#and im not interested in portraying it perfectly for Everyone bc its not possible

[whumpshaped]

can you tell us a bit about seth's mental health/disorders, diagnosed or not?

he just has npd in my head. and some bad trauma from his childhood, couldve manifested in cptsd? idk. his npd was def a result of trauma.

theyre just good at reading ppl and being charming and luring them in and then manipulating them. seth is like... the self aware narcissist that uses the self awereness to be like Yes i Am better than everyone im fucking GOD im untouchable these humans would never know what hit em. he Knows hes hurting ppl. it used to be "by accident" almost, bc it was the only way he could keep ppl by his side or whatever. now its fully on purpose and they have no intention of ever changing or entertaining the notion that it couldve been trauma-borne (unless its to invoke sympathy, but lets be real, he'd never disclose he had any sort of pd bc of the stigma) bc thats "embarrassing"

i want to be immensely clear when i say i dont believe in "narc abuse" or that ppl w npd or any sort of pd are inherently bad ppl. i have pds, one of which is npd. the way seth is is MY experience and MY self insertion and MY bad traits lumped into one oc who does horrible shit not bc of his pd but bc hes just shitty. but his thought process and his emotions are sometimes dulled or heightened bc of his pd. they do go batshit when they feel humiliated or mocked in a way ppl without npd Wouldnt. but most of what he does? anyone can do that if they were shitty enough yknow, with or without pd.

[cviperfan]

Okay so partially motivated by how many references there were in SPoP and largely bc it's been in my backlog for years and I remembered the whole thing got uploaded to youtube a while ago, I finally got around to watching Revolutionary Girl Utena for the first time so time for some hot takes

2 clarify I did see the movie about around 2000 which was my introduction to the series, and I did see like 1 episode back in anime club (over a decade ago now tbh) but for the most part I went into this with only a vague sense of the ending and offhand knowledge of a few of the weird comedy episodes so this was mostly a blind watch

Before getting into #spoilers I will say that this ended up being an easy Top 5 and that it's definitely still worth watching (fair warning for the very frequent rape and incest (and sometimes both)), especially if you've somehow also avoided most of the context of this show like me, and it really is one of the rare Nothing Else Like It kind of show (though it has roots in older shoujo like Rose of Versailles and modern stuff like Revue Starlight have picked up its lede)

Okay spoilers from here on

I really only kinda have vague memories of the more knightly take on Utena from the movie so Series!Utena having this powerful Dumb Jock Energy threw me

Like she's out here invoking the Air Bud Rule from minute one

This bit where Akio is going on about some Important Life Lesson thing and she's just fuckin

crab walking im

what a hero i love her

I have always kinda been more partial to shoujo than shounen bc the sense of like emotional urgency and the heightened exaggerated feelings are just more compelling to me narratively and what Utena does spectacularly is really drive that to fucking 11 and it permeates every aspect of the show

Like the melodrama of it all is so shameless and it's so committed to letting its visuals and music drive the mood and emotional intensity of its stakes that they kind of speak for themselves and demand to be taken on their own terms rather than having clear or rigid interpretations

Like it's kind of a situation of "yes most of what you're seeing ties into the show's bigger themes and characterization but also you can just vibe to the spectacle as well" like even when it's not on the Dueling Arena there's a theatricality underlying everything that pairs perfectly with the spirit of shoujo even as it... not necessarily contradicts it, but challenges it in some ways and also wants to coexist with it?

And I think that's the interesting thing how it wants to tackle some of these arch concepts tied into the genre while also being deeply intertwined with it.  Like it really is a Product Of Its Time in so many ways but it also feels somehow timeless and transgressive in others even now?

Like part of me would be interested to see a remake that took into account 23 years of conversation about how much perceptions of gender and sexuality have changed but at the same time would it lose some essential part of itself in that transition?  idk potentially

Also lbr a hypothetical remake wouldn't even attempt to revise anything it would just redo it thus making it pointless

So I know this has been a thing that's been brought up before but seeing it play out dang RGU and NGE really are just companion pieces to each other huh

Subverting the themes and narrative arcs of their respective genres, mysterious quiet girl who's directly the key to everything, the ritual of action setpieces rendered as Actual Ritual in the story, banger OP, comphet ruining everyone's lives

Also they really don't have much in common comparatively but I'm definitely seeing pieces of Utena in Kill la Kill too?  Particularly how Mako's arc feels like a fleshing out and expansion from the archetype divergence Wakaba got in that one ep (I can't believe klk was the utena/wakaba au fanfic)

Speaking of which damn he is a sleazy bastard and a gross predator but ngl Akio can Get It he and Ragyo are basically the same character and I guess this is just my type apparently???? oops

Like I'm recognizing how like really awful he is but also you really can't blame Utena for crushing on him he is super hot and charming

aside i lost it at the audacity of "well even tho i am a man like twice your age (AT LEAST) and took advantage of the situation and also i am clearly not the type to take no for an answer since you didn't reject me you're basically just as bad as me" bruh

