#and in that case not giving direct answers to questions is STILL not queerbaiting on the ACTORS' part | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

onlyonekenobi · 4 years ago

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Hi there 🐝💕 Firstly, thank you so much for your amazing blog.

Secondly, I was a fan of SPN many years ago and fell out of it for a while, only having gotten sucked back in after 15×18 (surprise). Back when I was into it before, there was a lot of discussion about Jensen being potentially homophobic, and now I'm noticing that there's been some..... less than awesome stuff said by Misha, too, in terms of the queerbaiting on the show and having only acted Castiel as in love with Dean this past season.

Obviously the content of the show itself proves this wrong, but it still troubles me, and I couldn't find much about it online other than a few posts by people and one con transcript. Do you have any feedback on this, and would you mind sharing it?

(Thank you so much, and no worries if you don't wanna answer, just keep being awesome!)

Hi!

I’ll do my best here, and I’ll try to track down some sources. also, idk if you sent this question to anyone else as well, but if you did, i’m interested to see what they say. if not, i am flattered to be your Trusted Source.

so, first: jensen re homophobia

I could be wrong, but I don’t remember him ever making any kind of “homophobic” comments OUTSIDE OF things regarding destiel that were construed that way by some fans (if i’m wrong, please let me know). I do remember him shutting down destiel comments, etc, and the infamous “?? no” which has since been debunked by the OP as having been taken out of context. (i can’t find the debunking post on my blog but if anyone has it please link!) with the shutting down destiel comments, he was definitely brash at times! but, I do think it’s also important to note that he and misha were explicitly told not to talk about it. and we know that jensen is (or at least especially used to be) a pretty shy guy, and I think destiel questions/comments being shoved in his face in a public setting- when addressing it could get him in trouble with his job- made him nervous and upset.

however, he took a noticeable shift re: destiel in recent years. for one, we know that he gave his blessing for the canon textual confession (again, I can’t find an og post in my absolute mess of late stage supernatural tags, but if anyone has the receipts, please drop them). I could add more of my own personal spec about how jensen shifted his acting choices in light of this information, but I’ll just move on. we know that he was excited about the confession scene. here’s a second post about that.

and re: general homophobia, here’s a post of jackles with pride flags, as well as a 2019 post from his aunt, who is gay. also, this is largely a shitpost, but I saw it in my jackles tag while looking for the above, and it feels relevant, so i’m including it. a little levity before we move on.

now, misha.

I am aware of misha saying two upsetting things in regards to “the confession wasn’t bury your gays, why are you so angry” Again, if there’s more that i’m forgetting, please let me know. The first was in this panel talk (start at 35:50) from November 22. Here is a relevant post about that moment (I also watched the whole panel live and agree with this post.) The second is this video on twitter, and the following thread, from Nov. 25. However, after several fans replied to him explaining why we were so upset, he issued this apology on Nov. 26. I wanted to give you the original link there, but I’m also including a screenshot with a thoughtful and important addition here. And here is a tweet about Misha finding out about The Castiel Project.

i’ve never heard anything about misha only acting cas as in love for the last season exclusively, so I don’t have any posts to expressly debunk it, but I do firmly believe that to be untrue, just based on things misha has let slip over the years

and for both of them, it’s worth noting that whenever they were asked direct questions about the show, they could only do their best to talk around things like queerbaiting, etc, because they obviously couldn’t actively speak out against the show or the network (like this). for example, we know that misha got a couple phone calls from producers on occasions where he toed the line a little too closely, and he commented how you unfortunately have to listen to the people who have the power to kill off your character (immediately following previous clip)

in conclusion

neither of them are homophobic. to the best of my knowledge, neither of them have ever made an outright homophobic comment. and in cases regarding destiel (again, to the best of my knowledge) they have both either changed course or apologized since making any unsavory comments.

there are also WAY more posts on all this that I didn’t include here. if you search the jensen or misha tags on my blog, or probably the blog of just about anyone i follow, you could look into it more

all that said, it’s also important to note that i am Just Some Guy. i did my best to compile this information in a relevant and meaningful way, but i have oversaturated-sponge-adhd-brain that has been actively following this fandom for a decade, and i’m sure some things got lost in there. so to anyone reading this, if i forgot anything critical, please don’t yell at me, i am but a simple internet jester, just like you.

and while we’re here, I’ll say that- while I do think it’s important to keep a critical eye trained everywhere- if we were going to criticize any spn cast members for unsavory comments, these two are certainly not where i would start

tl;dr, ultimately myself and jensen and misha are all Just Some Guy, and none of us know them, but as far as I can figure, they are both genuinely kind and thoughtful people who care about and respect the lgbt community, including their respective characters’ involvement in it and the real world consequences that has

#hi i hope this makes sense i've spent four hours compiling it and i can't look at it anymore xx #anyway i hope this answers your question(s) but if it doesn't please feel free to dm me!!#asks #long post #rachelillustrates

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beacon-lamp · 4 years ago

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oddly this kept me up at night and i would like to ask a bunch of people on tumblr sp here we go. have you guys ever thought about how george/dream may have gotten sick of the whole dnf thing? like what if one them just fucking snaps either live or not, they've stated that they're fine with it but at some point one of them has to get sick of it right? i feel like it would be george because dream would be "aha money" you know idk i feel like we're so close to that breaking point 1/2

and i've been to other fandoms where the two people getting shipped just snaps, dan and phil, larry stylinson. maybe i'm just being paranoid but they're both straight (dream may not be) but still if you identify as straight you'd be bothered by that yeah? do you guys think they had a huge argument about it or something god i'm getting scared rant to me idc just tell me something give me a paragraph go for it 2/2

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honestly i don’t know anon. it’s 4am i haven’t slept and there are too many questions and never enough answers. (also i lived through the phandom and one direction eras but never participated and only saw things from the outside so i’m not sure how things ended.)

i’m not very good at comforting people and your worries are valid but please don’t be scared and maybe go to sleep.

the thing is, we’ll never know how the dream team truly feel as that’s how parasocial relationships with internet personalities are. we can speculate on “is it queerbaiting or is it just closeted/repressed emotions” but none of us actually know.

that being said, in this poorly written essay/stream of consciousness, i will speculate on this dteam situation you have asked about.

the three of them are Good Friends who have known each other for Years, long before any of us had ever heard of them. i mean they spend half the day on call or falling asleep on call with each other. and if you think about your own friendships with people you’ve known for Years, you (hopefully) respect your friend’s boundaries and are comfortable telling them if something made you uncomfortable and vice versa. so i think if any one of them were to start becoming really uncomfortable with the Shipping and whatnot, they would tell one another and work it out in a way that respects their own personal boundaries. because that’s what i would do with my friends and that’s probably what you would do with yours.

so under the reasonable assumptions that they are all comfortable enough with each other and practice healthy communication with each other, i don’t think things would ever boil over to a point where one of them Snaps.

ok but what if that does happen? what if one of them does Snap?

well i don’t think it would happen on a livestream. they’re all Adults with an understanding of the public image they have put out into the world and probably have enough professionalism to not air out private matters publicly. worst case scenario, the person would just end their livestream early. and then the three of them will talk it all out privately because at the end of the day, they’re all friends and Care about each other. and maybe they’ll argue, because it’s good to express your emotions and not keep them bottled up inside for too long. and this might take a little while because emotions are a fickle thing.

so then what? after one of them becomes uncomfortable with the shipping and they’ve worked it out amongst themselves?

i would assume they would all come to an agreement that respects all 3 of their boundaries. a “statement” of sorts would likely be drafted up by them together and they would post it probably on twitter, likely reassuring fans that they are all still friends but that their stance on shipping has changed.

the fandom would be on fire for a day or two. things would trend on twitter.

some people might leave the fandom; some might be toxic about it; but most would likely remain and respect the dteam’s boundaries/feelings.

and after the dust has settled, maybe dteam won’t want to do what they do anymore. and that’s ok. or maybe it’ll blow over and things will be the same except minus the shipping.

who knows. certainly not me. and i don’t know if any of this will ever happen? maybe one of them will come out and the timeline shifts? maybe things never change for the duration of their mcyt careers? or maybe something completely unforeseen happens because we’re talking about 3 guys in their early 20s who play a block game for a living. who knows what could happen.

but i do think things will be ok in the end.

because regardless of where the dream team’s careers take them, i genuinely believe that dream, george, and sapnap would Never put their careers ahead or at the expense of each other’s feelings. and that’s perhaps the bottom line of it all.

so please don’t be scared anon. and maybe go to sleep. hugs.

#none of this was coherent pls tell me if anyone actually understood any of this #anon #ty for the ask #im gonna read this tmrw morning and be like wtf #Anonymous #also i dont take ‘truthing’ seriously like its fun to speculate #but idk i dont rly care all that much abt whether theyre actually gay straight bi etc #but hey if it brings u joy and ur not hurting anyone or yourself then u do u fam #also was any of this helpful??? prob not but maybe???? idk if i even made a coherent point #long post

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sendasan · 5 years ago

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What do u think bane will do in season 2. Especially now scarecrow’s dead

There’s really a lot of wish fulfillment I can ramble since Bane is already well loved in the Harley Quinn show, and I could see a slight increase of screen time for him in Season 2, should they show him surviving. It would been a god send if he even steadily becomes apart of the main cast of the show. Unfortunately, like my faith in this show, it’s high doubt it would even come close to these weak predictions.

Spoilers & other strong topics that may trigger negative stigma are mentioned below. Please read with precaution!

