#also what's very clear is that the russos and whedon were having a fight between avengers catws aou and cacw that the russos won

[bedlamsbard]

What did the Russos say about CACW?

From the foreword to The Art of Captain America: Civil War

We've got to be honest: Captain America was never our favorite super hero growing up. While there was certainly something to admire in a fictional character invented to fight Hitler before his country joined the real war, the story of Steve Rogers didn't completely win us over. His strength and toughness were inspiring, but there was something about his unshakable moral certainty, his overwhelming mix of patriotism and propaganda, that left us wanting a little more complexity and a little more edge. For kids like us growing up in the '70s and '80s, the character had fallen out of sync with the times. He was a black-and-white character in a gray world. To counter that feeling, we would try to imagine him as Steve McQueen in an effort to lend him a coolness that excited us. We were kids looking for a way to love the character.

Of all the good fortune we've had in our careers, nothing tops being invited by Marvel Studios to direct Captain America: The Winter Soldier. The movie drew its inspiration from a comic run written by Ed Brubaker, and while that run missed our childhoods, it reinterpreted the character in exactly the way we had been wanting. Now we were being given the opportunity to do in a movie what we had dreamt of as fanboys: texturing and even subverting the patriot through a story that led him to question his country and break orders.

For us, Captain America: Civil War is the completion of that subversion. The film moves Steve Rogers past the flaws in his country to finally confront the flaws in himself. This is what makes him a true hero in the classical sense. Despite all the greatness he is capable of, he is flawed, and he is human. And this is a Captain America that we can love.

We couldn't have made this film without the talents and vision of our many collaborators, and we are deeply grateful to them. This book represents some of their work. We hope you enjoy it as we have.

Anthony Russo Joe Russo (signatures)

[bloodstained-ballgowns]

Things I Loved About Black Widow (2021).

*Spoilers*

Yes it’s been almost two weeks since release. Yes I’ve seen it almost three times now. Yes, all my thoughts are still a jumble. Somewhat ordering them for this post will be difficult.

Honestly, the entire first 53 minutes of this movie is perfect to me. Everything about it. The dialogue, the action, the way it’s able to convey so much without words, how it’s just Natasha, Yelena and Mason, everything is just *chef’s kiss*. (This isn’t to say the remaining 1hr 21mins is bad, it’s just not as perfect as the first act imo)

I have a thing for scores and god bless Lorne Balfe he really understood the assignment on this one. If you haven’t already, take a few minutes to listen to his composition, specifically ‘Natasha’s Lullaby’. I love when you can hear a story in music and I think this score does that really effectively.

Nat speaking Russian! Nat speaking Russian! The way she reverts back to it in the opening scene when she’s scared! I wish we’d gotten more of it honestly, especially in the family dinner scene, even something as simple as ‘pass the salt’.

Also, her Russian accent in the Budapest flashback! It was quiet but definitely there, and it showed that her American one was something she had to train herself back into once she defected, which I appreciated.

“I stashed that like five years ago” Is this a canon hint that Nat hoards her food? Maybe?! I’ll take what I can get to satisfy my headcanons thanks.

Natasha and Yelena’s fight sequence in the apartment is the best fight scene in the movie. No arguments.

So much of my inner monolgue while watching was just ‘imsogayimsogayimsogay”. That much leather and that many piercings??! The BRAIDS?? This movie is for the wlws.

Mason you absolute icon I love how much you care about Natasha I love that you’re sleeping everywhere because same. (You deserved better than to be a Taskmaster misdirect). Please turn up in more MCU properties as Yelena’s contact or something.

“But you’re not a mouse, Melina. You were just born in a cage, but that’s not your fault.” THIS LINE!!!

AND THIS ONE. “You took my childhood, you took my choices and tried to break me. But you’re never gonna do that to anybody ever again.” The emphasis on choice vs children, how it’s always been about bodily autonomy instead of the romanticised horror of sterilisation that Whedon went with. 

“I never let myself be alone long enough to think about it.” I GASPED.

HONOURABLE MENTION: “You didn’t work in the shadows, you hid in the dark,” (or something). There’s something really satisfying about that line. 

Everything about this film is so inherently female, I love it when things don’t reek of testosterone.

I’ve heard some critics say this movie felt really ‘isolated’ and ‘disconnected’ from the rest of the MCU because of the time jump and how many new characters there were and I have to hard disagree there. The appearance of Secretary Ross, name-dropping Tony Stark, and the continued references to the Avengers were not only realistic but also really cemented this oneshot in-universe for me. 

*cue me flapping my hands and opening another draft because every separate point is eliciting another two paragraphs of analysis that I absolutely cannot include on this post or it will never end*. Man I love this movie. See the read-more because this is getting longgg.

Similarly, how it actually carries through on a lot of previous set up, mostly from Avengers 1, like with ‘Dreykov’s daughter’ and “thank you for your co-operation”. I got very nervous when they announced they were going to tackle Budapest because a) I didn’t think anything they came up with would ever live up to the hype people gave that line so it would only end in disappointment and b) I’ve never particularly cared, to be honest. (it was a throwaway line in Avengers 1 that was repeated for nostalgia in Endgame in a context that now makes no sense, forgive me for being indifferent) but I actually loved how it tied everything together.

The way it reclaims her from every male creator that’s handled her (fuck the Russos and M&M) while simultaneously keeping the best of what they managed to foster (again, Avengers 1 is a heavy influence, and rightly so, but it gives a fat middle finger to AOU, also rightly so).

How competent Nat was shown to be without being unbeatable. She fully got her ass handed to her a couple of times, and yes, it’s very unrealistic that she was able to go through two car accidents, fall off that bridge, out of that window and then out of the sky without being seriously injured, but we finally got to see the physical manifestations of some of that pain! She was holding her ribs when she got out of the water, the bruises on her back, the dislocated shoulder, and the blood splatters were actual splatters when she broke her nose rather than delicate dabs.

This might be an unpopular one, because I know this was what a lot of people were expecting more of, but I was glad Natasha’s youth in the Red Room was confined to the opening credits. The aftermath of that training and Natasha as a product of it has always been more fascinating to me than the actual event.

As an older sister myself, the dynamic between Natasha and Yelena really struck home for me. Yelena’s pride in Nat and need for approval and validation from Natasha in conflict with realising Nat’s flaws, wrestling with her disappointment, seeing how human Nat is, were perfectly portrayed by Florence Pugh. I could completely relate to Nat, who, despite trying to convince herself otherwise, couldn’t fight her fierce protective instinct and specific brand of unconditional love that only an older sister will ever feel. 

A diverse set of Widows!

I was pleasantly surprised at the amount of comics references in this movie. The frame where she jumped through the fire from the Waid/Samnee run, the pheromonal lock.

