swen699

[forcedsense]

I feel like my only state of mind as a c/omic m/arvel fan is: D/isney why the fuck are you disrespecting S/haron C/arter like this 

[dilfdoctordoom]

I've been compiling my thoughts on your response to my initial message about Babs' disability, because like you said it's a pretty complex issue(also I had no idea until now that the ask system ceased to limit one's message length!):

I've seen folks point out how it's come off as 'unrealistic' to them that Babs remained in a wheelchair pre-N52 when she lived in a universe filled with crazily advanced tech(I don't wanna include magic too since that somehow seems like more of a copout to me), with some of that actively applied to certain characters, like Cyborg. I mean, I remember the one issue of BOP where Babs gets her walking back temporarily & she's ecstatic about it, so what *is* stopping her? I've sometimes wondered why Wonder Woman doesn't lend the use of the "Purple Healing Ray" to Babs, since IIRC they were friends during her Oracle days? I've seen people suggest maybe because it could shorten human lifespans while curing ailments/injuries, though Idk if it's ever been explained that way in canon, while I also don't know for sure if Wonder Woman has shared it with Man's World for that same purpose. I gotta read more DC comics to catch up.

I don't usually ponder this side of the topic heavily because like how I just suggested, there is likely a number of valid workarounds to these sorts of questions, because what really mattered was the profound message it sent to readers seeing Babs become Oracle. Personally, the only big reason I think about this now is because I originally knew Babs best from the DCAU, so seeing the events of TKJ play out for Babs always seemed particularly rough to me =P I get that it's Moore's writing style, ala Watchmen, but jeez that's Barbara Gordon!(It's weird to think how if that comic wasn't written or at least made canon, where would Babs have ended up? She'd given up being Batgirl at that point after all) What if it was further down the in-universe timeline when Babs would get a hold of a recovery method, like the Batman Beyond period? It might be more expected that med-tech would advance enough for that, since we also get skycars and a Batsuit that can do basically anything. Would that be any different? I'm mostly just letting my thoughts wander.

Going under the cut for this.

Barbara Gordon is a fictional character. Barbara Gordon has no real autonomy; she does not have wants or desires. Any thoughts or feelings she does have are given to her by writers and artists that work on her character. It's critical to establish that first -- Babs is an excellent character, but she is still just a character.

I remember the one issue of BOP where Babs gets her walking back temporarily & she's ecstatic about it, so what *is* stopping her?

A better question: why does she need to get her walking back? We've had about a decade that proves it certainly doesn't help her character. Babs doesn't exist and when writers erase her disability 'because she's happier', the message for disabled people is this: being disabled = unhappiness. Everything done with this character has an intent behind it. There is a message to all these stories.

There was a message to Oracle. There was a message to Barbara fuckin' Gordon coming back from fridging (I've seen the debate on if TKJ was fridging -- it was, by definition. 'The killing, assault or maiming of a female character to forward a man's pain', that was what happened to Babs and the intent of the story was to fridge her). There was a message to her staying disabled and be an active, respected and beloved hero.

And like there are messages there, there are also messages in erasing that disability. Asking 'what's stopping her [from not being disabled]?' is missing the point entirely. Comparing her to Cyborg is also... very much not okay. I believe I mentioned it before in the last ask on the topic, but disabled people are not a monolith and Victor Stone is also disabled.

What's stopping her? According to DC, absolutely nothing... and we've all seen how ableist that story is. There is absolutely no reason that we can't have a disabled superhero. Out of universe reasons don't apply. That's something I want to stress: you cannot apply the reasons of a real person onto a fictional character to justify ableism.

Another important thing to note, that often gets cast aside: if it weren't for Oracle appearing in Suicide Squad, Barbara Gordon would've been forgotten. Like, let's be real -- DC's reaction to the character being shot and maimed was, verbatim, "shoot the bitch". Babs was going to fade away into obscurity. The only reason Babs didn't is that Ostrander and Co refused to let it happen. I know people love to stress how important Barbara was as Batgirl before TKJ happened... she was not important in the eyes of DC. To them, she had had her time and what happened in the TKJ, and the subsequent lapse in her appearances afterwards, were all more than acceptable.