As recent as now multiple sources has indicated, Harley Quinn series has been renew for a season 2, with the release date set by April 3 2020. That’s pretty fast release, even by mini-series standard considering the typical work load an animation show has to accomplish. But the news connecting to the series has pretty much affirms my perspective (possibly confirms) what may come for season 2. I’ll be listing only a handful of the most canonical case scenario that I think will show for future episodes:

Bane will barely acknowledge or even care to mentioned Scarecrow. Shrugs and move on.

The writers will set up a humorous unneeded joke, by making Bane mummer, “I wonder what’s Scarecrow is up to?”.

Bane may get taken a little more seriously with the writers, but not enough to implement the aftermath of Gotham’s earthquake, or his grieving.

Bane will grieve or undergo a forlorn stage for the deceased Scarecrow, but it’s treated more like a running gag than a small arc.

Bane grieving is treated seriously and may end up connecting him to the larger arc in the season, and possibly the series together.

A good handful of my predicted thoughts are so bleak, and yet this is how I feel what the show will give me. It isn’t like ROTTMNT where the show staffs have no qualms in humanizing the villains quirks and even explicitly affirms that their love and affection for their significant others don’t hinder their fighting skills and motivation (e.g. Hypno’s love for his roomie, Warren Stone, and Repo Mantis’ dedication in caring for his mutated cat). And it sadly doesn’t have the same vocal fandom to backup the friendship relation, as it did with TFP when Breakdown died on the beginning of season 2. At least those writers wrote the bare minimum of Knockout’s sentimentalism towards his deceased partner, despite their own questionable interpretation.

I can’t really say much positive faith in this show, as it’s hit and miss quality is “okay” at best. The writer’s seldom accountability of the show’s unfortunate implications, including the antisemitism and queerbaiting, does help much.

We never really got a concrete reason as to why Scarecrow would even team-up with the Joker. With Queen Fable, as least she was pretty much an open book (no pun intended), as the writer did a good job in showing her hostility and amoral nature. Joker’s plan benefits her indulgence in furthering her “evilness” to the next level to no regards to either side of the organizations (Justice League, Legion of Doom, etc). Scarecrow, on the other hand, is a different story. Sure, he gets to see Gotham in terror 24/7 in the most brutal regime to been seen in-universe. That’s fair trade for someone like Scarecrow who’s not only gets to have front seat of witnessing fear, but also record observation that will further his study of it...and yet we don’t really see that much of scientific Crane? Sure, we do see him creating chemicals and administering components that exemplifies his skills, but not so much on the motive side? We just pretty much have to assumed that based on his overall character’s existence in the franchise. This really further drives my frustration more as the closes answer I may get out of this by canon standard is...probably the one have to begrudgingly accept.

In the Final Joke, the very last appearance of Scarecrow, we get a brief interaction of the Joker and Scarecrow (and quiet Batman). Joker longing in boredom, as Scarecrow is not even phase by the now destructive terror in Gotham called a “routine”. As Scarecrow brings up a suggestion to brighten the Joker up, I recalled Joker nonchalantly retorted:

“Hah! You are so one note, Bag-Head.“

This got me jolt up a little. Not really enough to speculate for future episodes to come, but only for what I needed from that scene. It could have been hinted, or reinforce the degree of insecurity Scarecrow has; just as he established himself a level of threat to the city and possibly further afar, Joker still dismiss him as nothing more than a villain of the week. Something he and Bane has in common run through in the series among their peers. The tragic key difference between the two is Scarecrow is more impulsive, mayhaps desperate, to disprove that. Whereas Bane, be it for a reserve sense of confidence or too focal on petty vengeance, never occur to even try disproving those claims in the first place. Given the show’s theme, this would have not been a far-fetch idea. It makes it clear that Joker's presence, even by villain’s professionalism standard, are destructive in the long-run, no matter how effectively infamous he works for the Legion of Doom. And that would have made his death all the more meaningful, and befitting for a minor character like Scarecrow...

...but then again, I could just be giving them too much credit. The writer most concrete direction in the scene was basically puppeteer Joker as their own words, stating what Scarecrow is to them: a one note character. Unlike the other characters we’re given the impression on the forum, they don’t seem to be interested in keeping Scarecrow around, let alone develop him. If the season finale has (graphically) shown, he pretty much accomplish his only agency in a story; a as a living tool.

Maybe I’m taking this a little too hard as I do favor Scarecrow as an overall Batman favorite. It’s just tiring that so many mainstream animated adult-oriented show will only aim to South Park level at most. I’m not asking it to be on Bojack Horseman or Batman: The Animated Series, but it be refreshing for them to at least self-critique their writing execution in terms of characters; minor or not.

#tw: homophobia #tw: abuse #tw: antisemitism #rant #harley quinn animated show #hq #scarecrow #jonathan crane #bane #dc comics #this came out longer than needed #but man i had lowered my standard before watching the series

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sol1056 · 6 years ago

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a bunch more asks waiting their turns so politely

These are all various asks about the likelihood of a remake, a rewritten season, or a spinoff.

1 could we get an alternate version 2 is a rewrite for S8 a viable option 3 would they change the ending for a spin-off 4 are single-episode edits possible for S8 5 will S7 reactions affect S8 6 how will DW get us to watch S8

Behind the cut.

With the shitstorm that vld became, would dreamworks ever take pity on us and remake some seasons of voltron that turned out like crap, or not even air, just release them as alternate versions on dvd? Im questioning the possibilities, not the probabilities, bc Im really not optimistic about that, I just wanna know if a show can do that and what would it take for the company to snap their fingers and be like "lets do it" (besides having money)

It’s not like frequent reboots don’t have precedent in other franchises; hell, comics do it on the regular. It’s also much cheaper to do a series of graphic novels or full novelizations geared towards an older audience. The problem there is that Dreamworks isn’t a comic book company or a publishing house; that part of the franchise would have to be farmed out to someone else.

My guess --- if another remake is ever a possible option --- it’d be several years down the road. The first version would be set aside as, say, the Y-7 version for kids and family, and then you’d find a new angle for the next version.

If DW got the impression there was a massive older crowd (say, 25-45) who would’ve eaten up a more mature, somewhat darker, version? Sure, why not try to grab that audience? I mean, look at the Castlevania series: it’s not pulling any punches on making clear it’s for adults. That would also require a different business model, since what adults like to buy for themselves is very different than what kids want. Skip the cake toppers, for starters.

do you think given the reaction to VLD S7, is a rewrite for S8 a viable option? I feel the fandom is divided about the general reaction to S7. If JDS and M can just [focus on the fanbase segment] that liked it, why [bother trying to fix it for those] that didn't?

Given what I’ve been seeing in terms of data from the season... I think they aimed to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one.

Pretty sure I’ve said something to this extent before: when you can’t please everyone, the answer isn’t to split the difference and piss everyone off. The answer is to pick your audience and give them the best damn story you can. The rest will sort itself out.

Let me put it this way: there are enough people who didn’t like S7 for the crummy animation, the OOC dialogue and actions, and the nonsensical storyline overloaded with a host of new characters that stole time from the actual protagonists. And there are also enough people who didn’t like S7 for queerbaiting the audience, killing off three out of four queer characters, and sidelining the one remaining queer character. There may be some overlap between those two sets, but taken together, those two sets are pretty much the dominant majority of the fan base.

I don’t know if that makes a rewrite a viable option, but it should be making a few execs think twice about letting the EPs/staff carry on in the same direction. I mean, you want a series to end on a high note, not an ‘omg that had such potential but boy did it self-destruct in the last two seasons’ note.

So if DW wants to do a Voltron spin-off, would they consider changing the ending to VLD to give Shiro the things he earned so this spin-off wouldn't be dead out of the water?

That would depend entirely on whether they’ve gotten the message that Shiro’s current status isn’t good enough for a significant part of the fanbase. If all they’re hearing (or all they choose to hear) is that it’s great to sideline one of their protagonists with no in-story explanation whatsoever, what’s to tell them there’s anything that needs addressing?

Additionally, if the entirety of the issue is Shiro --- and everyone else is just fine, thanks --- I’m not sure that’d rate as enough to warrant changing so much. More likely any spin-off would start some X length of time between, and we’d get an implied intermediary backstory (or even a mild retcon), and go from there.

Truth is, whomever gets the spin-off will (I really hope) be a better writer and not have to deal with intrusive newbie EPs. Even then, they’d be kinda limited on what they could do, given the spin-off does need to make sense placed against the first series. Then again, VLD hasn’t respected its own premise or continuity for the past few seasons, anyway.

So I guess there’s always the option to start with an episode that retells VLD’s ending... Kinda awkward, but not unheard of, to basically retcon a previous series out of existence.

I have no doubt DW is looking into what went wrong with this season. I know it might be a little to late to fix all of Season 8, but do you think they would have at least maybe the last few episodes changed to give a better ending to the show - or at least more respect to Shiro as a character?

Normally I’d say no. I mean, episode 1 should have characters making choices that in turn impact episode 2, and those choices prompt the events in episode 3... but that’s a logic VLD threw out the window somewhere between S3 and S4, and it’s only gotten worse since then.

In which case, oh sure, why not? It wouldn’t make any less sense than what they’ve already got planned, if S7 is any indication.

Could the reaction to season 7 cause any change the execs minds going into season 8?

One problem: this is a Dreamworks production, but it’s not a DW-owned story. It’s a franchise: there are other players involved. There are the two guys who first butchered GoLion into Voltron, Toei whose story got that embutcherment, Netflix as the distributor, along with Playmates and Lion Forge and other contracted partners. There’s a lot more people at the table than just DW.

