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thecostumeplot · 3 years

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Episode 21: Walk the Line & The Impossible

Both

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah

And I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Sarah

Hello!

Jojo

Hello, welcome back.

Sarah

How's it going?

Jojo

Yay. We actually recorded more often this month, and I still feel like it's been forever. [both laugh]

Sarah

I know! We're curring it fine again, too, where we're not that long from release. But that's okay. We have time. It's great. Here we are. We made it.

Jojo

Sorry. It's been a busy month.

Sarah

Jojo's had a lot going on. But we're glad. I'm glad you've made it. Here you are.

Jojo

Thanks. Still surviving somehow. [laughs]

Sarah

Yeah. So I have a thing that I want to talk about at the top of the show today. It's a little bit of self promotion. So I hope our listeners are okay with that. I am competing in the Her Universe Fashion Show, as you guys might know. And it's virtual this year, and there is an audience vote. [editor's note: Votes are now closed! I didn't win!] So I'm campaigning for votes right now! I need your vote. [laughs]

Jojo

Yay!

Sarah

If I win, if I win, I get the chance to design a line with Her Universe that gets sold in Hot Topic. So it's a really big deal. My look is "Hamilton"-inspired. And if you listen to the show, you know I am a big fan of "Hamilton".

Jojo

Yes.

Sarah

I'm really proud of it. And I got to shoot in a theater, like an abandoned theater, from the 20s. So like, I'm just so excited. So all the links that I have so far will be in the description of this episode. We haven't given been giving a lot information. It's on... I'll back up. It's on July 23. [laughs] At 5pm pacific time.

Jojo

Very important.

Sarah

Yeah, that's the important information. And it's part of Comic-Con@Home, San Diego Comic Con. And so we don't have any specific links for where to watch it yet. But I do have a link that will hopefully be updated as the info gets released. And then that will hopefully also have voting stuff. But yes, please watch. And then please vote for me, if you like my look.

Jojo

Yay! Definitely vote for Sarah.

Sarah

Thank you so much.

Jojo

I'm so excited to see it in person.

Sarah

I'm so excited too.

Jojo

I've only been seeing snippets of it.

Sarah

I know. If you follow me on social media, I've been trying my best to kind of like build some suspense. I made a little trailer in iMovie. I'm doing the thing.

Jojo

I saw that. I love it.

Sarah

I'm working hard on trying to get people interested, because I mean... more power to them, but I'm competing against some people who have multiple thousands of followers. Like, 25-100k. So I gotta find a way to stand out, you know, when I don't have that big of a fan base.

Jojo

Mmhmm. Right.

Sarah

Which, like, I'm excited for them that they have that. I just don't.

Jojo

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah

So.

Jojo

We'll get there eventually.

Sarah

I mean, maybe I'll win and then I'll be... my followers will just "whoosh!"... through the roof.

Jojo

That would be great.

Sarah

So then I'm Instagram famous. [both laugh] Okay. Yeah.

Jojo

Perfect. Onto our theme!

Sarah

Our theme this week! I'm going first this week, our theme is... are we calling this "based on real life events"? Is that what we're...?

Jojo

I think so. I think that's what we ended up deciding, like, based on true events.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

And however loosely that is, that is true.

Sarah

Yeah. So real people or real historical events. So I chose "Walk the Line". Because I'm not usually a biopic person. I often find them to be a little bit... I don't wanna say "heavy handed," but it's sort of like they're always sort of Oscar-bait movies. And they're really melodramatic sometimes, but I really like "Walk the Line". And I'm not even a giant Johnny Cash fan. I just love this movie.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

I think I also just really love Reese Witherspoon. So that helps a lot. She's...

Jojo

She's pretty great.

Sarah

...one of my faves. Okay, so I'll just dive in. It was released in 2005. So I was like, you know... it still feels like a very current movie to me, but it's very much not. Because that was...

Jojo

I know, I forget how far away 2005 was. Like, that really wasn't that long ago, but...

Sarah

Once again, just facing our own mortality on this show. Going, "What? ...Okay."

Jojo

How have we passed this many years already?

Sarah

[laughs] Exactly. It was directed by James Mangold, who is a very prolific director. He's done "Logan," "Ford v. Ferrari," "3:10 to Yuma," "Girl, Interrupted," and he's also a producer. So he produced "Greatest Showman," lots of blockbuster movies. And the costumes were designed by Arianne Phillips, who works a lot with James Mangold. So she designed a lot of those movies that I just mentioned, in addition to "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood," "Kingsman: The Golden Circle," "Nocturnal Animals," which I heard is not a very good movie, but the costumes are great. [laughs]

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And then she also has a really long-standing working relationship with Madonna. So she has styled basically everything Madonna has done, like in the last...

Jojo

That's amazing.

Sarah

...decade, at least. So, good for her. That's great.

Jojo

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah

Oh, and she also did a couple of really iconic movies that I haven't even seen. But if I can... I can imagine the looks from them. So those are "Tank Girl" and "The Crow". And I'm like...

Jojo

[gasps] Ooooh.

Sarah

...I know both of those visually, even though I haven't seen them.

Jojo

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah

So she's done a lot of great work.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

She has been nominated for three Oscars, one for "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood," one for "W.E.,", which makes sense, because didn't Madonna direct that?

Jojo

I think so.

Sarah

And then this movie. And she has not won an Oscar yet, but she probably will eventually.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And she has been nominated for a lot of Costume Designers' Guild Awards, and she won one for "W.E.". And then she also has a Tony for "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" on Broadway, because I think she did the movie as well.

Jojo

Oh yeah, I forgot she did that one. Yeah.

Sarah

Yeah. So it's cool... I like when-- it happened with my movie last week, too, where the designers also got to design the stage adaptation of the movie that they designed. I think that's cool. Okay, so the movie itself was in part based on two autobiographies, "Man in Black" from 1975, and "Cash: the Autobiography" from 1997. Although they say that the film goes deeper into some painful sort of subjects that Johnny Cash himself didn't really dive into in those books.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

I don't really have any other like background on the movie itself. I think they were trying to get it made for a really long time. And it just like, finally happened in 2005. So let me share my screen. I have a lot of pictures this week. So I think that, you know, I'll obviously put all of them on Pinterest, but I might have to weed out a few for Instagram, or I might have to do two posts, we'll kind of see how I feel.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

Partly because I have some real life pictures, as you can see, to compare to the movie.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And then also because we go through, like, three decades. We go from the 40s through to the late 60s. So there's a lot of periods being represented.

Jojo

A lot of period wear.

Sarah

I don't know why put this one first. That doesn't go first. That's not it. [both laugh] That one's first. Okay, so we open in 1944. I mean, basically, the story of this movie is Johnny Cash's life, which is... he starts growing up in rural Arkansas. And he loses his older brother very young, in a tablesaw accident, which is really sad. And it seems like it informs a lot of his life, and his trauma, throughout the movie.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And then he joins the military and gets married. And then he kind of hits it big in music. And then it's basically just about his musical career, and also his struggle with drugs and alcohol. And then also his eventual relationship with June Carter, who he falls in love with when he's already married to his first wife. And he doesn't exactly stay faithful to her. But then he and June...

Jojo

[laughs] As we well know.

Sarah

[laughs] Yeah. He and June eventually do get married. And, you know, after the events of this movie, they were married for like 35 years. Until they both passed away. So that's the story. It's Johnny Cash's life. Okay. So here we are in 1940s Arkansas, and I like these sort of first scenes, they're very warm in color, I feel like. Everything looks kind of dusty, but also really hot, you know, and it kind of sets the mood of this. They're very poor. So this is him and his brother, he... Johnny is on the left. And when he's young, he goes by the name JR. And he has a lot of guilt because his brother, he says, is the good son. Basically, his brother wants to be a preacher and is really good at minding his parents and is really helpful, and JR just feels lesser-than, like he's not as good as his brother. So.... Oh, also his dad is abusive. And his dad even says, after his brother dies, he says, "God took the wrong son," basically.

Jojo

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah

So that's gonna really impart some trauma on your child, to say something like that.

Jojo

Just a little bit.

Sarah

Just a little bit. Yeah, so this is them going fishing. And their little relationship is so cute, they're clearly very close. And so it's even more heartbreaking that one of them dies. And then this is his mom, who is the one who teaches him to sing and stuff. And this is... oh, I have this, and I was thinking about cutting it, but I have a picture of her later in the movie. So I wanted to compare, you know, her. Because she's not in a lot in the movie. But we see her go through a big change, you know, after Johnny is successful and is probably like, paying for her to have a happy life. A happy, comfortable life later in life.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

So, yeah... oh... yeah, I put these in a dumb order. Okay, this one. [both laugh] Sometimes I label them wrong.

Jojo

I do the same thing.

Sarah

So this is Johnny thing after he goes and serves in Germany. And that's kind of like... not really focused on in the movie. But... this is... he has a job, basically, as a door to door salesman, and he's not doing a very good job at it. So this outfit really says to me a real lack of personality, because he hasn't really found who he is yet. He hasn't found his own identity. He hasn't found even-- he knows that he likes to sing. But he hasn't really let himself think that maybe he could be a successful music artist.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And also, when he first tries, when he first starts a band, they do exclusively gospel music. And the radio guy who they meet with is like, "Gospel music doesn't sell anymore. What do you have?" And so he like, on a whim, plays him... the famous song about shooting man in Reno. Can't remember what it's called. [editor's note: "Folsom Prison Blues"]

Jojo

You're asking the wrong person, I'm so bad with names. [laughs]

Sarah

I don't know.