Where would Babs have ended up? Comics limbo, if she was lucky. A cautionary tale. An eternally tragic figure. The list goes on and never goes anywhere good.

[elfdyke]

Literally the only bad part about of bop was that shit they did to Cass. But that gets glossed over bc “omg wombens bad at making movies fuckin’ feminists” is the only criticism these people are capable of

its bc the wide majority of bop haters dont care abt disabled characters 💖

and yea i agree i wish cass' selective mutism wasnt erased. id be ok with them having her be a pretty different character, bc in dc media its pretty common to have a lot if different takes on characters, but they coulda kept her experiencing that disability imo! and ik its from her literally not being taught how to speak but i think it would work to modify it so she experiences it bc the foster system can be so traumatizing. just my 2 cents!

[secretsocietyxmen]

Thing of note:

In all of the BoP Stan posts I’ve seen, people run around talking about how great the cast is, and how awesome all the women are. However, I’ve yet to see a post talking about the impact Cass had on the film.

The changes made to Cassandra Cain as a character are, without a doubt, the most controversial in the entire production. But, unlike say the changes to Helena or Dinah, I don’t see anyone defending this version of her. Now, why is that?

From what I can tell, aside from being the main catalyst for the story, she doesn’t really... do anything noteworthy. I’ve seen people say that her role could have been filled by Bruce the Hyena and the plot didn’t have to change much. And they’re right.

In an attempt to change her from being a “stereotype” (which she never was), they pretty much made Cassandra Cain a MacGuffin, which is just trading one set of cliches for another. We went from a surprisingly snarky feral badass who could fight Batman, to a plot device. One that had her mental disabilities erased for good measure.

Yeah, I don’t like what was done to her, and I don’t like it being ignored by Stans missing the reason it’s a problem. 

[a-little-slice-of-fandom]

I love BOP but I think it really missed a great opportunity for ASL representation. In the comic books Cassandra Cain was never taught to speak (her father was an arsehole) and at least once communicated via ASL. I mean her characterization was different in the movie was unrecognizable from the comics, but I feel as though they should've kept that.

Hey sweetheart!

Honestly I agree 100 percent. I think that Birds of Prey did a fantastic job of adapating Harley, Dinah, Helena and Renee from their comic book counterparts. They’re definitely different versions of the characters and their dynamics have changed somewhat (I think Dinah and Helena are the most different to their comic book versions and their relationship is completely different) but they’re still recognisably the same characters and I actually think that the changes that they made work. I think the mutual respect that Dinah and Helena have is far better and a much more feminist take on their dynamic when compared to say JLU.

But then there’s Cass...and I honestly don’t know how to feel about her. I don’t really know much about Cass from the comics (I don’t dislike her or anything, I’ve just came across many comics that include her. I’m more of a Stephanie Brown fan personally) but I know enough to feel mixed on her in the film.

The general character of BOP!Cass is generally well written (she feels a bit like a plot device sometimes but she’s generally well rounded, likeable and funny and has interesting dynamics with the whole team) and Ella Jay Basco is a really great actress in my opinion. Child/teen actors can be a little hit or miss for me, but I have no complaints when it comes to Ella Jay Basco and I really hope she gets more roles in the future! But she just isn’t Cassandra Cain from the comics, I’m sorry. And I understand they wanted to have some form of batgirl included in Birds of Prey (it should have been Barbara, and that’s another one of my gripes with the film) but Cass is just so jarring for me? I can’t really say if her personality is anything like the Cassandra in the comics, but her backstory is like...completely different. And that’s so confusing because they did so well with Dinah and Helena? I’m honestly not exaggerating when I say this: it feels like they wrote Cass’s character with the intention of her being an adaptation of Stephanie and last minute just decided to change the name. Am I the only one who thinks BOP!Cass feels way more like Steph than comic book Cassandra or am I just crazy?