It’s one thing for the EPs to say they messed up, and apologize. It’s quite another for Dreamworks to admit publicly their lousy (or nonexistent) oversight allowed the situation to happen.

Legal would have apoplexy, for starters. What wins you a franchise is often showing you have the confidence (if not sheer chutzpah) that you can do this job justice like no other. And then you hit S7 and must admit you hired people who made a complete hash of it?

If there’s anything that will cost the EPs any future roles of a similar position, it’s that they’ve put DW in a very uncomfortable position. Caught between a furious fanbase and overly-interested co-owners, someone --- or several someones --- are treading very lightly right now. They’re not going to forget the EPs are the ones who precipitated the whole mess.

I think we are in a unique situation where the fact that the EPs were vocal about [changing] VLD ... could be a blessing for us & DW. [But we know it] was changed, & DW's part seems to be more negligence than direct fault like the EPs. So DW can drop it or fix it, and a rewrite would be worth us sticking around, while restoring DW's name.

Again, that depends on whether DW is in a position that they can do so. I assure you they’d throw the EPs under the bus at the first opportunity, because that’s how the corporate world works. So their failure to do so is either because they don’t see the EPs’ actions as untenable (as far as we know), or because doing so would expose DW corporate to greater retaliation from elsewhere. (It could also be part of the agreement that these particular EPs are in place for the duration of the series’ production, too. Sometimes that happens.)

I still can’t get over the fact that the EPs were so blunt about having already had a script fully written when they asked to revise. From the Studio Mir leaks, we can guess at least some of the animation was already in production at least a year ago, or earlier. That’s a lot to redo.

Here’s something that only just occurred to me, when I listed the co-partners in this franchise: the Koplar brothers. These are the geniuses who figured they didn’t need to know Japanese to make GoLion into an american production; turns out they were geniuses on some level ‘cause it was a hit, anyway. They went on to produce Voltron: Fleet of Doom (1986), Voltron: the Third Dimension (1998), and Voltron Force (2011). If there is anyone at the table who’d be likely to have nostalgia goggles, it’d be the Koplars. This has been their ongoing story in one way or another for over 30 years.

Originally, the EPs said they weren’t tied to nostalgia; they weren’t going to redo the story as it was, but the story as they remembered. (I’d argue this actually indicates a stronger set of nostalgia goggles, but eh.) Their determination to get rid of Shiro has always felt like nostalgia goggles to me. Perhaps the Koplars were the greatest supporters of Keith as BP --- since that would respect the pattern they’ve followed, over and over, in all the iterations.

Considering the Koplar’s somewhat litigious background over Voltron ownership, they may’ve had the ability to overrule. So... if you want to bench Shiro, you pitch your work with the execs who are most likely to agree with you. And if you can do that in the window between the previous VP of TV retiring and a brand-new external hire coming on as VP... welp, you got permission, and the new VP may’ve signed off, not realizing the impact.

Which would put DW over a barrel, in some ways. If DW could’ve overruled their partners, the EPs never would’ve been able to make that end-run in the first place.

How do u think DW will try to get us to watch s8? They & the EPs have shattered our trust and the show is so messy its almost unsalvageable.

Stay to see X point's resolution? Yeah, we stayed many seasons for nothing, next.

We have more rep? Ex. blonde girl is autistic... So we should be scared for her too???

There's more queer rep? Yeah, we heard that one already.

Unless everyone responsible is fired and a new crew runs the next seasons?

I don’t know. I would hope the answer is ‘by giving us a story that makes sense, and creates closure for all the protagonists, and not just by making two of them emotional rewards for two other characters.’

At this point, there is only one thing that’s going to make Dreamworks change course: if the fallout from VLD impacts its other projects. If the majority of the VLD fanbase up and announced it would be boycotting She-Ra or Fast & Furious or Trollhunters on the grounds that DW screwed up so badly with VLD that it cannot be trusted... Then you’d see movement. If the PR got so bad from so many upset and angry VLD fans that major news outlets paid attention and started writing articles about the situation, that would also put a black mark beside Dreamworks’ name -- and then you’d see movement.

With the VLD toys a failure (for whatever mismanaged reasons) and a financial model set entirely on toys, fixing VLD now would be throwing good money after bad. Unless, of course, there’s an impact beyond just this single series.

Until Dreamworks can see the impact in some concrete sense, they have far more to lose from their partners than they have to gain from their fanbase. It’s just how it is, with corporations in late capitalism.

You want to make an impact? You tell Dreamworks ahead of time, and then you follow through: pick a week and go silent. Nothing about VLD, here or on twitter or anywhere else. No reblogs on She-Ra updates. Ignore the podcasts. Don’t click on the articles. That stuff’ll be there when the week is over, after all. Show DW what it’s like when a fanbase checks out, by doing it. It’s a short-term boycott, but the reason groups do boycotts is because they work.

#vld #voltron #sol thinks about stuff #random commentary

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sherlockedfanshani · 6 years ago

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Johnlock: Two years on

I posted the following on a Sherlock fan forum in August 2016. I’ve just found it again and revisited it. It thought it might be interesting to reflect on how things have panned out in the Sherlock fandom:

