#also the whole batgirl babs no longer full time oracle thing still gets me

[qcomicsy]

Dick Grayson has to confront the Court of Owls in Gotham, Dick Grayson has to be Batman again, Dick Grayson has to be a international secret supper agent, Dick Grayson has to supervise Batman's kid, Dick Grayson has to pretend to be dead, Dick Grayson has to be shot, Dick Grayson has to be Ric, Dick Grayson has to confront guy from circus number #81928383 Dick Grayson–

HOW ABOUT DICK GRAYSON FOR ONCE IN FOURTY YEARS PUT HIS SILLY LITTLE COSTUME, IN HIS SILLY LITTLE CITY AND JUST FUCKIN FIGHT A CRIMINAL.

WHAT ABOUT THAT HUH????

HOW ABOUT DICK GRAYSON DO THE ONLY FUCKING THING THAT DICK GRAYSON COMPROMISED HIMSELF TO DO AS A CHARACTER.

What happen to saving cats from trees??? From stopping muggers???? Drug cartels???? Mas Murders???? War criminals?????? Drug Dealers???????? helps old ladies crossing the street

W HA t happen with the good old fashionable combating crime? A bit of investigation a bit of kicking a fools ass????

for fuck sake

[duketectivecomics]

Hey I was wondering if you know the official order of bruce gaining all the kids including harper, Barbara, and stephanie? I know its Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian but where does the other 3 and duke and cass fall in? Tia!!

So I’m gonna assume that you mean the order in which they get adopted, since finding First Appearances is one of the easier things to google for any character. (Getting First Appearance issues afterall is part of the reason some comics retain their value, so it’s usually well documented when a character first shows up. Side note: DCUguide is an excellent resource if you’re looking to comb through appearances for characters, although I’d also recommend asking for reading lists from other fans, since usually those have been curated down to essential storylines only)

I tried to provide actual issue #s where I could, but a lot of the time in comics, it’s usually something that’s dropped or hinted around or casually mentioned rather than outright boldly stated.

Also some of these characters span DECADES and their histories change depending on continuity. So I tried to account for that where I could.

But also canon is fake and everyone in fandom cherry-picks anyways so yknow. Keep THAT in mind too.

Before we dive into this, I wanna have a quick convo on what Legal Guardianship vs Adoption is.

While guardianship includes some of the same responsibilities as adoption, it also comes with a few key differences, such as allowing any living parents (also possibly any living relatives) to contest the guardianship. Adoption would make the child fully and solely the potential parent’s responsibility, and would nullify any legal ‘say’ that the biological parents may have. Also of note, is that  guardianship does not allow the child in question a claim to inheritance unless the guardian specifically wills it to them, as there is again, a bit more of distance that is placed between the child and guardian, as more of a mentorship is expected to take hold. One way to look at it is that adoption is permanent (& usually a longer drawn out process bc of that), while guardianship can be more legally flexible.

With that out of the way, let’s start~

Dick: pre-flashpoint/52, it’s stated often that Dick was actually Bruce’s ward, that Bruce has legal guardianship over Dick. I know this is a nitpick and doesn’t matter bc it’s usually retconned/ignored in favor of Dick being adopted. But I think it’s a fascinating point of potential contention nonetheless. especially given the historical reason, that it was absolutely unheard of at the time for a single man to adopt a child, but no one would bat at eye if he was taking Dick in out of a sense of altruism & duty. Contract this with decades later, when he DOES appear to adopt Jason outright, which puts some friction in place between Dick & Bruce. and well, you’ve got a whole story & conflict to explore right there.

Barbara: Usually dons the Batgirl cowl after Dick becomes Robin (the only exception to that was The Batman (2004) cartoon and it was absolutely galaxy brain of them honestly) She has her own Dad though (idk if y’all know him? Jim Gordon? Yknow? The Commissioner?) so she doesn’t get adopted. She’s considered a core batfam member mostly in the sense that she’s been there so long and esp as she makes herself absolutely essential when she becomes Oracle. She has never, and will likely never be adopted by Bruce (bc again. W h e n is that gonna come up? When Jim dies? L m f a o)

Jason: pre-crisis it’s assumed from the go I guess? I could only find slight confirmation and ended up finding more info that there was a custody battle and that Bruce would won Jason back officially in Detective Comics #548. post-crisis, Jason’s history is redone, though & I remember his adoption being touched on, but could not for the life of me find a particular issue. N52/Rebirth it’s simply assumed from the go as far as I’m aware.