Now I have my problems with Scarlett Johansson, but I came out of this movie with a lot of respect and a little bit of pride in her. It’s clear that she put her everything into this movie, both as an actor and executive producer. She obviously cares immensely about Nat and how she’s portrayed, and it’s clear from interviews that the things she loves and finds fascinating about Nat are the same as the fans. (I also feel a little bit sorry for the way she’s getting brushed over in the coverage in favour of a new and shiny Florence Pugh, so this is me expressing some ScarJo-as-Natasha appreciation).

A big question I had going in was, ‘Natasha’s always reflecting the people around her, but what’s she like when she’s alone, and has only her own mind for company?’ and this movie really answered that for me. Seeing her out of her suit and wearing clothes that were for her, not for a cover or a mission, seeing her drink beer and eat ice cream and let her hair dry while watching a Bond film she’s obviously seen many times before, it was all perfect. The scenes in the caravan were a huge step for humanising women in action movies. 

I’ll probably be adding to this post a lot because this movie will not leave my mind and new things are occurring to me at the most random points. 

See my ‘Things I...didn’t like as much about Black Widow’ post here.

[filmadaydiary]

1/18/21 to 1/21/21

Marvel Part 2

I was nervous about watching this set of films, because I know they are the least critically-acclaimed. I figured they would be a slog to get through, mostly filler between the big Avengers events. But I was surprised to find that these films were actually quite character-driven and plot-heavy, albeit relying on the previous events to make everything that much more satisfying. There’s definitely something to be said for knowing what’s going on when you watch a film, as opposed to passively being engaged in the spectacle (which I am often guilty of). I wouldn’t be so quick to write these movies off in the future. 

1/18/21

Thor: The Dark World – Alan Taylor, 2013

Bookending The Avengers with the first two Thor films made for an interesting viewing experience. As mentioned earlier, watching things in chronological order made the overarching plot much easier to follow. I liked seeing what happened with Loki immediately after the events of New York, and that was a nice reminder that not much time has passed between the first Thor and this one. People hate on this movie a lot, and even Ragnarok makes fun of it, but it’s really not that bad. Yes, it’s incredibly dramatic, but it’s also pretty darn exciting! There’s magic, there’s aliens, Chris Hemsworth does that cute Thor smile that melts hearts everywhere. It’s a grand old time. Phase 2 of Marvel is typically regarded as the worst of the bunch, but in my opinion these movies are still pretty darn enjoyable. 

Iron Man 3 – Shane Black, 2013

Speaking of movies that I thought I hated, there’s this. I only saw it one time and then let the popular opinions sway me into dissing this movie again and again. Turns out this is an introspective look at how being in a war zone will negatively affect even the most confident of civilians. Tony suffers from extreme anxiety after New York and has to confront who he is without his armor (literally and metaphorically). It’s so rare that we get to see superheroes get this stripped down, and it’s a nice reminder that Iron Man is really just a guy under all that bravado. My boyfriend thinks that the hatred of this film comes from the portrayal of the Mandarin and how that differs from the comic books, but I think the way they did it here is a really interesting take on a cookie-cutter villain. Don’t write this off so quickly. 

1/19/21

Captain America: The Winter Soldier – Joe and Anthony Russo, 2013

Aka the film where everyone fell in love with Sebastian Stan. No? Just me? What can I say, there’s something about guyliner that really gets me going. Seeing Cap get gritty and real after the optimism in his first outing makes it clear why the Russos were handed the keys to the MCU kingdom. This is a very well-constructed movie, deftly introducing new characters and story elements that feed into the greater plot without compromising what we already know and love. It sets the foundation for Steve and Natasha’s friendship going forward and helps fill in the blanks for what’s happening on Earth while there are galactic happenings in the other films. Plus the fight scenes in this film are truly epic. Steve’s takedown of the Hydra agents in the elevator is for sure one of the highlights. The ending does drag a little, but the rest of the film sets the tone for many of the other MCU entries going forward. 

1/20/21

Guardians of the Galaxy – James Gunn, 2014

And now, onto something completely different! This movie, much like Captain Marvel, does feel slightly out of place when watched in sequence with the others. But since it takes place in 2014, we have to watch it here. I can understand why this is the favorite of many Marvel fans. In many ways, it feels much more like a comic book than the others. It’s colorful, it’s chaotic, and being set against the backdrop of ‘80s pop music gives it a certain sense of nostalgia. You can’t help but dance along with Quill in the opening number, and it does wonders to endear him to the audience. The ragtag gang is always a fun dynamic to play with, even more so when they’re criminals. Oh, and Lee Pace is there, which means I will automatically like the movie more. The characters are edgy and unique, each with distinct personalities and quirks. Those do soften out a bit over the course of the movies, which is a shame as they all get lumped into one ensemble and become flatter for it. But there is no doubt that this is a very fun time. 

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 – James Gunn, 2017

This movie was slightly disappointing, thought it was much more enjoyable right on the heels of the first one (as opposed to three years later in theaters). I don’t love the Guardians sense of humor, it tends to be a little bit too goofy and rely on cringing or making fun of others as opposed to real jokes. So for me, I didn’t have the best time here. The only thing of value to the overarching storyline is the evolution of Nebula as a character, and builds connection between the characters. Although much of that connection is built off-camera, between the two movies. There aren’t even any Infinity Stones in this movie. It feels too unnecessary to have a whole movie just about getting the characters where they need to be when we won’t see them again until Infinity War. Space escapades are fun and all, and Baby Groot is always a bonus. Okay, and the soundtrack is also excellent, and there were a few moments that genuinely did make me laugh. My problem is it makes the jump back to Earth very jarring, and I wish there was a way to smooth that out somehow. 

1/21/21

Avengers: Age of Ultron – Joss Whedon, 2015

Ah, Age of Ultron. Another movie that seems to be widely disliked by the fans. I saw this at a midnight premiere as well, and I had a great time. I had a great time watching it now as well. Ultron’s creation is truly haunting, and his cold, calculating logic in destroying the human race feels almost reasonable. If you’ve been paying attention, then Ultron no longer seems like an overreaction from Iron Man, but instead an extension of his anxiety and his drive to protect everyone now that he knows what’s out there. The movies in between the first Avengers and this one actually did a good job of setting up where everyone is emotionally and why it’s important for them all to be back for this major event. Plus, here we get some nice character-building for Hawkeye, my main man. This pushes the Avengers in a new way, with world-ending stakes, and I think it’s great. Not only are they fighting an endless army of robots, but this time they’re also racing against the clock because they’re on a city in the sky. It’s so cool! Not to mention loads of other things get set up in this film, from Vision to Thor’s epiphany about the Infinity Stones. It sets the stage for a whole new era of Avengers, one that I’m very excited to move on to. 