Jojo

I know what you're talking about, though.

Sarah

I honestly... "I hear a train a-comin'." I don't know. Anyway, I really liked this soundtrack in high school when it came out.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

I just don't remember the names of the songs. So this is them playing for that radio guy.

Jojo

Mmm.

Sarah

And it's not really communicated why he chose black. But black becomes, obviously, his signature color. Maybe it's just like, they all had black in their wardrobe. So they were like, "let's all just wear black."

Jojo

Right. Pretty standard color.

Sarah

Yeah. And his wife says, "It looks like you're going to a funeral." And throughout the movie, people tell him that. And he's like, "maybe I am."

Jojo

[laughs] "Maybe that's exactly what I'm doing."

Sarah

Let's see. So there's an LA Times article that's an interview with Arianne Phillips, and she says, "You can read a lot into it. Black is a very humble color, and Cash was a working man's man. He was also an outsider who didn't belong to the rock world, or the country world. And there was something shocking at the time about wearing all black. It's what you wore to funerals. So it worked for him on many levels." So he just becomes... he becomes the man in black, you know.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

This is his wife, Vivian. And I have a lot to say about her.

Jojo

[laughs]

Sarah

Because... so she's played by Ginnifer Goodwin, who we can see here, I like this. I really like this pattern of this gingham with the stripe, with the cardigan on top.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

I pulled it because it's like my favorite look of hers. But I want to talk about stuff that isn't even costume related when it comes to her character. So his wife, Vivian, let's get into it. She was...

Jojo

[laughs] Let's dive deep.

Sarah

I'm ready. She was a mixed race woman. And I found this out because a Twitter thread came across my page recently where it was like, "can't believe they cast Ginnifer Goodwin to play a black woman," basically. And I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are we talking about here?" So I did some research. Her grandparents were from Italy. And then Vivian, according to her at the time, her grandmother--I mean, her mother's family--was like, German and Irish.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

So in real life, Vivian was photographed at a court hearing with Johnny when he was arrested for drug possession. And in the photo, she looks darker skinned than him. And so at the time, I found an article... oh, in the Washington Post, and it said, "at the time in the eyes of most Americans, you were either black or you weren't." And interracial marriage would not become legal until 1967. So leaders of the racist National State's Rights Party in Alabama ran an article in their newspaper "exposing" Johnny for having a "Negro" wife, basically being like, "they're trying to hide the fact that she's black."

Jojo

Ahh. Right.

Sarah

And they were connected to the KKK, this organization was, and they boycotted him for like a year. So he had to basically file a counter attack and sue them for this, because Vivian at the time thought that she was white. She had gone to all white schools, and on her birth certificate, marriage certificate, it says Caucasian, because...

Jojo

Ah, right.

Sarah

That's what their whole family thought they were. So in THIS year, February of 2021, Roseanne Cash--Johnny's daughter, who is also a country star in her own right--went on the show "Finding Your Roots". Which is about genealogy and DNA tracing.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

And they found that Vivian Cash's--so Vivian, the wife's--maternal great great grandmother was an enslaved black woman named Sarah Shields, whose white Father, in 1848, had "granted her and her eight siblings their freedom and their passage into whiteness." So she married a white man. And by the time Jim Crow arrived in the 1930s, all of her children and their descendants were listed as white. So...

Jojo

Wow.

Sarah

...she had basically erased her own blackness, Sarah Shields did, from her descendants.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

So Vivian Cash did not even know that she had a black ancestor.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

So, I was ready to come on the podcast and be like, "Can you believe they whitewashed this character?" But in 2005...

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

...we were still taking Vivian's word for it--and her whole family's word for it--that she didn't have any black relatives.

Jojo

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah

So isn't that interesting? [laughs]

Jojo

That's so crazy. Like to, I mean, to not know that, too. I feel like...

Sarah

I know.

Jojo

...that's such a huge part of your identity, to not know for your entire-- I mean, for your adult life too, not even... like, it's one thing if you didn't know as a kid, because you just didn't know any better. But to have have that all throughout your adulthood, like, that's crazy.

Sarah

Yeah, it probably made the real Vivian's life easier that she had been passing, you know?

Jojo

Oh, yeah. Right.

Sarah

But it is kind of heartbreaking to know that, like, this enslaved woman's story wasn't known until now.

Jojo

Yeah. Until many, many, many years later.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

That's crazy!

Sarah

I know! So I just thought it was really interesting. The other thing I'll say about this character is that... this is the thing I don't like about biopics. It's that there's often, in the stories of great men--like, genius men--there's often a first wife or a first girlfriend who is just seen as a long-suffering wife, who has his children. But basically, the audience is kind of meant to see her as a complainer who's holding him back from achieving his destiny.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

And I definitely think that she serves that role in this movie. And it kind of is a disservice to her, because they were married for like 12 years.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And probably a lot of those years were really difficult for her. So I think it sucks for her to just be portrayed as like, she's holding him back from being the real Johnny Cash, and also holding him back from his relationship with June, which is also problematic.

Jojo

Right, right. I think that's a lot of biopics, too, it's like, you know.... Oh, you're right. She definitely... she definitely looks like she has some sort of Black in her history.

Sarah

Yeah, she looks darker skinned. And like, you know, at the time, she was probably just like, "Oh, I have olive tone. I have Italian, you know, Mediterranean DNA."

Jojo

Right, right. Right.

Sarah

Yeah. So that's the real life Vivian and Johnny. Okay.

Jojo

So interesting.

Sarah

I know, right? So I... that just kind of gave me the lesson of, like: don't get mad about things you see on Twitter without actually reading what they're about. [laughs]

Jojo

Do the research first.

Sarah

Yeah. All right. Moving on. Moving on. So this is Jerry Lee Lewis, and I love him. He's sort of... he has a more flamboyant style, obviously. My brother was watching this movie with me and said he looked really 70s, and I could agree with that.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Even though this is the 50s at this point. He has sort of, like, unbuttoned... very rakish hair. And then this is him in real life. So I feel like it's a pretty good job casting.

Jojo

Ohh. Yeah.

Sarah

Okay, let's talk about June because let's get to the main event, honestly.

Jojo

Yeah!

Sarah

This is a picture of Reese on set. So her hair is not... like, I think her hair is in rollers.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And she's just walking to or from. But this is the best picture I could find of this whole dress. There's not a lot of really good high quality pictures out there.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

And Arianne talks about this costume. So she says for June Carter Cash, she referenced 1950s Howdy Doody culture and Minnie Pearl, who... I don't know really who that is. Didn't Google it. "She found her talisman for the character at the Santa Monica Vintage Expo, a ruffled red organza dress with a sweetheart neckline and Swiss dot overlay," that she wears in basically her first scene. And they had to rework it, and redo it, because it was rotting, apparently.

Jojo

Ohh.

Sarah

So I wonder if that means that they replaced the whole lining, or did they take a pattern off it and basically make a replica? Unclear. Yeah. And she says, "the dress summed up for me the place that June Carter comes from as a child performer, as this comedic character at the Grand Ole Opry. I knew we would see her transform into a woman but the starting point was this cartoonish country girl." So June says in the movie that her sisters are the pretty ones and the talented ones, and that she had to learn to be funny.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And so we can see, sort of, it's a little immature and young-looking, and definitely sort of cartoony.

Jojo

Mmhmm. Very comedic.

Sarah

Yes, exactly. Here is that dress onstage. And they said... I watched an interview with her on YouTube as well. She said that they did a screen test in this video.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And the... not the network. The... the studio! That's the word I'm looking for. [both laugh] The studio got worried because the sleeves were really poofy. And it was just this sort of... it was more cartoony than they were originally... thinking.

Jojo

...Expecting. Yeah.

Sarah

Yeah. And when you book a name as big as Reese Witherspoon, the studio definitely wants Reese Witherspoon's fans to come to the movie and see Reese Witherspoon.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

Like, people are expecting to recognize her. So they don't want the costume to swallow her and be all that people can focus on. So...

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

...studio notes are often like, "Oh, make the lead sexier," or "tone this down."

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And I think that they took some extra ruffles off the sleeves from what it originally looked like. But it looks pretty-- they showed some footage of the screen test and it looks pretty much the same.

Jojo

Mmhmm. I mean, they still kept that poof sleeve too. I feel like there's still that. It doesn't take away enough from her, that you're not like, "oh, who is that?" Or like, "I'm so distracted."

Sarah

Yeah. Exactly. Agreed. So this is Johnny onstage. And he goes... we see a few of his sort of onstage outfits before he starts only wearing black. It seems like he started wearing exclusively black on stage in the 60s. So this is him in the 50s, it's this lovely red- burgundy.

Jojo

Yeah. Oooh.

Sarah

I like that.

Jojo

Does he have a design on his lapel too?

Sarah

Oh, it... does it say JC?

Jojo

Or J... oh yeah, that's pretty cool.

Sarah

It's hard to find pictures of this movie, which is surprising.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Like, I always expect, if it was nominated for costumes, that I'll be able to find really good pictures of the costumes.

Jojo

That's what you would think!

Sarah

Not so much.

Jojo

Nope.