I have seen some people argue that as the director of Birds of Prey, Cathy Yan, is Chinese-American (as far as I know), she wanted to steer away from the stereotypes and I do acknowledge that argument and I’m fully aware that comic book Cassandra does rely on a lot of stereotypes. It’s a complicated situation, and personally I’m the least qualified person to discuss these issues so if anyone wants to add on to this post please do feel free, but I don’t think just erasing the fact that Cassandra was mute in the comics is the way to go about tackling said stereotypes. Again, I don’t want to speak over anyone in this discussion and I welcome any additions or corrections to this post. I’m the least qualified person to talk about this. I absolutely don’t mean to cause offence with this post and I’m so incredibly sorry if I have.

Also where was Barbara Gordon??? She founded the birds of prey and Oracle is one of my favourite comic book characters of all time! When you put the complete overhaul of cassandra’s character and the fact that they didn’t include Barbara Gordon at all...it starts to look a bit like they just didn’t want any characters with disabilities in the film. And I think that birds of prey was such an amazing film for empowering so many women, but I just wish it could help empower all women.

[safitheartist]

For all Cass and Barbara fans who will have to deal with shit from abelists with no actual knowledge of who they are and what they stand for as a characters after BoP: I feel for you and I hope your fandom experience won't ever be as abusive and filed with hate as mine was growing up in this fandom.

Cass is a great character who deserved to be represented properly, including his disability. Babara is a iconic Character who as Oracle was in her absolute prime and should have been in this movie as a positive disabled lead figure recovering from abuse, and I want every disabled fan of these characters to know that you are loved, that you do deserve representation, that asking for a physically disabled lead isn't too much, nor is it to ask for a neurodivergent lead, that DC is wrong for what they did in this movie and that you have every right to be mad at them and WB for deciding to change or erase these characters.

Please no matter what names you are called, what accusations you hear from people, what ugly things you have to endure, please know that there are people who support you, that there are people who think you are lovely and deserve to be included, that you can infact be heros just as much as any abledbodied person and or neurotypical person, no matter how often they try to erase you.

[battlestar-royco]

My two cents on Birds of Prey is that Harley was humanized, but not redeemed. You can acknowledge that some people genuinely hurt, even abused, someone who isn't a good person, like Harley. I also think that it was absolutely horrible that Cass's disability was erased, but also that people are harsher on her than versions of white characters whose disabilities were erased. (I'm Southeast Asian and hearing-impaired, by the way.) I still like Cass a lot while being upset about the erasure.

Yeah I would agree with all of this. I think a good redemption would include: realizing you’re in the wrong, a willingness and drive to do better, and evidence of moral growth from point A to point Z. In BOP, Harley certainly knows but doesn’t care that she’s in the wrong. She doesn’t show a willingness to improve because she continues to harm people throughout the movie---for all sorts of reasons, better or worse. Her moral growth is in her attitude toward Cass: in the end Harley views her not as a commodity but as a person. So it’s less of a redemption arc than it is an arc about how Harley becomes trustful enough to take a street urchin under her wing.

And as for the audience reception of Cass erasure, I’ve definitely noticed people are willing to pan this movie and the director for what they did to Cass (and everyone has a right to do that). But some of these same people are dead silent on white dude directors and writers who engage in the same exact erasure or even more erasure and maltreatment of women.

[rootbeergoddess]

Concerning BOP, the only actual early criticism that has any merit how they erase Cassandra Cain’s disability.

That’s it.

And the only people who have this criticism seem to be fans of the character. The people complaining about Margot Robbie, about how Harley isn’t going to be tied to the Joker, how she’s being independent and how Black Canary was race bent seems to be coming from people who are just mad that we’re getting a movie that doesn’t focus on dudes.

And I know people are upset that Batgirl isn’t in the movie but they had been planning her own movie for a while now.

[sour-teeth]

I’m pretty sure most fans who are super gung-ho about “Dick Grayson is Romani and POC and you are Racist if you disagree” have never actually read the source material for it (Nightwing 96) because it is VERY bad. Like, irredeemably bad in terms of stereotyping and racism. 

