#also these are like barely scratching the surface of my thoughts on aegon

[navree]

have you shared your thoughts on aegon yet? have i missed that? cause inquiring minds (me) would like to know.....

Gonna be true to the show and wonder Which Aegon, as we know there are fifty of them and if you don't specify there are problems that can arise and wars that can start ;) But lemme satisfy the inquiring minds of you and others anon, cuz I've got stuff to say about Aegon.

I've talked a bit about Aegon in other posts, like his relationship with his mother and his relationship with his father (both of which are part of longer posts but aegon is discussed in detail there), and I think I've mentioned before that there are choices they've made with Aegon that I really do not like to the point where I outright reject it as canon (most noticeably the rape thing in episode 8, please what was the point of that).

My view of Aegon is that this is a deeply wounded person, and nearly everything he does is a product of that pain. I've gone into it at length in those other two posts I've linked, so I'll just briefly touch on it here, but Aegon was always doomed to have a complicated relationship with his mother due to the fact that she had him at fifteen/sixteen years old, and he's of course been shaped by a relationship with his father that is either total neglect or cruelty (when Viserys screams in his face and Aegon flinches..........I was ready to commit homicide in that moment, on God). And while I think at some point, likely after Driftmark, Aegon gave up on having any kind of relationship with his father, he still desperately wants a closeness to his mother and loves her so much, and just wants that love returned.

(It's why the coronation makes me so insane, Aegon getting this concrete proof that his mother loves him so very much, Aegon at one point putting his arm in front of her as if to pull her back and Alicent shoving it away because she's going to protect him, she'll die with him if she has to........I love it I can't wait to see more of their dynamic as the Dance progresses).

There's also a lot of characterization they've hinted at with Aegon that I love, either through writing that is open to interpretation or choices made by Tom (sweetie when I get the money I'll make another Augustus show and cast you again and you won't have a bad wig and you'll have a better character to work with, I'll right the wrongs of the stupid Domina series). There's a recurring theme that nearly everything Aegon does is motivated by a deep hatred of things within himself, like cutting off his hair before it grows long so he doesn't have classic Targaryen looks, and choosing even in adulthood to wear green in solidarity with his mother, rather than Targaryen house colors. There's also the idea that Aegon "ignores" Helaena unless he's drunk, and the choices that he's mostly sloshed when looking for sex, comes with the implication that Aegon, already spiraling toward alcoholism due to feelings of being unworthy, less than, so defective that even his son-desperate dad sees him as being undeserving of his love, needs to get absolutely hammered, blackout drunk, before he can even stand sexual intimacy with another person. Especially his sister, considering that he didn't want to marry her because he and his siblings grew up viewing each other as siblings, not in the traditional Targaryen way (viewing siblings as potential marriage prospects).

Aegon's relationship with his siblings is also something I want explored as well, because from what I've seen and interpreted it's one of the best dynamics. Again, there's all the convoluted mess that comes from his relationship with Helaena crossing the lines from being a sister to him to being his wife (and again the fact that he cannot bear any sort of husbandly intimacy with her without hardcore coping mechanisms) that has clearly damaged any rapport they have, but they are also bonded through blood nonetheless, as well as the children they share (and I do hope they keep Aegon's fondness for kids, especially given What's About To Happen To His). And then there's his relationship with Aemond.

"He bullied Aemond" yeah, and that sucked, but unlike with the Strong kids, that was not the be all and end all with their relationship, not to mention that Aegon in his youth is a clearly more lighthearted person who likely didn't stop to think about whether he was doing any damage because he's thirteen and I've never met a thirteen year old that's self aware. There's clearly fondness there even though there's the bullying, like Aemond trying to keep Aegon back during Harwin and Criston's fight, and that they can have one on one discussions about things that bother them, like Aegon and Helaena's betrothal (which continues into adulthood with Aemond bitching about the dinner and Aegon trying to give him advice on how to deal with it, even if the advice was just 'get drunk' and therefore not good advice). And, very importantly, Aegon still feels a sort of brotherly protectiveness for Aemond. Aemond is clearly lying when he blames Aegon for the Strong rumors, Aegon knows that for a fact, but does he tell his dad that Aemond's lying? It really wouldn't be hard for Aegon to channel Dakota Johnson and say "no that's not true Aemond" and pull the focus (and screaming) back to Aemond. But he doesn't do that. Aemond puts the spotlight on him in this incredibly tense moment and Aegon rolls with it in a way that protects both his mother and his little brother, which is incredibly important as he's just been castigated by Alicent for not protecting Aemond.