Sarah

So this is June later on when they're on tour. And they're kind of just walking through town, having some time off. And so we see this in contrast to her stage persona, her real life wardrobe is a lot more subdued. It's still very sweet and feminine, but it's definitely more grown up, and as she goes through the movie, it definitely gets more and more grown up as she evolves and comes into her own. Oh... do have a picture? I don't think I do. So in the interview Arianne said she found an orange and green flowered dress, a vintage one, because apparently the budget was pretty small for this.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

So she used a lot of actual vintage, borrowed... you know, found for cheap. And one of them she found, she found an actual picture of June Carter Cash in that exact same dress! Like, she found the actual dress.

Jojo

Oooh. Yeah.

Sarah

But I couldn't figure out which dress it was, because she wears two that are orange and green floral. [laughs]

Jojo

"Which one?!"

Sarah

And it's not this one, but they're later in the movie. So I think I got rid of the pictures because I was like, "I don't know which one it is." So I can't really hold this up and be like, "See?"

Jojo

[laughs] Right. Right.

Sarah

So that was frustrating.

Jojo

I do love the floral motif that she has on a lot of her stuff.

Sarah

Yeah, I like the colors that she wears too. She doesn't stick to certain colors.

Jojo

Right. Right.

Sarah

I would say generally it's pretty warm. She does wear a little bit of blue. But yeah, it's just like a nice... you know, wardrobe.

Jojo

Fun. I would wear this skirt.

Sarah

Yeah, it's cute.

Jojo

If I wore skirts more often. [laughs]

Sarah

I wear too many skirts. Like, when I go to thrift stores I go to the skirts first and I ended up with... I have so many of them, and I keep buying them because I love them. Anyway.

Jojo

[laughs] They're great.

Sarah

So this is her onstage singing later in the movie. I think we might be moving into late 50s at this point. And then I have a full body shot of this. So once again with a floral motif.

Jojo

So cute!

Sarah

I know, right? She's got a little bit of a bouffant happening.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And this is definitely more streamlined in silhouette than that frilly one was at the beginning. So she's moving away from her cartoony image and into more of a serious singer.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

This is her onstage again. Once again, could not find great picture. I found some on a mannequin.

Jojo

So sad!

Sarah

I think it was auctioned, so here's this.

Jojo

So cute.

Sarah

And I thought, looking at this picture of her onstage, that it was beaded.

Jojo

Yeah, I was gonna say that's what I thought too.

Sarah

Yeah, cuz it's sparkly. But I found this, and you can see that it's like a metallic embroidery?

Jojo

Oh, yeah. It's almost like a trim.

Sarah

Yeah, it's very sparkly, but it's not actually beads. It's the fabric.

Jojo

I wonder if it's real metal, because you know how they used to have that on some of the trims?

Sarah

Right.

Jojo

That's probably what's creating that extra sparkle

Sarah

Could totally be. Okay, so what's next? We're moving into.... Okay, I have this picture, it's called "John is a mess."

Jojo

[laughs]

Sarah

Because he's a mess. This is when he basically has lost everything, he had a breakdown on stage. He's drinking too much. He's doing drugs. Vivian has left him at this point. So he's living in this nasty apartment.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And he's wearing this, it looks like a tux shirt, because of the pleats.

Jojo

Oh, yeah.

Sarah

But it's clearly very... he hasn't showered, it's very yellowed. Looking pretty gross. And then... oh, I liked this. Because we got to see some period children's wear. This is an upsetting scene, as you can see, the children are crying. [laughs] But...

Jojo

It's so funny to me, because it's always those little scenes of children that we're always like, "Okay, we HAVE to get these images." Because you just don't see them very often.

Sarah

I love period children's wear!

Jojo

I know. It's great.

Sarah

Children look so cute in vintage clothes.

Jojo

So cute. I can't wait.

Sarah

I was at a party the other day and one of the kids running around was wearing... it looked like a little Oktoberfest dirndl, but it was vintage.

Jojo

Yes!

Sarah

It was like a three year old girl wearing a vintage dress.

Jojo

Love that.

Sarah

And I was like, "that girl looks so good."

Jojo

On point, mom! On point.

Sarah

I know. I was like, "you're doing it correctly." I love that. Yeah, I mean... I haven't anything to say about them. They're just cute. And I like seeing period kid's clothes.

Jojo

Yeah. Yep. Agreed.

Sarah

Okay, how am I doing on time? I'm doing great on time! Yay.

Jojo

Woohoo!

Sarah

This is Thanksgiving, later when Johnny is starting to get his act together, but hasn't quite. But he invites basically his parents and then June and her parents, and it ends up getting very awkward because his dad is very... his dad sucks, basically, his dad is really mean. But this is in the 60s, as you can see from the hair, and such. [laughs]

Jojo

Yep.

Sarah

And on the left here, this is Johnny's mom. So she's gone through a big transformation since we saw her in the 40s, of course. She has money. She's hopefully happier, even though her husband sucks.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And then June in the middle is... oh, I have this dress. Here it is.

Jojo

So beautiful.

Sarah

It's pretty.

Jojo

It's that lantern sleeve that I love again!

Sarah

I know, we love a lantern sleeve.

Jojo

So funny. I keep seeing that everywhere. I'm like, "just looks good every time I see it."

Sarah

It does. And also, in my opinion, it's timeless.

Jojo

Yeah, I agree. It's a really elegant look.

Sarah

Yes.

Jojo

Especially, I mean, most of the ones I've seen happen to be transparent or some kind of see-through material. So maybe I'm just a little more biased, but I just think it looks really nice. And it's just, I don't know, it's kind of secretive and seductive while also being classy.

Sarah

Yeah, you're covered up, but you're not.

Jojo

Right, exactly.

Sarah

Totally. So this dress is, I think it's probably chiffon. It's this gorgeous burgundy. It looks so good with her brown hair.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And it's totally free of surface decoration, you know? So it's like her final sort of evolution into a more mature adult woman. And then, I would say, we talk a lot about how in period movies you can kind of tell what era they're made in, because they don't quite go all the way to the period.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And I think that we can see that in Reese's hair for a lot of the movie, and probably a little bit in the makeup too, because her makeup looks pretty modern for the time in a lot of the shots, like this one right here. I mean, she has a maybe a little liquid eyeliner on. And the lipstick is definitely pink. You know, that's definitely a 50s/60s color. But...

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

I think the way she's styled, they clearly wanted to make sure ...like I said, the studio wanted to make sure that people saw her.

Jojo

...It was a good enough balance that it still felt like it could relate to contemporary audience.

Sarah

Exactly. They don't want to make... they don't want to alienate her from her audience by making her look too removed from the Reese that we know and love. So I think that that's a pretty good balance, actually, that they struck, because this hairstyle is pretty period looking. But it's also... it also looks kind of 2005, so there's that.

Jojo

Yeah, seriously.

Sarah

All right. Oh, I was close to cutting this picture. But I was like, "couldn't possibly do it." This coat.

Jojo

I love it. Love it so much.

Sarah

So good.

Jojo

I do love a good pea coat. in general.

Sarah

It's... I love all coats. I love codes from all periods. I think everybody looks good in coats. I like summer a lot, but I will say some of my best outfits involve a jacket, because I love jackets and coats.

Jojo

Yeah. That's why I miss fall so much. All the pea coats you can wear.

Sarah

This is when she she takes him to... she's basically helping him get his his life together. And she takes him to church. So here they are going to church. And he's kind of like, I don't know... I like a lot of his offstage wear and I would have pulled some of it but this movie stays really tight on like, heads and shoulders. So there weren't any good screencaps I could find of most of the stuff he wears offstage. So, you'll just have to trust me that a lot of it's really cute. [laughs]

Jojo

I trust you, Sarah.

Sarah

All right. And here is his freakin'... like, he's back. He's at the record label being like, "guess what? I'm gonna play a show at Folsom Prison." And they're like, "Say what?" And actually, I enjoyed this because there was a scene of him getting dressed. So... ta-da. Close up on that fabric. I love it.

Jojo

Mmhmm. Ooh, yeah.

Sarah

Arianne said that while they had a small budget, the money they did spend was getting a lot of his stuff custom made. So...

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

...you can kind of tell, you know, it looks great, especially this outfit.

Jojo

That's usually how we prioritize, you know. The lead character usually is who gets kind of the more custom made items, or at least the ones that are... a little more focus are put on them.

Sarah

Exactly. And I think she probably saved a lot of money on shoes, because like I said, hardly any shots of anybody's full body in this movie. [laughs]

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

Okay, and then here's him performing at Folsom. And I like this because of the the stark visual contrast between all of the inmates in blue, and then him in black in the middle. I just think it's a really effective picture.

Jojo

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah

And then I have one last one. This is when they're performing on stage. And he proposes her onstage, which is a very sweet scene. But she also had said no to him so many times. Like, obviously, he knew that she was in love with him. And he could feel that and probably could feel that she wanted to marry him. But he also... it's also just a little bit like he pressures her into it. Just a tiny... it's still very sweet, though.

Jojo

Juuust a little bit.

Sarah

It's... Yeah.

Jojo

I mean, anytime you do something that public.

Sarah

Right, you're like...

Jojo

They don't really have another option.

Sarah

Exactly. You're like, "Oh, so you won't say yes on the tour bus. So you'll say yes onstage in front of hundreds of people." [both laugh] I like this outfit on June. I think it looks a little bit 2000s-y. But I wonder if it is vintage. And it just kind of happens to look contemporary?

