#and his trauma is explored at least a little bit unlike Robin's. like you can pretty much forget she was kidnapped drugged and tortured

[the-lark-ascending69]

Robin being Will's "queer mentor" this, Robin being a byler wingman that, what about Robin being such an useless wreck that when Will arrives looking for advice he's like damn girl you're even more fucked up by this than I am. What am i supposed to do now

[shieldofrohan]

Thanks for the reply 😊 . I read the books after binging the show during the pandemic and after finishing I was a bit put off by the characterisation of Tyrion and Arya . I expected them to be the characters looking most forward to reading after I binged the show considering they were touted as his favourites. Instead I found their arcs in each respective book could have been truncated by one fourths and nothing would lose.

Another thing was the prose. Grrm's strength is prose and I found it the weakest in these two POV characters. It's hilarious that he spends so much time with these 2 yet I found the prose of their less favoured counterparts ( Sansa, Cersei) , Cat and Bran ( who gets so much less page time for a protagonist of his stature) more engaging.

Hello Anon,

Let’s look at this:

This table kind of shows why Martin is struggling with finishing the books.

But before that let’s talk about what you said first.

Yes, when you see Martin talking so highly about these two, you expect them to be special. Most of the fandom loves these two too. WHY? Because just like Martin, they have no taste (I’m only half joking…).

I often wonder does Martin think that he did some with an evil and smart dwarf and and tomboy girl who likes killing people? LoL. Let’s not be so harsh.

Tbf, Martin’s dwarf is not so far away from the cartoonish dwarf characters in the literature:

In A Song of Ice and Fire, "dwarf" is a medical condition, not a species (in other words, like Real Life), making it a case of Our Dwarves are Different. However, the only really prominent one, Tyrion Lannister, manages to nail most of the traits pretty well. He fights surprisingly fiercely with axes and crossbows, grows something you could call a beard, makes a big deal about Casterly Rock and its gold mines being his rightful inheritance, drinks heavily, has trouble controlling his temper, holds grudges like nobody else, mistakes a female dwarf for a male one, and gets snuck past the wall of a merchant's mansion in a barrel...

[source]

Evil, greedy, smart and bitter dwarf is not sth new in literature. What makes Asoiaf different from other fantasy series is its POV characters which are psychologically examined. So we can get into the minds of these POVs. Therefore we understand why Tyrion is like this. But other than that there isn’t much brand new here.

I understand why Tyrion is Martin’s favourite character. Martin loves writing grey characters and Tyrion was the first gray POV we met in the books. Before him other POVs were not very gray... they were normal, mostly good people (Dany shows her true colors later in the first book, but first she was a poor girl in an awful situation). Tyrion doesn’t hold back about his dark desires like wanting to burn his sister alive in the beginning of the AGOT. So from the start he was THE grey character.

We see that Tyrion is the character with most PoVs. And this is not so surprising considering he is in the middle of many plots. BUT some of his POVs were not that necessary and they are too character-oriented aka too much about Tyrion and Tyrion alone. This wouldn’t be tiring if Asoiaf wasn’t a multi-character series.

Another thing that bothers me about this that: only few characters (like Tyrion) have this privilege. Tyrion is allowed to express his bitter feelings about his father and sister or the abuse he endured but another main character Sansa is not. Sansa’s bitter feelings towards her father about him favoring her misbehaved sister are always in subtext and after his death… Sansa doesn’t even think about this… suddenly Ned is redeemed even though he was the reason of many of her misfortunes.

Or Sansa’s trauma with Sandor/Tyrion/Littlefinger etc are sometimes (!) just passing comments. Sansa is bitter about them for one sentence and in the next she feels sorry for them or worse she whitewashes them (we can argue that this happens because she is a nice young girl but let her be angry and bitter selfishly against abusers once in a while .. because your readers are stupid Martin…).

I mean, Martin really made her think marrying Tyrion again would be better than marrying a sick innocent little boy Robin…

Sansa felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes, but she could not imagine ever wanting to be his wife. I would sooner be married to Tyrion again.

A Storm of Swords - Sansa

I know Martin wants to ride Tyrion’s dick very much but no girl would ever think this about their molester - we might say that she wasn’t aware of the danger that Tyrion meant for her but in text we know that Tyrion molested her and was desiring her (and Sansa was aware of this) or maybe we can say she is away from Tyrion threat so she just rambles without meaning it but again NO little girl would ever want to be in the same room with some older pervert who touched her breast with hungry eyes.  

So my point is if Tyrion is allowed to whine then so should Sansa (I am talking about Sansa because she is my fav but you can choose another character). Let her be bitter about her dad, her brother Robb who did nothing to save her, her abusers without hiding the PTSD in subtext (like her Unkiss is a way of dealing with trauma and her screaming how Sandor assaulted her but these are hidden in subtext- And I have already criticized Martin for hiding trauma in subtext or not exploring at all).

