#and especially a lot of ppl just dont get that romance doesnt automatically make a dynamic better or more deep

[arolesbianism]

(off anon so that it notifies me if you respond) you are so so so so so so so so real with your prsk/bandori ship preferences. unspeakably real

It's my aromantic swag 👍

[jubberry]

oohkay let's go tua with those ship asks: fiveya, horrance and alluther.

thanks el i love you

Send me a ship and I'll answer three questions based on if I ship it or not.

fiveya obvs i ship this since this is 90% of my tua drawings lol

1. ill wait ill wait (to be the one) by georgiestauffenberg made me ship it cause holy fuck dude. I dont know if i ship them romantically when i saw them onscreen cause first of all, age difference is kinda weird lmao. Second, they dont rlly interact much outside literally the first couple of eps. But he was so soft for her, and i felt like they had so much unexplored history.

so i looked at fanfics cause i was wondering if ppl still ship it, then i liked the description of this one so i gave it a go.

Basically the premise is that vanya dates a much older man who seems to know a lot about her. And it was amazingly in character and just provided their characters some depth that u wouldnt find outside of a romantic relationship between them. (The implication of five pining while she doesnt know who he is, their missed chances when he time travelled, fives missed chances of living and having a 'normal' life bec of his own hubris, vanyas insecurity and being able to open up bec shes with someone whos known her since childhood). Its so sweet and thats how i was like, oh yep i can do so much more with these two, and what has kept me interested in drawing them etc.

2. My favourite things are the shippers cause i made some friends in the fandom who are super cool and supportive! I dont get super involved in fandoms and usually just watch from afar so finding people to talk to and muck around with in this tiny fandom is super cool 😭

Though thats not to say I havent come across some bad apples in this fandom and things that I dont like. I think thats the importance of carving out a place for yourself and ur friends in fandom tho.

Another thing I like about the ship itself, i just like the grumpy person whos soft for one person trope. Its so cute. I like all the little clues in canon on how their relationship as kids is quite warm, which is interesting cause five is basically the star student and he can be quite cold vs vanya who is the black sheep of the family.

I also like how five likes her powers even when she caused the apocalypse he spent the majority of his life in lol. Like its a popular hc that five is just a wife guy and i love that.

I see vanya as the type who has a lot of love to give, and she sometimes has unrealistic expectations of what her partner can give. Betrayal and lies really angers her, but also when her partner cannot meet her expectations of love she gets very upset bec its also an indication of how shes not good enough, or not loveable enough to be able to have this in the relationship (her insecurity means every failing always comes back to her, even if its out of her control).

I feel like five would be a level-headed person enough in the relationship to not be afraid to say 'vanya ur being stupid' (ie. the s2 confrontation lmao). Also, five's personality means she will never have to doubt his actions bec she knows hes the type who will not give u the moment of the day if hes not interested.

Not to mention they also have the whole apocalypse vs. saviour, hero/villain thing. Theres just a lot to explore!

3. I probably have several. But mostly I dont mind five being a dick to vanya bec first, even if the appeal is hes soft to her hes already kind of a dick in canon lmao. Also, vanya isnt a child. Shes grown and she can handle petty af things like five telling her shes not good at cooking lol. I also dont mind it cause I feel like people are getting too afraid to write... conflict for fear or portraying an abusive relationship or smth. Like, chill. Conflict is fine, resolving it is how u get a story. However in saying that, nobody should be obligated to write any way unless you want to! Fanfic is for comfort so if what your doing is making u happy then its good enough!

horrance which i also ship but i love the platonic and romantic relationship equally:

1. I came in tua in general not shipping anything so Im honestly not sure. I do remember someone doing a meta before s2 came out that was basically how ben acted weird when klaus summoned dave in s1 that made me go 👀 Otherwise, tua s2 rlly made me like them cause tua FED horrance shippers. Like..... the fact that klaus didnt want ben to leave him, and ben knows thats why he stayed 😢 or the fact that klaus was all over him for some reason???? Somebody also mentioned gay ben once and I resonate with that deeply. Like i get that jill exists but i resonate with gay ben deeply.