OK if you can bear with me, this is a long one! I wanted to set down some thoughts on this whole situation, which - frankly - I think has become a bit of a mess. Whether it can be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction at this stage I think is unlikely, but who knows?! As far as I can see it, there are two entrenched sides now: TJLC shippers on one, TPTB on the other, and other fans - both non-Johnlockers and Johnlockers who don’t want or don’t expect their ship to become canon - caught somewhere in the middle. This is just my personal interpretation. I realise others will see things very differently so please accept that my intention is only to try and set things out in a non-inflammatory way. I will set my cards on the table from the start. I don’t think it is or has ever been Steven Moffat & Mark Gatiss’ intention for Sherlock and John to enter into a romantic or a sexual relationship in their version of this story. I take at face value what they have said about addressing the fact that, in the 21st century, two close male friends living together would make some people question whether their relationship was more than platonic. And that, combined with the fact that both Moffat & Gatiss’ careers began in comedy and sitcoms, the way they have explored this in ‘Sherlock’ has mostly been through humour. That humour, incidentally, is never at the expense of gay people or gay relationships. If anything it’s a gentle mockery of any characters (Mrs Hudson, Angelo, the innkeepers in THOB) who make erroneous assumptions. In fact, humour is derived from the notion that homosexuality is so unremarkable these days. Therefore characters automatically jump to the conclusion that what Sherlock and John are gay, simply because such a close male friendship is more unusual! Do I think the “gay jokes” are always successful? Not entirely. Even Gatiss is on record as having said maybe they overdid them. However, I don’t think for a moment that they ever expected any section of their audience to interpret these occasional moments in each episode as hints or subtext that Sherlock and John would actually get together as a couple. So what happened way back in 2010? The show airs and becomes a bigger hit than Moffat & Gatiss could ever have imagined. At some stage it becomes clear to them that the show is attracting a very devoted collection of predominantly young and predominantly female fans. And via social media interaction, the creators become aware that for this fanbase, the largest part of the appeal of the show is the relationship between John and Sherlock. I’ve no idea if they’d heard of slash fiction and shipping before it became such a phenomenon in the Sherlock fandom, but presumably they became aware pretty rapidly. In the early days, the cast and crew responded in different ways whenever the fourth wall was broken and they were confronted with the Johnlock-related stories, photo manips and artwork that the fandom was producing. Initially they seemed amused and even played along. However, their responses to some of the more explicit, NSFW stuff that was shoved in their faces - either by fans or by journalists such as Caitlin Moran or Graham Norton - was less genial, and you got the definite sense that they weren’t entirely comfortable. The image of these fans that was being presented then was that they were hysterical, teenage, heterosexual girls: unable or unwilling to have physical, real-world relationships of their own, and fantasising about two men getting together for their titillation in much the same cliched way that straight men fantasise over lesbians. (Note: I’m not saying this was the reality - just the perception which was promoted all the time and which presumably TPTB also inherited.) So their responses began to shift. The creators have always said that fans are absolutely at liberty to write or create whatever they like. To my knowledge they have stood by that. No legal action of any kind has ever been threatened against any of the Sherlock fanbase for anything they have written, drawn or photoshopped. They have even expressed admiration for some of the artwork. However, they definitely took a step back and cooled on this stuff. Over time, both Gatiss and Moffat’s attitude towards and relationship with online fanbases has definitely suffered. They are fans themselves as they frequently remind us. Massive fans. And although there was no ‘Sherlock’ when they were younger and growing up, there was of course the other big TV show that has shaped their careers: ‘Doctor Who’. Remember, they are from a different generation. When they were kids, teenagers, even young men, the fan experience was totally different and almost entirely passive. You couldn’t post your opinions on a massive global forum, there was practically no way to contact other fans outside your immediate geographic locality, and there was no way of contacting the people who made the series, or at least certainly no way of guaranteeing they could see what you wrote or elicit a reply from them. Maybe this means that they haven’t adapted to the way modern fandom works. Maybe it means that as middle-aged men, they expect their fanbases to be more respectful and more passive, and ultimately to accept what they are given or, alternatively, exercise the only other option: stop watching and walk away. So what do they experience in this brave new world? Steven Moffat takes over the show-running job on ‘Doctor Who’, and has a colossal amount of vitriol flung at him by its fanbase. So much so that he decides to quit twitter altogether. He’s also routinely accused of misogyny, to the point where he is forced to give interviews rebutting the notion. I’m not going to get into whether or not the claims have any validity, I’m just trying to make the case for why he he may appear prickly or thin-skinned when it comes to criticism in general. Fan interaction also complicates matters just because the vocabulary that fans use is different. Young fans tweet “u lil shit” to Mark Gatiss in the way they would to their friends, and this is unsurprisingly not interpreted in the way it is intended. Offence is caused, people are blocked, and more barriers are erected between TPTB and the people who love and are inspired by their work. At some point, attitudes within fandom began to shift. Rather than just shipping two characters whose relationship nobody ever believed would become canon, many of the online/tumblr fanbase began to believe that Johnlock could and should do so. The notion took hold that if Gatiss were solely in charge of the show, this would indeed happen, and it was only Moffat - the nasty heterosexual - who was getting in the way. Gatiss was tweeted countless times to this effect. Only recently, someone on tumblr discovered an old League of Gentlemen sketch where Gatiss plays a gay character whose relationship (and its subsequent break-up) is fetishised and patronised by an overbearing straight woman called Tish. Whilst this sketch is problematic and can certainly be viewed as being misogynistic on some level, I don’t think it’s stretching credulity to speculate that ‘Tish’ is probably based on a real-life person and that Gatiss was indulging in some therapy by yelling at her on stage night after night. Did Gatiss connect this person with the Johnlock shippers? Did it seem to him that he was now having his professional career diminished by a bunch of pubescent teenage girls with a crush on Benedict Cumberbatch who counted him amongst their number “shipping Johnlock”? It also presumptuously placed him in the position of junior partner to his straight colleague Moffat, banning him from writing what he really wants. Another patronising assumption. This is total speculation, but I wonder if John’s vehement “I am NOT GAY!” to Mrs Hudson in the Gatiss-penned “The Empty Hearse” was provoked by all the online speculation directed at Gatiss via his twitter feed. Was this intended as the ultimate response - to shut down the Johnlock debate once and for all? Ironically, of course, it had the opposite effect. It was interpreted that Mrs Hudson was the ultimate Johnlock shipper, and she of course could see the fact staring in her face that John and Sherlock were simply made for each other! Then we come to Mumbai in 2014. And Gatiss - in a departure from the creators’ habitually evasive and jokey means of answering questions about forthcoming plot points - embarks on a lengthy and heartfelt explanation/justification when he is questioned about Johnlock. I’ve watched this video more than once and I can’t interpret his speech as anything other than sincere. And this is also why I think Gatiss and Moffat’s reactions to whenever Johnlock is raised are becoming more irritable, more frustrated and with none of the playfulness they exhibit everywhere else. Gatiss must be aware of the accusations of “queerbaiting”. They have appeared on his twitter feed, apart from anything else. And just as Moffat feels hypersensitive to accusations of misogyny, Gatiss must surely feel the same way about being accused of effectively betraying his community and having internalised homophobia. He tries to set the record state but what happens? He still isn’t believed. Of course, a big part of this is a problem entirely of Moffat and Gatiss’ making. When you spend the bulk of interviews smugly declaring that you lie to protect future plot points, you can’t then be surprised when your fans don’t then believe you about other things: no matter how impassioned or frustrated you might sound. They really have made a rod for their own backs. The With An Accent journalist detected a difference in tone and attitude to the Johnlock denials compared to other obfuscations about plot, but if you’re not in the room, AND it’s not something you want to hear, why would you believe them? Johnlockers have varying degrees of expectation of their ship becoming canon, ranging from those who want it to remain strictly in their own heads and never be actualised on the show, via those who think it would be nice but is unlikely, through to those who desperately want it to be but remain unsure. And then we have TJLC. TJLC is a conspiracy in the truest sense of the word. Every piece of data is viewed through the prism of an utter conviction that not only should Johnlock happen, it will. Costume choices, set designs, drinks, lighting, everything is presented as evidence of confirmation of Johnlock, and some of it in the most convoluted way, with no acknowledgment that there could be any other possible interpretation for what appears on screen. A coincidentally commissioned survey into LGB representation is cited as conclusive proof, as well as a quote from Gatiss from an interview years ago that the way to introduce more LGBT representation is “softly, softly”, so as not to frighten the horses, so that everyone just sees it as mundane, everyday and normal. Ironically, if the conspiracy is true, and Johnlock is ultimately going to be the ‘big reveal’, that would be precisely the opposite approach to what Gatiss describes. It would make gay representation into a sensational shock twist, just like Mary’s reveal as the assassin or Jim from IT being Moriarty. That’s not treating LGBT issues with the respect they deserve in my eyes, and maybe that’s what Moffat is getting at when he describes that approach as ‘trivialising’. The TJLCers express the certainty that such a shock reveal would shake the foundations of society to its core, and it would be such a landmark, water cooler moment, that TV and gay representation, and indeed society itself, would never be the same again. Even if I remotely believed Johnlock were on the cards, I actually think the reverse would happen. The show would be universally derided as having ‘jumped the shark’. Not because its viewers are homophobic or resistant to the idea of gay couples, just because it would genuinely come out of nowhere for them. It would be perceived as pandering to a tiny minority of its fanbase - that is for those few of the general audience who are even aware that this is what some of the fans expect from the show. And for the vast majority of the audience it would come completely out of the blue and be utterly confusing. After all, in their eyes, at no point in the show, have John or Sherlock ever exhibited any kind of sexual attraction to another man. And this is another problem, and I’m sad to say, feeds into the sense of entitlement which some fans do exhibit. ‘Sherlock’ is a massive, mainstream, worldwide hit show. It is very easy to forget that in the little bubble of tumblr where you’re speaking to a self-selected group of people who all feel the same way and all agree with you. But the online fanbase is a tiny minority of the people who watch the show. Threats to ‘desert it’ and expect that to hold any weight with the creators really are meaningless. It’s not a niche, cult show where a fan can expect to stamp her feet and automatically get her wish. To put it bluntly, when your worldwide viewership is in the hundreds of millions, if a few thousand storm off because their ship is not actualised, it really makes no difference. What really makes me sad is that I can’t see any way that this is not going to end horribly for some people. I don’t think Gatiss and Moffat realise that - whatever it may have been to begin with - the fanbase now, or at least the ultra-ardent TJLC part of the fanbase, contains a number of young people who identify as LGBTQIA. For these young people - again predominantly women but also with a number of trans, non-binary and gender queer members - they feel their sexuality, their gender and indeed their whole identity has been helped and in some cases shaped by ‘Sherlock’: specifically by their conviction that Johnlock will be realised in the show. Watching the youtube video TJLCExplained Episode 25 “Why it matters” gives a glimpse into the passion and the desperate certainty these people have. It grieves me to see these bright, passionate, articulate and intelligent young people ploughing their energies into this conspiracy. They’re politically aware: educated in and fired up by gender politics and sexual awareness. So why waste all that energy and passion on two white, middle-class, middle-aged fictional men who - if the conspiracy is correct - are so far into the closet they have been unable to express their true feelings emotionally or sexually for many years to the one person they have shared a home with in all that time? I wish Gatiss and Moffat could see these inspired yet vulnerable people. I wonder what they would think. Would they be gratified that their show has had such a profound and positive effect on their fans? Or would they be sad or bewildered that these young people’s convictions have foundations built on sand? I’m not sure how or when it will end. Of the TJLCers who were fully signed up theorists before last week’s interview dropped, I have observed a couple of reactions. A few of them seem to have now been convinced that it isn’t going to happen and have already expressed disappointment and anger that they were duped or queerbaited. Presumably if they do feel so betrayed, this marks the end of their relationship with the show. However, most of the fan responses I have seen on tumblr have assimilated the new data as ‘yet more lies’ and rejected it, along with anything else that does not fit the conspiracy, whilst at the same time reserving some anger at the way Moffat and Gatiss spoke in order to protect their great ‘lie’. So what happens in five months’ time when Series 4 airs and - as I fully expect - Johnlock doesn’t happen? Will there be an explosion of rage and bitterness which will make last week’s little flare-up look minor in comparison? Or will the conspiracy continue on the basis that Series 5 is the ultimate destination? Or the special after that? Or the one after that? Until sufficient time elapses and everyone moves on? Only time will tell. It just makes me sad that fandom - which should be a positive, happy place - and which, when everything works, means friendships are made and creativity flourishes - can and has become such a toxic environment for both fans and creators. I’m sorry this has been so long and I apologise if I have offended anyone with either what I said or the way I said it. I guess I wanted to lay out my position - to clarify it in my own mind if nothing else!

#tjlc #sherlock #Mofftiss #steven moffat #mark gatiss #tjlc explained #queerbaiting #johnlock

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ragehappysecretsanta · 7 years ago

Text

Raising the Bar

Author: https://gala0apples.tumblr.com/

Recipient: http://samijen.tumblr.com

Summary: AHWU has gotten much more entertaining since they added the mailbag section. It’s pretty hard to beat a bouncy castle. Isn’t it?

Warnings: the rating is NC17. This fic contains under-negotiated kink.

Wordcount: 3223

Ao3 link: http://archiveofourown.org/works/12916137

It’s not like any of the main room are avoidant of mail-day poor life choices. Maybe Geoff-- His soul is so crushed there’s no room left for shenanigans. But Ryan has a truly formidable weapon collection that he likes to juggle at random. Gavin keeps creating games that are half for Olympic hopefuls, half for the kinkily masochistic. Jeremy can admit he’s made a few bad choices when it comes to food. That all said, Jeremy never expected to enter the poor decision realm of whether it’s appropriate to bust a nut at work.