BUT this would require more Sansa chapters and we can’t have them apparently. I am still holding on the possibility that Martin will focus on more characters like Bran and Sansa in the next two books (they are future king and queen but so far they have the least chapters) and maybe then he can have my praise.

About Arya… she REALLY doesn’t need that many chapters. You could cut half of her chapters and nothing would change. Unlike in the case with Tyrion, I can’t find a reason why she has so many chapters. But I know that Martin loves writing her (your local tour guide girl) so this is all about author’s pleasure.

First I thought maybe it was because he wanted to show how realm is suffering because of high lords’ war but we get that from Brienne’s POVs too. So what was the reason? I think Martin could have told everything with less Arya chapters but it’s his choice I guess… She bored me to death but if people are ok with these unnecessary chapters, I am happy for them but I find it ridiculous.

So we could be happier with less Tyrion and Arya chapters but every author favors his specific characters so I guess we have to deal with it.

You are so right about how Cersei, Sansa, Cat and BRAN (Asoiaf is HIS story! He is THE PROTAGONIST) are much more interesting and their chapters are much more engaging. I think Cersei suffers a little because of being Tyrion’s opponent (Martin paints Cersei as a very dark character and it makes you think that maybe Martin tries to make reader root for Tyrion?) but her chapters are really good and things HAPPEN.

I really want to praise Martin with Cat’s POVs. His choice of telling the war via her POVs is one of the things that I love about Martin’s writing (I enjoy many of his choices but I am very vocal about his errors too- but I will always defend him when it’s due and I LOVE CAT!)

About Bran… I know that Bran is the hardest POV for Martin but I think he manages to write him well- I like Bran POVs. But in my opinion, this hardship prevents him writing more Bran chapters. My dear boy has the least PoVs and this is sad.

This is also a problem because he is the protagonist but he was given the least attention. Most of the readers care about Tyrion/Arya/Jon/Dany more than they care about Bran.

And in the show we saw that this became a problem when Bran ended his story. People didn’t care about him and didn’t find his ending satisfying, they even started to see him as a villain. In the show it was mostly D&D’s fault for cutting Bran out of the story and making him a robot but Martin has also a long way to fix this in his books too. So far (and we are talking about 5 books!!) Bran looks like a mystic side character.

I understand that Martin can’t keep things fast and open when it comes to Bran because he has the power to spoil all characters and plots but if Martin won’t fix this in TWOW and ADOS… this will cause a BIG PROBLEM.. (also all my Bran thoughts apply to Sansa and her situation, too.)

So all these PoVs and their chapter numbers problem must be affecting Martin’s progress with TWOW. He has to cut things short with so many characters and he has to give more attention to some characters that he hadn’t done before. This is challenging but I have hope that he’ll manage it eventually.

Thanks for the ask. Have a nice day.

[bigskydreaming]

Is there anything dumber than a reverse-age AU? No, seriously, Dick is the paragon because he was the first Robin and antedated Speedy, Aqualad and Aquagirl, and Kid Flash. And you can go down the list. Tim has to follow Jason because Jason would be different without the death trauma: Tim himself had a bit of a complex about not "deserving" the mantle Dick created and Jason sanctified. Then we get to Damian, who is young enough to be Dick's son.

Like, I’m not trying to shit on people who just like reverse age AUs for the fluffy aspects a lot of them tend to have, to be fair. Some people are just looking for fluff, and I get that. Those AUs don’t appeal to me for many reasons I’ve already gotten into in depth, but on a surface level I mean, its not really a big deal to switch things up sometimes for the hell of it. But in any kind of in-depth examination of that premise, I feel there’s a whole lot of missed opportunity left to explore in that....with that being I guess the thing that nags at me most? 

I mean....I would be genuinely interested in reading a reverse age AU that actually acted as kind of a....”It’s A Wonderful Life” examination of what happens if Dick isn’t the first Batkid, but the youngest. I think it can still be plausible for Tim, Jason, Cass and Dick to all end up adopted even if Damian is the oldest.....but the one thing I’ve never seen any reverse age AU examine is the part I’d reeeeeeaally be interested in, like you alluded to with the other original sidekicks....

And that’s the element that’s really missing from reverse age AUs for me, personally.....acknowledgment of Dick’s impact not just on his family’s formation....but the DC universe as a whole. Dick wasn’t just the first Robin. He was the first child hero, period. He was what started the whole movement, not just within his own family, but outside of it as well. Without his example, would Donna and Garth have left their homes to become heroes for the surface world/Man’s world? Would Wally have even tried replicating Barry’s experiment, thinking that it was even possible for a kid like him to be a hero? If Bruce’s first child and protégé was his biological son, would Oliver have thought to take Roy in as his ward instead of just making sure he ended up with a good home?