When BoP came out, SO MANY people were defending Cassandra Cain’s disability getting erased because “her character is racist!!!!1!” but no one mentions how Dick being Romani is racist. And honestly, Dick getting characterized as Romani is WAY worse because:

1. Cass has always been Asian and Dick being Romani was retconned literal decades after his character had been established.

2. Cass started out as a racist trope, but if you pick up (almost) any issue of Batgirl 2000 you’ll see that she was developed well beyond that. Dick was made Romani in a way that was racist, and idk if anything productive/progressive/even interesting has come about from him being Romani.

3. Kelley Puckett (one of Cass’ creators) said in an interview that he made Cass half Asian because he has a half Asian daughter and he wanted her to see herself in a character. That’s at least SOMETHING, because Devin Grayson probably went “let’s make Dick Romani because… racism.”

(Also, just so we're clear, Cass having a disability is not inherently racist, but saying that it IS is ableist.)

And I get that not everyone in fandom reads comics - which is fine - but it really sucks to see fans care way more about a male character who was white for most of his existence (and whose characterization as a POC is VERY racist (AND who is still functionally white)) than about a female character who has ALWAYS been POC (who also gets ripped to shreds when her CANONICAL DISABILITY gets erased).

Like, with regards to "Dick Grayson is Romani" I’m willing to cut some slack to fans who are younger and/or POC, but damn if that still doesn’t leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[our-happygirl500-fan]

Can DC please stop erasing Barbara and Cassandra's dissabilities in order to give them Steph's character traits!? It's insulting to all three batgirls! Just use Steph!

Okay I feel like I should start this off by saying that I’m *excited* to see Cass in the Birds of Prey movie she is literally the only reason I’m going to watch it and Cass deserves to be the first Batkid in a cinematic universe especially after all the BS she’s had to endure since 2005 all that being said I do not what BoP have done with her at all erasing her canon disabilities for no reason what so ever.

I’ve seen a lot of Steph fans say that Steph would have been a better fit for the role they seem to be presenting Cass as since Steph herself in a lower Gotham Street wise kid with the largest connection to Black Mask outside of Jason and since she was raised by criminals it isn’t as horrifying to see her do something like accidentally kill someone like it is to watch someone called Cass do it.

That being said I understand why DC used Cass, there are more Cass fans than there are Steph fans but they could have easily made Cass a Gotham street kid and give her her canon disabilities and I’m really upset by that.

That being said I’m excited to see Cass on the big screen because I want it to do well so Cass will appear more in comics (I’m terrified of the movie influencing Cass in the comics though).

All that being said I am getting a little tired of people calling Barbara since the N52 ‘ginger Steph’ because it keeps on reminding me that the only time DC ever cared about Steph was 2009-2011 and I couldn’t even completely enjoy that period because Cass wasn’t even there!

Ugh how badass would it have been for Cass to have come back from Hong Kong and trained Steph along with Barbara? They would have really been team Batgirl then.

But getting back on track while I do agree that Cass’s character in the BoP movie does feel like a better fit for Steph can we please please just enjoy Cass being in cinemas without bringing Steph into it because Cass deserves it, Steph deserves it too yes but like let’s enjoy Cass for now the main thing we should be upset by above all else about Cass’s canon disabilities being taken away as Cass is one of the few autistic representations in comics that isn’t evil or insulting and DC ignoring and erasing that is what we should all be most upset about. 

[gamesception]

Sception Reads Cassandra Cain, part 0: BoP & a reading list

So since my Demon’s Souls live(ish) blog died, I’ve been looking for something else to blog about, just to keep up momentum/have some structure to my week/do something apart from veg out in front of youtube during my free time.  While contemplating what to do, I happened to make it out to see the Birds of Prey movie, partially since I was a fan of the original run of the Cassandra Cain Batgirl title back in the day, and after a long stretch when the character seemed to be blackballed by an editorial staff who seemed to hate her it was surprising to me that any version of the character made it into any sort of screen adaptation...

Overall I rather enjoyed the film.  Robbie is still great as Harle Quinn and it was nice to see her version of the character in a movie that wasn’t hot garbage otherwise.  The other characters were all fun, too.  Mary Elizabeth Winstead in particular was an absolute Riot as Huntress.  There was maybe too much expository narration, like *way* too much expository narration, but other than that, yeah, a fun albeit very violent little action comedy, up there with Shazaam in terms of being DC superhero movies that are actually pretty darn good throughout.

