother and sister duo I so crave.

(lol, I can’t even imagine El and Jonathan getting into a spat. Ok, I can imagine a scenario now that I just thought of something, but no thanks)

There’s simply no way Joyce and El are going to hate each other. Despite all the drama between Hopper and El (throwing books, breaking her things, yelling, screaming, hurtful words), they don’t hate each other and that made them grow closer.

There’s no way an altercation like that could happen like that between El and Joyce, imo, and yet people really think not only can it happen, but that it will cause them to hate each other.

I hope that makes more sense. The original answer was 1015 words, this one is about 550. Lol

[chirpsythismorning]

Personal opinion; I think the Duffers are doing a mistake by not promoting Byler as a possibility at all. I know some people are gonna say that it is because they are trying to keep Byler as a plot twist, but still, they can promote the idea of it without going too far.

We like to say that how the 'ElMikeWill' love triangle is not acknowledged as a love triangle by the GA, Melvins or other fans, but honestly? It is not that it is not acknowledged as a 'love triangle' by non-Bylers, it is that it is not acknowledged as a love triangle by the show, creators or writers. It is not promoted like how Stancy versus Jancy thing is promoted. Mike’s not conditioned as having to choose between El and Will. Honestly, If I were to make my audience get warm for the idea of Byler potentially happening, i would put content regarding it, would try to portray the situation as a love triangle, like ‘Which person Mike is going to choose?’ questions would be on media outlets. Remember that the Duffers still refer to Stancy versus Jancy thing as a love triangle, they portray it as a situation where Nancy has to choose someone, media outlets talk about the love triangle aspect. Whereas for Mike and El and Will, there isn’t something like that. Mike’s not conditioned as being in a love triangle where he has to choose. Will’s situation only gets referred to as relatable and him getting acceptance. They portray Mike and El as a legitimate couple without any question, etc. That’s not exactly portraying as ‘love triangle’ situation here.

Take this as a criticism towards how they're approaching the situation, I guess. Now, I do not know what they're going to do once the trailers or filming or promoting whatever start in a couple of months. But so far, I think they just... are doing nothing and it is not good, imho.

This is all fair!

I do believe that they're going to have no choice but to be more obvious about byler endgame in promo for s5. And so I agree that in large part how I feel about their approach thus far does rely on what is still yet to come.

Personally, I think it's going to be impossible to throw in happy couple milkvan moments, seeing as there wont be any scenes like that. Not saying they wouldn't trick fans with simple fast shots of them side by side dispersed throughout a teaser or something, I just don't think they're going to go all out with trying to convince the audience that Mike and El are romantic in official s5 promo.

S5 is going to be a point when baiting milkvan romantically would be an odd choice if they want people to fully accept byler romantically. So, I do sense that a shift will happen as s5 gets closer and when promo really starts ramping up.

We already technically saw that with s4, where they didn't really prioritize Mike/El in official posters, like at all? We got couple posters for Netflix covers with Jopper/Lumax/Byler, while the one featuring El was her on her own? Then there's the Cali poster with Mike looking at Will, his feet pointing towards him, literally detouring in Will's direction like that meme... Them willing to be that obvious for s4 posters tells me that the s5 posters are going to be even more obvious. If you think about it, it honestly would have been weird to have no byler in s4 posters, same with no byler in s5 posters, only for them to end up together? Thus far that has not been the case tho bc s4 was unhinged as hell, and so it's likely s5 is going to be the same and then some.

That's the other thing about promo with like official posters and trailers, in that they hold a lot more weight to representing the deeper message of the story, especially when the show is complete with all five parts making it like a whole experience. The posters for every season will be highly regarded as holding the truth to what was truly going on. While I do get being frustrated that they don't post enough about it casually on social media, it's just that, tbh no ones going to be using simple social media posts as hard evidence from way back in the day at the end of all this (it's more just a fun addition to the real shit). They're going to be looking at official promotion that was very intricately planned out with easter eggs and very specific foreshadowing in mind, ie. official posters, teasers, and trailers.

