#and he'd never be in a position where lwj would be forced to make that choice

[mxtxfanatic]

Hi again! I come bearing a set of... more detailed-answer-requiring questions...which I'll send in different asks so... first question:

We know that LWJ used to believe in the gentry, cultivation clans, hierarchy, rules, orthodoxy etc. Like he expected them to do their jobs and justice to be served and everything which is how I am justifying his pre-resurrection treatment of WWX. But I do think he went through a massive perspective shift when his own clan elders turns their weapons at him and a barely-sane (at that moment) man and then it got cemented by his own punishment and the siege led on the burial mounds after the promise JGS made that caused WQ to offer herself. So my question is, am I just seeing it or did he really stop believing in justice and clans and their bullshit to be anything but self-serving and began making his own way in the world after. Like I know he's strong and all but I dont remember him ever asking for backup from his clan, no matter what and I feel like that kinda reflected on how they had broken his trust so wholly and irrevocably? Thoughts?

Whoa there, actually, we do not all agree that Lan Wangji used to believe in any of those things. Just like the plot-twist about Wei Wuxian's character is that he wasn't some evil demon corrupted by power, Lan Wangji's character plot-twist is that he was never as wedded to the rules as we are led to believe at the beginning. He has no problems going against his clan when he feels it necessary, in situations as big as his mother's death and the Nightless City bloodbath and as small as choosing to keep and raise the rabbits that Wei Wuxian gifted him. Neither fighting his elders nor his subsequent punishment were the beginnings of this idea for him as he's been doing this since he was six. As for his "loyalty" to the orthodoxy: Lan Wangji doesn't care about the orthodoxy so much as he cares that Wei Wuxian has reappeared after a 3-month disappearance, looking emaciated and hardened and using a completely new cultivation style that leaves mass death in its wake. He cares about Wei Wuxian using the ghost path because he assumes it is the reason why Wei Wuxian has taken this sharp 180 in personality. He and we learn that it is not.

My answer to the other ask is that people in the English-speaking fandom, particularly those from Western nations like the United States, are so attached to their usual literary archetypes that they fail to consider that a story from a completely different culture would have different literary archetypes. Wangxian's love is not "I will burn the world down for you." That is a Western take on romance. Wangxian's love is "I will support you at your side, always," and the story is built around that. Lan Wangji saved a catatonic Wei Wuxian from the Nightless City bloodbath and protected him against his own clan. Lan Wangji took in the child that Wei Wuxian and the Wen remnants raised and hid to save. Lan Wangji stands with Wei Wuxian publicly after the "Mo Xuanyu" reveal and during the second siege. When Wei Wuxian is resurrected, he follows the other man's lead and only moves to cover the other man's blind spots. Why does Lan Wangji do all this? Because they are on the same team.

[darkfalcon-z]

the sword thing IS fairly inconsequential (morally meaningless) - it's social status thing only as important as people make it to be. There are cultivators who don't use swords like NMJ - he uses the sabre.

In the book it's never confirmed that Ghostly Path have any sort of tangible effect on the practitioner, and if so it's never clarified what kind of effect it is an how it occurs. WWX's mental health doesn't get progressively worse, it's CQL's invention. It doesn't seem as if WWX was at any serious remiss of his duties in Lotus Pier until he left to rescue the Wens and it's hard to say whether or not he drunk more than prior to the war. From what we've seen WWX's first steps on the Ghostly Path may have harmed him especially given the circumstances in which he had to develop it (although "harm" is relative here given that it let him survive and leave the Burial Mounds, it's an equivalent of firefighter breaking an arm of a victim of an accident in order to take them out of a crushed, burning car). Additionally, excessive use of the Ghostly Path may wear WWX down, but it certainly doesn't corrupt or consume him. He's forced by the circumstances to balance energies on the Burial Mounds for over a year, especially considering multiple other stress factors.

The only other Ghostly Path practitioner we've seen is XY. We know that the Jin's hired some, but they all had poor results (we don't actually know how involved MXY was with actual practice of the Ghostly Path, only cultivation thing he did in the story was casting an array that predate WWX by centuries). We don't have a representative sample.