There are also hints (at least to me) that Aegon could feel guilty about not being there before and is trying to make up for it in his adulthood. We know that Aegon and Aemond appear to constantly have each other's backs, as one of the first moments of Aemond being Intimidating is when it looks like Jace is gonna start shit with Aegon, and Aegon of course is immediately on board with the Strong boys toast even though he knows it's gonna cause drama. But most tellingly, he goes from zero to one hundred and then back to zero during the fight. He's fine until Luke stands up, at which point he grabs someone nearly ten years his junior and slams him facefirst to the table and is gripping him insanely tight and hissing Something at him (we don't know what, which is a shame). But the second he's forced off of Luke, he's back to normal. It's Luke trying to get involved that makes him blindingly furious to the point of enacting physical harm, Luke who, as we know, took Aemond's eye and started a long and arduous recovery process for Aemond that Aegon would have been a firsthand witness to once they were back home. And so Aegon, who couldn't protect his brother before, is definitely going to protect his brother now, against anything, and as viciously as possible.

Like, listen, my little sister and I don't always get along, but if someone injured her in a way that left her permanently disabled and then came back with nary an apology and tried to start shit? They'd die. They'd full on die.

And on Aemond's side it's fascinating that even with the disdain he might have for Aegon, he's always ready to back him up, in both the little things like family squabbles and the big things like dynastic squabbles. Plus Tom and Ewan have the potential to make this dynamic the best thing imaginable once season two starts and Things Happen that might be seen as Aemond's fault given his actions at Storm's End (which only Aegon is kind to him about in the book, like, hell yeah gimme it).

I think Aegon's very fascinating, bad writing choices excluded, as someone constantly in pain due to the choices of others even before he was born, who is trying desperately to be what he thinks others want him to and always feels like he's failing, who clearly gives shit 110% when he cares about it, and has such complicated and messy feelings about the family he loves so very deeply. And TGC is killing it in the role and should be allowed into the writers' room to remind them of how to write Aegon so that we don't get anymore weird shit.

(Also, they need to go the full mile for Aegon and Sunfyre. Their bond is so important, they both only start to heal from really bad injuries once they're together again and not before, I don't care if they don't have the budget for any other dragons, they need to go full on with Sunfyre.)

[gondorosi]

The gradual separation of show!Jon from book!Jon - Part II

Magic

The showrunners deciding that magic is an unimportant part of the saga and to be relegated to the background is utter horseshit. There’s a bloody REASON direwolves and dragons reappeared in the world when they did, more or less at the same time. There’s a fucking reason why in Martin’s version Dany’s fireproof nature was a one-time thing, the dormant magic in her reawakening as needed BECAUSE dragons needed to be brought back into the world. Dany, Jon and Bran are the three most magic-sensitive characters in the whole story - and only one of them have anything to do with it in a significant manner (though significant might be stretching it). With Dany, her magical nature is only sporadically referred to (the dragons are the be all and end all) and Jon has nothing.

Show!Jon is a mortal man on every level, without a drop of magic in him. Book!Jon is no Bran, but there are three fundamental factors which show how deeply he is connected to the land.