[ramajmedia]

Hulk’s Three-Movie Arc Didn’t Fix The Character’s MCU Problems

The Marvel Cinematic Universe has largely failed the Hulk - and even his recent three-film arc didn't fix the long-standing character problems. Both Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige and actor Mark Ruffalo have suggested they see Thor: Ragnarok, Avengers: Infinity War, and Avengers: Endgame as a loose "Hulk trilogy." Feige has always allowed actors themselves to have input into their characters' stories, and he and Ruffalo figured out a journey that they believed would work for the Hulk.

At heart, the Hulk is a Jekyll and Hyde-type character, and the MCU brought these two personas into a head-on collision. In Thor: Ragnarok, Thor was shocked to learn that the Hulk had been living on the planet Sakaar for two years, with the Banner identity completely submerged. When Bruce Banner was finally restored, he was shaken to learn just how long he'd been out, and feared he'd never return if he transformed again. Fortunately, Bruce was proven wrong; the arc took a twist in Avengers: Infinity War when the Hulk turned back into Banner and then refused to come out and play again. The story was resolved in Avengers: Endgame, which revealed that Bruce had managed to work out a solution, blending the two personalities into "Professor Hulk."

Related: What is the Hulk's Future After Avengers: Endgame?

On paper, this has the makings of a fascinating story; indeed, it's drawn from some of the best comics by Peter David. There's just one problem: it didn't come together to fix the issues that have plagued the Hulk since the early days of the MCU.

The Hulk is one of Marvel's most iconic superheroes, a brand almost as strong as the Jade Giant himself. For all that's the case, his big-screen presence in the MCU is pretty muted - and that's mostly due to legal issues. Marvel regained the production rights to the Hulk back in 2005, but the distribution rights still sit with Universal, who have the right of first refusal to distribute any future Hulk films. That wasn't a problem for 2008's The Incredible Hulk, because back then Marvel didn't have a distribution network of their own (all other Phase 1 films were distributed by Paramount). But in 2009, Marvel was purchased by Disney, who has one of the best film distribution networks in the world.

All that means Disney can only make more Hulk films if they offer them up to be distributed by a rival studio. Universal, for their part, seem to have no desire to give up the distribution rights. That led actor Mark Ruffalo to publicly complain about Universal. "I just want to make one thing perfectly clear today that a standalone Hulk movie will never happen," he fumed. "Because Universal has the rights to the standalone Hulk movie and for some reason they don't know how to play well with Marvel." Barring a massive change in corporate strategy at either Disney or Universal, The Incredible Hulk is the only solo Hulk film that will ever be made in the MCU.

This is why the character has exclusively been in team-ups and ensemble films since; Universal's option on the character only goes as far as solo movies. He can be a part of the Avengers or turn up to fight Thor without issue.

Related: Why Marvel Can't Make a Standalone MCU Hulk Movie

Edward Norton had originally played Bruce Banner in The Incredible Hulk, and was expected to reprise the role in The Avengers. Instead, Marvel chose to replace him with Mark Ruffalo. They released a terse statement that they were looking for "an actor who embodies the creativity and collaborative spirit of our other talented cast members," a somewhat snide remark that they never explained. It seems pretty clear the two parties had some serious behind-the-scenes conflicts, possibly connected to Norton's extensive rewrites of The Incredible Hulk's script. Whatever the case, it meant that Marvel essentially reinvented the Hulk again in 2012's The Avengers.

It was a good call, and Mark Ruffalo is generally considered to be a far better Bruce Banner than Norton. What's more, Joss Whedon's Avengers script gave the Hulk quite an entertaining character arc, with Banner learning that the Hulk could be a force for good and actually choosing to unleash him during the Battle of New York. After that, though, Whedon struggled with Hulk in the sequel, 2015's Avengers: Age of Ultron, choosing a rather left-field romance plot between Bruce Banner and Black Widow, which proved somewhat divisive given it has no comic book precedent and seemed to come from nowhere.

Underpinning the pivots was the unavoidable truth that both Bruce Banner and the Hulk were relatively undefined as characters in the MCU. All the other Avengers had important arcs that Whedon could either draw upon or (quite frequently) ignore; the Hulk was a blank slate. And Whedon only had so much time he could dedicate to the Green Goliath, meaning the Hulk never got the chance he deserved to shine.

That explains the context of the three-movie arc devised by Mark Ruffalo and Kevin Feige. They were aware the Hulk was being under-utilized, but also by now had come to accept the fact they'd never be able to make another solo Hulk film. The resulting three-movie character arc is, therefore, really something of a second-best; and, frankly, it's not a very good one. The basic concept is lifted from Peter David's classic "Professor Hulk" story, which treated the Hulk as a sort of multiple personality disorder, and forced the minds of Bruce Banner and the Hulk to confront one another.

Related: The Problem With Hulk In Avengers: Endgame

Unfortunately, Marvel Studios couldn't match David's story. There's a sense in which that was inevitable; David is a particularly skilled writer, and his Incredible Hulk run naturally focused on the titular character. In contrast, the Hulk was a secondary character in Thor: Ragnarok and part of a massive ensemble in both Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame.

While Thor: Ragnarok writer-director Taika Waititi set up the arc fairly well, the third and fourth Avengers films dropped the ball. It was unclear what was going on with the Hulk in Avengers: Infinity War; the Russo brothers spent months fielding questions about why the Hulk was scared of Thanos, which wasn't the story they'd been attempting to tell at all. Editing decisions meant Infinity War's Professor Hulk transformation was cut, and instead the biggest character moment in the Hulk's entire MCU history happened off-screen, with Bruce Banner apparently merging with the Hulk after spending eighteen months in a Gamma lab.

Instead, Hulk's defining part across all the movies was his snap to bring back Thanos' victims, something that doesn't at all rely on any of the journey to get there. The Peter David story was boiled down to its simplest elements, a story that was then told in a remarkably disjointed way.

At this stage, it's hard not to conclude that the MCU has mostly wasted the Hulk's potential; and this is one problem that can't be cracked by eighteen months in a Gamma lab. Mark Ruffalo is believed to have just one more film left on his contract, and - because the conflict between Marvel and Universal is still unresolved - that means he'll be appearing in a final team-up movie. The Hulk's as-it-stands last outing will be as a secondary character, unable to fully get to the heart of his character once more.

Related: Hulk Was Injured In Ragnarok: Is That Why He Couldn't Beat Thanos?