The Black Rose Arc is... interesting bc like it borders on superfluous with how it resolves and yet the introduction of a "monster of the week" type power rangers element specifically built to expand on the secondary cast is a pretty inspired choice

again my primary point of introduction to the series was the movie which is basically a remix of the Student Council arc so when I got to 12 I was like wth are they gonna fill the rest of this with? WELP

What I really like about it is that usually this kind of setup-- the 'character is faced with their dark inner thoughts they shy away from and they become a short-term enemy' deal-- ends with the char in question coming to terms with this and overcoming it to become a better person

but here it's just like... they lose and then they just gotta... sit with that, forever.  Like it doesn't really change the status quo of their relationships w/ utena or the others but it does just stick around for them and now the audience knows that about them too.  like sometimes you just can't take that shit back.

Utena's relationship to queerness, having heard about it tangentially for years but seeing it play out now is also interesting bc while in the grand scheme it doesn't feel necessarily any more ahead of its time than something like Cardcaptor Sakura there is a casualness to it that's distinct

Like for the most part it's either kind of the tangential fluff that even then was part of shoujo as a standard but then there's also stuff like the Akio/Touga or Touga/Saionji hinting or Kozue's casual pass at Anthy in addition to the maintext Juri/Shiori push-pull and ofc the subtext-but-maintext Utena/Anthy threads

I wanna take a moment to talk about Juri bc of how kind of in the spirit of the show itself it plays things both with and against the grain with her

Like she's a Tragic Lesbian which is nothing new but usually this character type (and Distinctively Lesbian characters in general) in anime/manga tend to be portrayed as being very predatory, invasive and either played for laughs or to repulse the audience, so the degree of empathy RGU shows her in 97 is rare to see even now.  

Like there is a "safeness" to her bc of how unattainable Shiori is (though their arc ends in a decidedly ambiguious way), but it doesn't really feel like she's getting the short end of the stick over the more straight-leaning characters bc arguably all of the relationships here are defined by an aspect of chasing the unattainable, echoing Utena's own quixotic search for her Prince, and her choosing to remain closeted feels realistic *especially because* of the surrounding context of how heteronormative the world she exists in is.  Like the character is aware of that and is navigating it in a way that feels honest

Speaking of which it's interesting how the reveal of Juri's pining for Shiori in Ep 7 echoes the bigger reveal of Utena/Anthy bc of how it plays up this heterocentric love triangle or at least it seems to be but then the cards are on the table and no that's really not what it is at all, and it feels significant that after spending most of the series naively oblivious to Juri’s feelings and what she wants out of a relationship with Shiori that Utena finally Gets It in Ep 37

Is it a coincidence Juri actually gets to be the one to point it out? No

Speaking of triangles big ups to the Ruka/Juri/Shiori one honestly bc of how hard it commits to the unknown third result of a LT where absolutely no one comes out happy and it actually works even with the handicap of Ruka basically coming out of nowhere just for these two episodes

Like all three of them want the one person who's absolutely never gonna love them back and that's just rough buddy and isn't that kinda the show in a nutshell

So the thing that struck me about Utena/Anthy and how it plays out is how subtle it really is.  And that does make sense bc while f/f teasing/subtext again was part of shoujo before it's quite a different thing for the heroine to ultimately reject her 2 male love interests and choose a life with her female best friend, esp in nineteen ninety seven

Like I think you can argue that Ep 12 feels like The Moment where What Their Relationship Is, Definitely shifts and that possibility is suddenly there, and then it doesn't come back in a big way until the ending but there are tiny glimpses throughout where you can see that working in the background if you’re really paying attention

Small things like Anthy's flashes of unspoken jealousy, Utena fretting over her even when she's in bed with Akio, and part of that is coming from going in with a knowledge of what the endgame is and keeping an eye out for it.  I can hardly imagine being a viewer during the og broadcast and then ep 34 comes and suddenly the intent is made clear and our understanding of the inciting incident gets all flipped turned upside down

And to a modern viewer I can get coming into this for the first time and being frustrated at just how close to the chest it gets played, but that's also kind of the only way it gets to happen at that point in time?  But I think it ultimately is effective and vital to their individual arcs and dovetails nicely with the themes of the show

Like I remember hearing that original manga creator Chiho Saito was pretty against their paired ending, but with a lot of convincing from Ikuhara ultimately came around to it, and it's hard to imagine the anime's ending working any other way and being nearly as impactful

And there is something really beautiful about the bucking against the established idea of yuri relationships being a childish concept that gets left behind in order to 'grow up' actually becoming the impetus of their own journeys into adulthood and eventually back to each other, and it’s hard not to feel a little disappointed that for this Bold Step and declaration for the future that RGU takes that while yuri is more common than ever it largely continues to exist within the realm of schoolgirls and something to be left behind in adolescence like for RGU’s faults and shortcomings it saw this world of possibility in moving forward, while the genre largely elected to stand still