Ghost: Removing Ghost's importance to Jon is akin to removing part of his soul. He isn't just 'big, white fluffy doggo'. Ghost is part of him, his familiar. Ghost is the physical personification of the magic running in Jon's blood, the proof of the Old Gods awareness running through Stark children's veins. Direwolves have a deeper, subtler and less apparent magic than dragons, but no less potent, and no less essential to Jon than her dragons are to Dany. Out of all the Stark siblings, Jon’s connection with Ghost and Bran’s connection with Summer seem to be the most symbiotic. All the siblings have strong bonds with their direwolves, molded to their own personality - Arya’s connection with Nymeria persists even across the sea in Essos, all legends of Robb in battle are accompanied by legends of Grey Wind and poor Rickon becomes so enmeshed in Shaggydog’s mind that there’s little to distinguish between boy and beast. However, perhaps due to the nature of their POVs and story arcs, none of the Starks save Bran and Jon have their journeys so closely aligned to their wolves. Which is why it’s nigh impossible to even consider Jon’s story moving forward without Ghost, especially post resurrection. The show omitted the obvious implication that Jon warged into Ghost before he died, had no role for him in the BoB, completely erased him in S7 and relegated him to a damn stray in S8. On the other hand, the show AMPED up the Dragon Queen part of Dany to the detriment of all other aspects of her character.

Warging: In a universe where Martin has tried his best to weave in strong magic with actual medieval politics, concentrating all Northern magic into one single character (whose surface they barely scratched) is utterly lazy storytelling. Jon's warging abilities are mighty and second perhaps only to Bran, though I hold the belief Arya is as powerful a warg. But unlike both of them, Jon seems to actively resist exploring his warging possibilities. Some of the resistance may be explained by his environment - with both the NW and the Freefolk considering warging to be something of a ‘black’ art or dark magic. Sure, the Free Folk are more open about it, with Varamyr envying Jon’s gift with Ghost in his thoughts:

“He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.”

The show makes NO mention of it. Jon being considered a warg is a major reason behind half the NW hating and fearing him. I don’t remember the show ever bringing up the fact that Jon was feared - they seemed to make Thorne and Slynt’s animosity out of sheer spite and disgust at his bastardy. 

The Lord Commander's Raven: This is a favourite obsession of mine. Old Mormont’s raven pops out at Jon at seemingly random moments, but for the reader bursting with conspiracy theories, the raven is just another nod to the fact that Jon has a far greater role to play in the story than is visible to the eye. There's a popular theory that Bloodraven wargs him from time to time, since Jon is the secondary piece on his chessboard. The raven has come to Jon’s aid atleast twice that I can remember:

When Mormont is attacked by the wight:

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he'd ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands.

During the election for Lord Commander when Mormont’s raven flying to his shoulder is used as a sign by Sam to argue for Mormont’s approval of Jon as the choice.

Bastardy

Jon's entire sense of self is centered around two things:

Ned Stark is his father

He's a bastard

His entire character arc is trying live up to one of those and distance himself from the connotations of the other. His bastardy is the formative lodestone of his character and moral compass but in the EXACT opposite of how Catelyn and Westerosi society as a whole expect it to be.

However, there's a twist to that. Jon's inner desire is EXACTLY what Catelyn feared. He DOES want to be Lord of Winterfell. He DOES harbour resentment that Robb (seemingly) has everything handed to him while the best Jon can hope for is to die at his post, unknown and unsung. He DOES want glory and power and to exact some kind of revenge on a society which deemed him vile and detestable for no fault of his. All the elements for him to become the Starks' own Daemon Blackfyre is already present.

But there's one difference - Ned Stark is no Aegon the Unworthy. Even more than all of the above heart's desires, Jon wants to be like his father. He wants to do what is right. He wants his father to be proud of him. He wants to be nothing like the greedy, vengeful and lusty creature he's always been told he is. He wants to help people and stand up for the weak because that's who he is. At the very heart of it, he just wants to be loved by Ned as much as his trueborn sons. And thus he takes Tyrion's words to heart and wears his bastardy like impenetrable armour.

In show!Jon, ALL of this inner struggle is lost. Jon's bastardy is rarely affixed other than as a side. Show!Jon is a 'good' man. Yes, undoubtedly. But what makes book!Jon a great man is that he masters his baser desires to focus on what's more important. THAT'S what Jeor, Mance and Stannis all saw in him. That's why the Free Folk follow him. That's why half the NW will die for him (yes I know the other half will kill him).