2. I love their bickering, theyre so cute together. I just like ben being angry bec hes self aware that hes got both shit and amazing taste. Shit bec he cant believes he likes Klaus (and also amazing also bec Klaus). I think the idea of them being kind of underdogs, theyre not rlly leader types and dont want to be, helps them bond together even in platonic horrance. They're both down to earth, and even tho they can annoy each other, they also know if they want a space to feel comfortable its with each other. Theyre not pressured by rivalry over leadership, or any sort of competition.

I love the idea that even tho ben is like klaus's ''conscience'', hes also down for chaos and bitchy. I feel like klaus rlly enabled that side of him, its not exactly a good thing but its p funny lol

3. I know some people think their dynamic is unhealthy but i dont care lol

alluther. So id say i dont ship this, mostly due to the fact that im not invested? Just like all tua ships so far I rlly came out not wanting anything but platonic relationships cause I feel tua doesnt do romance very well. With alluther, theyre so cute but im not super invested in either of their chars so they havent stuck for me. I appreciate seeing them and talking about them tho, and I'm def open to exploring them further.

1. I think tua canon romances are just so lackluster 😔 Idk who writes the romances but I was just like 'nice' but afterwards I dont really think about them. I love their dance scene and the message behind it! Otherwise, theyre sweet like most of the tua romances but im not super invested, same with all the non canon ships.

2. I really feel like tua needs to decide on what their relationship is. Like, just say its incest or not and stick with it 👀 Or if you wanna support it or not, just make up ur mind. I think I would've liked it better if I found the characters more interesting. Allison especially I feel like suffers from the fact that tua just doesn't want to make her ''mean''. They want to make her supportive and are less interested in making her flawed (ie. she should've had a conflict with Vanya in s2, but the writers didnt want to write the girls fighting which is stupid imo and not what that conflict is about).

In regards to Alluther, the scene where Allison gets annoyed at Luther for sleeping with someone else felt out of line. Like, how are you marrying other people and moving on but Luther isn't allowed to? But honestly, I don't mind if they actually just acknowledge it and make it a deliberate part of Allison's trait that Allison can expect a certain loyalty automatically from other people (which can tie in to her childhood being a star, and the rumour).

Luther is a big simp for Allison, which is sweet, but at the same time it would be nice to have him explore himself for a bit, and who he is outside of the academy. Then maybe they can rekindle their relationship again as new people and see where they go from there.

3. I don't hate them, but they're ok. I'm not super invested in them, just like all the tua canon romance. But I wouldn't mind making content for them if I were a bit more invested in their characters. I love their dance scene in s1 and I feel like its super a underrated portrayal of what their relationship is meant to be. I know no one talks about it but it's just such a great scene, and I'm pretty sure the choreographer was into interpretive dance? The scene had a lot of meaning that I don't see people dig around with.

Essentially I'm pretty sure the fairy lights are obviously a throwback to their childhood together, spending time outside of Reggie. So the dance scene kind of symbolized that pocket of space they made for each other in their life (even if theyre far away, or with other people, they will always have that space for each other).

The way they danced was more like playfighting than dancing, which means their relationship isn't sensual. It's more ''pure'', and romantic. Its basically two kids rekindling their love as adults. I also think this is a response to the incest, cause in s1 tua klaus literally said that 'thank god Regg is not their real father' right before Allison and Luther meet lmao. So its kinda like saying Allison x Luther isnt supposed to be 'ohh step sibling hot' but two people who experienced the same trauma as kids and finding comfort with each other (and rekindling that love after many years).