And it really speaks to either the timelessness of the show or how much the queer experience has remained constant that even with a tragic ending, that hope, or rather the promise of their reunion, feels bold and defiant and genuinely uplifting even now

Like the moment where just before they reach out to each other one final time, and their voices as children speak out to each other, as if finally fulfilling a promise they barely remember, I really did just start ugly crying

Lastly some assorted closing thoughts--

-Touga?  Punk.  Guy really takes advantage of Utena's whole prince thing to manipulate her, ends up losing to her in the rematch and then fucks off to mope for like AN ENTIRE SEASON then pops back up "oh yea im in love with her literally nothing else about my behavior has changed tho" like lmao you tried i guess

-Also i know Touga's design is p stock standard bishounen ojou-sama type but god this is all i can think about when I see him

- Green Touga Saionji is a bitch-ass motherfucker but like he at least tried more than anyone else so uh that's something I guess?????

Like the guy clearly has some unresolved feelings about Touga so i'm inclined to be sympathetic bc wow poor choice my dude but also... bitch-ass motherfucker

-Nanami really went through this thing for me where it's like... she's a brat and a shitty person but it's also hard to really dislike her bc she does get what she deserves most of the time and also she gets kinkshamed more than most of the cast despite none of them really having a high ground over her lol

-Miki did nothing wrong (aside from like the implied incest but that's also like... half the relationships in this show uh)

sidenote I can completely see the notable excess of Incest Subtext/Maintext being intended as like... A Thing to comment on how common it is within shoujo and also tying in to like the bigger themes of Growing Up bc the idea that you’re chasing after your own damn siblings betrays some freudian inability to mature or whatever but tbqh it doesn’t always feel like the show knows the line between commenting on this and indulging in it and RGU is very indulgent by its own nature so I really can’t blame people put off by the show as a whole bc this is an area where RGU is largely indistinguishable from its genre peers

-Juri really did nothing wrong tho also props for having the best duels

-FUCK SHIORI THO for eel 

so obviously i have not seen the show up to now but I've been in yuri circles for a long time so I knew about Juri/Shiori and my perception of it had always been "oh it's one of those kinda messy with complicated feelings" kinda ships where the drama is a big part of the appeal and that's true but like

the actual nature of it I did not realize up to now and OH SHIORI'S REALLY THAT BITCH HUH

So not only does she date that one anonymous guy specifically to spite Juri unaware she doesn't actually like him BUT THEN WHEN THEY GET REUNITED SHE'S JUST LIKE LOL IT DIDNT MATTER BUT HEY WE COOL RIGHT *AND THEN* when she finds out about Juri's feelings she's like HELL YEA I CAN HANG THIS OVER HER HEAD FOREVER FUCK HER

***AND THEN*** when she gets some karma after Ruka dumps her ass she airs her dirty laundry out in front of EVERYBODY like Juri hasn't been dealing with this shit like an absolute champ the whole time like?????

Like ok i get that there's the sad longing drama there and usually that's my jam and the show itself seems to end on kind of an ambiguous note and the follow-up manga from this year seems to leave it as kind of a "maybe" but I'm sorry get Juri a better GF 2020 she deserves better

I saw some Juri/Wakaba going through the tumblr tag for the show and honestly that's some big brain shit I'm here for it

Also now knowing exactly how this dynamic operates it really makes that Jasper/Lapis reference pic one of the SU crew drew of them read very.... interestingly???????? (tho Lapis' design reads a lot closer to Kozue and that's probably a closer personality analogue too)

-I love that thing in ep 37 where the whole SC is just very casually like hey utena if the whole revolutionizing the world thing with anthy doesn't work out uhhh call me im free haha just kidding unless...? lmao

-I'm pretty uninclined to try to pin precise sexuality HCs to characters for series this old where the ambiguity is part of how its danced around like partly coming from my own experience I'm inclined to read Utena as bi but that really is just coming from me?

But on the other hand literally every time a guy is like "i love you utena come be happy with me and we can love each other forever" she's like "k" after having left them on read for a day and disconnects from them entirely so lesbian going through comphet is a pretty valid read i think lol

-Lastly I think it’s pretty interesting but validly frustrating how fast and loose the show’s relationship with dream logic and non-traditional storytelling really is like when the shadow girls show up I was like “oh this is a greek chorus thing and it’s meant to reflect on the themes of the episode” (or uh in the case of exactly Ep 29 to break from tradition and explicitly tell us what a characters deal is lmao) but then no actually turns out they’re actually real characters who exist within the show too fuck you

ANYWAY I really did love this show and felt like I got a lot out of it despite it being pretty infamously hard to decipher but the ways it's inscrutable appeal to me specifically so very happy with this I'm gonna be thinking about it for a while

[comicteaparty]

September 7th, 2017 CTP Archive

The archive for the Comic Tea Party chat that occurred on September 7th, 2017, from 5PM - 7PM PDT.  The chat focused on Shades of Men by Jrej.