His weakness for Michael is well-known on many levels. The audience knows of it on the level of him never actively proclaiming hate for Michael, which he does with Geoff and Gavin, and in this case the absence of the standard negative is a rare positive. Gavin knows it in that he acts like he’s discovered a cheat code; attempt to bet Michael with half a dozen ludicrous and dangerous activities and a few will trickle down to Jeremy. The deepest level is Geoff being the only one in the office to know he’s bi, and more than that, has feelings about the perpetually single Michael Jones.

It all comes down to chance. If Jack or Ryan had opened it, it probably would have been tossed straight away. If Gavin, another weird against OSHA game. But it’s Michael who opens the small package addressed to the main room. It’s Michael who pulls out a black leather collar. And it’s Michael who decides that, just like the nurse outfit, the boxers at RTX 2015, and the lady killer sweater, this is something that the audience wants to see. For some reason unknown even to God, he puts it on.

Jeremy is electrocuted into dead silence as Michael straps the leather around his own neck. Anything he could say would only draw attention to himself, but it’s not for self-preservation that he doesn’t speak. His brain just drops the feed to his mouth. He doesn’t even blame his poor overloaded think-box. Who could manage coherence with a thin inch of black bisecting Michael’s neck, meeting in the middle of his adam’s apple by way of a large silver ring? It’s just impossible.

Eventually self preservation kicks in. Jeremy retreats from the main camera area to his desk so he can start setting up the transport needed in GTA. It’s basically busywork until Jack and Trevor and Matt get in, but it gives him good reason to be at his computer instead of wandering through the room contributing comments and opening presents like he normally would.

In an instant it happens. Michael looks over and notices that Jeremy is hard before Jeremy can notice that Michael is looking at him. Jeremy turns his chair the moment he sees Michael’s focus of attention, but it’s too late. He’s been outed. To Michael, of all conceivable people. It’s Jeremy’s worst nightmare. Maybe he would have come out eventually. Jon and Mariel both managed with no big fuss. But that would definitely have waited until Jeremy felt like he’d gotten over him, until he had nothing to hide anymore. This is nowhere close to that time.

Michael’s reaction is... not what Jeremy would have expected. First he makes a groan of disgust, and Jeremy feels like he’s covered in lightning. All of his skin is crawling, and an instant headache is coming on. Michael’s going to point out exactly what has disgusted him, and Jeremy’s going to have to go jump off of a bridge. But he’s going to be a goddamn man about it. He twists his chair back to look in Michael’s direction, as do a few of the other guys in the room. If Michael’s going to call him out, he’s going to do it holding eye contact. Except instead Michael throws a hand to his stomach, and curls over himself. “Oh, fuck. Ughh. I’m constipated as fuck.”

“Oh no, boi,” Gavin says.

Michael turns to look Jeremy directly in the eye. “I’m going to the shitter. Might not come out until something happens.”

That means something, right? It has to mean something. Jeremy’s got a life long relationship with Fate saying it’s something, and after Fate has pulled through on the big stuff, like winning bronze at the biggest gymnastics event he ever attended, and a job at Rooster Teeth, Jeremy tries to listen to the sense that certain things are meant to be.

There’s not a lot of stealth ways to directly follow Michael out of the room, but Jeremy tries to brainstorm. He considers for the briefest of moments making a big deal of taking a camera with him like he’s gonna go cause a ruckus somewhere, but that’s rejected. What if Gavin or Trevor wants to join in? Jeremy also rejects the idea of claiming he has a meeting. It just raises too many questions, like what is it that can’t be said by text or slack, that only pertains to him. Not to mention the other party might be asked something and, fairly, be completely clueless and not cover for him. In the end it’s easiest to just leave the room without saying anything at all.

Michael is not actually in the nearest washroom. For a moment Jeremy feels sick. Sad and pathetic. Is he really that desperate that he interpreted Michael needing to have a dump as being all about him? Talk about stereotypical queer, picking up signals that aren’t there from the straight boy. Except, no. If Michael really did just need to crap instead of trading handjobs, he totally would be in one of these stalls, making it reek. The only thing that makes sense is he must have taken advantage of Rooster Teeth being a more multi-platform company than ever. The live action production staff have tiny bathrooms with individual toilets and showers for when the slime or blood or dirt has to go under the collar and past the hems.

With the confidence that only the horny can have, Jeremy knocks on the first locked door and calls out in a fierce whisper “Michael?” Fuck, please let him be right. Please let him be right.

His answer comes in the form of the door clicking as it unlocks. Jeremy’s stomach hurts. He’s on the precipice of success, yeah. But that only means if Michael pulls out a camera to document the joke -or even more terrifyingly, it is queerbait and now he’s going to kick the shit out of him- this is the moment he falls off the cliff into brutal jagged rocks. But there’s no way, right? He’s corrected Gavin’s pronouns for Kdin, he’s laughed at Geoff’s circlejerk stories, he’s never been weird around Max Krumke or Patrick. He can’t be Westboro Church in a New Jersey package. “Michael?”

“Hey,” Michael says in return. This doesn’t look like a set up. Michael seems totally normal, apart from the fetish-wear that Jeremy is having trouble looking away from. The anxiety melts away as quickly as it flared up.

“Was that a summons, or just overshare about your bowels?”

Michael drops onto his knees, light coloured denim totally incongruous with the faux woodgrain linoleum. He arches his head back so the leather cinched around his throat is bared. The light makes the O-ring glint. “What do you think?”

Jeremy is frozen for an eternity, the lifespan of a star. There’s no way this is actually happening, right? Fate guiding him towards goodness or not, this is insane.

Jeremy suddenly thinks of two thick bands of tough leather wrapped around both of Michael’s biceps, the muscles he’s working so hard to enhance. They would pin Michael’s arms to his side, and a strap connecting them across his back would prevent him from struggling for leverage. That mental image is the last straw. Jeremy shrugs off his overshirt, and impatiently tugs the hem out of his jeans so the undershirt can go next. He might not need to get naked right away, but he can at least flash some skin in a way that Michael might be into. He knows barrel chested isn’t a body type for everyone, but considering Michael’s actively working towards it, Jeremy’s feeling pretty confident. Pretty hot.

Michael knee walks a few steps closer until he’s within touching distance. It’s not quite crawling to master, but it’s a hell of a lot more than Jeremy could have reasonably expected. Michael snakes his arms around Jeremy’s hips to grab his ass and pull him in closer. Like he would have resisted. Michael breathes heavily on his groin, face a weight on his upper thigh. Jeremy bites his lips as he feels the noticeable difference in temperature. Even if Michael nopes out in the next second, Jeremy will always have this sensation. He’ll jerk off to Michael’s hot breath gliding over his dick for the next twenty years.

Jeremy runs his fingers through Michael’s hair -not the loose mass of curls it used to be, but it’s still got some texture- before letting his right hand drift lower to Michael’s neck. The collar feels as prominent as it looked. It’s a ridge against Michael’s throat that separates the valleys between normal and kinky. In this moment he feels like he could stand like this for hours, holding Michael in place with a simmer of lust never quite boiling over. That’s the kind of kink, though, that needs a lot of negotiation first. Daydreams aside, Jeremy knows that’s not what’s going on here. He pulls his hand back up and uses both to push Michael’s head away from his junk. Not that he really wants to escape that hot air, but he needs the room to get his pants down.

It’s the work of seconds to get his dick out. Michael’s face looks so good, freckled and waiting, that Jeremy almost hates to bring him back close and obscure it. He’s a little too into this, he thinks. He cares more than Michael does. But he’s dominant, and that feeling of desperation to control and protect is never going to go away, so better to just deal with it. Sooner or later he’ll find someone who wants to be the recipient of all those strong feelings. Until then Jeremy knows he needs to chill the fuck out, and offer only as much dominance as his partner will accept.

Michael doesn’t have much finesse. There’s not a lot of technique, like concentrating on the head, or following the veins. What he does have working in his favour is an apparent lack of reflex. It makes sense, Jeremy figures with the tiny fraction of brain he has that’s not fixated on the experience. How many early days videos are there of Michael eating some horrifying crap and downing it without blinking while people like Burnie and Gav die one bite in? His throat must be hella desensitized. Still, Jeremy doesn’t feel too bad for not making the logic leap of ‘can drink a full bottle of barbeque sauce without gagging’ to ‘can swallow my cock without gagging’. In fact, he’s sort of happy he didn’t waste months daydreaming all iterations of it. Michael’s skill is a pleasant surprise. You could even say a mind fuck, based on the way Jeremy thinks his entire conscious being might fucking combust and burn to nothing. Michael’s nose is against his pubes, literally there, which means he’s easily accepting six inches of cock.

With the last vestiges of brainpower he pulls out. He needs to make sure Michael is okay with this, that it’s not just what he thinks Jeremy wants. What if he actually hates deepthroating, but previous lovers have demanded it? It’s only hot to demand when both parties have agreed to put demanding on the table.

“Should we- shit, fuuuck.” Michael’s chosen to ignore Jeremy’s move of pulling out, he’s gone right back to sucking him. It’s a bit of a struggle to focus, but Jeremy continues his line of thought. “Should we pick safewords or something?” All the porn that Jeremy watches that’s not completely ludicrous and terrible have subs picking them out, even if they never use them.

Michael’s the one to move away this time, just enough so to look Jeremy in the face so he can see his unimpressed raised eyebrows. “I’m blowing you, we’re not dripping hot candlewax up my asshole. We’re fine.”

“Okay. Uh, but-”

Michael doesn’t let him stay on that track any longer. He resumes the blowjob and it cuts all of Jeremy’s coherence. See, the problem -does it count as a problem if it’s awesome?- is this time it’s different. Michael’s started like, humming or talking to himself or something. Jeremy would find it endearing, the way Michael’s never stops talking, if he wasn’t gripping the sink counter trying to not fall over. The vibrations- christ on a dinner plate, Jeremy can feel every single vibration.