As for Cass, though...  I mean, I knew going in that the films version was going to be Cass in name only, and that’s fine.  The nature of these superhero IPs is that there are going to be bunches of different takes on them and there’s no guarantee that any given take is going to bare any resemblance to any of the others.  It’s still a bit disappointing how far film Cass is from her roots, in a movie that otherwise mostly does a pretty good job of maintaining the essence of the source characters even as they adapt them to fit the plot and tone of the film.  If the source material had been at all better or more consistent in the portrayal of Cass’s disabilities I might be more upset at their complete erasure in this version, and if anyone reading this *is* upset with that I’m absolutely not saying your wrong, but as it is this is hardly the first time that aspect of the character has been erased.

Taken on her own, film Cass was a fun character well acted, and even if I preferred they had kept a bit more of the original character in there I’m not personally mad about it.  But it does have me feeling nostalgic about original Cass, and curous about my memories of her, since I know I’m quite vulnerable to nostalgia blindness.  Was old Cass as good as I remember?  Does it hold up?

So, yeah.  For the next however long I have the motivation to keep it up, I’m going to be going back to, as nearly as I’m able, read all of Cassandra Cain’s comic appearances, in order, and write a few small thoughts on them as I go.

After scouring the internet, here’s the best list I’ve been able to put together:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19VfxEJOyVUIe6VCi6cfP63iWbmHDAnvauu7O6yr_GdU/edit?usp=sharing

It only goes out to around 2010, so certainly no current continuity stuff.  200 odd entries already.  Though I doubt I’ll even make it through these, if anyone reading this happens to have a more complete list, or notices any gaps though, please let me know.  Right now I’m just looking for old, pre-reboot Cass.  Not current comics Cass.  I may or may not get to her eventually, but not right now.

[anti-tony-god]

I agree with you on the Cass stuff from BOP, because what we saw was an asian woman taking away a racist trope about an asian character. People want to believe that Cass' disability (which was almost completely erased or forgotten for almost all of her run) exist on a null void devoid of the harmful tropes of of asian people as silent assasins which, care to mention, comes with a bit of white savior because for the little issues we had of her needing help or learning from a white character.

what bothers me is how people wouldnt just admit that it was racist like you can like her as a character and you can dislike bop but like just admit that shes racist in the comcis and stop getting mad at me a korean girl for saying that maybe you should remember that the writer and director are Asian because i saw people saying that bop!cass was racist when literally two Asian women were behind her and the changes like going so far as comparing it to captain marvel which was done by a bunch of white people 

[bluebeetle]

15 for the superhero ask just DO IT

ok rant about a fave where do I BEGIN. actually i have a bunch of onions sorry.

ok 1) wanda maximoff deserves so much better than all the BS she’s been put through with all the trauma and acting like mental illness makes you a villain and then trying to erase her jewishness like UGH. also white washing her in the movies AND barely having her interact with her kids (especially poor tommy)

2) wally west. HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT WALLY HAS BEEN THROUGH?????? ok first, barry allen comes back in the 00s even when no one wanted that white bread boring ass who died in the 80s. he shoulda stayed dead. and basically barry replaces wally as the flash and wally gets screwed over for awhile (and is even mean to hartley during countdown which is sooo OOC). then wally dies in flashpoint bc barry allen wanted his mommy. 

then the reset happens and… wally doesn’t show up for THREE. YEARS. Three Full Years. and when he comes back he’s black, which is chill except they then pull a vaguely racist white saviour story with barry and wally as the angry black kid, and completely erase wally’s personality while also giving him a bad costume. and then kinda ignore him for awhile

after that rebirth happens and they decided yknow what, wally HAS suffered too much. lets bring him back! and make him kid flash–oh wait sorry, thats two different wallys. yeah bc apparently appeasing racists is more important than giving the current wally west an actual good personality (Tho they do sort eventually do that, and a better costume) so they bring pre52 White Wally back and its annoying and dumb that thers two flash characters named Wally West with the exact same powers BUT THEN

they decide that fucking over wally fans isnt done yet because White Wally becomes a murderer for no reason except ableism against the mentally ill and having lost his family, tries to cover it up, and then gets like fucking??? doctor manhanttens powers??? for no reason like STOPPPPP also he hasnt talked to hartley, his bff, in like a decade now. thanks. anyways kienyan is Best Wally