Featured Comment:

Chat:

RebelVampire

Good day everyone~! This week’s Comic Tea Party is now officially beginning. Today we are discussing Shades of Men by Jrej~! (https://tapas.io/series/ShadesOfMen-Pages) For those new to CTP, discussions about the comic are freeform, so please feel free to bring up whatever you wish. However, every 30 minutes I will be dropping in a discussion question to help those who would like a prompt. These questions are totally OPTIONAL to answer so pay them no mind if you wish~! Remember, constructive criticism is allowed, but the primary focus here is to have fun and appreciate the amazing comics that the community makes~! Each chat a top comment will be picked and featured on an ad for this chat, so let’s have a great discussion~! With that said, let us begin with this first question~!

QUESTION 1. What is your favorite scene in the comic so far and why?

for me i think my favorite scene is more a series of scenes where they first meet david and try to teach him the ropes of being on the streets. especially when they hit the moment where they cant get shelter for the night so actually have to sleep on the streets. the contrast really impacted me quite a lot

i also liked how it showed some of the warmer side to lev and ricky since they took it in a rather positive stride. i know if i had been in david's shoes, i wouldve been really hit with a brick of reality in that moment

mathtans

Bit late, as per typical for me. Favorite scene... possibly where Lev sees that fax? It throws everything into a bit of a new light, which I usually find interesting, new perspectives and all.

Though I gather the author hadn't expected it to be that big of a deal from glancing at the comments.

RebelVampire

really? i didnt look at the comments and now im curious

mathtans

Yeah, the ropes thing was well portrayed too. I think the way the artwork is done kind of helps with showing the difficulties, somehow... gritty? Words fail me.

Now I'm double checking... oh, the author said they hadn't thought it would be a key moment of the story when starting, but it is.

I only read on tapas this time, not the author's personal site.

I know Tenor read too, I saw a comment near the end. ^.^

RebelVampire

thats okay i read it on tapas too. i just read via the link i was given unless theres situations like with tangled river where there was that page that didnt load.

idk if id say the artwork was gritty personally speaking cause of seen grittier. but i do think the artwork fits really well and has a dark and bleak quality to it

mathtans

Fair enough. I found myself with less free time this week too. ^.^ Made it to the end though.

RebelVampire

to express the bleak quality of life

mathtans

Yeah, gritty's the wrong word... eugh... like... sombre? Maybe it's the colour choices.

RebelVampire

sombre might be a good way to put it

i do think its the color choices cause something about the pallette makes the world feel....kind of mute

mathtans

Mute's a real good word, considering Lev. ^^

The other thing about that reward for David thing, it actually misdirected me a bit. I thought they guys would be trying to track him down, to get the reward money for him to save Ricky. Instead they did the hotel heist.

Lev's got character, gotta give him that, he hasn't said anything about it yet.

RebelVampire

oh that wouldve been an interesting prospect. i honestly did not consider that. i was waiting for something a bit more cliche. like david showing back up of his own freewill like "im sorry lev i was mad lets save ricky dramatic tears "

mathtans

I was wondering a little about that, but considering what the guy had just experienced, I felt like they'd have to stumble on David. Rather than him seeking them out. And possibly getting a gun in his face again.

I would not like that, but then, I'm really not a fan of guns.

Which makes me kind of torn about the comic, because on the one hand, guns are not tools to solve problems, but on the other hand, the homeless guys are kind of responsible in using them and I liked the acknowledgement about conserving ammo.(edited)

RebelVampire

yeah honestly i kind of appreciated david left and didnt comeback. cause i felt that was a bit more true to life. since its not like ricky and lev are bffs with him just for showing him the ropes. theyre more like helpful strangers. and if you meet strangers who get you beat up, probably best not to hang with those people

mathtans

The other kind of true to life thing was how not everybody was immediately on board with Lev and his plans. Some thought things were going too far -- and even before the casino some thought that. I liked that perspective.

I also suspected they'd have at least one casualty, to keep things realistic. Expectations met there.

RebelVampire

i felt really sad for the guy who died. but on the otherhand it was well-deserved in the sense the hobos were in way over their heads. like that went beyond too far XD the fact any of them survived is a miracle(edited)

mathtans

Yeah... I feel like Lev was once in the military though? Or guerrilla warfare? Like, I wonder if his apparent dementia (seeing people as lions) is related to previous experiences.

He knows things, is what I'm getting at. But he got tired of explaining things to people. Maybe.

Now I wonder how he ended up in Paris.

RebelVampire

i feel like Lev had at least used a gun before. it didnt feel like it was his first rodeo. but then again using a gun isnt rocket science persay if in an emergency situation. not to say theyd be mega skilled in those situations and would understand good gun safety. just guns are still pretty easy to use, so idk how much to assume of Lev's skills.