He loses control for a moment when he comes. Yet another thing they didn’t lay down guidelines for; fluid exchange. Only in this case Jeremy doesn’t give Michael much of a choice. He slips his fingertips between the collar and Michael’s neck and all but holds him in place. Jeremy can feel Michael’s throat quivering as he swallows. It might be one of the best orgasms of his life, or at least one most true to his kinky fantasies.

Of course, next up is making this as good for Michael as it has been for him. Jeremy’s mind runs wild with scenarios. He wants to tie Michael with both their belts like a really thick shibari and blow him. He wants to make Michael keep blowing him until he gets hard again and can fuck him. He wants Michael to be submissive enough to be okay with not coming because his master did. He wants to spank Jersey Boy until he comes from sensation alone, crying, body confused if it’s in agony or ecstasy. However, none of those have been negotiated for, and Jeremy’s well aware that they’re odd enough choices that he can’t just start doing one.

“Stand up, man.”

Michael does, still licking his lips. Licking up the spunk that overflowed from his open mouth. Honest to god, Jeremy might have to draw this from memory at home tonight. Jeremy unbuckles Michael’s belt and tugs down his jeans. That Michael’s letting him be a little rough isn’t surprising at this point, but it still thrills him.

Barring other, more extreme options, Jeremy decides on a handjob. Who doesn’t like a handjob? He spits into his hand to ease the stroke, but Michael is evidently the kind of guy who produces precome like a mo’fo. Each pass from head to base and back Michael feels a little wetter. As he gets closer to the edge he curls down on himself again, this time a genuine movement. His forehead ends up buried in Jeremy’s shoulder and they have enough height difference that it’s actually a significant bend. For the second time today, Jeremy has to bite the inside of his cheek as he feels Michael’s hot damp breath heat his skin. A newfound kink of his, apparently, though god knows how he’ll search for it on XTube.

Jeremy’s careful about the angle of Michael’s cock when he comes. Thank the Gods of Quick Cleanup, it ends up mostly on the floor instead of on their clothes.

Michael doesn’t seem to be one for a long afterglow. Or maybe it’s just the circumstances. Either way, he’s picking up his jeans far before Jeremy’s ready to stop looking at his hot, spent body. It’s Jeremy’s cue to rinse his hands in the sink and start fixing his own clothes. His undershirt gets stuck to his sweaty skin, and it’s a bitch and a half to tug it into place.

There they are, both standing dressed and ready for life to go on. Except Jeremy’s not completely sure how to make that happen. “What do we do now?”

“Well you should go find some shit to explain why you’ve been gone, and I’m gonna play Crossy Road on my phone for ten minutes to really drive home the illusion of ass-shattering fast food shits.”

“Um, okay. Yeah that makes sense.” Fuck, what did he even say when he left the room? It was less than twenty minutes ago, but his brain has offloaded that memory to better imprint this one.

Michael watches for a minute then continues, “but that’s clearly not what you meant, because you’re still standing here, so, what?”

Man is this not the sweetest post-orgasm pillow talk Jeremy’s ever had. And definitely nothing like how his aftercare kink fantasies go either. “I dunno.”

“Jeremy!” Michael snaps.

“Look, do you want to play video games after work maybe. Or maybe more sex?”

“Depends. Do you want me to keep the collar?”

How in the sweet fucking hell is Jeremy supposed to answer that? The honest answer is Jeremy has spent the last ten years gathering a porn collection where two or more individuals do brutal shit, exert each other enough that it has to end with cuddling and soothing words and spreading arnica over the worst of the bruises. But if Michael doesn’t lean that way -and honestly all accounts point to Michael having more of a dressing up fetish than anything else- it might be off-putting as fuck. Why else would he ask, if it wasn’t a deal maker or breaker?

Jeremy goes with honesty, as clueless as it makes him seem. “I don’t know how to answer that.”

Michael makes a face at him. “Step one. If you want us to do shit, be more fucking decisive.”

Uggggh. Here goes nothing, and by nothing he means his sex life and his future of being happy. “Fine. Have it around your neck and wear something that goes with it, when I come over at nine.”

Michael laughs, a big smirking thrilled chuckle, like it’s the middle of Off Topic and someone just fucked up pouring their beer. “That’s more like it, Lil J.”

Jeremy knows he’s sealed his professional doom. He’s absolutely going to flub a hundred times the rest of the day, every time he thinks about Michael naked except for a collar and wristcuffs thick like the sweat bracelets he always used to wear when Jeremy was still a fan. Or maybe it’ll be leather with leather, the collar and jeans tight enough to show off his ass and a GTA style bomber jacket with no shirt underneath. Or hell, maybe Michael’s got a slutty club kid persona; the collar and a mesh shirt and electric blue short shorts. It seems unlikely, but so did the latex fetish nurse outfit.

“Earth to Lil J. Go the fuck back to work, I’ll be out in a bit.”

Yeah, he’s already doing it. There goes any nice future YouTube comments for today’s uploadable content. Still, it’s a small price to pay for knowing Michael’s got the residue of his come on his tongue until he drinks his next beer, and that that and more will happen tonight.

#Ragehappy #Jeremichael #gala0apples #samijen #rhss17

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oranges8hands · 7 years ago

Note

Regarding this post, "an extremely long meta on tfw's 'gaze'" has anything changed in the show since then, especially regarding s9-10? If you've addressed this before, just send me the links, and thank you for your meta.

re this post. also wow, spn meta, this takes me back :) hmmm. I personally haven’t addressed it. I’ve been racking my brain and skimming my meta rec lists but I don’t really remember someone else doing a count breakdown like that for TFW’s “gaze”. I’d assume @elizabethrobertajones may know, if such a thing exists. I’d honestly assume one doesn’t, just because of three (kind of contradictory) reasons: 1. if that post was basically summarizing that the Team does not focus on Dean’s emotional needs (esp because they are not supernatural in nature), arguably S9/10 was all about Dean’s needs (esp because of the MoC); 2. there’s no TFW anymore; 3. its literally the same story, repeating like the dead horse it is, so they can’t change the gaze.

1. This one I kind of consider self-explanatory. The big, two-season drawn out arc was about Dean, his issues (from bloodlust to daddy’s brainwashing and back around again), and the inconsistent Mark of Cain. Now, I haven’t run the numbers (and sorry, am not interested enough in spn to go do so), so maybe in terms of actual dialogue there’s less focus than I remember there being, but in general the narrative focused a lot on Dean’s emotional landscape being front and center. Sam was afraid of and for Dean, that was a lot of his emotional beats. Cas was afraid for and in pain because of Dean, that was a lot of his emotional beats. Crowley was increasingly invested in Dean, that was a lot of his completely unnecessary emotional beats. So in terms of discussions, a lot of them are focused on Dean and bringing him back to (or in Crowley’s case, dragging him away from) his humanity, shorthand for love. We have out-loud conversations about other members loving him/missing him. (Maybe its still unbalanced - no one shouts about wanting to be loved as much as Crowley, though it subtextually becomes about wanting Dean’s love specifically - but its there.) If the post is about wanting “Dean to be gazed at for any damn substantial length of time and depth of focus in a concentrated group effort by the other members of TFW that lasts longer than an episode”, then the arc during S9/S10 delivered. With shit writing, but it delivered.

Except, the original post made a point about “how the individual relationships—through good times and bad, hurtful feelings and comforting ones—feed into each other to bring out incredible texture and give enormous meaning to the singular unit of togetherness that Dean once named ‘Team Free Will’” and the problem is… there is no TFW. 2. Though fandom often used TFW to refer to Dean, Sam, and Cas, that post specifically included Bobby in it, and there’s been no Bobby replacement. There could have been, but Kevin was not invited into the inner circle (and was then killed), Charlie was mostly separated from the main plot (and was then killed), and while they force-feed brought Crowley into a main character position, even at their height of shoving bringing Crowley into the plot/group, I would argue it wasn’t necessarily as a team member but as a subtextual!lover/shitty father to Dean only, and competition to Cas and Sam. So there isn’t really a “group” to discuss the emotional well-being of another member anymore. There’s Sam and Cas talking about Dean, and Dean and Cas not talking about Sam, and Sam and Dean forgetting Cas exists referring to Cas, but the closest we get to team discussions about another member is with Charlie near the end of her run, and they kill her off immediately. And even if we just include TFW to refer to Dean, Sam, and Cas, the show no longer actually lets Cas be a member of it? Like the show stopped letting Dean and Cas occupy space together, apparently answering the queerbaiting from earlier with a resounding No Homo (Yes Rape), but because their answer was in the form of a scorched-earth policy, that means the Dean and Cas friendship also suffered horribly. Like, they got them together for the annual destiel-baiting cycle moments, but overall Cas was finding himself/his grace (or whatever) and Dean was expanding his bloodlust (or whatever), and then they’d have some scenes to remind us Cas loves Dean more than anything (including himself) and Dean would shed his one manly tear of angst, and then they’d go their separate ways again. And by keeping them apart in more and more outlandish ways, it builds into this idea that Dean is not allowed to show he cares about Cas beyond microexpressions, since his general actions - like never helping Cas with his f-ing grace - suggest otherwise.And then, there are very few and far between scenes of all three of them together? Cas and Sam spent a lot of time talking about Dean, and there’s the Cas and Dean sightings, and there’s way way way too much Dean and Sam, but all three of them together? There wasn’t that many, and especially not that many that wasn’t heavily related to the sub-arc [changing Dean into a human/stopping him from going demon] and as the original post explains:

Characters don’t become closer when they do plot things together: hunting, fighting, planning, researching, etc. That is work, circumstances, necessity. That’s not the basis for a bond, for that sense of another person in one’s life as “home.” Characters become closer when they are human beings with one another, sharing human feelings, and what makes those relationships the beating heart of TFW is that they gather together and don’t leave one another hanging when one person is in crisis and another person is desperate to help them. So, if everyone’s primary relationship is with Dean, then if you take Dean out, what are you left with? A collection of related parts that have no center, no core.