[janiedean]

@nederys all of you guys kinda lost your shit but i don't think you're being consistent at all. you didn't go for it being misinformed or wrongly placed, just that it was "gross" bc it was "romanticizing" blabla, like if someone made a fic about ETA terrorists or whatever and i advocated censorship and asked for it not to exist. when you accept kink and RPF, you need to stand on that principle even when it's YOUR personal/national. shaming ppl into submission is the anti strategy and it doesnt actually convince anybody of anything, much literally if it's screaming in another language to the OPs. i didnt wanna reblog or anything but i was very unpleasantly surprised with how you guys handled the situation (and i say this bc i care and i know you value rationality, not to piss you off YOUR personal/national sensibility like if someone wants to write a fic 'romanticizing' tec bundy murders or a rape fantasy or whatever it's their field day just tag it properly, it's no different for a criminal organization as i see it. a piece of sexual fantasy or literary work is not a guarantee it's portrayed in an accurate way or that it's a moral endorsementj + I'll hear your argument on 'positive representation' so i'll take your word for now but it did really come of like "your evil porn is romanticizing evil irl so it should be censored". as for the bad taste etc thing - as long as the person in question doesn't find out i dont personally see the harm. other ppl getting second-handed distastefulness/offense about it is a slippery slope, bc again that quickly devolves into "ugh why you write about rape! / rpf! if you can write kink porn and you can do rpf (like i mean, what, we just tweak the hair color and the initials to make it 'fictional'?) - it follows you can write "distasteful" kink porn about rpf all you want. it's still fiction.okay in order

In order:

as I said in the other reply, people lost their shit because we’ve had this discussion for years and every time it happens SOMEONE (most likely american but not necessarily) shows yup informing us that since mafia in US english means generally organized crime and not THAT specific organized crime we need to chill and WHO CARES YOU’RE OVERREACTING. at some point there’s a limit to how much nice you can be when you’ve been trying nicely for years and people just dismiss you most likely also because you’re not poc enough to complain - again, when it happens with people who can fall into the POC definition doing this kinda stuff automatically means you’re racist, but with us it’s not even disrespectful? or recognized as potentially harmful? fine, we lost our shit, but it’s also not the first time it happens;

the point isn’t that they were making a fic about the mafia, but if we take the ETA terrorism similitude, it wasn’t ‘making a fic abut ETA’. it was, ‘we are making an RPF fic where we take a real living spanish actor who has a friend who died during an ETA bombing and we make him the commander of an ETA faction which plants a bomb in madrid’. I’d find it distasteful if it was about FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, but whatevr - it’s fictional. real people who are actually involved with those criminals on the other side? not so cool. and the fact that these people see nothing wrong with casting them as criminals for *the mafia* shows they have no idea of what they’re talking about and again, with fictional people you can try to ignore it (even if it irks me also because 90% of the time it shows a total failure of understanding the character just by casting them as mafiosi but never mind that’s my pet peeve), but real ones? who made a pro lgbt movie and are *allies* when a mafia killing actually was what kickstarted the creation of the hugest and first anti-homophobia/pro-gay lgbtq association in italy? like. that’s fucking with real people and honestly if I was the director and knew I’d feel personally slandered especially if I come from someplace where statistically everyone knows someone who’s been hurt by the mafia in the last fifty years if they weren’t themselves. like I had a friend whose father worked for the police and the antimafia division especially and lived in palermo back in the day and criminals did try to grab her out of her pre-school and they had to change cities VERY quickly after that, and I don’t even live in sicily. and she’s not even sicilian. it was twenty years ago when they planted bombs across the entire area and killed hundreds of people just in the 90s (comprehensive list). it’s not just WRITING FIC ABOUT THE MAFIA, which I could be relatively handwaving with if it was about fictional people and even then it irks me to hell and back, but real people? who make movies pro things that the mafia hates? really? and I have to hear ‘are you angry because you’re homophobes’? I don’t ask for it NOT TO EXIST, I’m asking a basic modicum of decency.

ted bundy vs mafia: ted bundy is ONE person and he’s been convicted and whatever. if someone’s personal fantasy is fucking ted bundy WHATEVER their problem. if THEY want to do the self-insert with real criminals whatever, idgi but if they’re aware of the implications whatever. the mafia is a bunch of people and they thrive on positive media representation and it’s such large scale that it fucks with this entire country on multiple levels (ad also other countries) and here you’re not using real criminals, you’re casting as criminals people who most likely have been hurt by that same organization. it’s a difference. and if you portray it as a nice organization where hey you help people bypassing the law and gay people are accepted it’s... just... not how it works.