Jojo

Yeah, like maybe a repeated silhouette or something.

Sarah

Yeah, exactly. But it's very nice. Oh, and then this is when we come to this picture, because this is them onstage in the 60s.

Jojo

Oh, cute.

Sarah

I know. As we can see, the hair; very different. They did not go for a full 60s bouffant on her.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

For reasons as we have discussed. But I love this little dress. Look at this kicky little skirt. So cute!

Jojo

Very cute.

Sarah

Okay, so the thing I just wanted to finish up saying, is I watched... like I said, I watched an interview with her. It was at a film festival of some kind, and it was her and James Mangold.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

The director. And she just brought up a couple points. And I was like, "let's chat about that a little bit." She talked a lot about how the wardrobe department is an actor's, basically, first foray into their character.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

It's often the first thing they do on the movie, having a costume fitting and meeting with the costume designer.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

So lots of times, the movie actor is coming from another project, they're really busy. You know, this is the first chance they've had to kind of stand there and be like, "oh, who is this character? What did they look like? How do they stand?"

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

So I just thought that was really interesting, that costumes are often their first chance to see themselves as the character.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And they also they find a lot of their physicality in costume fittings, how are they going to stand? How are they going to walk?

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

So I just thought that was a really good point. And probably something that average people don't necessarily know, is that like, the first thing is not a rehearsal, sometimes. Sometimes the first thing is costumes.

Jojo

Yeah. And that happens often very late in the game, especially for theatre. So it's like, sometimes... I mean, they have been doing their own research into the character, but once they actually see themselves. And I had that conversation with a few actors too, where they're like, "I was getting into my character, and I was understanding them a little bit. But it wasn't until I got into the costume that I fully embodied, like, who this character was." So that's always a kind of rewarding moment, I feel like, for designers. Because it really does mean you've thought about it... I mean, you both have thought about it. And you've clearly made those choices very intentionally. But to see the actor really get into the character that you've created for them too is a really nice part of the collaboration, I think.

Sarah

Totally. And things can change, obviously, that's what fittings are for.

Jojo

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah

And so something that you as a designer might think was perfect for the character, the actor might be like, "Well, I'm not sure, you know, if this is right, because of these reasons," and then you find, and you explore it together. And that's how it should be. It should be a dialogue and a relationship between you--the designer--the actor, and the director. It should be a collaboration and that's what I love about it.

Jojo

Right. And that's what makes it so collaborative, is that you are having an open dialogue about it, and that it's not just "you just do whatever I want." Although that sometimes may be the case, if you've had a really extensive conversation with a director. But yeah, I think that's very important. So that's cool.

Sarah

Yeah. And then the other thing she talks about is like, she said that she specializes in distracting actors during fittings. And I was like, "that's interesting." Because actors can often feel really objectified.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And I think it can be dehumanizing, especially, to be in a costume fitting when people are staring at your body, talking about your body, like you aren't in the room.

Jojo

Right?

Sarah

So it can be really hard when you make your living off of partially how you look.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

So she said she likes to just chat with them and get them out of their head and get them out of focusing on the flaws they see in the mirror and just really work on her relationship with them in the fitting. And I was like, "yeah, that's a good thing to do." Because you don't want them to feel like they're just a mannequin being dressed.

Jojo

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like sometimes those are the most.... Well, I guess I'm a little more biased, because most of the costume designers that I know, that I think are really successful, are the ones that do build that rapport with their actors, and sometimes become friends with their actors, because they've built up that relationship. And they've built that trust. And that's also-- I mean, you never know, an actor sometimes can be the one getting you the next job, too.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Even though people don't necessarily think about it that way. But you know, it's such a small industry, you really don't ever know who's going to get you your next job.

Sarah

Totally.

Jojo

So I think building that relationship with whoever you're working with, and in this case with actors, it's the most intimate relationship that you can have. It really does go a long way, when you're able to build that trust. I mean, you know, Arianne is the perfect example with Madonna, building up that trust and being that person that becomes her go-to. That's how she got a lot of her other work.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

So it's kind of a cool... like, you get to see sort of how the relationship changes and shifts and builds and still kind of benefits both parties, because of that trust. So that's always important.

Sarah

Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Jojo

So excitiing.

Sarah

So that's "Walk the Line". And those are my little side tangents that I was like, "let's chat about this, this will be fun."

Jojo

Good sidewalk conversations. [both laugh]

Sarah

Yeah. We like sort of diving into stuff that, you know, average, people who don't necessarily work in the industry might not think about or know. And it's all about shedding light and opening people up to what they might not know about.

Jojo

Yeah. And hopefully that's, you know, that's what makes our podcast interesting, too, is...

Sarah

I hope so too. [laughs]

Jojo

... hearing more of that stuff. And even though it is costume related, but yeah.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Opening it up to other things, because we don't just live in a vacuum of costume.

Sarah

Totally, it's not just about the pretty dresses, even though it we like those too.

Jojo

Yeah, very true.

Sarah

All right.

Jojo

Okay, let me...

Sarah

Are you ready? What's your movie?

Jojo

I'm doing "The Impossible," which... I'm just trying to get my stuff loaded up. So I can see my notes, as well as my pictures.

Sarah

Yeah, no problem.

Jojo

And I don't have a ton of pictures for this. Because again, very similar to Sarah, even though this movie actually got quite a few nominations, and Oscar wins, there were just really not a ton of pictures of this. And I mean, some of it is kind of understandable. Because it is a movie that is about a natural disaster. And so, you know, a lot of the costumes are naturally very, very distressed.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And it's not like it's some beautiful thing that you see on a mannequin that you can put on afterwards. It's really more about kind of seeing the realistic, I guess, and natural way that costumes can break down over time. So I kind of wanted to choose it for that reason, because as many of you know, I am really into distressing costumes. And I've talked about this in the past. So this, unfortunately... there were not a lot of pictures of all kind of the step by steps, which I wish that I could have gotten. But I'm going to try and at least get some kind of important beats throughout the movie, where we can actually see how the costume kind of changed, at least. And sort of how the the costume designer-- it was actually multiple--how they were sort of coming up with, you know, where these outfits came from and that kind of thing.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Okay, so really quick, just talking about some of the background for "The Impossible". The director is J.A. Bay... Bayona? I think that's how you say his name. I believe he's actually a Spanish--like, from Spain--director. I don't know exactly what his ethnicity is, but he did projects like "The Orphanage," which was his directorial debut. He also did "A Monster Calls," which I've never...

Sarah

Oh yeah.

Jojo

...I've never actually seen the movie but I have a whole book on all of the the creative visual effects that they did for that movie, which is phenomenal.

Sarah

I've read the book that that's based on, but I have not seen the movie.

Jojo

Okay. Yeah. And then he also did "Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom". So one of the newer ones.

Sarah

Okay! Wow.

Jojo

So his choices of what he directs is very, very eclectic and very versatile. So that was kind of interesting. But his directorial resume actually is not super long. But the fact is, even though he hasn't done a ton of projects, they've all been pretty big and well recognized at least. And then in terms of the costume designer, it was actually three people. And again, they're all... none of them are very big designers. Anne Bingeman, I think is how you say her name. She did "Deception". And she also did the the comedy "Bachelorette".

Sarah

Oh yeah, I've seen that.

Jojo

Yeah. Which I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." Very different movies.

Sarah

Did we watch that together?

Jojo

We might have! I feel like we did.

Sarah

With Jessica?

Jojo

Oh yeah, I think we did.

Sarah

[both laugh] I think we did!

Jojo

That's so funny, because I was like, "I know I watched it with somebody."

Sarah

That's really funny.

Jojo

And then Sparka Lee, which I thought was a very interesting name, literally spelled "spark" with an A at the end. She's mostly a costume supervisor and assistant. And I think that was kind of her role in this as well.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

But she did "The Constant Gardener". She was an assistant, I believe, for "Resident Evil," "Speed Racer," "The Reader," and then she was a supervisor for a lot of "The Queen's Gambit".

Sarah

Oh, nice.

Jojo

So she's probably had a little bit more of a recognizable career than the other two. And then the third costume designer was Maria Reyes. And she does a lot more foreign TV shows. So I don't think... there was a lot of stuff that I didn't recognize, I wrote them down. But they're not things-- they're not titles that I recognize. They're "Merli," "Oh Happy Day," which is also a TV show. And then "La torre de Suso," which I think is also a movie. But again, all titles that I was like, "I've never heard of any of these things." But maybe it's just because it's in a different country. And I've just haven't seen them.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

So yeah, so that's just a little bit of background. Just to tell you a little bit more about the actual event that this was based on... it follows a tourist family who ends up heading to Thailand, and this was back in like 2004. So there was a huge tsunami, which is actually... it said that it was one of the largest tsunamis in record, even to today. And that occurred in the Indian Ocean. So basically it pretty much wiped out the entire coast of Thailand in 2004. So there were, let's see, what were the statistics that I wrote down? It was considered the deadliest tsunami in recorded history. It was a 200 foot wave. It wiped away entire towns and the lives of over 200,000 people across 14 countries.

Sarah

Oh my god.

Jojo

So this thing was huge. And it was traveling from Indonesia. But this this particular movie focuses mostly on Thailand. And then the death toll in Thailand was nearly 5400, including 2000 foreign tourists.

Sarah

Wow.