They can’t have Dean and Cas in the same room because of destiel, and they can’t have Dean and Sam separated for too long because Carver!Era doubled-down on their co-dependency, and they don’t have a lot of Sam and Cas because they don’t want Cas in episodes at all, because neither of them thinks of the other as a priority over Dean [though I’d also argue they show a lot of textual concern over each other’s mental states], and Crowley is in a lot of group settings but because of plot reasons and/or his desire for Dean not as a group member, and they killed off everyone else. Now arguably, there’s Jody, still alive, and who the show does somewhat treat similar to Bobby (she has a home base, she gets an episode focused on her like a main character, she acts as an emotional sounding board for the boys), but while she has emotional moments and strong ties to both Sam and Dean… Cas, not so much. Or, like, at all. (IIRC Jody didn’t even learn about angels/demons until Claire comes to live with her, and that knowledge happens off-screen.) But we see Bobby and Cas argue, work with each other, complain to each other, distrust each other, etc. We do not see Jody and Cas interact, which makes her as the 4th member of TFW difficult to see. [She does however interact with Crowley, in the sense they went on a date and he tried to kill her. Which was never actually explained to her. Just, mentioning that.]Anyway - and seriously I loathe writing this sentence - if there is a TFW and fourth member, its Crowley. He even becomes the go-to answer dude, and gets to occupy a father space. Except like I said, there isn’t enough for there to be a TFW still. The promise of found family gets one cute bunker scene and then Charlie dies. There’s no us vs the world foundation because most of the time in these two seasons its Dean (and Crowley) vs Sam and Cas (when he’s around.) 3. Which doesn’t really matter because this show has never met a parallel it didn’t drive into the ground. Like, by the time S9/S10 rolled around, they’ve had so many parallel seasons and villains, its become a patchwork of old ideas and stale retakes. This show is built on both the boys being world-destroying worried over each other, and treating each other like shit on a stick. They can’t turn Dean’s gaze away from Sam because the show always, always goes back to the brothers-only foundation, and they can’t have more people be permanent members of TFW because the show always, always goes back to the brothers-only foundation, and they can’t actually address anything and move the characters into a healthy direction (which would involve talking about things, esp their feelings) because the show always, always goes back to the brothers-only foundation, so… what’s the point? The numbers won’t prove anything, whether they show TFW’s gaze on Dean more or less than it used to be, because Dean is still (always) going to feel unloved/unwanted, and nothing Sam or Cas (or - jfc I can’t believe I have to type this - Crowley) do is going to change that. Dean is the POV character for the show, and has been since arguably midway into S1, and the underlining character trait the writers will never permanently address is his (disturbing) focus on/control of Sam, so even in scenes when Sam himself is a nonentity, focusing on Dean refocuses on Sam (while also not really caring about Sam at all, this show is weirdly skilled at this contradictory balance.) Basically the show has written themselves into a corner where they have to fix their foundation, or they can only repeat the same tired story lines (though usually with more rape), and they seem to consistently choose to do the latter. tl;dr: so, uh, my incredibly long-winded answer to your question is while the numbers may have changed, and the structure of the TFW may have changed (or become nonexistent), the other characters can never truly gaze at Dean long, or the show would have to actually address its foundational problems (Dean’s view of Sam, their unhealthy relationship), and that means changing the show’s structure, which is a level of creativity/skill the writers do not possess.

#spn #a and a #wish I tagged characters/posts better on this blog #//#elizabethrobertajones is still into spn & has done re-watches (recently?ish?) so she may know the mathematical answer to your question #I unfortunately do not #but I did notice someone recently reblogged the post with 'old meta but nothing has changed' so... that may be your answer too #also I tend to pepper my spn meta posts with links but they aren't like required reading or anything #[not that any of this is]#also I feel like I should warn you - I mean totally feel free to follow me! I like followers! I like talking to them!#I'm cool talking abt spn! - but on this and my other blog I don't post a lot of [*cough* or any really] spn *meta* anymore #186282397milespersec

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admhawthorne · 7 years ago

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Pulled Thoughts Regarding Supergirl’s Cast’s SDCC Behavior

I posted a little about this on Twitter this morning, and I’ve been talking both online and offline to a few friends about this throughout today, and I wanted to pull together everything I’ve been saying about this situation and how it applies to the big picture of media with regard to LGBTQ+ representation and fan treatment.

This is probably going to read more like an essay than my typical rants, but I’ve been in fandoms for a long time, and I’ve been blessed (if you can call it that) to see how things work from both the network’s side and the fandom’s side, so I’m going to throw in my two cents here.

But, just in case, the TL;DR for all of this is simple: Nothing will get better until everyone on all sides are educated on how things work and why things should and/or shouldn’t be said or done starting with networks teaching their actors and showrunners how to appropriately engage with their fandoms.

The SDCC interview heard around the internet is, as I’ve said before, a perfect example of why actors, showrunners, and those who represent shows/films need to be schooled on how to answer questions and requests appropriately.

Even if an actor doesn’t support a specific romantic pairing, knows that pairing will never happen, or isn’t personally supportive of the fan base who supports a specific pairing, I feel they have an obligation to maintain a certain amount of professionalism when asked or given the opportunity to speak on that subject.

They are there to do a job, and it is imperative they do it well, which means answering questions and interacting with the media and fans in such a way as to be attuned to people in general well enough to understand what will cause potential lashing out from segments of their fan base. They should all possess a basic understanding of what not to say or do.

It’s simple Corporate Representation 101.

Say whatever you want on your own time and your own dime. Campaign for a conservative party, protest to save the whales, or donate your time to fight for the rights of a traditional family. However, on the company’s dime, you should be diplomatic. It is entirely possible to disagree with something regarding the show and/or fan base’s desires for the show and still manage to discuss your job without coming across as insensitive and destructive.

I’ve seen this insensitivity and destruction happen time and again with actors, showrunners, and the like who truly hate a particular fan favorite pairing or they don’t like something the fan base has been very vocal they’d like to see happen, and the actors/showrunners/etc.’s reactions are very disappointing.

Their job is to support their show/film and to keep that show/film from incurring a bad reputation. Their job isn’t to lash out and act foolishly because they’re tired of the fan base.

If they don’t like their fans, they need to consider retirement. If they don’t like their character, then they can do what the rest of us who don’t like our jobs do. They can suck it up and wait until they can move on to a different project. It’s not difficult to sidestep undesirable questions during press junkets and conventions. All it takes is a little well practice pivoting to move the interview or conversation along to something else to keep things moving, and it’s equally not that difficult to refrain from saying things that will inevitably hurt a show/film’s reputation and/or credibility.

Conversely, it’s equally imperative that fans understand who has control of what.

Even if an actor, showrunner, or show writer supports a specific thing, it doesn’t mean they can do anything about that thing. Their influence is limited. Even showrunners have a box they must work within that is created by networks, sponsors, and production houses.

Most importantly, actors have no say at all. They have a script they are contractually obligated to film. That’s all. If they support a specific pairing or thing for the project they’re currently working on knowing that pairing or thing isn’t going to happen, then they have to go along with whatever is in the script anyway. There’s no choice there, just like you have to do what the boss says when he calls a last minute meeting ten minutes before work ends.

You do what you have to do to make your paycheck.

Therefore, lashing out at actors when something doesn’t happen on your show is not only foolish but destructive. A fandom’s biggest advocates are always the actors, but, if a fandom has a small group of very vocal people who consistently belittle, demean, and threaten those actors, it should come as no surprise that the actors will eventually become bitter and jaded about whatever section of the fandom those destructive fans are coming from.

It’s human nature to both generalize and to start to hate groups you perceive as abusive. That’s factual. Is it fair? No. Does it happen? All the time.

Actors are people doing a job. They don’t control how the network advertises their show. They don’t have any say in the narrative created by the PR teams. They rarely have a say in how their character is written unless they are lucky enough to have showrunners/writers who are willing to entertain the actors’ thoughts, but, in the end, actors are puppets to the script put together by writers/showrunners who, themselves, are writing said scripts based upon direction given by networks and production studios.

If fans want to change the narrative they see on the screen, then we must start with the networks and put our focus on where the money is. Namely, the sponsors.

You want change? Hurt their bottom line, and change will come. You want representation? Stop feeding money to shows and franchises that don’t give it to you, and, yes, that may mean putting actors you love out of work. Consider that they have a chance to find work in a project that has the representation you’re looking for.

Networks are there for a profit. They go where the money is, which is why they queerbait both in show advertisements and in the shows themselves. Queerbaiting is profitable. It has an immediate short-term effect of getting the curious to watch the show to see what is actually happening. They anticipate it will cause audiences to keep watching either because they can string the hopeful along or because the others watched to see what was happening and stayed because they liked the show.

Queerbaiting is never really about getting LGBTQ+ market share. It’s about getting the controversy coverage for free adverting so they can pull in the core demographic they really want.