rpf: I’m generally pro rpf as long as people don’t go to the actual real people and don’t harass them irl (which would make a lot of rpf shippers inappropriate) but like... idk if you were around in spn fandom at the time of the infamous j2 haiti fic, but if you weren’t, tldr: person sees the aftermath of the haiti earthquake on tv, thinks ‘well that’d make a perfect setting for my j2 bigbang fic’, writes an entire fic where jared and jensen go to haiti the month it happened, her artist makes art for it photoshopping those two over like... real pictures of real dead people and three betas don’t find nothing remotely cringy in this concept. the fic gets published. it gets slandered to hell and back and while I didn’t agree on assuming the author was a pre-trump (she most likely had no idea that stuff was kindaaa racist) and that she should have been educated, I’d like to presume that people would think thrice before setting a Romance Story TM on a background where when it was published people were still excavating corpses from the rubble. it’s about the same concept as the romantic mafia fic. but with the haiti fic anyone on tumblr would agree that it’s hardly appropriate, with mafia fic it’s just ‘meh shut up you’re whining’. also, while I do agree that jared and jensen, as famous people, signed up for this, too, I don’t really think using real people for this kind of thing is fair, educated or a favor to them. I get it’s all fantasy and so on, but at least use the fictional characters. I can imagine j2 wouldn’t be happy with knowing noncon fic where they’re protagonists exists, neither with the haiti fic, but the noncon is standard fandom kink and whatever and no one else is involved, the haiti fic DOES. and while the people in those pictures wouldn’t even know, if that’s what you jerk off to at least be aware that it’s not exactly tasteful. and the people mentioned had zero idea that jerking off to the *mafia* au is not tasteful and that the *mafia* is *not* random organized crime. no one would have a problem if they called them CRIMINALS or mob or whatever without using the specific mafia word, but they like it because AESTHETICS which 90% of the time aren’t even true because the godfather aesthetic is so NOT the camorra aesthetic it’s not even funny. and of course we shoudl educate people instead, too bad that if it’s about haiti they listen and if it’s about us, they don’t;

 kink: same as above but like, again, let’s always use the poor j2 guys. the j2 mafia au as above is absolutely ew to me but at least j2 are american and most likely didn’t grow up somewhere the mafia could kill their relatives or friends. guadagnino did. and whether he knows or not (HOPEFULLY HE NEVER FINDS OUT) it’s another level of disrespectful to take a guy who made a pro lgbt movie you liked and putting him in that scenario without being aware of it. and they don’t listen if you tell them. that’s the problem. I can be very tolerant, but good god at least hear people out on the subject. and if it concerns a situation that isn’t even old or a dead organization but one that’s thriving in the country still and fucks people over every day I’d like for these people to recognize that at least it’s something not cool and not just their jerk off fodder material. at this point do the GODFATHER AU, which is what they want anyway, stick with the american mafia and try to not give them positive rep, because this idea of the mafia as a cool thing plays a major role in actual mafia organization marketing themselves as a good thing and makes the work of people actually fighting them way harder. if no one thought it was cool, it wouldn’t have half the influence it has. but do I ever see mafia aus with cops or conflicted henchmen or the likes? nah. it’s all SAD ROMANTIC BACKSTORY WITH CRIMINALS. call it some other way. it’s not asking that much.