3) ok dami’s been having a character assassination as well between that weird illegal prison he had (which??? is so ooc???? for him now??? maybe 2009 dami woulda done it but not 2019 dami???????) and then being blamed for alfreds death just. UGH. 

4) when will the real dick grayson return from the war. also can writers stop implying his adoptive family isnt his real family lol

5) writers stop making bruce wayne an abusive dad challenge. hes a flawed father but he CARES. He LOVES JASON!! HE LOVES ALL HIS KIDS!! stop

6) speaking of bat fam, talia’s whole character assassination by taking her from a troubled femme fatale who was not overly cruel and did care about people and really truly loved bruce to a r*pist who is fine with killing her own ELEVEN YEAR OLD CHILD ???? yeah. fuck off. also racism 

7) hey speaking of movies with wanda, i dont hate movie loki but i am so so sos so fucking mad that we will probably never get the genderfluid bisexual loki from the comics. UGH. 

8) the fact that babs can walk again is BS and she shoulda been in bop esp since they erased cass’s disability. also cass has rly been screwed lately AND steph god

9) DUKE IS A ROBIN YALL GET IT TOGETHER 

i could go on but there you go

[jazon-todd]

literally what happens in bop is that the focus on harley is too much, we barely have any background on the rest of the group. They couldn't do even that, which is the basic presentation of the characters. oh and black canary barely uses her powers lmao. And the two hienas that are in all the promos we see them for 30 seconds in the whole movie lol why would they even add them, to sell merch?

harley isn’t on the team to begin with!!! in any comic run that has ever been published, she has NEVER been a member of the birds of prey! she has NEVER helped them! the only interaction she had with them was working AGAINST them! like literally who thought this was a good idea to have harley lead the BIRDS OF PREY? to be the marketed leader of barbara’s team? bye

ain’t it funny that the women of color in the movie either get 0 development or they’re a complete misrepresentation of their comic book counterpart, and the disabled leader of the team is erased completely from the story? maggot robby has always been a white feminist and this just further proves my point

[detectivenightwing]

I really can't get over the state of DC right now like it's just so messy.

-Swamp Thing was cancelled after one episode.

-WB/AT&T are re-evaluating the DC universe app given that WB is starting it's own streaming service app.

-Vertigo might be being shut down after 20 years (this is one year after they fired Sherry Bond and had the imprint run directly from DC)

-Then in the comics you have heroes being turned evil in the Year of the Villian,heroes turning evil working for Leviathan, heroes being corrupted amd turned evil by the Batman who Laughs (one of the most boring characters ever created) in Batman/Superman.

-Like there are no new comics coming out that inspire any confidence that DC is gonna change the pace from gridmark/overly dark bs.

-And add to that they're making a BoP movie that erases the disabled leader and founder of the team which still disgusts me. (Like whatever else about the movie they chose to erase the disabled leader and founder which is just unbelievably ugly and typical to the way Hollywood treats disabled characters)

Like after all this DC/WB still won't change anything and just continue this spiral.

[jazon-todd]

The second trailer of bop is very boring, doesn’t look promising tbh. The first one looked kind of cool with the music and stuff, but idgi why they made this movie. The rest of characters are not even introduce in the trailer and focus mostly on Harley’s boring plot. Sirens of gotham would’ve been much interesting.

RIGHT like if they wanted to make a harley movie, I still wouldn’t watch it, but make it makes SENSE. gotham city sirens could have worked, especially with it being confirmed catwoman is in the batman movie. her being on the b*rds of pr*y makes no sense. she was never on that team in any sense in the comics. not to mention she’s erasing the disabled leader of the group completely from the story?? I hate it