Jojo

So this focuses on one specific tourist family who, miraculously, all five of the family members ended up surviving. But there were obviously a lot of other tourist deaths that were also happening at this time.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

So just to give you a little bit more background, because again, I don't have a ton of pictures. But I was curious how well they translated, I guess, what happened in real life versus what happened to this family, because it is a very isolated event. And actually, it only took place over about two days.

Sarah

Oh, wow.

Jojo

But of course, the entire time during the movie, you're just like... I was like crying and tense and all these other emotions, just because I was like, "I don't know what's going to happen to these people, even though I kind of do."

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And also you're just watching them almost drown multiple times. And I think he spends a lot of time focusing on them underwater, getting hit and all this debris and everything. So of course, all those moments, you're kind of just sitting in tension, waiting, and hoping that they're going to resurface and and be able to breathe and survive. But the original family... and this is what I wanted to kind of touch base on, because I was a little confused. And there is a lot of critiquing about how they portrayed this movie, because the original family that survived was actually Spanish.

Sarah

Oh.

Jojo

And of course, all the actors that they cast for this were all well known white actors. And I think there was a back and forth of like, well, they chose these white actors. And there's a lot of white savior complex in there, even though there is you know, obviously they were in Thailand, and so they took a lot of the locals to portray, you know, the hospitals and the nurses and all the people that ended up helping. But the big critique was that it was essentially at the very end of it, the white family that survived while they didn't really focus on how much it actually affected the Thai people in the aftermath.

Sarah

Do you know if if the family, the original family, was Spanish from Spain? Or were they Hispanic?

Jojo

I believe they were from Spain. So yeah, not Hispanic, sorry.

Sarah

There are white people in Spain but like...

Jojo

Correct.

Sarah

...it still would have been better to cast actual Spanish people.

Jojo

Yeah. And I mean, it's very clear, the original lady was named Maria Belón. She was a physician. And then her husband's name is Enrique Álvarez. So you know, it's interesting the choices that they made. And you know, in justification, they actually did have the original Maria Belón come back, and literally be an advisor on--and guider on--the entire film.

Sarah

That's good.

Jojo

So she had a lot of, like... she was telling a lot of her own experience. And they said that their first interview with her... because I think she was also trying to figure out if these filmmakers were the right people to tell her story. Her first interview with them was actually five hours long, just her telling what happened.

Sarah

Wow.

Jojo

And I was like, "five hours?" Like, I can't even imagine. So a lot of, actually, what happened to Naomi Watts in the movie did in fact happen to Maria, in very much the same way. Even the way that the tsunami originally, or initially, approached them or attacked them. Like, they said that they actually had the family members standing in the same exact spot at that resort, where their family was. And I was like, "yikes." Like, I don't-- as an actor...

Sarah

Wow.

Jojo

...I don't know that I would.... Like, that would have been so mentally like... I'm not ready for this.

Sarah

That's a... that's heavy. That's like...

Jojo

It is.

Sarah

...that's a lot.

Jojo

Definitely. And they actually, so they were from Japan originally. Sorry-- they lived in Japan for Álvarez's job. And then they ended up going to Thailand for Christmas. So they were actually there for holiday.

Sarah

It was Christmas time?

Jojo

Yeah. So crazy.

Sarah

That is heartbreaking.

Jojo

And then they said that in terms of the actual injuries that she suffered--because I was also curious about how much of that they translated--Belón apparently suffered severe thigh and chest injuries, which is also what they did in the movie for Naomi Watts. So like, very, very much exactly like what she experienced was what they kind of recreated.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Both parents ended up being separated from their children. So they had three sons, Lucas, Simón, and Tomás were the original names. They changed them to very white names of Lucas, Simon and Thomas.

Sarah

Ooh.

Jojo

And then even Enrique, they changed to Henry. Maria, they kept as Maria. But their last name was actually Bennett instead of, you know, Maria Belón and Álvarez.

Sarah

That's...

Jojo

So like that part of it, I was a little bit like, "uhhhh..."

Sarah

How do you excuse that? Like, how do you... we wanted to get the movie made, and we didn't think that they would fund a movie with no white people in it?

Both

[editor's note: our apologies, we do know that Spain is primarily Caucasian. Our use of "white people" in these exchanges is incorrect. We meant that instead of casting people who looked like the familiy--dark hair and olive skin--they cast very fair people and Anglicized their names, essentially changing the fact that the family is Spanish.]

Jojo

Right. And I think that was the one person that critiqued it. They were like, "why did they choose not to use a, you know, a more well known celebrity that was from Spain?"

Sarah

There are a lot, yeah.

Jojo

Like, I think they had mentioned Penélope Cruz as an option, you know, things like that. And it was interesting because Maria, the original lady, actually said that when she talked to Naomi Watts, she felt the most... like she could relate to her the most when they were talking about the role.

Sarah

Okay.

Jojo

So I was like, "Oh, that's interesting that she connected the most with a white lady to represent her." Like...

Sarah

Yeah, I'm glad that basically she gave her blessing on it.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

Like, I'm glad she's not upset by the decision. Yeah, but it is kind of bad optics, you know?

Jojo

Very much so, especially now. I mean, this was created a couple years ago, but like...

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

...you know, it's just weird to think about it now, when everything is so much more sensitive about that.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Okay. So let's see. One thing that I did want to mention, Naomi Watts quoted Belón when they spoke, she said, "Belón felt completely sure of her instinct." And this was like, during the time of the tsunami, everything that happened. She said, "Nothing got in the way of her instinct, and she'd never had that feeling before." So I think that was something that really helped Naomi kind of get into her character as well. Which you definitely do see that, like they make Naomi a little bit more fearful, I think, in the movie. Like she... when they start off on the plane flying to Thailand. She's already nervous about all the bumpiness on the plane.

Sarah

Hmm.

Jojo

And then when she goes into the actual... when she actually has to save her son, or try to reach her son, there's a little bit more of a jump of her anxiety, becoming a mother and trying to save her children. So moving on to costumes.

Sarah

Costumes!

Jojo

Sorry, I spent way too long talking about that, but I figured I would at least show some background. [laughs]

Sarah

Yeah, it's good to have that information.

Jojo

Before we talked about it.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

So I wanted to show you the original family. And you can tell they're... they look very Spanish, like from Spain. Like, all their features are very "from Spain." And then you have the white family that represents them. So... so yeah, it's quite a big difference. Ewan McGregor plays Henry.

Sarah

[laughs] I'm sorry.

Jojo

Naomi Watts plays Maria, obviously... I know.

Sarah

We couldn't even put them in dark hair? Like, we couldn't even dye their hair? Okay. All right.

Jojo

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah

They had to be blonde.

Jojo

And then we had, interestingly enough, this is actually Tom Holland.

Sarah

Oh my god!

Jojo

So funny, because I was like, "Oh, yeah, I forgot he was in this movie!"

Sarah

Little baby.

Jojo

He's so, so young in this movie. And he plays our oldest child, Lucas. And then we have our middle child, our little blond, blue eyed kid, who I believe is Simon. And then our youngest is Thomas. So I kind of wanted to pull this picture out, just because throughout the movie, the designers actually kept a really, really tight palette for them. So it was a lot of really nice earth tones. They're mostly in... like, if it's white, it's a kind of cream. I mean, this is probably the lightest white, and it's only the mom.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

The rest of the time, most of the guys are either in blues or greens, you'll see a lot of kind of deep grays, or kind of cooler tone grays. So I think they really did a good job of kind of sticking to that.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And then... and this is all, of course, before everything happens.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

This is a little out of order. But this was the original outfit that Maria is in. And this is pretty much the outfit she's in the entire time she's suffering through this tsunami. So she starts off, obviously, in this white tank top and the blue shorts. And of course, throughout the movie, there's so much that's happened. She's like, drowning in muddy water. So this totally looks like a completely different outfit by the end of this.

Sarah

Right.

Jojo

But this is sort of where she starts.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Okay, and then... so this was actually supposed to be before the other one. But this was basically one of the nights before the tsunami hits. They actually have a little lantern, which is very famous in Thailand, they do the lantern release.

Sarah

Oh yeah. Mmhmm.

Jojo

Where they're seeing the lanterns fly into the sky. And this is kind of their last calm and nice moment as a family. So I love that, again, it's still earth tones, but these beautiful greens that the costume designers decided to use here really kind of ties them into the the natural setting of Thailand as well.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

She actually ends up putting these kind of tropical flowers in her hair. So it's this very tropical feeling, you know, they are on vacation.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

So I did love that they kind of tied everyone together very tightly, in terms of color. Alright, so...

Sarah

Oh boy. Here we go.

Jojo

...after the tsunami hits, you can already see her white tank top has turned yellow.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

She's already covered in mud. And even her blue shorts have kind of turned sort of a gray. It looks like they've kind of given her some... almost like salt stains.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Because this is after the water has kind of died down. But she's sort of still... kind of trying to find her way to help. They end up picking up this kid, which apparently this also happened in real life. They actually found a stray kid that they helped for a little while named Daniel.

Sarah

Oh my gosh.

Jojo

And in the movie they totally just make it a happy ending where he finds his dad, and they see him reunite with his dad. In the real situation, apparently Daniel was never found again. Like, somehow he got separated from them a second time and they never found out what happened to him.

Sarah

Oh, no.

Jojo

So it's like... it's just this really heartbreaking moment.

Sarah

That's too dark, too dark for the movie, I guess.