Tim: Batman #654. This was after his father died, though he’d been Robin at this point for at least a decade. For n52/Rebirth as far as I can tell he’s also been outright adopted by Bruce (though I think he’s parents were still alive but in Witness Protection? Idk. I haven’t read at all for Tim’s history there so take that with a heavy grain of salt)

Steph: another one who is not adopted (Crystal Brown is very much alive and taking care of Steph (barring the time Leslie Thompkins squirreled her away after faking Stephs death BUT)) She does show up pretty soon on Tim’s tail when he starts as Robin. Again, she’s considered a staple of the family because of how long she’s been involved with them. I like to think of her like Kimmy in Full House. She’s a Good Friend who’s Constantly Showing Up and is one of the family through mutual agreement on everyone’s part.

Cass: Batgirl (2008) #6, though like Tim, Cass had been Batgirl for nearly a decade at that point in continuity. She’s shown and stated many times that she considers Bruce a father/father figure and likewise that Babs, who had been mentoring her, was the closest she has to a mother. In n52/Rebirth, I have yet to see or hear about official adoption for her, but again. We usually ignore canon on that part anyways. I mean they made her into Orphan so uhhhh. Not super great yknow?

Damian: since he is biologically Bruce’s, it’s never really addressed as far as I’m aware (I have yet to read Damian’s appearances Altho he’s next on my Robin list). I personally think it’d be interesting to explore the fact that he was likely born outside of the country and what that means for Bruce gaining legal custody & whether or not Talia would contest that? I’m sure there’s probably SOME thinkpieces about it out there, but I’ll search for them on my own time eventually

And now we’re getting to *drum roll* Harper and Duke!

Harper: her appearances are mostly kept to the n52 runs, though with Tynion returning to Detective, it’s likely she’s coming back into Rebirth soon. She’s a unique case where, due to her abusive home life, she emancipated herself and took her brother, Cullen, with her. Neither she nor her brother were adopted by Bruce, and as far as I’m aware/understand, they’re fine with it that way. I know Stephanie was living with them at some point (it’s dropped in Batman & Robin: Eternal at least?), so I certainly think it would have been nice if DC also brought them into the fold like Steph. Just a couple of kids who are Really Good Friends with the family and continue to insert themselves in batfam business lmao

Duke: I actually addressed this fairly recently here! Duke’s guardianship (bc like Dick, Duke is not outright adopted by Bruce, likely to afford Duke’s parents the opportunity to regain custody should they recover from Joker’s toxin) its a little more up in the air at this point in Batman & The Outsiders. Since Bruce is very clearly taking both him and Cass away on globetrotting adventures. It would make things EASIER ofc if he is under Bruce’s guardianship. But given that it’s not really addressed, it’s led most of fandom to simply assume it instead. And really? Considering that DC themselves probably doesn’t realize that they’ve written themselves into this corner, it probably won’t be fully addressed or recognized anyways.

So to answer your first question actually: Babs, Steph, and Harper? Not adopted, likely never will be, but they ARE interspersed fairly regularly in the line-up. Everyone else? Varying degrees of being under Bruce’s guardianship if not outright adopted.

We’re all happy that they’re here, though!!! And we love and appreciate them ALL.

[bluboothalassophile]

I honestly don't understand DC always trying to undermine Raven's powers. I read the current comics that she's in and it is so poorly written and boring. They suck at character development and its so fucked up that she's always brushed aside. And also I'll never forgive them for killing Roy and they keep fucking up Jason. These guys went through a lot and I just wanna see them be happy and I want to see more batfamily moments and team ups like in Batman and Robin Eternal.

Hello,

Reasons I am mad about Canon Raven:

She’s ALWAYS depowered; always, and she is literally the very definition of an over powered character. 

When they attempt to over power her again they fuck it up; like in Titans with Raven’s ‘telepathy’; she’s a fucking empath! NEVER has she been a telepath!

She has never been utilized outside of the Titans; which is infuriating on many levels. Because she needs to go solo; with a big comic or go to JL Dark or hell, team her up with Lucifer! I don’t know, but something outside of the fucking Titans!