He killed JZX because he was so emotionally dysregulated he for a moment stopped paying attention to where he directed his attacks and JZX was unlucky to stand too close. The whole situation happens because he was cornered, at the mercy of human malice, and betrayed precisely when he was in a hope spot, after a long period of living in very stressful conditions and never getting time to rest and heal his earlier traumas.

He lost control over the corpses accidentally injured JYL ironically because he was so afraid something may go wrong he lost confidence in his ability to control the corpses (yeah, he's ability is directly conditioned on his his iron clad confidence in said ability).

Out of great sect heirs apparent/young sect leaders of this generation NMJ and JZX had been shown to actually care about justice even if doing the right thing is difficult and unpopular. Of course NMJ can't actually see what is just from behind his own prejudices and JZX doesn't show the best practical judgment ability - his principles are good and he'd implement them if he'd actually correctly identified what is going on around him. On the other hand JC and LXC don't really care that much (JGY starts from a very different positions than the others, so I won't address him here). JC in particularly doesn't get why would anyone go out their way to pursue justice when it doesn't earn them acclamation from the people in the position of authority (especially his dad). And it's not even a conscious thing, a matter of chosen articulated values - it's on a deeper level of moral orientation. That's why it's completely beyond him why would WWX do things he does when it would bring him scorn (JFM is dead why do things he would regard highly?). That's why he accuses WWX of trying to be a hero, from his perspective acting morally and pursuing justice has only instrumental value.

LWJ would still follow his principles even if he was in the position of Clan Leader, because that what means to have principles (I'm beginning to think the concept is alien to this fandom). On the contrary JC being a sect leader is more empowers to make meaningful decisions, what is holding him back is poor judgment but also lack of political competence. The lack of political competence would be LWJ's problem also if he was in this situation.

"why is the representative of Lan sect DEFENDING the guy who killed their elder??" - does a term procedural justice ring a bell. Wouldn't a reasonable person want someone, who offended against them to have a fair trial? Or like, ensured that they actually got the right guy?

(And we need to take into account that LWJ actually fought his own elders for WWX and didn't care who would see him helping him).

WWX dies as a result of the backlash from destroying Yin Tiger Tally. However, JC was the one who led the offensive during the Second Siege - he went there in order to kill WWX. WWX explicitly stated that JC had the most merit in that battle out of all the sect leaders.

JC thinks to himself how he have been about kidnapping and "using every possible way to make them talk" individuals he suspected of being WWX. Additionally, we've been presented credible testimony (second hand, but detailed and referencing the actual source) that JC tortured at least one for simply being named Wen way after WWX's death. (edit: I've made a mistake in this one and conflated two cases related by the same informant into one, I apologise for that, the eyewitness of the related event didn't actually witness a torture of some named Wen, but just of someone JC caught by mistake, this is chapter 92, note that second hand accounts are different from hearsay, if you read an article in paper written by a journalist who interview and eyewitness that's a second hand account, if a scientist reference an experiment they've read on in another paper that's a second hand account, if your mother tells you about something that happened to your grandma when she was a little girl that's second hand account)

During a war soldiers are not innocent (edit: I've made a typo and wrote 'was' instead of 'war' meaning: soldiers may be proven innocent of any wrongdoing after hostilities cease, but they can't be treated as innocent when they are part of an invading army). They may be innocent once they are taken as prisoners or after the war, but not they are a part of active military units engaging in hostile actions. War in itself is unjust but when your home is attacked it's not fighting back is permitting even greater injustice. If someone tries to kill you it's not unreasonable to take every possible measure to prevent them for doing so without thinking whether or not they are a bad person.

The retribution WWX takes about WC, WLJ and WZL is is gruesome but not disproportionate. In the circumstances he was in he's probably not acting unfairly or at least he's not overshooting by much. Given what we know how WWX powers work the soldiers he killed in early days of his involvement in the war really earned it - essentially he let the ghost with the grudges have their way with the soldiers. Now we know that according to his standards a ghost a vicious ghost kills once in seven days, we additionally know that resentful dead are more likely to attack people who wronged them. What did those people, an army of cultivators, had to do to be taken out by ghost in span of single night, especially given they should be able to take care of this type of danger.

You don't massacre armies engaging in hostilities ("A massacre is an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenceless").