When it comes to the whole love triangle thing, with byler paralleling to jancy and milkvan paralleling to stancy, I think there are a couple reasons why they themselves can't acknowledge those parallels.

While I recognize those parallels, and I do agree on a basic level it's all intentionally paralleled deliberately in certain aspects, I still don't necessarily think these love triangles are intended to be seen as identical situations. They have different stakes and completely different circumstances, beyond the most basic similarities between them in that we're also dealing with 2 sets of siblings that are quite similar in character and so no duh they parallel each other.

The main thing that I think gets overlooked is that byler is meant to be a sort of callback to all of the queer-baiting in media that has led us to this point. The only reason they made the choice to go about byler this way, was to subvert a very deep rooted expectation that a boy and boy ending up together on a mainstream show cannot happen. They are feeding this expectation to an audience that is happy to abide by this norm, which is what is going to make the surprise of the boy and boy ending up together, and the fact that this time the gays were actually right instead of wrong for the #1,239 time, just makes it all the more epic.

While they are attempting to follow that same pattern of every other show on the surface, they are hiding the truth in the details. This means that they can get away with quote--unquote 'queer-baiting' within the show itself by making it arguably obvious Mike returns Will's feelings, but because they never acknowledge that it's happening at all outside of the show blatantly, they're technically not queer-baiting.

Them not outright acknowledging the love triangle going on, outside of the subtext on the show itself, works in their favor in fandom spaces as well, where it's super easy for fans to stay in denial because of all of these different things at play, most of all ensuring they can fall back on the safety-net that queer-baiting will always be the norm. The Duffers are nurturing that assumption, while also trying as hard as they can to hint to the audience in the details how close minded that assumption truly is.

They're setting the audience up basically. Those that aren't willing to consider byler even when presented with hard evidence, wont. And those that are willing to consider byler when presented with hard evidence, will. Both sides are able to be somewhat comfortable in their assumptions, bc the side that is unwilling to consider it has history on their side, whereas the side willing to consider it knows that the evidence is too astronomical to not be entirely intentional.

That's the whole reason they did the monologue with Mike saying I love you 9 times... because it allowed that sector of the fandom to be comfortable in their assumptions based on what was being superficially told to them, despite everything being shown to them surrounding that event outright contradicting those assumptions.

It's all very, very intricate, as they are making decisions with the audience's reactions in mind.

I am glad you brought up the love triangle parallels, bc this concept was eating my brain the other day. Though, I was more so hung up on the fact that them not acknowledging those parallels also could in and of itself mean that the rules don't necessarily apply identically to these love triangles?

Arguably, fans are still going to ship Mike and El just like fans are still going to ship Nancy and Steve post s5 regardless of them not being endgame. But, is that what they want at the end of all of this? I think with Nancy and Steve the stakes are nowhere near as high as the sort of build up and tearing down of Milkvan, in that, by not at all acknowledging Will's role in these events like they do with Jonathan, they are saying that it isn't as simple as Mike just falling out of love with El like it was for Nancy with Steve, only to realize her feelings for Jonathan.

If it was that simple, they wouldn't have needed to carry out this fandom wide misinterpretation of Mike not saying I love you over the course of 2 seasons and STILL at the end of all that, have that audience completely in the dark about Will's role in that conflict, unless the truth is way more complex here than it was for Jancy/Stancy.

I mean you could obviously make the argument that from the beginning the Duffers framed Stancy very negatively, so maybe at the end of all of this, they do want to make it obvious that they never wanted us to ship either of them in the first place? HOWEVER them holding off on this concept outright with byler is why I think it would make sense for it to be this big thing, bc otherwise why save it for the last season? It would feel sort of anti-climactic if they treated it just like the other love triangle's situation bc of the confusion they have caused? This is no doubt going to be fucking breaking news to the majority. They're gonna need a recap and context of everything that was left out or intentionally kept from them, otherwise they're not going to be able to subscribe properly to what happens in s5.