Jojo

It really is, it really is.

Sarah

Oh, that's so sad.

Jojo

And you can kind of see even with Lucas, he, you know, he's still got that kind of blue swimming shorts. I mean, like I said, there's not a ton of costume, interesting things here because they're in swimwear.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

They're at the pool when the tsunami hits. So it's like, very kind of bare minimum clothing.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

But you do start seeing how much this kind of changes, even just seeing all of the different details of what water does to our clothes, after being in a muddy tsunami. And the other thing, too, that's interesting is she was wearing a swimming suit under this when everything happened, and somehow the swimsuit has just sort of disappeared.

Sarah

Oh!

Jojo

Because during this time, she actually... underwater, gets stabbed in this, in the rib cage. And also a whole chunk of her back thigh is just missing. So there's a scene where-- I didn't want to show it because it was just very, very graphic.

Sarah

That's fine. [laughs]

Jojo

But you see the kid walking behind her, and he just sees a chunk of her leg just flapping down and he's like, "I can't."

Sarah

Ugh!

Jojo

He's like, "I can look at you right now," and so she makes him walk in front of her, so he doesn't have to look at it. And that's why she has this little thing tied around her leg, to like, keep the skin up. And I'm like, "oh my god."

Sarah

Oh god. [laughs]

Jojo

But yes, it's a lot of... and again, this is where it kind of gets down to the nitty gritty of like, this costume crafts person had to understand what each of these steps were. Like, everything that hits her has to somehow show up on her clothes.

Sarah

Yes.

Jojo

So you know, you start seeing the blood kind of dripping and staining from the side-- the side injury, but then you also see the blood kind of getting on some of her pants.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

It's just like, I don't know, it's so much to think about. Especially in a natural disaster, this where literally everything is making you dirty. [laughs]

Sarah

Yes, that's the daunting part of distressing, I think. Like, you must have to completely storyboard it.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And then that's how you figure out how many duplicates you need. And you must have to like, just lay it all out.

Jojo

Yeah. And I... you know, even in this, it's like, they must have had to have, you know, 15 or 16 copies of this shirt alone.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Like, even just for a 20 minute segment, just because she goes through so much trauma, and she's still wading through water even after it kind of subsides. So like, there's still things that are happening, because she's still trudging through terrain, so...

Sarah

Well, and then you're like, "Okay, so how many times does she have to do to the take," you know.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

"Do we need a fresh one at the beginning of every take, so that she can get wet?"

Jojo

Right, exactly.

Sarah

So yeah, it's so much to think about.

Jojo

And that also makes me wonder why we have, you know... it's probably why they had three costume people.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And also why they had a supervisor in addition to, you know, maybe a more seasoned designer, because someone who's a supervisor understands more of that craft stuff. And usually, they'll either at least have someone on hand that they know who can do that, or they're often the ones doing some of the craft stuff.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

So it's, you know, it's sort of interesting how they pulled together their team. Like, it makes a lot more sense when you're looking at the amount of craziness that has to happen to these costumes in terms of breaking them down.

Sarah

Yeah. And you need people on set who know exactly what is supposed to be happening when.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

So I think that is... that's kind of probably what a supervisor would do too, right? Is be, like...

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

...in charge of knowing which one is for which scene.

Jojo

Right, right, and making sure everything is organized in such a way that they don't get those mixed up.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

But yeah. Okay.

Sarah

Wow, oh no.

Jojo

So this is the next stage. She gets basically dragged through... I mean, there's quite a few things that happen in between this, of course, but a big part of this--the original story, too--was that a Thai man actually ended up dragging her through the mud. And like, this is so hard to watch, because she's just screaming in pain the entire time. And they just-- they're just dragging her through grass, and like...

Sarah

Ohh.

Jojo

...mud and all these other things. And she... you know, it's the back of her leg. So it's just getting ripped up even more. But that's his only way of trying to get her to a hospital and get her to somewhere safe.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And you see her son in the front. Like, it's interesting, because clearly the people making this movie did not want to hurt children or make them look hurt. So like, the two youngest kids, don't look distressed or dirty or anything at all.

Sarah

[laughs] Not bloody.

Jojo

You see maybe one or two scenes where Tom Holland gets kind of beat up under the water, but you know, in terms of the amount of pain and injury that he sustained, it's much, much less than...

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

...what Naomi Watts goes through.

Sarah

People don't want to see kids getting hurt.

Jojo

It's so true. So yeah, they definitely kept them pretty clean in general. But she, again, she gets stabbed right in the side. And then it's really gross. Like, they actually show her boob all sliced up underneath. And so, you know, her son's obviously freaking out because she's like, falling apart in front of him.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

And so she ends up having to tie one of her tank top straps to the other side, just to, like, cover herself.

Sarah

Uh huh.

Jojo

So yeah, it's just, you know, this looks so horrible here. But again, it just shows you this is sort of the next few steps that our craftsperson had to pay attention to.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

She's getting dragged through the mud. She's also got all the blood on top, she's probably bleeding more because she's being dragged through other stuff. So it's just all those things that you have to pay attention to. Because as humans, that's what would happen in real life.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

So yes, so she ends up wearing pretty much this outfit for the rest of the time until she's she's able to get to the hospital.

Sarah

Wow.

Jojo

Okay, so Tom Holland. Obviously when he gets to the hospital, somehow he finds a shirt. Or like, they end up... so when they get to the actual Thai village, where it's a little safer, they actually have a-- it's basically like all the local people end up coming and, you know, putting... they end up giving her a shirt. They end up, you know, giving Lucas another shirt. But one of the reasons I wanted to pull this image is not just because it's like, "Okay, great, now we have a costume change." But it kind of also goes to show the kind of clothes that are overseas. Because a lot of times, overseas countries do end up just getting, essentially, the waste that America gets rid of.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

So it's interesting that we're looking at graphics that look a little bit more American, but it's almost like it's faded out, or it's not quite there anymore.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Like these are old clothes that have been discarded from elsewhere.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

So I kinda want to just pull that in. Because I mean, it just says... even with how kind of dingy it looks, it tells you a lot about what's actually in the rest of the world, and how other people manufacture clothing, or even get clothing from other places. Or wealthier places.

Sarah

Yeah, I think, you know, Americans at large don't necessarily think about what happens to our clothes when...

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

...you know, they can't even be sold in Goodwill or whatever.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

That's what happens, is that we ship them to other countries and just... make it their problem instead of ours.

Jojo

Yeah. Yeah. And like, he gets this as a new shirt, but you can see how torn up the collar is, and how the sleeves are all torn up.

Sarah

Yeah. And the graphic is faded.

Jojo

So yes, I just thought that was a really interesting way to kind of introduce that.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Okay, so then the second half of the movie, they kind of go... I mean, because the first half of the movie you're really focusing on how Naomi is able to find her son, and they stay together, and how they're able to get to the hospital.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And hers is probably the much more traumatic experience, because I think she obviously went through a lot more injuries. Somehow, Ewan McGregor stays fairly intact and untouched through all of this. Which is weird. But he's also in the pool with his kids when he starts.

Sarah

Oh.

Jojo

And I wanted to pull this image, even though it's the dirty version of this, because he has these pretty standard Hawaiian blue swimming trunks. But in the beginning, his kids are just making fun of how ugly they are. [laughs] And so it's just funny that, you know, it... obviously, it's not a huge thing, but then they just get so dirty and ripped up by the time he gets through the tsunami. And yet, somehow, the only injuries he sustains are maybe a few scars here and there on his face.

Sarah

Wow.

Jojo

And when they find him, or when he starts his kind of portion of the story, he's still back at the resort. So somehow, he's survived enough after the water has kind of subsided, to still remain at the resort. And he's somehow found his two kids. So like, apparently, they were also clinging to a tree. And that's how he found both of them. Like, they were both, you know, just holding on.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And so at this point, the water has subsided. The rest of the movie, his goal is to just basically find his wife and his kids, because he feels like they're alive, even though no one else seems to think so. So I just wanted to pull that image really quick, because that's mostly what he's in until he's able to find a shirt.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Later on, this is still him looking for his wife, he's kind of talking to his kids and trying to convince his middle child that he has to take care of Thomas, because you know, they're going to go somewhere safe to the top of the mountain so that it's far away from the water. And then he's going to keep looking for his wife. So basically, this is sort of like a "grow up, you gotta man up and take care of your younger brother."

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Because he's also the kid that's afraid of everything at the beginning of the movie.

Sarah

Aww. I relate to that.

Jojo

Okay, so moving on. This is actually... I believe this is one of my last ones. I wanted to pull this because she's one of the few characters that kind of gets a little bit more screen time, other than the guy that drags Naomi Watts through the mud. And she actually does speak pretty fluent English, because she's one of the ones that finally kind of is able to converse with Lucas when he's trying to find... at a certain point in the hospital, he loses his mom temporarily. So she finally is able to converse with him and calm him down and try to help him find his mom again. And so she's kind of... it's still a really, really small role. And again, another big critique is that the local people just aren't given much of a character in this movie. But she ends up kind of having this big long conversation with him and she ends up kind of being his trustworthy, like, go-to nurse.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

So she has a very small part, but you do see her represented a little bit more. And I kind of just wanted to show, again, their uniform is clearly not pristine, like we are used to seeing in the States.

Sarah

Right.