After all, what Hulk story can Marvel tell? In the comics, Professor Hulk worked because it was a deviation from the status quo, a break from the norm that thrilled readers. Neither the Hulk nor Bruce Banner really has much of a status quo in the MCU to deviate from, which is one reason the Professor Hulk twist fell flat. Avengers: Endgame essentially left the Hulk unrecognizable, a brawny being whose mind seems more like Bruce Banner's than a blend of the two, weaker than before and with a permanently crippled arm. The MCU's Hulk could perhaps serve as a mentor to the next generation of Avengers before bowing out, but that's about it. And the Hulk deserved far more.

More: MCU Characters Missing From Marvel Phase 4

source https://screenrant.com/hulk-mcu-problems-ragnarok-infinity-war-endgame/

[sophygurl]

WisCon 42 panel MCU’s Black Superheroes

The full title of this panel was Show Me My Respect: A Critical Look At The MCU’s Black Superheroes

The panel description:

Has the MCU done its black characters justice over the last 10 years? Did Disney allow Ryan Coogler to give Black Panther the respect and nuance it deserves? Did the Russo Brothers f*ck up everything in Avengers: Infinity War that the black and NBPOC writers and directors established in building complex characters and storylines? Let's explore this decade-long journey into Phase IV to see how the MCU has and will continue to treat us.

The moderator was Jennifer Cross, with panelists Aunterria Bollinger and K. Tempest Bradford.

Reminder that these panel notes are only my own recollections and the things I managed to write down - my notes are incomplete and likely faulty in places. Corrections and additions are always welcome. Especially please do correct me if I get names or pronouns wrong!

Also I name panelists as that’s publicly available information but not audience members unless requested by that person to have their named added.

[I came into the panel a little bit late, so missed intros and probably some other stuff.]

Tempest was talking about the black best friend trope and that DCTV does this a lot. Rhodey is very underused, and Civil War turned him into the disabled black best friend. 

Jennifer said Don Cheadle deserves better! Iron Man 2 gave complexity to Rhodey and Tony’s relationship and Civil War messed a lot of that up. It also made Rhodey disabled in a super questionable way [I missed some of this statement]. It was a literal cheap shot and felt like Joss Whedon saw him as an expendable character to use to elevate white man pain. Also the fact that Rhodey just automatically sides with Tony - what happened to the tension between them and Rhodey holding Tony accountable for his actions?

Jennifer made an aside to let the audience know that the panelists were going to be using a lot of code switching and AAVE references. She then went on to say “Fuck Infinity War - Russo brothers, take your white man pain to Ralph Lauren and buy some more polo shirts.” (lol)

Jennifer brought up that two black American men go to Wakanda for the first time and said nothing about it. Also they made Wakanda look “dank as shit.” 

Tempest said the amount of Cumberbatch she had to stare at in Infinity War was too much - she skipped a whole movie to avoid him! (me too) One problem with IW was that there were just too many people in it, so they couldn’t properly focus on anyone. 

Tempest added - why didn’t they just ask Shuri to fix things from the start? She was finally going to fix it, but she got interrupted by more man pain! Jennifer added that she loved the “you tried” moment with Shuri. 

Aunterria talked about IW’s short shifting of Wakanda as if they were saying “well we gave you a whole movie - what else do you want?” But also how much worse it might have been if that had been the first introduction to Wakanda instead of coming out after Black Panther. 

Jennifer brought up Winter Soldier and how Sam got to have a whole back story about his PTSD. In IW, we see him helping other people with their trauma but they never address how events are affecting him. She talked about how PTSD varies from person to person, and about how it can affect black people differently, especially.

Tempest brought up the gaybaiting of the series. Jennifer adds that she hates shipping, but she loves Sam and Bucky. 

Tempest said that Sam has more back story than Rhodey in terms of story that isn’t tied to a main white character. She will also never forgive Tony for shooting him in the face in Civil War. Marvel tries with regards to race, but their attempts are inadequate. 

She went on to talk about the character of M’Baku in Black Panther. She has a friend who was initially very upset about the inclusion of this character because in the comics the portrayal is very racist. Then he saw the movie and saw how great the character was. This is what happens when you give black people agency. Ryan Coogler had a lot of freedom in how he made BP.

Tempest added that white directors may try, but when trying to fix race in one area, they often make it racist in a whole other way. She brought up the Mandarin, for example. Why don’t you just ask an Asian person?

Jennifer said she wanted the panel to primarily focus on black people. The MCU fucks up all people of color, but the panel is specifically about black characters. 

She added that she loved watching Rhodey kick Tony’s ass. When he said “you don’t deserve to wear this suit” - it was a calling out of his privilege. She also found it suspect that Rhodey didn’t notice Tony’s PTSD in Iron Man 3. He’s a veteran and a general and would be trained to look for those signs. She said “we’re 10% of the population in LA - find one of us and pay us to fix this stuff.” Especially important to find a black veteran officer to inform Rhodey and Sam’s characters. She no longer trusts white people to write black people. 

Jennifer moved on to Valkyrie. She said she does love Thor because Chris Hemsworth. Also Taiki Watiti did surprisingly well. She loves Tessa Thompson. 

Aunterria talked about her love for Danai Gurira as both Michonne in The Walking Dead and Okoye in the MCU. However, she still falls under the trope of the exceptional black woman giving it all up for a man. 

Tempest countered that saying that Okoye fights for Wakanda over a man. She and T’Challa fight alongside one another and it’s clear that she would do the same for Shuri if she was queen. BP is not just about awesome black men, but black women too. There isn’t enough complexity in the other black characters in the MCU with the exceptions of Heimdall and Valkyrie. Asgard also had random Asian and black characters walking around that are never addressed or explained.

Jennifer loved Valkyrie drunkenly stepping off the ramp. Also the quietness of Heimdall’s character even when had more to do than just standing there. She talked about being a big Norse Scandanavian folklore nerd and said Asgard looks the way it’s supposed to look - it was actually diverse as shit. It took a man of color to finally make it look almost accurate representation-wise. She references the show The Almighty Johnsons as a show about Norse gods living in New Zealand. 

Jennifer wonders if it’s going to take only poc behind the scenes to give us proper treatment. Way down in her soul is an optimist that “no amount of beating with Lucille can shut up” that wants to know if it can happen any other way. 

Aunterria said she’s not optimistic about this. She can’t think of a poc character written by a white person that’s done anything meaningful or purposeful or accurate. 

There is much collective groaning about Iron Fist.

Aunterria talked about making Luke Cage bulletproof but not talking about police violence. Giving black characters powers without engaging in the social issues around them. 

Jennifer said she is mixed about Luke Cage. It’s the embodiment of respectability politics. But there is an effort to show Harlem and the gentrification of it. There’s this idea that poc don’t have any room to make mistakes. BP did so well that Kevin Feige is begging Coogler to come back. 