In the long-term, it makes for effective marketing, and, once the LGBTQ+ community gets fed up and leaves, there’s very little impact on the show’s overall profits. When you use a marginalized group of people for the sake of sensationalizing a project to get ratings and those marginalized people leave but the others remain, the effect on the show is marginal.

When a minority leaves a show’s viewing audience, their voice leaving the crowd of support is a lot like a mosquito bite on an elephant’s behind. It’s noticeable, a little inconvenient in the moment, but quickly forgettable.

However, the point is that no one should forget the minorities. In fact, it is the majority’s moral obligation to remember the minority, who cannot always create a big enough voice on their own to be heard.

That’s why it is so very important that actors who are in shows/films that have fans who are asking them to help support their call for representation in those shows/films/franchises need to keep in the back of their mind the fact that, much too often in media, the minorities have been used as the butt of jokes, to show examples of how not to be, to be used as pawns, to be examples of undesirables, and, overall, to simply be the negative ‘other.’

People in marginalized groups develop sensitivity to being continuously labeled as ‘undesirable’ by a media that consistently represents the majority and actors who forget that ‘just a joke’ is sometimes the last straw when you’re always the butt end of ‘just a joke.’

Being invalidated by people you admire who live in the public eye can be soul crushing, and invalidation comes in a myriad of ways. Often, that invalidation comes in the form of an actor who has had enough of being berated on social media by a small but vocal group of abrasive and abuse fans who are belittling the actor over something the actor has no control over or interest in.

The actor is lashing out their frustrations, or the showrunner/writer is locking down on something they are creating and are done with demands being put upon them to change the direction of their artistic vision.

The problem with that is that, once something is out there, it’s open to people’s interpretation of that piece of art. That’s the beauty of creating something designed to be consumed by the public; people add their own personal life filters to the work and make it their own.

However, that means that the creators of that work have to accept the only narrative they can control is their own, and fans have to accept that their input, though appreciated, doesn’t have to be followed. Again, if the fans don’t like what they see, then it’s time to take a stand and move on to projects they do like, even if that means leaving beloved characters and actors behind.

Fans, actors, writers, showrunners, and producers are in the most emotionally abusive five-way relationship ever. Everyone wants something from everyone else, everyone thinks they know how to get what they want, and everyone is trying to manipulate the narrative and the situation to get what they want at the expense of leaving the others behind in the dust.

If we really want to make this better, we have to be better. Fans have to STOP making threats and harassing people. The media has to learn where the fine line actually is between acceptable and not. Fans have to put their money and interest into projects that support what they want to see, and fans have to be able to live with missing out on aspects of media they love because that media isn’t supporting the fans as the fans would like. Media has to learn when it’s time to grow, and fans have to learn who to focus their ire at.

It’s a two-way street, and, right now, we’re all playing a big game of chicken waiting to see who is going to turn away first. Will fans throw it in and accept what’s being fed to them, or will networks learn to change their programming lineups?

I’m not sure, honestly, which direction it will all go, but I do know this is a cycle that keeps repeating, and, to make it stop, we have to start with some basic education. I feel part of that basic education is teaching actors what not to say/do during press junkets and conventions and to teach them how to steer conversations gracefully away from topics that could end poorly for their shows/films and leave their fans hurt and upset.

The first step is to admit we have a problem and offer a starting solution. I’m doing both, but I wonder if anyone will follow suit?

#supergirl #fandom #rant

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elsa-of-arrendelle · 7 years ago

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Dear Nonny,

So, in response to an anon who somehow magically took offense to my last post, this is my answer. Didn’t post the actual “ask” cause I avoid having swearing on this blog whenever possible.

Yeah, no one has to justify their ships to me. I was hoping some Sabriel shippers would talk to me about why they ship so I could better understand (Shippers tend to love talking about why they ship something) but I got you trying to make me feel guilty or wrong instead for some reason. I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the fandom if you were unaware of some of the blowouts in SPN fandom history over Destiel, but here you go and this is going to be long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKnf_c27T4g

^^ Here’s the big one that people freaked out over and called Jensen homophobic for (cause pointing out that a ship is fan-made means you’re insulting gay people now). And even though he’s given the same response to these questions, people keep asking and getting upset because HE’S ACTUALLY REFUSING TO QUEERBAIT/GIVE FALSE HOPE WHEN FANS DEMAND IT.

https://youtu.be/tACYrKGx_MA?t=554

Start here to 11:23 ^^^ It’s about Sam and Dean. Jensen doesn’t say it’s about Castiel, doesn’t even mention Castiel because the show is about brothers and family and doing what’s right no matter the odds. This is followed shortly by him shutting down a “Destiel or Cas/Dean” question succinctly and with no room for rational misinterpretation to his feelings on the subject.

As for the “Underbear” incident, for me, that’s a matter of consent. Jensen acted of his own accord to be goofy with a friend who didn’t believe he had weird underwear on that day. Writers making Destiel canon when Jensen has expressed on and off screen that Dean doesn’t feel that way about Castiel would be contractually obligating him to support a Fannon ship that he doesn’t feel his character would be comfortable with. For the role in Blonde (since that’s the only queer role I’ve encountered with him), his character was based off a real person who truly had that preference and he accepted that as part of his role. Making Destiel canon now would alter the character to a new preference when he’s been portrayed for years as a heterosexual man.

I ask you, on this point, if a straight ship centered on a straight character and a strictly gay or lesbian character became popular, would you demand that their sexuality be changed to support the most popular ship? If you can’t say yes to this, then what you really care about is gay representation over the actual storyline. And even then? How much love and support was given to Charlie? What about freaking Chuck being portrayed as Bi? How much love is given to any openly gay character? If you don’t support the positive representation that you have, the writers won’t change an already popular character’s orientation to appease you.

What’s scary is how much Destiel and Cockles shippers do to manipulate events to “support” their ship like altering photos to be only with Misha and Jensen. Example 1.

Example 2.

Example 3.

And seeing these on their own would make people question why the ship isn’t canon if the actors themselves are willing to be so close. I get that. It doesn’t make sense if all you saw was the photoshopped pictures and the slowed-down gifs of eye contact. With only those pictures to work with, yeah. It totally looks like queer-baiting or mocking those fans when it doesn’t appear more often on screen.

Most, if not all, of the queer-baiting, is simply misinterpreted snippets from actors who are scared of hurting shippers or actually made-up quotes from obsessive Destiel shippers who spread it and upset everybody because we don’t know where it came from but we accept it for some reason. Anything else is usually meant in a joking manner that people take seriously even when characters are clearly being sarcastic. Typed quotes take away voice inflections.

There’s also direct avoidance of anything canon that makes Destiel problematic but I’m just tired of the mental acrobatics of making the show about Dean and Cas’s relationship rather than Sam and Dean’s brotherhood and quest to fight evil.

Jensen’s not a writer on the show, that’s correct. If the writers are responsible for Queerbaiting, that’s on them. But you do realize that everyone on Tumblr just LOVES to read between the lines so intensely that everything has meaning when that’s not always going to be the case. Friendships get turned into the most popular OTP over someone’s interpretation of a scene and then other people begin to look for it. It’s something your brain does naturally if something is pointed out or even suggested to you, you tend to look for it more even if it’s not there.

User Postmodernmulticoloredcloak wrote a massive post on every freaking detail of “Regarding Dean” to make it sexual (from the freaking bunny to watching scooby doo) and tie it all to Castiel who wasn’t even in the episode. At this point, I’d like to remind that “Regarding Dean” involves Dean at his most childlike and innocent. He’s losing memories, he forgets words and watches cartoons, is over enthusiastic about cool things compared to adults... And this shipper tries to make that ...Sexual...If you can’t recognize that some shippers have gone too far with their detail-sniffing and obsession with the gay sex factor of the ship, nothing I can say will help you. People declare clothing, food choices, drinks and more to be evidence of Dean being bisexual. It’s insane and it’s an insult to actual members of the LGBTA community to claim that these can be used to gauge the sexuality of a person.

Another way to interpret that statement (since your context was loose) would be that Jensen doesn’t make the call because he’s not a writer and the writers can make him do anything that they write. What that is saying is that you’re more okay with contractually obligating an actor to go against his feelings and knowledge of his character than for your ship to not become canon.

Someone else wrote this better “ [Jensen] has portrayed Dean for last twelve years, this man knows Dean inside and out, this man defined and made Dean Winchester a legend—this man is Dean. The writers may have outlined the character, but Jensen, Jensen becomes Dean, Jensen is Dean. Do you really think that Jensen is not qualified to talk about Dean? Do you think that his thoughts do not matter? Do you think that Jensen is lying and overcompensating? If yes, then I have to pity you.“ (user: deanisdarkness). Their whole post on this is actually on point. http://deanisdarkness.tumblr.com/post/156250200937/isnt-it-interesting-how-the-guy-who-tells-the

So, yeah. The queer-baiting issue lies more with fans in denial about actors and characters saying straight out that it’s not going to be canon, and instead spreading tampered evidence to fellow shippers than the actual writers intentionally messing with fans.

I love Misha. I love Jensen. I love Jared. I love the show.

The fandom has a lot of issues of hate-mail, shipwars, and, frankly, porn through both imagery and fanfiction which I find disgusting. I focus on the family foundation and the fandom family with the actors, fans, and those involved with the show.

Once again, I don’t care if you ship Destiel. Or Wincest (although that one’s still creepy to me and I’m allowed that opinion as well, but hey at least they don’t forget that this show is about Sam and Dean). Or Sabriel. I care if you’re an honest person and if you’re going too far to promote your ship by doing things like forging evidence and sending hate to other fans.

#supernatural #spn #anons #i don't ship destiel #winchesters #dean #cas #sam

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