Jojo

It's clearly like, this is the shirt that she got. And it's probably whatever "Goodwill" version that she got out of wherever she could find. And that's their uniform for the hospital.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

So I just thought that was interesting, to sort of represent kind of what the local people were wearing. And I didn't do enough research to find out how accurate this actually was.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Or if this is just something she wore on her own, versus an actual, you know, hospital issued uniform.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

And then last one.. they talked about-- like, I just kind of pulled this image because again, they haven't really changed. But this is sort of where they finally find each other. And this is after a very long like hour and a half of the movie. So within that last half hour, Lucas finally finds his two brothers, and then they finally find their dad.

Sarah

Aww.

Jojo

So there was this really heartwarming moment. And again, it's sort of like a double edged sword, right? There's so many other people that die during the tsunami that aren't focused on in this movie. And yet, the white family is the one that survives. So I think that was one of the biggest critiques of this movie, of how whitewashed everything was.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

But you know, it's at the end of it, it's still a very heartwarming happy ending, I think. Unfortunately, audiences don't... well, I shouldn't say "unfortunately," but audiences don't really like to see a sad ending for things like this, where it is a natural disaster that's totally out of your control.

Sarah

Right.

Jojo

But it is also one of those things where, you know, it makes you wonder, what about all those other families that didn't make it? So... Yeah, anyways, that was the last thing I had for this movie. Again, a really hard thing to watch.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

But I did like that they at least brought the original survivor into the discussion and didn't just try and like, fake it or make something happen that wasn't really happening.

Sarah

I feel like if I was making this movie, which... I don't make movies, so whatever. But I would probably try to tell a bunch of family's stories, you know?

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Instead of... you can get the real life testimony from the survivors and try to do justice to their actual story.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

But you could also add in some side characters who are on their own sort of struggle and journey, and maybe not all of them have happy endings, you know?

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Like, you could tell the story in a way that was sensitive to the actual family who survived this. And then... but also sensitive to everybody else who didn't find their family.

Jojo

Right. Which... I think, you know, they did do a little bit of that.

Sarah

Yeah?

Jojo

When Lucas is running through the hospital. Because while his mom is laying kind of in the hospital ready for surgery, he ends up... just because he doesn't know what to do with himself. So he ends up running around the hospital, and all these people end up reaching out to him and being like, you know, "have you seen this person?"

Sarah

Mmm.

Jojo

Like, most of them are parents asking for their sons, or their kids.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

And so he starts going around, he starts taking their names down, and walking around the hospital and just yelling out names, being like, "anybody recognize this name?" So there is a little bit of that, that I think they tried to throw in there to like, redeem some of it.

Sarah

[laughs] Yeah.

Jojo

But yeah, you know, it is one of those things where I think you see maybe two families reunite-- including that kid Daniel, who in real life, we never find out what actually happens to him. But there is another family who... the son and the father get reunited, because Lucas ends up finding him.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And then there's another mom who also goes, like... she has a similar situation and ends up having to go into surgery kind of right next to Maria's character. And you never find out what happens to her. Like, she goes into surgery. And she, I think she writes her name on Maria's arm, so that she won't forget her name, because she was like, "I have a family too. And I just want to say bye to them one last time before... I don't know if I'm going to survive this surgery," kind of thing.

Sarah

Oh, wow.

Jojo

And then she goes into surgery, and you never see her come back out. So you know, there's a lot of unfinished stories, which, you know, I think they tried to do that. Which is probably why this movie lasted two hours. Like, I forgot that that was long it was. [laughs] And I was like, "how are they going to make a movie about a tsunami last two hours?" [both laugh] But you know, they did it. So... so yes, it was interesting to see how they were able to kind of translate some of that. And like, show all of it. I think, you know, again, at the end of the day, I'm kind of like, "what was the reasoning behind switching to a white family when it didn't have to be done that way?"

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Like, you know, it's one thing if you're resonating with that particular actress. But like, they could have even kept her husband, you know, Spanish. Or... I don't know, something like that.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

I'm not a filmmaker. So who knows? But...

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

...but yes, it does make me wonder what their choices are, what their motivations behind those choices were.

Sarah

It's hard to justify that, you know, in a way that really makes a lot of sense. Other than...

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

"...we were worried about money. We were worried that people wouldn't pay to see a movie about people who weren't white," which is like... [grimace sound] [laughs]

Jojo

Right. And then last fun fact I wanted to share was when they did the tsunami, apparently he built a water tank. And that's how they filmed the whole movie. I think it was very similar... I can't remember the other movie you said that they did that for. But there was another one.

Sarah

"Parasite"?

Jojo

Yes. Yeah.

Sarah

Yeah, I just transcribed that one.

Jojo

They built a water tank. And like, they just... you know, they kind of just did most of their swimming in there.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

And then they just added some digital, you know, extra effects or visual effects afterwards for the extra stuff. But I was like, "That's so crazy," because I can't imagine trying to film. He tried to use as much real water as possible, though.

Sarah

Oh, wow.

Jojo

He was like, "I wanted it to be as authentic as possible." So a lot of the tidal waves that come in, and things like that, all of that happened for real. And I was like, "yikes," that's... that's so crazy and scary. Like, I can't imagine.

Sarah

Yes, I feel like that would be very hard. But also I think about actors and I'm like, "a movie where you're wet the whole time?" That just has to suck to shoot.

Jojo

Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Sarah

Just wet for two months.

Jojo

And where you have to constantly change costumes, just to make sure you're continuous. Like...

Sarah

They're like, dumping buckets on you before they start. Ugh.

Jojo

Yep, yep. So yeah, must have been a very grueling process. For sure.

Sarah

Yeah. Yeah.

Jojo

But yeah, that's my coverage of "The Impossible."

Sarah

Great job.

Jojo

Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah

I'm glad you covered that, because I am glad I know about that movie now. But that's the kind of movie that would stress me out deeply to watch. So now I got the experience of watching it without having to actually watch it. [both laugh]

Jojo

So funny. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I will definitely say, the scene where she reunites with her son--and she's trying to get back to him because they're so far apart--and they see each other and they're both screaming for each other, but they can't get close enough to each other. And there's a whole scene where they're reaching across a mattress, but they can't touch hands, because it's too far away. And they're still also trying to avoid debris under the water that they can't see. And I'm just like, "this is so stressful!" And I feel like I don't know what I'd do if this was me, and my parents. Or like, me and a child that I cared about. [laughs]

Sarah

I hope we never have to find out what that's like.

Jojo

Agreed. Agreed. [both laugh]

Sarah

Oh, man.

Jojo

But yes. So yeah, that's our coverage of true event movies.

Sarah

Very different films we picked, from each other. [laughs]

Jojo

Absolutely.

Sarah

That's good. We like to keep it spicy. Keep it fresh.

Jojo

That's true. It's very true.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Keep your interest peaked.

Sarah

Exactly. [both laugh]

Jojo

Oh, man. Well.

Sarah

Okay.

Jojo

Thank you so much, Sarah, that was so much fun.

Sarah

Thank you, JoJo.

Jojo

Thank you guys for joining us. And again, if you have any comments or questions or just other things you want to add, maybe more information about either of our movies that maybe we didn't cover, please feel free to add or comment on Instagram.

Sarah

Yes! Totally.

Jojo

We are behind on YouTube. So I will get back on that this week. Sorry. It's been a crazy month. But thank you for being patient with us.

Sarah

Yes.

Jojo

And we look forward to hearing all of your comments and notes and questions and everything else.

Sarah

Yes, we appreciate your patience as we, you know, try to fit doing this podcast around our regular lives. [laughs]

Jojo

So true. Well, thanks again and we'll see you on the next one.

Sarah

See ya. Bye.

Jojo

Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at [email protected].

Sarah

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

0 notes

aion-rsa · 3 years

Text

Jupiter’s Legacy: Mark Millar on the Genesis of His Superhero Story

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Superheroes have a long history. After flying onto the scene more than eight decades ago, led by Superman, along with fellow octogenarians Batman, Wonder Woman, and Captain America, the pantheon of capes-and-tights characters has expanded to include countless more. And as legendary creators made their mark across decades, the origins and powers of these icons transformed almost as frequently as their costumes.

Meanwhile, the superhero team The Union, from the comic book saga Jupiter’s Legacy, have 90 years of consistent fictional history, with a singular overarching story, envisioned by one man: Mark Millar.

After discovering both Superman and Spider-Man comics the same day, at the age of four in Scotland (where he grew up), the now 51-year-old writer would go on to make a significant impact on the superpowered set. But he wanted his own pantheon.

And with Jupiter’s Legacy, Mark Millar has created a long history of superheroes of his own—now set to be adapted as a Netflix series.

“I wanted to do an epic,” he says. “Like The Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars… the ultimate superhero story.”

Co-created with artist Frank Quitely and published by Image Comics in 2013, Millar calls Jupiter’s Legacy his love letter to superheroes—and part of his own legacy.

The story begins in 1932 with a mysterious island that grants powers to a group of friends who then adopt the costumed monikers The Utopian, Lady Liberty, Brainwave, Skyfox, The Flare, and Blue Bolt. Told on a grand scale with cross-genre influences, the story spans three arcs: the prequel Jupiter’s Circle (with art by Wilfredo Torres), Jupiter’s Legacy, and the upcoming June 16, 2021 release Jupiter’s Legacy: Requiem (featuring art by Tommy Lee Edwards). With the May 7 debut of the Jupiter’s Legacy series on Netflix, the story will now also be told in live action.