Jennifer said that she loves the women in LC - especially Misty. There are lots of women who are all different people, all unapologetically black but in different ways. She’s watching it for the women. Praises Alfre Woodard. 

Tempest uses headcanons to make movies better.

Jennifer addressed how Tessa Thompson was the one out of the women in the MCU cast to ask Kevin Feige about them wanting their own movie. Why did the black woman have to be the one to ask for what all these white women have been wanting? Why couldn’t ScarJo take her white appropriating ass up there and ask about it?

Tempest talked about the TV part of the MCU technically being in the same universe. TV shows have to include the big events of the movies but not the other way around. She said she stopped watching Shield when Daisy’s transformation killed the black male character (Trip) for one episode of white pain. Jennifer also stopped watching it in season one.

Aunterria is still watching Shield. She wondered if Trip had been killed because of the possibility of his entering into an interracial relationship. She said there is a new black male character (Mack), but his arc is all about suffering. Last season had a storyline about aliens enslaving white people, which was interesting. But the people of color come to save the white people. Jennifer interjects “Killmonger wasn’t wrong...”

Tempest adds “Joss is the most fuckassed fuckass to ever fuckass.” Jennifer asks what about Stephen Moffat? Tempest said - he’s second.

Aunterria said Shield did make the black man the team leader at the end of this season. Jennifer said - so he has to suffer for his reward now and his reward is to parent a group of white people? That’s even more fucked up!

Tempest said that BP gave her hope. Jennifer said - see, she’s not the only one with optimism. Tempest said that Coogler has some power right now - maybe he can bring in some friends and fix some more stuff.

Aunterria said that being a black writer right now is also hard because there is so much to fix. There is so much shit to work on before you can even focus on your craft - so it’s more work for them.

Tempest said her hopes are with the movies over the TV shows.

Jennifer said - “especially fuck babyvampJessica” (Karen from Daredevil). It’s like the paler you are, the more people will die for you. 

Tempest said - as far as cleaning up, BP didn’t have to do that work because they were starting from scratch. There must be other characters that can be brought into the MCU movies that can be written by black writers.

Aunterria said those do exist, but the funding isn’t there. Tempest - but Gods of Egypt somehow got funding!

An audience member asked about Heimdall and if he would come back. Jennifer said that Idris Elba has said no on that. 

Tempest talked about actors being semi-responsible to the narrative of their characters. RDJ even saying - maybe it’s time for me to go? Jennifer added - and then they throw more millions at him and I can’t be mad about that. Tempest said that we know all those people who were turned to dust are coming back. It was a bold decision to kill some of them - but we need to sunset one story in order to have a sunrise on another. Also - “fuck Thanos.” 

Tempest said that something that ruins a narrative almost as much as white supremacy is the irresponsible choices of actors going on and on - except for all of the cast of BP - they can stay as long as they want.

Jennifer said that with Disney owning Marvel, Deadpool is now officially a Disney Princess (lol).

Tempest said she sat through all of Wolverine Origins just to see Hugh Jackman naked and she is done with Deadpool now.

An audience member asked about the character Cottonmouth on LC. Jennifer talked about him as a complex character bridging socio-economic status’s. She added that if you put trauma in a black character’s history, you need to do it in a way that is not just for show. She said the opposite of the example would be Zoe Walsh.

A member of the audience asked about Lash’s purpose on Shield. Aunterria said he filled in May’s backstory and explains things to us about her that we weren’t getting just from her side. But he was mostly there for gratuitous pain and suffering of a black man and Asian woman. 

Jennifer said the MCU is allergic to black love. “Tweet that.” She wants to see a black male character saving a black female character - not just everyone else.

An audience member asked about Miles Morales. Jennifer said - we’ve had four Peter Parkers in fifteen years! Tempest said Tom Holland is at least finally a good one. Kevin Feige has said there is space for Miles, but she wonders who is going to write him? 

Jennifer closed the panel with a firm statement for the white members of the audience, especially. She said - you will take everything good from our culture and appropriate it, but not our pain. You’ve taken our stuff for fun value and for show, but you don’t address our pain. 

This panel was also livetweeted pretty extensively with #blackmcu if you want more/other perspectives from it. 

[For context, I’m white.]

[loyolafilmcircle]

“There was an idea...”

by Renzo Guevara

edited by Anna Cayco

Avengers: Infinity War (2018) is the 19th film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU), a franchise that has been relatively consistent in terms of quality and vision for the last 10 years. It’s the massive culminating event that has constantly been set up with the three phases of movies with each of the individual heroes’ adventures leading up to this film.

But Marvel’s massive reputation and cultural impact was not as prominent as it is today. They sold some of their most recognizable characters’ movie rights to other companies such as the X-men and the Fantastic Four to 20th Century Fox and Spiderman to Sony. Their first movie, Iron Man (2008) was a risk to say the least. The concept of an Avengers movie was merely just a thought but never an actual legitimate vision. A fun little innocent scene was placed at the end of the credits, showcasing Samuel L. Jackson’s now iconic character Nick Fury showing up to talk to Robert Downey Jr.’s Tony Stark about the Avengers initiative. Conversations about this scene grew until Marvel Studios revealed its plan to produce more superhero movies to lead up to an Avengers film. Thus, the MCU was born.

The first real culminating event was 2012’s Avengers directed by Joss Whedon. To say that the film was a success is an understatement compared to how exactly fans and critics responded to it. It featured breathtaking action sequences, entertaining interactions between the characters and a carefully crafted three-act structure that successfully combined all the elements that were set-up during the standalone movies. Included in Phase 2 was its sequel, Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015), which featured new characters such as Scarlett Witch, Quicksilver and Vision. Unlike its predecessor, it was met with mixed reactions between the audience and critics. Some commended it for the sheer spectacle on display and seeing our heroes assemble again but in time people soon accepted the fact that the film had a disjointed narrative, a disappointing villain and a few unlikeable characters.

Regardless, these first two Avengers films successfully assembled the heroes and characters we’ve all come to love. It’s not wrong to say that some of us may have garnered some sort of attachment to them that naturally makes us care for what happens throughout the series, especially in Infinity War where stakes are at an all-time high with talks of possible permanent deaths and ending of contracts of certain actors.

What could possibly have created this attachment to this universe is how these movies always tried to set themselves apart not just in their tonality also in the production behind it. The directors the studio hired were not your typical action filmmakers but were more story, character and comedy focused. And it’s also not uncommon to see the MCU go with the recent trend of giving blockbuster projects to directors who mostly made a name for themselves in the indie scene or in television. Filmmakers Anthony and Joe Russo, who were mostly known for the TV series Community (2009-2015), were hired for Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014) and then for Civil War (2016). Both films were met with commercial and critical praise. With engaging plots that were grounded in reality setting it apart from the rest of the MCU, it was a clear choice for Feige to call upon the Russo brothers again to work their magic. And boy did they deliver with Infinity War.