When you have spent most of the show without anywhere referencing how vital the armour of bastardy, and being Ned Stark’s son is to Jon's psyche and sense of self, even the best directors will not be able to depict WHY the news of his parentage will have ripped out the ground from under him. Dany's quest for the throne is out there glaring at us thus atleast on paper making sense that having her undeniable right threatened will rattle her (I personally hate hate HATE the creative decision that Dany's immediate reaction to find out Jon's a Targaryen will be paranoia and concern for HER throne but I digress).

Intelligence, ability and cunning

Up until S4 and most of S5, show!Jon and book!Jon exhibited similar levels of intelligence and cunning. One of my favourite scenes is Sam trying to stop Jon from marching into Mance's camp to try and assassinate him. Jon gets in his face with his frustration and despair boiling and asks if he has any better ideas. At this point he's done a superb job commanding the defence of Castle Black but has also just lost Ygritte, Pyp and Grenn all in one night, a significant portion of the meagre Castle Black forces and is fully aware that they cannot survive another charge. He's beyond desperate and aware that his efforts are likely suicidal but he can't just retreat, lick his wounds and do nothing. 

The show labours under the popular delusion that truly good guys can't be really smart, as being smart means preserving yourself and truly good guys will always jump into danger first to protect other people. Politics is bad so if you're a good strategist then you can't be a good person. 

Both book and show characterizations of Jon have been criticized for being examples of the ‘Chosen One��� the ‘reluctant hero’ who turns out to be the right man for the job, and for painting ambition and the quest for power as negative pursuits. In the book however, Jon’s ambitions never really had a chance to form. He’s prideful enough in his abilities to believe he would be an immediate select into the elite Ranger ranks and is devastated when that doesn’t work out. By the time he’s come to terms with the fact that being Mormont’s steward means being groomed for command, the truth of the White Walkers is in front of him and that becomes his sole consideration.

To many readers, Jon’s election to Lord Commander was ‘contrived’ though I do believe Sam played the long political game as he believed his friend being in a position of power would lead to an easier path for him. However, Jon doesn’t crumple under the weight of the responsibility - his actions as Lord Commander are revolutionary enough to completely destabilize his support. The show entirely omits all the strategic parts of his negotiations with both Stannis and the Freefolk. Unlike show!Jon, book!Jon does not allow the Freefolk through the Wall only on the account of goodwill and the fear of a common enemy. He takes their children hostage to ensure compliance. He negotiates with the Iron Bank for a loan to stave off starvation come winter. He repopulates the Gift with Free Folk. He shelters, counsels and aids Stannis. He addresses almost every logistical and material issue he can think except for the most fundamental - his people. 

On the other hand, there’s no strategic and political angle to Show!Jon in S6 and S7, instead being posited only as warrior extraordinaire.

'The greatest swordsman in the North' - but too naive to not keep the sister who tricked him almost to his death at arm's length. Brave, loyal and courageous beyond belief - but completely befuddled by politicking. Immediately trusting a sister he’s never been close to and who has been Littlefinger’s pupil for a considerable time. 

Book!Jon's abilities as a leader are sorely underappreciated, especially considering that his tenure as Lord Commander saw the status quo of almost every aspect of NW life upended. The previous LC is killed in a mutiny. The Wildling army launch an attack. The Others finally rise. A King/King Claimant FINALLY takes the NW's warnings seriously. The Wildlings are brought south of the Wall.

Despite being a new beginning for all recruits, the Night's Watch is the one order in Westeros whose traditions and rules have not changed in millennia. Understaffed, under-resourced and facing a threat the likes of which people would struggle to comprehend, Jon does the best he can. His major mistake is one most young leaders make, and that is assume all of those under automatically understand his reasons for doing what he does. 