Millar established himself in the comics industry in 1993 and crafted successful stories including Superman: Red Son, Wolverine: Old Man Logan, The Ultimates, and Marvel Comics’ Civil War—all of which have inspired adaptations and films, and led to him becoming a creative consultant at Fox Studios on its Marvel projects. His creator-owned titles Kingsman: The Secret Service, Kick-Ass, and Wanted, have likewise spawned hit movies.

But compared to Jupiter’s Legacy, none of those possessed such massive scope and aspiration as the story that explores the evolving ideologies of superpowered individuals, and how involved they should be when it comes to solving the world’s problems. Relationships are forged—and shattered by betrayal—with startling violence and titanic action sequences (both part of Millar’s signature style).

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“From Superman and the Justice League to Marvel to British comics—inspired by guys like Alan Moore, and so on, I’ve thrown it in there… it’s got a bit of everything,” he says.

That “everything” extends beyond comic books. Millar drew inspiration from King Kong’s Skull Island, and references the cosmic aesthetic of 2001: A Space Odyssey, which informed the “sci-fi stuff.” The writings of horror author H.P. Lovecraft “were a big thing for me,” when it came to The Island, created by aliens, “that existed before humanity, and that these people are drawn out towards where they get their superpowers.” The character Sheldon Sampson/The Utopian is a Clark Kent/Superman type, but his cohort George Hutchence/Skyfox is more than a millionaire playboy stand-in for Bruce Wayne. Rather, Millar based him on British actors from the 1960s—Peter O’Toole, Oliver Reed, Richard Burton, Richard Harris—who were suave rascals.

“I loved the idea of a superhero having a good time, getting on with girls, drinking whisky, smoking lots of cigarettes,” Millar said.

At the risk of sounding “so pretentious,” Millar jokes, he also pulled from Shakespeare. Indeed, the comics are as much a family saga as a superhero one (and written by the much younger brother of six whose parents died before he was 20). Utopian is a father to his own disappointing children, and a father of sorts to all heroes. He is Lear as much as he is Jupiter, the Roman god of gods. The end of his reign approaches, and various factions have their own appetite for power—such as his self-righteous brother who thinks he should be a leader, or Utopian’s son, born into the family business of being a hero, but who could never live up to his father’s expectations, or his daughter who is more interested in fame than heroism.

He views Jupiter’s Legacy as more thoughtful than Kick-Ass, Kingsman, or Wanted. The plot’s driving action hinges on a debate about the superheroes’ philosophies and moral imperatives. It seeks to address a question Millar asked when he was a kid reading comics.

“Why doesn’t Superman solve the world’s problems?” he recalls thinking. “Why didn’t he interfere and stop wars from even existing?… Is it ethically wrong to stand aside and just maintain the status quo, especially when the status quo creates so many problems for a lot of people?”

On one side of the debate, Utopian believes interfering too much with society’s trajectory is a bad move. It’s not that he is cynical; quite the opposite. He thinks things are actually improving in the world. His viewpoint is there are less people hungry across the globe than ever before, and less people with disease. Millar describes Utopian as a “Truth, Justice, and the American Way” kind of hero, to borrow a phrase associated with Superman, and believes capitalism works. As his hero name suggests, Utopian thinks a better world is within reach, even if it takes generations, and encourages even the heroes to be patient and trust people to do the right thing because they are innately good.

“He says, if you look at the difference somebody like Bill Gates has made in Africa—just one guy—if you look at capitalism taken to the Nth degree, then it pulls everybody up, and poverty in places like India, is massively better just compared to a generation ago.”

Besides, as Utopian says to his impatient brother Walter/Brainwave, in Jupiter’s Legacy #1, being a caped hero doesn’t make them economists and, “Just because you can fly doesn’t mean you know how to balance a budget.” Plus, the notion of using psychic powers or brute force to simply make the world “better” is out of the question. Or is it?

The mainstream awareness of superheroes baked in from more than 80 years of stories, and the shorthand that especially comes with 13 years of the Marvel Cinematic Universe commercial juggernaut, has provided Millar with a set of archetypes to lean into. It was true of the hero proxies in the Jupiter’s Legacy books, and he says it’s true of the show. In fact, he says audiences are so sophisticated with regards to these types of characters they’ll be able to immediately slip into his universe, and that “a lot of the hard work has been done for us.” He adds that audience literacy with superhero tropes also provided him something to push against.

“The Marvel characters lock these guys up in prison at the end of these movies,” Millar says. “Everything’s tied up neatly with a bow, the rich are still the rich, the poor are still starving, and the superheroes aren’t really doing anything for the common man in any very global sense. These guys have just had enough of that.”

Millar’s comics technically kick off in 1932, when Sheldon first brings his friends on a journey to The Island, but his story goes back to 1929 when the stock market crashed, and the Great Depression began. This is likewise when the Netflix series will begin, and Millar says it’s because of the historic parallels between then and 2021.

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“We’ve been in a similar situation as we are now: there’s impending financial collapse coming out of a global pandemic,” he says. “The idea is that history continues and repeats itself, and people make the same mistakes over and over again, and the superheroes are saying, ‘Let’s actually fix everything.’”

Continuing the theme of parallels, when discussing the inception of Jupiter’s Legacy with Millar, The Godfather Part II comes up more than once because of the film’s dual storylines following Vito Corleone and son Michael, separated by decades. However, while the comics contain some flashbacks, the plot doesn’t unfold across different time periods simultaneously. But the Netflix series will shift between eras, with half of the show during the season taking place in 1929, for which Millar credits Steven S. DeKnight, who developed the series.

“The way Steven structured it was really brilliant, because I saw these taking place over two [different] years,” Millar says. “[But] The Godfather Part II track shows you the father and the son at the same age and juxtaposes their two lives.”

As a result, he says the series is a visual mash-up of genres that’s both classical and futuristic.

“It just feels like a beautiful period movie, then when it gets cosmic, and it gets to the superhero stuff, it’s a double wow… it’s like seeing Once Upon a Time in America suddenly directed by Stanley Kubrick doing 2001.”

This is a notable advantage to bringing the story to television, as opposed to making Jupiter’s Legacy three two-hour films as he originally planned with producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura in 2015. Millar says that to tell the Jupiter’s Legacy story properly on screen would require 40 hours, and with a series, what would have been a one-minute flashback in a movie can now be revealed in two hours of its own.

It was another director who has since made a name adapting ambitious comic book properties that extolled to Millar the benefits of television: James Gunn. When Gunn (Guardians of the Galaxy, The Suicide Squad) had a chat with Millar about the project, Gunn said it could never be done as a movie. “The smartest guy in the world is James Gunn,” Millar says.

An exciting challenge of adapting his work for television is that the series will expand on the backstories and concepts of the books. For example when Sheldon Sampson and his friends head to The Island in the first issue, it takes up six pages. Within the series, half of the first season is that journey, and what happens when they arrive.

“Six issues of a graphic novel are roughly about an hour and 10 minutes of a movie; for something like an eight-part drama on TV, you really have to flesh it out,” he says. “It just goes a little deeper than what I had maybe two panels do.”

He emphasizes, however, that these flourishes won’t contradict the comics. Though he sold Millarworld to Netflix, he remains president so he can maintain control of his creations.

Overall the series has made the writer realize the value of television, and while a second season has not yet been confirmed, he’s already thinking about a third and fourth, and how it will dovetail with the upcoming Requiem. The story that began in 1929 continued through 2021, and collected in four volumes, will soon continue far into the future in the concluding two volumes.

“We saw the parents, then we have the present, and then we see their children in the next storyline,” he says. “That storyline goes way off into the future where we discover everything about humanity, superheroes, all these things. It’s a big, grand, high-concept, sci-fi thing beyond that.”

Listening to the jovial Millar discuss the scope of his Jupiter universe, which is imbued with optimism, one might not think this is the same person known for employing graphic violence in his works.

He thinks his films especially are violent yet hopeful, and fun. Kingsman is a rags-to-riches story, and “you feel great at the end of Kick-Ass, even though you’ve seen 200 people knifed in the face.” But he doesn’t consider his writing to fit under the dark-and-gritty label, and he’s not interested in angst, which he finds dull. With Jupiter’s Legacy, the comic and the show, he views the tone as complex but not “overtly dark.”

Additionally, Millar says he thinks society needs hopeful characters such as Captain America, Superman, and yes, The Utopian in 2021—as opposed to an ongoing genre trend of heroes drowning in pathos.

“The Superman-type characters are just now something from a pop culture, societal point of view, we need more than ever,” he says. “The last thing you want is seeing the world as dark, as something that makes you feel bad. Never forget Superman was created just before World War II in the midst of the economic depression by two Jewish kids who were just scraping a living together… I just think it’s so important when things are tough to have a character like that that makes you feel good.”

Even though Utopian suffers for his idealism in the comic, Millar says his ideas are passed on. This is The Utopian’s legacy.

“Ultimately, he wins if you think about it,” ponders Millar.

After a successful career spent creating characters and re-shaping superheroes with 80 years of history, the new pantheon of Jupiter’s Legacy may become one of the defining and lasting features of Mark Millar’s own legacy.

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Jupiter’s Legacy premieres on Netflix on May 7. Read more about the series in our special edition magazine!

The post Jupiter’s Legacy: Mark Millar on the Genesis of His Superhero Story appeared first on Den of Geek.

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