The 3rd Avengers film features an incredible roster of every hero that has been established alongside the Guardians of the Galaxy. This feat has been so monumental in scale and scope that it has often been regarded as the most ambitious crossover event in cinematic history and if I’m being completely honest, it definitely earns that title.

Immediately, the film starts off incredibly strong with the chilling rightful introduction of the main event, Thanos. Gone are the days of post credit setups or small cameos, here we are placed face to face with him alongside his team who are not to be messed with. Thanos as a villain is truly an achievement for the film. You would think that him being a purely CGI creation would make him feel weightless and absent but that’s far from the case. Josh Brolin gives a hauntingly calculated performance that was beautifully motion captured as real emotions were seen, and true terror was felt whenever he was on screen. The MCU has always faced criticism about its villains but recently they have been nailing it in that department especially with Thanos. When people say that Infinity War is a Thanos movie instead of an Avengers one, it’s a valid statement to say. This is ultimately Thanos’ story and the Avengers are simply background characters. Some could even look at them as the real antagonists of the story as Thanos’ actions may be grim but once you deconstruct his motivations, they actually present a proper argument to a certain extent.

A massive cast is something that’s unavoidable with this being a culmination of 10 years’ worth of movies. At times, the film, struggles with the weight it has to carry as it tries to give each character their own individual adventures that all come down to stopping Thanos. Despite this, it doesn’t feel overly bloated. Each of the heroes get a decent amount of screen time. Some may shine more than others, but this can easily be forgiven given that this is technically a two-part storyline and the film was already nearly three hours long.

Considering the run time, the film is still a rollercoaster ride that rarely lets you take a breather. Just from the very first shot all the way to the last you will be left speechless and in pure state of either awe or shock. If in previous MCU movies, the stakes were rarely felt and a sense of danger was minimal, Infinity War turns this over your head and whacks you with it continuously. I wouldn’t say that there were certain throwaway scenes that could’ve been left on the cutting room floor but there were definitely some moments where I was more invested in than others. This can mainly be due to personal attachments to certain characters or just a simple desire to get back to the action. Character moments between our heroes are highly entertaining with the filmmakers and writers taking advantage of each of their quirks and antics that play off of each other. But what’s more impressive is that in its core, the identity of its characters remains intact. When the Guardians are on screen, it feels like a Guardians movie and so on.

But it’s also worth noting that some characters may not act the way we were accustomed to them in their solo movies. This should be expected given the difference of directors and writers and visions towards what and who they are. None were too different to the point where it’s a complete 180 of a character trait but just subtle enough to be noticed a bit or can be argued as part of their arc.

The action sequences in Infinity War are spectacle in its purest form. The Russo brother’s first two films in the MCU, The Winter Soldier and Civil War both contained amazing action scenes but most of them would regularly use quick jump cuts and an overly reliance on shaky and handheld camera work. Infinity War is arguably their first “fantastical” movie as their previous projects in the Captain America franchise were mostly grounded in reality. Thankfully they improved their craft in this one utilizing mostly wide shots and steady cams. The fight choreography and the breathtaking visual effects that supplement them invoke an epic feeling that is so much more emphasized with the familiar iconic score of the Avengers theme. One moment in particular near the climax had all these elements come together to create one bombastic moment that had the entire theater screaming in delight.

On the topic of the Avengers theme, Alan Silvestri’s score for this film also deserves much praise for what it accomplished. Although it should be expected given that the Avengers score is one of the most recognizable themes today, Silvestri’s new pieces in this film are as memorable and impactful as the scene themselves. The action sequences are injected with auditory adrenaline rush coupled with the masterful sound design and mixing but even the slower, more emotionally driven moments in the film contain some of the best scores to come out of the MCU.

All in all, it really was incredible to witness the development of the MCU franchise from its humble beginnings with Iron Man all the way down to Infinity War. All the stories the directors have told and all the elements they had to set up all coming into fruition in this one epic cinematic event. The Russo brothers deserve all the praise they could get for accomplishing this monumental task. Many have tried and failed to launch a cinematic universe such as the DCEU or Universal Studio’s Dark Universe, but it’s with the MCU that truly believes in its own vision and in the stories they tell.

All the beats in Infinity War hit when they need to. Wonder and spectacle alongside tension and emotion jell together for one massive sweep that generally satisfies majority of the hype that developed over the years. A global cinematic event that deserves to be seen and a proper payoff to all those years of excellence. Infinity War is definitely up there with the best of the MCU and it cements itself as one we would be talking about years down the line. The future of the franchise looks bright and with the continuation of the storyline scheduled to release next year, it’s only a matter of time till we see our favorite heroes assemble once again.

Photo sources: 1 2 3 4 5 6

[frankcastled]

So, as someone who has a lot of time on their hands, I’ve gone ahead and done very precise trailer breakdowns of two trailers from each of the past four MCU films (Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2, Spider-Man: Homecoming, Thor: Ragnarok, & Black Panther) because I started making a post earlier about how, when you look at a lot of these trailers, most of what they show you takes place in the first half of the movie and given that logic, a lot of the stuff we’ve seen in these Infinity War trailers are probably mostly from the first half of the movie with none, if any, hints to what lies in the finale. 

So, I had this long feature about breaking down the trailers here, but I realized, I’m here to break down the Infinity War trailers, not pick apart trailers for movies that we’ve seen, but I did learn that most of the scenes featured in trailers are, in fact, part of the first third or half of the movie, which I think is important to look at. And while you can look at my trailer breakdowns and see how there’s some that seem to heavily feature scenes from their respective final battles, most of the scenes featured are such quick cuts with little to no context that connects them, it’s almost impossible to really tell and they end up taking up less time of the final trailer because, again, they’re such quick cuts and shots. But for each of the trailer breakdowns, if you’re curious, you can find them here:

Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2

Spider-Man: Homecoming

Thor: Ragnarok

Black Panther

And here we go! Finally, at long last, the Infinity War trailers!!!!

So first off, for reference, here is my breakdown for both the official, two minute trailer, and the thirty second Superbowl spot. You can read through it all there, most of it is just a literal breakdown of the scenes all the way from observations of who’s in it to what they’re doing, and the background and any other tiny, discernible details with my thoughts interspersed. What I’ll do here is mostly reorganize my bullet points into a more cohesive state as well as adding any other observations, such as the fact that there’s a lot of weird little orange glows featured throughout (but then again, they could just be from fires and explosions happening offscreen and could have nothing to do with the soul stone). 