Tenor

I'M LATE AND ON MOBILE BUT I'M HERE???

mathtans

Yay Tenor!

RebelVampire

welcome Tenor

all are welcome

mathtans

Yeah... maybe it was also the whole "we don't leave anybody behind". I dunno. Just a vibe.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 2. One of the main characters of the comic, Lev, is a very mysterious person. He doesn’t speak much, and nobody seems to know his background story that well. What do you think happened in Lev’s life that made him the person he is? Why do you think Lev lives on the streets? Why would he not speak to anybody for so many years? What inspires his loyalty towards Ricky that he’d go to such extreme lengths to help him?

mathtans

You segued that beautifully

RebelVampire

Tenor

And for question 1: my favorite scene has got to be the rescue scenes, mostly as they are poorly constructed and entirely chaotic - which perfectly fits a band of misfits trying to do things they have never done. It takes away from the cliche of heroes always suceed/are lucky/seem to know what they are doing despite doing it a first time and I really liked that

mathtans

Tenor - You mean like when they saved each other from the gun runners, or when they charged in to save Ricky, or generally...?

RebelVampire

yeah i really enjoy that a lot of the rescue scenes have this vibe of like them saying "i saw someone on tv do it like this yolo"

Tenor

2: my bets is either involved, or blames himself, for the loss of someone. He does seem to show hallucinations and strikes me like he suffers from quite a bit of PTSD.

Specifically the hotel scene

Just "well" lmao

mathtans

As to Lev... darned if I know. I feel like he's got that kind of military vibe (maybe it's a PTSD thing I'm sensing, yeah), and a desire to help people who look a certain way (David) or who are good to him (Ricky). Maybe he'll spill to the person he's sitting with on the bench.

In the most recent update, I mean.

Tenor

I'm betting hell spill after he catches david, persobally

Use yourself as a living example for why shut isn't all roses

mathtans

Like, Lev was all "no problem just get me something like a weapon and I'll pull a spiderman". That comes with training, not watching cartoons.

Tenor

Right.

mathtans

Tenor: Good point. Might be a while before David comes back into it though... looking like they'll have to track him down to clear Lev's name.

RebelVampire

i always wondered if lev was in trouble for not paying those hospital bills.

mathtans

Huh. I didn't even think about that. What is the French medical care system like?

(I've actually been there, but not to a hospital, fortunately. Which reminds me, nice depiction of Paris.)

Tenor

And to address on an earlier point: guns can be harder to use correctly than you'd think. He'd have to have known how to turn off safety on all those weapons, how to put ammo in them, how to reliably aim, some of those weapons depending on make and model you need to KNOW. (Look up the wrist breaker lmao). So I'd say at least an occupation around them, yes.

mathtans

Yeah, it's not like the homeless guys can ask Siri.

Tenor

Bc strength of the knock back can duck you up, dislocated shoulders, etc

Fff

mathtans

thinks A bit of a tangent, but have we seen female characters?

Tenor

Slowly making my way to a pc

I think a few headshots

RebelVampire

but side characters. nobody major i think cause i mean, the comic is called shades of men

so i think its pretty clear what its focus is XD

mathtans

Yeah, good point about the title. Guess I was wondering about females and the military suddenly. There's that new character in the latest update though too.

Tenor

TBF men could imply humanity as well.

RebelVampire

true. that could be a double underlying meaning. like a story focusing on men but also about the condition of humanity as a whole

mathtans

Lev being in the hospital means he must be in a database now?

(Sorry I'm all over the place.)

Tenor

It's ok xD

mathtans

I think some of the humanity thing comes across with how the characters are generally treated too.

RebelVampire

see this is a thing im really curious about. how did the hospital know his name? like is he carrying a form of ID on him?(edited)

cause i dont get the sense he wound up at the hospital of his own accord

Tenor

He was also unconcious at time of 'registration'.

So yeah, he has to have been known if not carrying an ID.

mathtans

No, someone brought him in... I think we saw them in the background as Lev was sneaking out. I guess I assumed he did have some sort of ID. He grabbed his clothes while escaping.

But yeah, three months later and no one's followed up on that.

Goes a bit to the theme of homeless people being treated as "invisible".

RebelVampire

well to be fair its not like they have endless resources to find him. the police clearly cant even find him if they have to broadcast about his being a kidnapping suspect

mathtans

Except the newscasters mentioned Lev. Does he have a police record?

There is that. And he's good at hiding.

What with not making much noise.

Tenor

I figured he might have been seen in the images of David from the ...catacombs?

And there was assumption based on that, since David looked pretty beaten then.

(But they still got his name, so, yeah, maybe still a record)

mathtans

I wonder if Lev has family?? Ricky mentioned family. Maybe Lev's family died, and that's why he's so traumatized and wanted to help David.

Well, when Lev, David and Ricky were doing their singing, people had camera phones. I figured the association came from that.