And then there's a whole other layer of familial implications we're dealing with. Like with Jonathan and Steve, they don't have to deal with the complexity of being siblings like Will and El do. Will and Mike ending up together means that El and Mike will literally be ending the show in a sibling dynamic. And so, I do think it makes more sense for them to really want to separate the viewer from being able to ship Mike and El together, especially when they're already a little nervous fans will be too homophobic to accept byler as it is. This would make a lot of the familial references with Mike/El in earlier seasons hit a lot harder too, assuming rewatch value with byler endgame was on their minds.

So, I guess I will say I would agree fully with all of your points if this was an average love triangle, but that's not the case here. We're dealing with a bizarre love triangle by definition and I think there's different stakes that make their approach to this valid. When it's all said and done, it will make a lot of sense even if it doesn't right now.

Though, if i'm being completely honest, I think what plays the biggest role in their reasoning is hiatus. Like it truly comes down to the audience having almost 2+ years to ruminate over what happened in s4 and sort of work through that and drive themselves crazy.

If they had treated byler as an equal option to milkvan blatantly in casual promo for s4, while still attempting to make it seem like milkvan was endgame, it would have been dubbed queer-bait irrefutably. Or worse, most fans would have figured out byler was likely to happen, making the 2 year wait and the hype of s5 promo sort of fall flat bc everyone saw it coming.

Instead, a lot of people are fully confident it cannot and will not happen. Like they are 100% convinced. And we still have at least a year for them to work through that assumption...

Something to also keep in mind, is how they've dealt with leaks worse and worse over the years. And so a lot of these really exciting surprises they have, get discovered before they get the chance to reveal them. But bc so many people are homophobic, they can have a lot of evidence for byler and still manage to make this a surprise to those people. That's what makes this revelation so fun to them. Because it's soooo obvious in their eyes and yet most of their audience doesn't want to see it. Like that's gotta be very satisfying for them in a big way. I can't even imagine.

How I see it going down, or at least how I think it would make sense for it to go down, is while hiatus is still going strong, they want to keep both sides fairly confident, but especially milkvans side because that is eventually going to disappear at the end of all of this. The clock is ticking. When it's over it will be over forever. And so I understand why they're trying to hold onto giving those fans hope that milkvan will happen bc they only have so much longer for that to even be an assumption before the truth is eventually revealed.

And yet still, there will be a point when they want the audience to like s5 and accept it as the best ending, and that will mean that s5 promo will present a major shift in terms of them sort of agknowleding that the fans who have been paying attention know that the writers care about the details. That people who say the deatils don't matter are not going to be ready for what is to come. That is going to very likely be the wake up call to those that have been using stuff like them forgetting Will's birthday means that they forget things and therefore nothing can be that deep. It will no doubt be a punch in the gut for sure to those that have been in denial about that, but it's going to happen and it's probably going to happen within less than a year before the premiere.

6 months is another time frame that I could see them getting more brave.

3 months is when it's going to start getting real.

1 month and weeks, days before, it's going to be crunch time. They're going to be very heavily encouraging rewatching the show. They're going to be getting defensive arguably to prepare themselves for the inevitable backlash.

But they also know that it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, the truth was hiding in the details all along. It didn't come out of nowhere. It was right there. I think they feel comfort in that no matter what, bc anyone claiming it came out of nowhere at the end of all this, is gonna look stupid when the creators themselves are saying that is the opposite of the truth.

And then when s5 finally does come out, likely in 2 volumes to hold onto the hype as long as they possibly can, before it ends forever, that's when it will really set in that they're not going to hold back anymore and this is officially canon now. That's when the cast will fully agknoweldge it and talk about it and how they dealt with keeping it in the dark for so long and why felt the need to do it this way. And that's when hopefully you and all of us will get the closure we need.

The idea is that the satisfaction of being the first ones right ever in the history of mainstream television, is going to be immensely satisfying. Arguably, seeing those who vehemently denied it happening's reactions to it happening, will make all of the doubt along the way worth it.