So, from what I can figure out there are maybe three to four major scenes being showcased here between these two trailers (with other, random unrelated scenes used to showcase characters as opposed to revealing any kind of plot point). 

1. New York City. We have Peter Parker on the bus look at the circular, hovering contraption and we later see him on it. At the same time, we have Tony, Bruce, Doctor Stranger and Wong, also in New York City, assuming that the scenes we see are taking place in and/or around the Sanctum in NYC that we see Strange take residence up at the end of his solo film. Also, I assume that the scenes of Peter Parker and then the scenes at Tony, Doctor Strange and co are happening simultaneously, or rather they are reacting to the same event. All stuff that could have been put together, on top of which, in the Superbowl cut, we get the scene of Peter, Tony and Strange together in a place that is clearly not the city, but somewhere else, possibly in space, which then leads to--

2. The scenes of Thanos, Peter and Tony in space. These scenes probably lead into one another with other filler stuff happening in between, of course. There was also the footage from the SDCC that while we don’t have that to really break down and analyze fully, did have a scene of Strange on a planet of some sort, which again, would mean Strange was also involved in that scene. 

3. Wakanda. This one was the always the most obvious one. The only other little thing that I did notice, is that you also have Hulk featured in these Wakanda scenes and even the Hulkbuster, which a lot of people have already deduced, is probably being used by Banner and not Stark. At which point, he probably turns into Hulk as we later see featured in that nice little slow-mo team-up. You also have War Machine here, which means that either Tony sends Rhodey out at the request of back-up by Steve or maybe Steve gets to him directly. Obviously there are a lot of little holes that need to be filled that we’re not too clear on yet. On top of which Vision and Wanda are missing in these scenes, yet we do gets shots of them with Steve and Natasha in the Superbowl trailer, with Vision missing his mind stone, so it’s possibly they join them later, after that Wakandan battle withe the Outriders?

4. And then there’s the Guardians and Thor, who have not been featured quite as heavily but we do see them here and there. My guess is obviously, that they’re in space and split up. You have one shot of Star-Lord, Gamora, Mantis and Drax (notably missing Teen Groot and Rocket) and then another separate shot of Teen Groot and Rocket with Thor. Eventually the adults somehow find or team up with Tony, Strange, and Spider-Man, as again in the SDCC footage, we have Strange creating platforms with his magic which allegedly Star-Lord uses to jump up on while in his gear and using his guns, possibly in a preliminary battle against Thanos. The same battle we see featured when he slams Peter Parker into the ground and punches Tony Stark. I also think the adult Guardians, head off to find the collector (possibly knowing about some vague plan for Thanos to collect the Infinity Stones) because Thor told them about the Aether being left with him, so they head to investigate while Thor and Groot and Rocket do something else (build a new weapon, according to the internet, but there’s not enough evidence from the trailers for me to commit to this). And then the adult Guardians possibly find or run into Tony and co, possibly because they run into Thanos first when they’re by the collector’s (I only mention this at all, because I did download that leaked and unfinished footage of the Guardians watching as Thanos (pre-CGI Josh Brolin in the clip) is confronting the collector). And although the trailers did not feature him with the aether in Thanos’ possession at all, that could be because he lost it during the explosion the power stone caused in Guardians 1. After all, as of the end of Guardians, his place was still a wrecked and who knows if no one came along and stole things from him. I’ve never been convinced he really even still has the aether, personally. It was too big of a mess for me to ever feel like nothing happened there. On top of which, since we know he has the power stone, he clearly stopped by Xandar (perhaps the reason they know about Thanos’ plan to collect the stones, Nova Corp might have informed them of the theft) and then gets the space stone from Loki simply handing it off (nope, no matter what you might think, Loki is complicit and does it because he’s Loki and not out of any reason to help or save Thor, I believe the Russo brothers have confirmed he willingly sides with Thanos, after all, we pretty much see him working for Thanos in The Avengers, so, and I know a lot of people will fight me because they hate Joss Whedon, but regardless of what you think, the one thing these movies have going for them is continuity). And as far as I can tell, Strange has the time stone (or the eye of agamotto, at least) around his neck still at all points in the trailer. And of course, we see the mind stone pilfered, which then leaves the aether and soul stone as not being featured with their whereabouts unknown. 

EDIT: Okay, I just rewatched that leaked scene of Thanos confronting the collector, and yep, Thanos is definitely there to get the Reality stone. He directly mentions it and the collector says he doesn’t have it, playing it off and saying he sold it. However, Thanos counters that this is a lie and tries to get it out of the collector whereas the collector then claims he didn’t know what it was worth. Thanos says the collector is stupider than he, Thanos, thought. And as the Guardians creep in, if they’re at the collectors lair or house or whatever, it looks destroyed, to which I’m assuming Thanos fucked shit up before directly trying to confront him, or tried to confront him first, then got physical and fucked shit up. So either, the collector does have it and is not giving it up, or he did lose it or give it to someone else, but is protecting them as he does not give up a name or identity when he claims he sold it and even claims he doesn’t know where the stone is. ANYWAY, just needed to add this tidbit in there because it gives A LOT of insight, especially if you never saw this scene when it made the rounds. 

Anyway, I think most of this was already pretty much sorted by people who decided to do this kind of thing as soon as the trailers were released and not wait months afterwards, but my interest was less about doing that picking apart and more about trying to line up scenes into a more cohesive story as well as figure out what might be from the end of the film as opposed to what ends up being in the first half of the film. From what I can see most of this probably comes from the beginning to the middle of the movie, with even the Wakandan battle scene possibly being a showdown from the middle, because I like to think that since it was so heavily featured, it’s not really what’s to come in the end, but an intermediate battle that leads to a much larger one, possibly in Wakanda again, or elsewhere. But at the same time, with another and as of yet untitled fourth movie, it’s hard to say exactly what this movie will cover and if any of the storylines will be tied up or if they’ll continue it in Avengers 4 to make one long movie. 

Anyway, the hour is 2 hours and 26 minutes long, and I nearly had an aneurysm while driving home. I. Am. So. Fucking. Hyped. 

[positively--speculative]

I say hopefully because we really have no way to know what was going on and it's marvel. It's not the first time there are rumors about conflicts in production, fights in an environment that should be professional but for some reason isn't and talk of wounded egos. See Age of Ultron, fights between Downey Jr and Joss Whedon or the conflicts the Russos had with A LOT of the main actors in the last two avengers movies. So yes, hopefully there weren't any issues. As fans we have no way to know and to pretend otherwise is either naive or delusional.