RebelVampire

oh yeah thats def how he became a suspect. its a mystery how they put a name to a face tho. he could have a record. but its also not like being homeless makes you disappear out of the systems. systems will still show you exist if you know the name or number.

so hard to say

i do think lev's family must of died

thats usually something that tears one apart and puts them on the street

mathtans

Also, not sure if it's a tiny plot hole, but after making a whole deal to David about not sitting in someone else's reserved spot... they go and play somewhere that's off limits. Without kind of giving him the heads up about the running.

Maybe Lev is a version of David back from the future. (Just because we haven't had any theories that are real crazy yet.)

RebelVampire

ah then theres the answer. Lev/David from the future is devastated by the loss of the cat

as a cat lover, nothing better happen to that cat O_O

i will be so sad

mathtans

Hah. Could David's parents be dead though, I wonder?

Like, we don't know who he was actually living with. Some guy who's forgetful about keys, and a cat.

Equally possible I'm forgetting something obvious.

RebelVampire

i feel like they showed david's parents in the broadcast

mathtans

Did they say it was his parents? Or maybe he's adopted?

RebelVampire

hmmm or maybe not

mathtans

Also, why'd the change the locks on the house if they wanted him to come home??

Or was David lying about it being the right key?

RebelVampire

well if they suspected kidnapping thatd be reason to change them

cause they couldve thought someone broke into the house

Tenor

I think it was his dad in the broadcast

mathtans

I suppose that's true. But wouldn't they have an alarm system too after that? Well, maybe not.

I'll buy it; I don't remember the broadcast so well.

Shady David is shady.

Tenor

He could also be from an incredible abusive home.

mathtans

Oh, that's very true.

Tenor

So he ran away but of course to say THAT implies they did something wrong so they're saying he was kidnapped.

RebelVampire

hmmm but maybe not. i cant see anything in the broadcast. i might be thinking of a different scene.

well to be fair now that im relooking at first he was just missing

and i think they changed it to kidnapping

Tenor

Yeah the flyer was missing.

It changed to kidnapping after David 'left" Lev's life.

mathtans

Oh, that's interesting. Scandal!

Tenor

(Which was after the more recent updates)

RebelVampire

but the fact he ran away doesnt necessarily mean his parents did anything wrong. some teens are really dumb and run away for stupid reasons.

his parents were stifling his career of being a rockstar

mathtans

Most don't stick it out as long as David though, I feel. But maybe not.

David's real upset that his guitar's smashed now then.

RebelVampire

most dont but david could be in that minority that are just that stubborn. but to be fair im saying not necessarily

his parents could also be shit ppl mathtans

Yeah, not enough info to call either way yet, really.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 3. In the beginning Ricky, Lev, and the other hobos meet David, a young boy who finds himself homeless. David claims this is due to the fact he got kicked out of his house. However, it is later revealed through his missing posters that David most likely ran away. Why do you think David would choose living on the streets over living with his family? Do you think David will be able to learn to live on the streets or will he find himself in deep trouble down the line?

ah look how convenient

mathtans

Actually, that would be a bit of a twist, if David WAS actually kidnapped now. After trying to do it alone. Maybe someone sent a ransom note and everything. (Unsigned, so people think it was Lev.)

Tenor

One hand I want to say maybe abuse? On the other I think it probably was more likely a fight with his parents. He seemed nearing adulthood, he might have wanted to run off to a more bohemian (sp?) lifestyle they didn't approve of and he dipped.

RebelVampire

yeah i personally lean towards a fight than abuse. just that his parents wanted something for his life he didnt and he wanted to be free and all that.

i have been curious who the heck david went off with

like david baby no, did you get involved with a gang

is it a secret cat cult

and you are caring for their god

mathtans

There is a whole underground. But maybe he found honest work somehow?

(Speaking of underground, kudos to the writer for the research on Paris casinos that I noticed in passing. Due diligence for seeing that they're privately owned.)

Kristin

Hi? Is the chat still happening?

RebelVampire

yes it is~!

Kristin

sweet

Sorry I'm late

mathtans

We all have our own time zones.

RebelVampire

no problem thank you for coming

Tenor

Hi~!

And it's ok Kristin I was late too. xD

RebelVampire

@math i honestly doubt he found honest work. he does not seem to be in the state of someone who found honest work. more like someone who just finally adjusted to living on the streets

Tenor

He might have found a good support group for what he's kinda wanting to do.

RebelVampire

yes a good support group who drive suspicious white vans

mathtans

Yeah, you are probably right on that. (I'm usually more of a cynic... but I also tend to devils advocate a lot, and there's a bit of a cynical vibe so maybe I'm just going counter to that here... hoping for the best.)

Suspicious white vans filled with guns? I feel like there's still gonna be repercussions from them stealing all those things.

RebelVampire

yeah there has to be. gangs usually dont like their stuff getting stolen

let alone finding out their stuff got stolen by a bunch of hobos

but to be fair they gotta get repercussions for shooting up a casino

cause i doubt no civilians got hurt

Tenor

I didn't see the guns fff-

mathtans

The casino started shooting first though. Well, kinda... Lev was a faster draw.