Her solo series, while hold much promise are always cut short, or tie into nothing about her canon life.

They just severed her connection with her aunt and cousins, further isolating her again.

I am royally pissed that her connection with Victor Stone, a.k.a. Cyborg, (which I think is canonly her BEST familiar relationship EVER, their dynamic is amazing; it’s also an amazing dynamic for Victor too! So why was it cut!?) has been severed, was briefly rekindled only to be discarded again.

She’s always de-aged; sorry @chromium7sky, but I really hate that because I really think she should be about Jason and Tim’s age, hell, I’d even settle her being Dick’s age, just enough de-aging her! At this rate; and I’m sorry @impulse-goblin, she’ll be a RobRae with Carrie Kelley or Matt McGinnis! Which is so not okay because DC is screwing her over royally.

Marv, her creator, can no longer write her well to be engaging; which is sad.

She’s been royally dumbed down; which really fucking pisses me off, because even though N52 SUCKED BALLS, Raven, while bitchy, was always eager to learn; it’s one of her defining traits! She’s super smart, she’s engaging, she’s empathetic and kind, and rebirth has made it so she struggles with school. -.- Explain that to me, please, she’s never been stupid or struggled learning before. And I get trying to connect with modern readers, and making characters relateable, but that was just plain fucking stupid. There are other characters you can do that with, using Raven does not help in anyway.

I will not get into my issues with N52, there’s many, but mainly: WTF is up with Raven’s Entire Personality!? I mean don’t get me wrong, I loved the design she had, and I loved her on Tim’s team, also their entire friendship was amazing, but WTF, what a Bitch. I wanted to smack her.

They either forget she is a magic user, or they forget she’s a demon with demon abilities or something, but it always seems like one or the other is missing with her.

Off side key irritation too: How come her father doesn’t play a larger part of the DC universe and getting heroes to fear him? I mean come on! Titans plays him up to be like Darksied or Lucifer level of terrifying, and the DC universe: Who’s Trigon? WTF is that about!? You want the Only Daughter Of Trigon to have meaning, to show her power, then why the fuck isn’t Trigon more widely known and feared!? Come On People! We have Darksied’s ENTIRE Family feared, but you want to play Trigon off as eviler than Darksied but the entire DC universe outside Titans is like: Who the Fuck is Trigon!?

Kay, Metal hinted at her connection and importance to the Multiverse, but the DC, I don’t know… Forgot? And somehow the entire reason for her being captured, isolated and singled out by the Batman Who Laughed was forgotten. Granted my favorite panel of her and Victor happened because of that, but seriously; MAJOR PLOT HOLE DC! Come on, we aren’t Marvel, cease these plot holes in your big labels! Be grown ups!

Mainstream Raven hurts my Raven loving heart. But her counterparts are pretty cool, like on Earth 1 or Bombshells or the recent Titans movies, definitely liked her in the Titans live action show, and obviously I loved her in the cartoon; not Titan’s Go as that has helped in destroy her and the Titans. 

Now, my issues with Heroes Crisis:

King. Fucking cock teasing bastard tormented us with BatCat for over a year, getting them to the fucking alter then he did that fucking stunt; hell yes I am pissed still, and I am no less angry going into Heroes Crisis.

Kay, now for real.

I have major issues with the plot, thus far, because there doesn’t seem to be one.

Killing Roy and Wally did nothing to further a plot, or even engage in the plot and has just furthered to hurting surrounding characters.

Killing Roy was fucked up and senseless; as a writer I find that appalling.

Killing Wally was unnecessary; especially after all the fucking trouble we had gone through to get that speedster back! I mean COME ON! It’s like you brought him back solely to kill him off, and if that’s the case, someone smack a brain into King’s fucking head.

While the premise of Heroes Crisis was engaging and interesting to read the idea for it, it has been a dismal affair.

Why the fuck are your only suspects Harley Quinn and Micheal Carter, a.k.a. Booster Gold? No seriously want to explain that!? 

There is NO WAY Harley would ever hurt or kill Ivy, just no, and DC I don’t care about trying to cater to people and convincing all of Harley and Ivy are straight, it just wouldn’t happen. Ivy and Harley are in love, and I sincerely doubt, that despite EVERYTHING Harley has done in her life, that she would ever kill the woman she loved.