also: I am entirely down with mafia stories in media and stuff - again, I ove my sopranos and boardwalk empire and goodfellas and I actually do like the godfather when a lot of people here at this point hate it too, but none of those things make it look like it’s palatable to be in the mafia. people can jerk off to it I suppose, but at least they should be aware of that. lowering the bar, it’s why I get pissed at people passing jc as a healthy nice relationship - at least own up to your badwrong and don’t sugarcoat it. in this case they don’t even own up to the fact that it’s a real thing that hurts real people, never mind caring for the feelings of the people they’re fans of - I could jerk off to my rpf faves in anything but I’d like to know I’m not doing it to something they would loathe, and if you have to at least use the fictional characters as the jerk-off material. I mean I’d feel uncomfortable af using them as jerk-off material to something I know they as people would hate. obviously I’m pro write whatever you want, but I’m also pro ‘be aware of what you’re doing and know you’re possibly jerking off to things that are actually harmful to a lot of people and if you do and are cool with that whatever but at least try to not make it look as it’s a good thing’ while at the same time assuming that someone who tells you it’s not cool is doing it because they’re HOMOPHOBES when the mafia is the most homophobic organization in existence or close to it. we do need positive rep when it comes to mafia stories and we never get it.

like, final example: if I had seen one ‘steve rogers is a cop who wants to take down the mafia-like organization’ for every ten ‘tiny boss steve rogers and his russian henchman bucky are THE POWER COUPLE OF THE NY CRIME SCENE AND THEY KISS IN FRONT OF EVERYONE AND HELP THE WEAK WHEN THE POLICE SUCKS ASS’ fics I ran into it’d be lovely, but the point is that I’ve never seen one such fic even if it’s a lot more IC for steve rogers to take down criminals than being a criminal, and if you make people notice that nicely (which we did more than once) the usual answer is ‘go fuck yourself it’s just aesthetics the mafia doesn’t hurt anyone’ when it actually did, does and will do as long as they have means to, and since this recasting of canonically good characters as *mafia* henchmen who are happy to be there and not itching to get out just really makes pass the concept that the mafia isn’t really that bad I think I/we affected people have the rights to point out that it’s already a distasteful thing that people should at least read about before assuming it’s random organized crime that can be substituted for whichever worldbuilding they like, and if they don’t care for that fine, at least avoid involving real people who actually would loathe that irl in it or, if anything, at least recognize that it’s fucked up to hell and back. and none of the people in that thread had the grace to do that.

I mean, obviously if I had to take the choice between one such fic not existing at all but censoring stuff and it existing without censoring stuff I’d pick the latter even if I absolutely don’t like it, but what irks me and the other people involved in this debate is how nonchalantly people do these recasting assuming that they’re not romanticizing the thing (which they’re doing) and then don’t listen to others when they’re pointed out that they’re doing it and they should be aware.

like, again, I think the haiti fic was a thing that no one with some salt in their brain and a basic amount of decency should have published. someone did. they got criticized for it and it sprung a lot of discussion (including comparing it with a gen kill fic set in east timor during the war which actually did it right and so no one actually thought it was exploiting a tragedy or being in bad taste) and tbh I think that when doing fic about serious things you should at least read up on that. but the point is that these people don’t listen, haven’t listened for years and most likely will keep on not listening and sorry but seeing a person from palermo who shoots movies that would make any cosa nostra boss mad being recast as a cosa nostra/mafia sicilian boss who, if compared to a, uh, real life person who died recently would deal with people seceding from this organization by ordering to kidnap their children and have them dissolved in acid at the ripe age of nine is really goddamned distateful and hearing ‘so your problem is that they’re gay is that why you’re so angry’ as a response instead of reading it and thinking ‘damn maybe that was a bit out of line’ isn’t exactly that great.

especially because again, these organization thrive on people assuming they’re less bad than they actually are and we’re not talking about stuff that happened three hundred years ago - the kid dissolved in acid happened in 1996 and it’s hardly the last time something like that happened. it’s not a general crime organization, it’s a very specific one, and I’ll be fine with people jerking off to any italian stereotype in existence while I roll my eyes and be fine with it, but at least I’d like these people to know what they’re doing. and they aren’t. and they should be. and on top of that some positive rep where the mafia people are inherently bad and the good guys want to take them down would be nice. I do get that it looks like I’m being incoherent but I’m not saying they can’t do it, I’m saying they should show a minimum of consideration, and they aren’t. then no one’s stopping them from doing it of course but just the fact that they-won’t-listen kind of says a lot. :/ and when it comes to real people and real things it’s not just fiction and you should at least be aware of that.