Tenor

Oh wait we tlakin earlier?

mathtans

I may be all over the place again.

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

I'm finally home I hope I'm noto too late

I have to quickly say I really enjoy the dreary feel I am getting from the comic, it's very atmospheric

Tenor

Nope yer good JOIN US. :D

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

Paired up with some Silent Hill music I been reading it with that music as background

Specially Silent Hill 2 music

Tenor

...

Oh. My. God.

That is brilliant I should reread with that :|

RebelVampire

you do that Tenor. i think ill sit that out. comic sad enough without making it spooky. XD

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

I'm super slow but I really like the stoic main character he looks like he has seen some shit in his life

It's not the spookiness, it's more like the atomshpere

Like not the chase scenes but defintely the town music

mathtans

Oooh, I hadn't even thought about Silent Hill, goodness. Though again, the Paris feel works for me.

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

I also like listening to some ummmm

What do they call the sounds of people in the streets?

mathtans

I used "sombre". ^.^

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

Atomshpere sounds

mathtans

Background noise...?

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

Like I like listening to the sound of people talking and moving in a crowded area while reading it and then it clicks me to the location

Yeah I guess

RebelVampire

on a not music note, i do give the creator credit. i really get the vibe from lev in his expressions that hes experienced some shit in life, regardless of what it is

Tenor

Oh yes, def.

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

Yes I also love the location, I don't see a lot of comics in other locations

mathtans

Agreed.

Tenor

And I like the story does pretty well with a nearly-silent protagonist. That can be pretty hard to show and move stories forward with.

mathtans

Also, for that whole bit where Lev wasn't speaking, still really good at conveying it.

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

It's like how I am working very hard to make a comic based in Hong Kong because the buildings are amazing

Also yes, Lev has the face of "I seen shit, don't fuck with me" pardon my language XD

Tenor

/omg so offended. /jkjk

mathtans

Purple lions will do that to you.

Tenor

(My mobile was censoring my cussing so it's ok Lmao)

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

Also I haven't read all of it, but I headcannon this is all an artistic dream or vision as a person is looking at a picture in a museum, remembering the past or something

crack theories away

mathtans

There's also some good development with secondary characters. I'm (as always) abysmal with names, but eyepatch guy, I've liked him.

RebelVampire

lol omg. really its just david sitting in a museum thinking the "what if i was homeless" scenario. then he goes home after he realizes it sucks.

Kristin

The art evolution is really interesting. Looking back at the beginning the art was a lot gritier. The new art feels softer and more optomistic somehow.

mathtans

David is staring at a picture of Lev... then he realizes, it's a mirror!

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

Ohh I need to read more to see the art change :3

mathtans

I'm not always great at noticing art shifts. I don't binge so much as read bits through the week.

RebelVampire

im torn between thinking the art change was on purpose to express more optimism or if it was just something that happened cause of art improvement.

cause its definitely improved which is interesting to see for sure

mathtans

Why not both?

Tenor

I do feel it's a bit of both. You can see the growth in the artist through the pages for sure at least.

RebelVampire

but then again maybe its the calm before the storm

showing life moves on before it pours again

mathtans

I wonder if they'll have to break back into David's house to track him down.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 4. The comic deals with a lot of themes and issues in regards to survival, redemption, and homelessness. Was there anything that struck you as particularly poignant in regards to this? What do you think about the hobos extreme lengths to survive? Do you think any of them will manage to get off the streets or do they seemed doomed to it? Will they find redemption from their pasts?

maybe they go to david's house to explain lev didnt kidnap david. and then things escalate and suddenly lev is holding them hostage

mathtans

I could kinda see that happening. O.o

There was Lev's collapse, and waking up in the hospital. That was actually an interesting one, because on the one hand, he wasn't left to die in the street, someone helped him... but then Lev didn't even seem to have wanted the help. Like, not wanting to accept charity, even at the expense of his life.

RebelVampire

to be fair tho, i wouldve been none too pleased in his situation. greatful for being alive, sure. but mad i could potentially get situated with an enormous hospital bill

cause even if they have a better healthcare system there, when youre homeless you dont exactly have any money to give in the first place

mathtans

Yeah... I guess I'm kind of spoiled, what with having work benefits and the Ontario Health Insurance Plan, I don't think about costs. Unless I'm reading about the US.

It's nice that the homeless guys get together, and even have a system like what Lev used to recruit for Ricky. Solidarity and all. They can redeem each other, in a way.

RebelVampire

maybe. idk about redeeming cause in the same vein they could enable each other to remain in their unredeemed states through encouraging vegetative behaviors

as someone who lives in the US i think about costs all the time

mathtans

Yeah, that's a good point. Though some people didn't necessarily agree too.

I wonder in retrospect what they did with the guns? Sold them? That feels like a bad plan.