Also, Micheal Carter has selflessly saved the timeline multiple times, and done so without recognition. Yes, he can be full of himself, but where the hell did King come to the conclusion that Carter was a sociopathic narcissist? Someone please explain the basics of human nature to King; PLEASE! For the love of God, someone! I expect this crap from Lobell!

Now to my fury with the Batfamily in it’s current state:

Rebirth presented us with fairly healthy dynamics between the Batfamily members; which was refreshing as all get out, but now… I’d like to rip DC’s heart out and shove it up their ass for what they’ve done.

First, they allowed King to be the ultimate cock tease! Bastard built up the fucking BatCat wedding to be the wedding of the goddamn century; going to make comic history! And he fucks us over like we’re a two cent whore whilst simultaneously destroying the Batfamily.

Second: who the fuck even ALLOWED Lobdell into DC again to write!? I mean really!? Did you asshole not learn your lesson the first time!?

Third, wtf is up with Ric Grayson; I get it, we’re all exceedingly immature for taking an actually socially acceptable nickname from the 1930′s and perverting it into penis jokes. But news flash, Dick’s character has evolved with taking that in stride and laughing it off. Changing his name only pisses us off and furthers our desires to make dick jokes. 

Fourth: What the fuck are you guys even doing allowing Lobdell near Jason? I get it Lobdell is some ‘big shot’ good ‘big name to have on a comic’ but his writing is shit, I’ve read better stories from Kindergartners. Lobdell is like the Russo brothers of DC, please remove him from our premise, and I petition for us, the fans, to take custody of Jason from Lobdell for the sake of global comic peace. The Dude Can Not For The Love Of God Write. I’m surprised he even knows how to arrange letters on a piece of paper to form words honestly.

Why aren’t Duke and Cass B’s kids? No seriously? Why!? We all know those are his favorite two kids, so wtf are they doing… anywhere else but with the Bats?

Why is Babs Batgirl? Don’t go with that female empowering crap answer, just don’t, she was a better icon as Oracle than as Batgirl. She’s long since outgrown the role, and she had grown beautifully into the role of Oracle, so run this by me again: Why did we take a beautiful survivor, who created empowerment for people with disabilities while remaining a strong female lead and turn her back into Batgirl? Seriously? Someone explain that to me!?

Thank God DC hasn’t fucked up Tim yet, but Can We Please Stop With Evil Batman Tim!? Tim doesn’t even want to be Batman! He Never Has Wanted To Be Batman!

WTF did you do with Damian’s character development? He is not this baby raging Bat anymore who seeks to kill everyone who crosses him. Also what the hell was up with the whole Dami’s got a secret prison thing? That lead to nothing and has since been dropped, but seriously people, who is the lead brain in DC right now allowing this shit!?

Again, I must ask, what’s up with evil Bat futures; have we NO HOPE that these boys can grow up and actually be decent people!? Really. I want to know. I don’t get the options you’ve given these heroes.

Why does B have a double standard when it comes to Kate and Jason; and don’t say it’s because Jason’s killed, Damian’s killed and B is trying to be a good dad to him, so what’s up with this shit!? Is it really so much easier to have the rift between B and Jay than attempt to amend it!? If B has a problem with Jason using guns then the same problem should be applied to Kate; I don’t care about her likability, she’s a bitch and the double standard should cease.

And why is Jason trying to connect with Willis Todd? Willis was an abuse fucker or did Lobdell for get his own canon material again? Someone please remove Lobdell from DC premises! PLEASE! Send him to Marvel or something, I don’t care, but stop allowing him to fuck over Jason because he wants to!

Now, again, I’m brought to the double standards B has and his own reckless behavior. DC please, either find a ethics and morals person to join your writing team, or grow a fucking brain because you are precariously close to having Batman become the killer and the villain.

Why are we isolating the Bats again, when they were so connected at the start of Rebirth? I want to read about the Batfamily BEING A Family! Not this divide and pit against each other crap. 

The worst part of all this is, Rebirth actually started off great! Now it’s a flaming pile of wreckage and I almost wish we’d go back to N52 if only to stop watching the same trainwreck over and over happen.