Look, I love Damian. But Damian is not Dick, and it doesn’t really track that their positions could be switched and wind up with nothing else being all that majorly different......I guess the thing about reverse age AUs that makes them really just not my cup of tea is like....to me, it seems like they should result in HUGE ripple effects and alteration to the Batfamily and the DC Earth as a whole....and those ripple effects imo ARE the story, ARE the things really begging to be explored by that premise to me.....but its not really what I think most readers and writers of those stories are looking for, hence the disconnect for me. 

Like....as I said, I do like Damian, but for who he is. And who he is, is just....not the bright, shining example who captures the imagination and inspires other people the way Dick inspires people. And that’s okay! Because its not a knock against anyone else to not be that, its just who they are.....and who they are isn’t Dick Grayson. Everything about Dick Grayson specifically, is what led to the trend of child heroes both on a meta level and an in universe level. Nothing about that is accidental.....those only appeared in more and more comics because Dick Grayson, the original Robin, captured the imagination of readers and appealed to them and made them want to see MORE child heroes.....just like the sight of a young child in bright colors and cracking puns even as he kept pace with one of the most dark and infamous heroes of the DC Earth captured the imagination of other young people like Dick and with talents and powers of their own and made them sit up and say hey, maybe that could be me too....if someone my age can be BATMAN’S partner, why couldn’t I be Wonder Woman’s/Green Arrow’s/Aquaman’s/The Flash’s? 

And I just don’t really see Damian having that effect on peers, you know? Because Damian is like his father in temperament and preferences, whereas Dick was deliberately a contrast by his own choices. Damian wanted to BE like Bruce growing up hearing his father’s legend....and then he wanted to be more like Dick, when he realized Dick’s own strengths and attributes, IMO.....but as the first child, without Dick’s example? Damian would be more inclined to be a mini-Batman, calling himself something like Batboy and molding himself in his father’s image......which means keeping to the shadows. Being more myth than in-your-face-indisputable-fact like Dick was as Robin. And Bruce would have been more inclined to see this as a good thing, and keep Damian as much beside him in the shadows as possible, unlike Dick who just wasn’t suited to that and wasn’t interested in trying to be that. 

So I think that a huge potential ripple is right there from the start....like maybe there would be other Batkids and protégés for Bruce after Damian, but would there be other teen heroes? Would there at least maybe have been a delayed start to the other teen heroes, not inspired by Damian directly but more just parallel evolutions who took a little more time to find the inspiration and opportunities to impress themselves upon their mentors? Would even Gothamites know for sure that Batman even had a partner, or partners plural, or would they be more rumor than symbol, like Dick was as Robin, and the other Robins were inspired to be when following HIS example, rather than BRUCE’S example?

That’s what I would really love to see from the reverse age AU premise, personally. And why the ones that exist just don’t really draw me in - they all seem to by premise alone just kinda devalue Dick’s effect on his surroundings as well as just his character as a whole.....there’s the impression that it doesn’t really matter if Dick came first, that anyone could have had the same effects and results that he did, when like.....that’s just not true, IMO. And it is kinda an inherent knock against his character because it sort of runs with the idea that Dick’s no big deal, that his precedent is no big deal, that he wasn’t necessary, for the DC Earth to be the one we all are drawn to today, and that’s just....I don’t see it. 

I mean, so much of that is what draws me to his character, personally....the fact that he IS so much bigger than just himself, that his actions and choices have such far-reaching implications. Dick Grayson IS the ripple effects that he’s caused from day one of his creation.....and ignoring that, acting like that’s no big deal and like it could just as easily have been any other character when to my mind it wouldn’t have been any other character because no other character has made the choices he has, specifically, for the reasons he has, specifically.....like, I think that has a lot to do with a lot of the almost implicit or absent-minded....not even contempt, but just....non-interest in his character, that many fans of other Robins have. 

Like, what if Dick wasn’t the first - that’s the basic premise of these particular AUs. But the conclusion almost all of them result in is....nothing else would really be all that different. And that’s just not that far away from saying that Dick’s character is largely irrelevant and inconsequential....when to my mind, obviously, nothing is further than the truth. Yeah, what if Dick wasn’t the first? Honestly, truly asked and examined.....what would be different? Not just about his family but the whole DC Earth?

Because I think the differences would be enormous. 

LOL, this is the 80th anniversary of this character’s creation. A character who has consistently been one of the highest profile, most visible characters in the entire DC universe for pretty much all of those 80 years, in one way or another. Who has only spent part of one issue dead, in all of that time. And in none of that time retired, or absent, or not in some way still at the center of the cape community.

How do you pretend that a character with that much history, that much presence.....has no real distinct impact on everything he’s connected to? That he could be plucked out of that tapestry and easily and seamlessly switched with a character who is noted for being the night to his day, just as Dick originally was the day to Bruce’s night? It just doesn’t make sense, IMO.