RebelVampire

maybe they just kept them. or just dumped them somewhere. i feel like some would just want to throw them away. try to forget all that happened.

mathtans

Yeah.

RebelVampire

cause selling guns just sounds like a recipe for getting into jail

mathtans

Any fave secondary characters? I like the eyepatch guy, as I said... who can apparently see, I didn't expect that little tidbit. (It's nice to have some levity in there at times.)

RebelVampire

that would be my fave secondary character too just for the surprise my eyepatch is fake thing. i really enjoyed the moment in general cause everything was otherwise so serious, so it was good to have something a smidgen light-hearted

mathtans

He helped save them at the hotel too. Nice guy.

Wish I was better with names. (Angus? That feels not quite right.)

Tenor

4: They show Lev's friend is making steps to get clean and hopefully get off the streets. Out of those two he'd def be one to get out. But it's also more complicated than that because if France's homeless situation is any like ours it's not as simple as 'work hard' to get out. Sometimes without the right guidance, resource, will to be helped, or even with all of this you just can't get out. It's a mixed bag, really. Example if this were situated in america Lev, if he was indeed military, would probably be a Vet by the sounds of it and the homeless Vets in our nation is absolutely horrific due to the sheer amount of how the system is out to screw our soldiers.

RebelVampire

yeah i dont think their redemption is solely in their hands for sure. cause even if theyre willing, society is against them from the start. granted i think them being willing is also a big factor too. cause a lot of them do feel like they gave up at this point, which 100% ensures theyll probably not get out. its a sad situation

Tenor

(Also France has a universal health care that's apparently rated one of the best in the world so maybe he won't get sattled with a bill? /yay google)

mathtans

Well, and Ricky's issues with gambling were alluded to... but it doesn't seem like that's a thing he does any more. So that maybe helps him get off the street too?

Feather, Duke of Comedic Timing

Hmm I don't know much about the later part of the story but I like how it seems like all the homeless people have a comunity within each other?

mathtans

Yeah, agreed on that, Feather. They honour their own fave spots and have bbqs and stuff. Nice.

RebelVampire

so with ten mins left, i want to say i didnt realize that the person who sat down with Lev in the latest update was the same person in the bg from the hospital

mathtans

Wait, really? I didn't pick up on that either.

RebelVampire

https://tapas.io/episode/231368

https://tapas.io/episode/819900

unless the clothes are an extreme coincidence XD

mathtans

I'll be darned. I wouldn't buy coincidence, no. But I imagine many people would have forgotten (if I can forget over the 3 days between when I read those, people will forget over 3 months or whatever). So... they know each other. That's all I can think.

Tenor

Considering they're really looking at Lev? Nah I think they recognize 'em.

RebelVampire

maybe theyre the person who helped him to the hospital or something somehow.

mathtans

Well, yeah, but it makes me wonder if maybe that wasn't the first time? Guardian angel in real life sort of thing?

Tenor

could be. Could be someone who knows 'em. Could be a potential major character later.

LOTS OF POTENTIALS

RebelVampire

it was david's sister all along come to ask Lev where the heck david is and why hes getting into white vans

Tenor

Hnn Can't wait to see where it go tho. :D I'm def really eager on seeing where things go with David (because if he's a runaway for being just essentially an unhappy brat I'm gunna shriek because that is a nightmare on a parent /one of my fears, my child is stubborn lmao)

LOL

TBF I did think a relative but only because the blond/light hair OTL

No real backing just a 'huh that'd be funny' xD

RebelVampire

nah that was the only reason i thought of it too

i mean chances are slim but not impossible

mathtans

Maybe she's the reason Lev stopped talking years ago.

He said something he regretted to her and decided not to speak again.

RebelVampire

if davids a runaway for being a brat im just gonna shake my head sadly. cause in a few years hes gonna realize he fucked up so hard.

mathtans

Maybe David reminds Lev of the mystery woman, that's why he wanted to help David.

I dunno. Good catch there though.

Spotting the similarity I mean.

RebelVampire

i only found it during the chat cause i was looking at the hospital scene

RebelVampire

and was like "wait a sec ive seen you before"

Unfortunately, the scheduled Comic Tea Party is now complete~! Thank you everyone so much for joining this week’s chat~! That being said, if you would like to continue discussing the comic, we encourage you to do so~! We want to give a big thank you to Jrej, as well, for volunteering Shades of Men for our reading queue. If you liked the comic, please be sure to support Jrej’s efforts. If you have questions, concerns, or suggestions about CTP, please feel free to PM me, or e-mail me at RebelVampire@startfaire.com.

With that said, next week’s Comic Tea Party will focus on Nine Twilights by Andrea Rosales, Anne Mortensen-Agnew, and Chris Hansbrough. Please use this week to read as much of the comic as you would like. Hope to see you next Thursday (September 14th) from 5PM to 7PM PDT~! Until then~! Comic: http://www.ninetwilights.com/