Hiddleston, as you have pointed out, is a very successful and in-demand actor. He is also highly privileged as a white man. If he had any problems with Waititi, he could share them and face little to no backlash. Again, there is no evidence that Waititi was difficult to work with for Hiddleston, Hemsworth, or any of the other actors involved, unlike Whedon, who multiple people of less privileged groups have come out and spoken out against (especially Ray Fisher, who is a Black man at the start of his career). So until Tom comes right out and says it or someone notable from behind the scenes comes right out and says it, there's no reason to believe that Waititi was difficult or had it out for Tom or Loki.

Joss Whedon didn't change Loki's characterization or his motivations. He moved his character to a different place in which originally he was always meant to be. The main task of Thor 1 was creating a villain origin story for Loki. That's why he was given so much attention as a character by Kenneth Branagh. The events of Thor 1 are the reason why Loki transforms into Avengers Loki and it was a character development that made perfect sense.

Really? Because as others have pointed out, Loki went from wanting to be Thor's equal to being a fascist spouting nonsense about how humans were "made to be ruled." This by itself is an insult to his character seeing as how he was a victim of Asgardian colonization. Along with this, how does it make sense all of a sudden for Loki to be a gross misogynist exactly? There was absolutely no indication that he had those tendencies before? Was there any sexism suggested in his interactions with Sif? With Frigga? Where exactly did we see this transformation take place?

Again, it's not about the slapstick comedy. It's not even about Loki being relegated to comedic relief. It's about his actions and motivations having nothing to do with the character we knew and loved in previous films. Because he doesn't have motivations. None of his actions in Ragnarok make sense, he's just running around, constantly changing goals and just doing what the narrative needs him to do in order to keep appearing on screen. And people try to justify it by saying "he's the God of Mischief" but you know Loki's multifacetic nature is not an excuse for nonsensical writing.

There seems to be a number of people on Tumblr who have never experienced the novelty wearing away from something they wanted.

Loki is shown to have GOTTEN WHAT HE WANTED in Ragnarok. He's got Asgard. He's got the throne. He had thought he wanted to rule for a long time and now he HAD THAT. And that's why his first appearance in Ragnarok is both humorous and also kind of sad, because he doesn't know what else there is left to do than relive the glory of his somewhat redemption in TDW. He didn't plan on what he would do once he was successful.

Running around and constantly changing goals? He doesn't have any now, because he, again, had what he wanted only to be confronted by Thor before meeting with the man who raised him one last time who revealed at the last minute before dying that they had a homicidal sister, who as it turns out is powerful enough to break Thor's hammer. His behavior makes sense. He's in SURVIVAL mode. He can't go back to Asgard because his sister has taken that over, and to be honest, he was likely tired of ruling that place anyway.

Also, it's clear Loki doesn't exactly know where he belongs with Thor and company. He didn't even think he would see them again. It's a group he's not even sure he'll be accepted into. Him "constantly changing his goals" is him doing what he has always done--making one mess after another for himself...only this time, he chooses to do the right thing in the end.

You did bring up those other films, btw. You are talking about Joss Whedon and how his "retconing" (which was no such thing) influenced even TDW. That gives room to talk about previous Thor films and later films in which Thor was featured which were influenced by Ragnarok. The movie is also part of a cinematic universe. It doesn't exist in a vacuum and it doesn't make sense to talk about it as if it did.

I think you need to go back to my original post:

Does anyone think that Oh-no-ki stans are ever going to acknowledge the change in tone started with Joss Whedon? Or are they forever going to get mad at Taika Waititi for continuing with the trend Joss Whedon started?

You were the one who went on to state that you didn't just have problems with Ragnarok and went on to list Endgame, Infinity War, and the Loki series. To be fair, I made the comparison to how fandom treats Whedon to how they treat Loki, but I brought up TDW to show that Whedon started the trend of making Loki slapstick and Loki's fandom acts like Waititi was the only one to do this...when Whedon's influence is seen in even one of the darkest installments which is TDW.

So, yeah...you started to talk about your gripes with those other installments that I had never mentioned and never indicated liking. (And as I was going back and forth to copy and paste your words, I can see that you brought up TDW in your second response to me.)

I don't really see how it's fair to talk about Loki stealing Thor's methaphorical thunder in previous films. You do realize that the Dark World was a two hour long film in which Loki made a 17 minutes long apparition? Thor had so many badass moments before Ragnarok. He had a good, sensical character arc. He was the only one of the Avengers who was truly a good person with selfless intentions. His character had beautiful wardrobes, an amazing aesthetic, and at least until Phase 2 he was the strongest Avenger around. Even if people say he was boring, I liked him well enough and I am not at all fond of what they turned him into.

You were the one who pointed out that critics and audiences preferred Loki over Thor in TDW and now you're saying it's not fair? Sorry, but I'm confused. This was your observation and one that I didn't necessarily disagree with. Audiences did prefer Loki over Thor probably for a number reasons. Yes, Thor got to have some badass moments. Yes, Thor is, for the most part, a good person. But Loki is a morally grey character, and morally grey characters tend to have more freedom to teeter on the line of what is good and what is bad. Thor has already chosen his side, but Loki is conflicted. He wants to uphold that persona he had on Earth, but it's weakened by Frigga who can see through it--and he ultimately becomes responsible for her death. Like, screentime doesn't mean much if a morally grey character can make an impression. And we were never quite sure what he was going to do whereas we always knew Thor was going to do good. Thor did a lot of growing in the first movie, Loki still has a ways to go.

In Ragnarok, we see Thor weakened and vulnerable because the one thing he felt gave him his power (the hammer) is gone--destroyed by a sister he didn't even know he had who wants to kill him...this all comes RIGHT AFTER HIS FATHER DIES! What did Waititi do? He HUMANIZED a powerful character. He gave him more to do. He gave him a new journey. And he gave Loki and Thor a reconciliation.

The reality of the matter is this. When signing up to write for a franchise like marvel with the intention to bring to the table such a polemic reinterpretation of the world and characters Waititi should have expected backlash. And if he couldn't deal with it, he should have just rejected the job.

I see a lot of this mindset, yet I see so few Loki fans condemning the antisemitism and racism towards him that is rampant in the fandom. Criticism is fine. Not everyone has to like Ragnarok. But there is a specific Loki fan I'm talking about here, and if that's not you, great. It wasn't about you.

Meanwhile, very few Loki fans extend their "criticism" towards Whedon who has actually proven himself to be a shit person. It's just a little odd to me that a fandom so self-righteous has barely said anything about it simply because they like his version of Loki (who seems to reflect some traits Whedon has himself).

Does anyone think that Oh-no-ki stans are ever going to acknowledge the change in tone started with Joss Whedon? Or are they forever going to get mad at Taika Waititi for continuing with the trend Joss Whedon started?