The situations in which JC tells WWX "hey don't do that, it's a bad idea" fall into two categories:

Inconsequential teenage shenanigans JC often participates in anyway (this is a result of JC being a victim of emotional abuse from his mother, but still pretty toxic)

the situation in which decisions WWX makes are necessary and they'd be fucked over worse as a result if he didn't (but it's usually the first).

WWX has much better understanding of action and inaction than other boys his age given that he's far more often exposed to those consequences. JC is particularly short-sighted as a result of his refusal to consider wellbeing of people he doesn't share a significant relation with. WWX is the bigger picture guy, but the problem is JC's perspective is so incredibly truncated he's not able to recognise it.

Moreover, WWX doesn't really have self-sacrifacial tendencies lol. He merely understands that taking risk and making sacrifices are necessary when it comes to surviving and ensure the safety of others. He doesn't push other people to make sacrifices, but he also doesn't have means to ensure others do their part. He's a very proficient moral decision maker and as such he's able to take responsibility and act (as an ethicist I'm positively floored with him).

JC knows relatively well WWX but his knowledge is merely surface level. He'd be able to anticipate how WWX would act, but he couldn't be able to comprehend why. He cares so much for WWX, he wants to protect him, WWX is his, but he does not respect him.

Meanwhile, the foundation of relationship between WWX and LWJ is that they are moral equals. LWJ wouldn't necessarily ba able to predict how WWX would act, but unlike JC he would know where WWX is coming from.

"Imo JC had like 90% justifiable actions;

He tried to get WWX to be low-key and a non-threat so the sects would leave him alone

Visited him and discussed with WWX a deal where WWX gets to remain in Yiling without issue or question from the greater sects

He's the only person who properly, explicitly spoke FOR the Wens

Still kept in touch with him after the defection, took JYL to see him, likely was involved in making JZX invite WWX to Jin Ling's one-month celebration"

Hardly so:

That's a terrible idea that would put WWX and Jiang as long as WWX was associated with them in more danger. The problem was that WWX wasn't seen as enough treat to leave him alone. They already knew WWX has something they want, being seen as at threat is one of the very few things that give him at least a partial protection without active use of violence.

he literally proclaimed WWX the enemy of the Cultivation World. Being seen as a potential treat is good, being seen as an enemy not so much. Politically, cutting WWX was explicitly a mistake brought by his own insecurities. He weakened his own position by doing that.

He shut up on the fist signs of opposition. LQY brought up concerns of procedural justice and he completely failed to even acknowledge that.

He cares for WWX so much, yet he won't do right be him.

That to say their falling apart was long time coming and their difference irreconcilable.

Sure JC is the product of the system, the product of abuse, but LWJ and WWX aren't any less subjected to the system, differentiates them from him and most other characters in the story, is that they are able to go beyond that.

Any time JC antis start coming for him and his reaction to what WWX did, I always want to ask them to do the "Lan Clan Test". Basically, replace the Jiang family deaths with Lan family deaths. Instead of Jin Zixuan dying by Wen Ning's hand, say it's Lan Qiren. At Nightless City, imagine it's Lan Xichen who's mourning his uncle that's searching for Lan Wangji, and WWX accidentally kills LXC.

Like really picture Lan Xichen dying in Lan Wangji's arms, telling him heartfelt words assured of his death and Lan Wangji's like "Hey please fix this, please stop this" to Wei Wuxian and WWX is like "wait wait I can fix this I swear I swear!".

Okay how would you expect Lan Wangji to react to that? Ngl if he still somehow thinks of Wei Wuxian as entirely blameless and holds zero resentment towards WWX after that, I would lose my respect for LWJ and I don't think LWJ would react like that anyways. The person you love whom you warned against taking this path has chosen to disregard anything you say(pr even his closest people like Jiang Cheng say) and has now lost all control and has killed all that's left of your family. Who WOULDN'T lose it at least a little? Who wouldn't hold resentment or anger or frustration?

Jiang Cheng made mistakes but he's not uniquely evil. He was right to have felt anger towards Wei Wuxian because bro in his eyes, Wei Wuxian COULD control that. Only we as audience know the extent of loss of control. And even if JC realized WWX can't control it, he begged WWX time and time again to stop Demonic Cultivation. Trying to flatten this situation into a "he's wrong, he's right, case closed" is the worst thing you can do in MDZS.