Relationships

Brother:

If there's one role Jon takes more seriously than 'Ned Stark's son, it's that of brother. Book!Jon is pretty much the pinnacle of brotherly love - Robb's right hand, Arya's champion and dutiful protector to both Bran and Rickon. There's a subtle tragedy in this too - despite how much his siblings love him, all of them, including Arya, have othered him. He's brother, but only half. Snow, not a Stark. The last in the list. 'The last brother left to me' - as felt by both Robb and Sansa.

Book!Jon and Show!Jon are both shown to be loving, dutiful brothers but once again the show is incapable of portraying more than one character at a time in a certain way. Thus all of Jon's brotherly love is concentrated on Sansa, the sibling he was least close to. Show!Jon never mentions Robb after his death mentions Arya not at all when book!Jon never stops thinking about the two of them.

Maybe, maybe if the show had bothered to flesh out Jon Snow's emotional attachment to his home and siblings, his dilemma between his family and Dany wouldn't have been so shoddy.

Friend:

Book!Jon, despite his aloof demeanour attracts fast friends. His staunchest supporters in the NW are those who he befriended when he first stepped within the gates. He's the only one to ever have stood up for many of them. And it's his NW friends who do become truly brothers, as they see and stand beside him during his rise to leadership.

Show!Jon is no different - he's got his loyal friends but there was no apparent discord after him being elected LC. Which is surprising considering that this is the moment that Jon effectively decides to ‘Kill the boy.’ The Gilly baby switch storyline is completely done away with, probably because it is the one decision that very clearly paints Jon as grey. The book Sam struggles to understand this decision - in his mind his best friend would never have done that. Maester Aemon is the one who sets him straight - Jon is no longer just a brother of the Watch, he’s the Lord Commander now. He can no longer be taking decisions just as Sam’s friend.

The show never really dwelt on the chasm Jon’s position as a leader would have created with his brothers who till them were his equals. Book!Jon knowingly starts distancing himself and this is a flaw that comes back to stab him in the chest - again a misstep in one raised to leadership at a young age.

Lover:

This part will be a bit of a cop-out since at this point the only common love interest between the books and the show is Ygritte. The show axed Val, who’s one of my favourite secondary characters and my main preference for a Jon pairing pre-Dany. And of course, there’s far too much plot to cover before Jon and Dany even meet in the book (if they’re ever finished).

There are factions of the fandom who don’t think the Jon and Dany romance in S7 was set up convincingly. Admittedly that’s going to be hard for me to judge fairly as I’ve been in the Jonerys camp ever since ADWD made it clear how Jon was growing as a leader and as a magical touchstone in direct parallels to Dany. It definitely helped that Kit’s portrayal of Jon had FINALLY started to appeal to me once The Watchers of the Wall aired. I’d been one of the many fans who had been waiting for these two to meet on the show - and though I personally found the Jon-Dany relationship progression to be one of the few good things about S7, I can perhaps get why many neutral fans (i.e not commited to any rival ships for either Jon or Dany) think its out of character for them to be so involved so soon.

There are plenty of popular assumptions perpetuated by the show which have no backup in the original material - one of them is ‘dumb, lovable idiot’ Jon paired with the ‘awkward and oblivious as fuck with women’ Jon. Now, I’ll not deny that the latter portrayal works QUITE well with show!Jon (Kit’s face is the perfect cast for this characterization) but I just don’t see it working with book!Jon. The boy isn’t seeking out women but its not like he’s not around them. Alys Karstark was quite obviously taken with him, and I doubt Jon missed it, but there were far greater things of import to consider for both of them - I saw no awkwardness in the text. Jon dislikes Selyse and manages to be both cordial and deferential as required. Melisandre makes no secret of her fascination with him - there’s no bumbling awkwardness there either. And Val - he’s quite smitten and there’s some awkwardness there, sure but its hardly the bumbling variety.

As for Dany - considering that at this point the 7 seasons of the show is all we will ever have, I somehow think the softer show!Jon makes a much better pairing with the more hardened show!Dany. Its as if certain aspects of their personalities were flipped in the show - book!Dany is definitely much softer and gentle without her power and strength being diminished, whereas book!Jon is far more calculated and ruthless without compromising on his honour and integrity.