#also sidenote what actually is going on with detective comics comics canon

[pagesofkenna]

i am watching the dead boys show

[maxwell-grant]

Do you think The Shadow could/should have an end ? If yes, how do you think she would be ?

I(Sidenote but "The Scent of Death" is one of my favorite Shadow covers, if only because I am deeply in love with the idea of The Shadow meeting with a Grim Reaper who's just casually offering flowers. It's what I see when I look at it anyway)

Not gonna reply how I think it should be, because that goes into some of my plans for the character I don't feel like letting out, but regarding him having an "end", yes. Actually, if you ask me the number one story I want to tell with the character, after of course just telling general Shadow stories the way I think they should be told and stories about the agents, it's the story of how he dies.

Not how he achieves immortality, not the story of how he dies but lingers as a ghost, but dies for real. No second chances, no hidden plans, no successors (I'm very strongly against the idea of the Agents becoming The Shadow or him having bloodline descendants who take the role), no returning from the grave. He gets to, for once, for real, die, and actually stay dead.

I think part of that is because of something that Alan Moore mentioned in his Twilight of the Superheroes pitch. As horribly misguided as that was, I do think he opens it with a very solid idea:

As I mentioned in my introduction to Frank's Dark Knight, one of the things that prevents superhero stories from ever attaining the status of true modern myths or legends is that they are open ended. An essential quality of a legend is that the events in it are clearly defined in time; Robin Hood is driven to become an outlaw by the injustices of King John and his minions. That is his origin. He meets Little John, Friar Tuck and all the rest and forms the merry men. He wins the tournament in disguise, he falls in love with Maid Marian and thwarts the Sheriff of Nottingham. He lives to see the return of Good King Richard and is finally killed by a woman, firing a last arrow to mark the place where he shall be buried.

That is his resolution—you can apply the same paradigm to King Arthur, Davy Crockett or Sherlock Holmes with equal success. You cannot apply it to most comic book characters because, in order to meet the commercial demands of a continuing series, they can never have a resolution.

Whether (The Dark Knight Returns) will actually ever happen in terms of "real" continuity is irrelevant: by providing a fitting and affective capstone to the Batman legend it makes it just that... a legend rather than an endlessly meandering continuity. It does no damage to the current stories of Batman in the present, and indeed it does the opposite by lending them a certain weight and power by implication and association— every minor shift of attitude in the current Bruce Wayne's approach to life that might be seen in Batman or Detective over the next few years, whether intentionally or not, will provide twinges of excitement for the fans who can perceive their contemporary Batman inching ever closer to the intense and immortal giant of the Dark Knight chronicles.

(Another sidenote is that me and my family cried very, very hard at Spock's death the first time we watched it, even knowing immediately he was gonna come back the next movie. It still hits pretty hard just thinking about it)

You can argue whether or not this is a requirement that holds back characters from becoming "true myth", but there's an undeniable power and status that is to be found in stories about The Death of The Hero. It's not just a cornerstone of storytelling but quite often it can end up becoming the most popular and/or critically-beloved story of a long-running franchise character, who of course doesn't need to actually die forever and gets to have it both ways, truly great characters who stand the test of time can have iconic death scenes. And The Shadow doesn't have one. The only time he's ever even died in a narrative was in Andy Helfer's Shadow run, and everything in that run was mostly played as a farcical joke and his death was only the pretext for his eventual return in a robot body.

In truth, it is pretty difficult to imagine The Shadow ever dying, because sure, we can imagine Superman or Batman dying to save humanity or Spider-Man biting the dust after an ungodly exhertion to save lives. Not that The Shadow wouldn't do those things, but he's the kind of character who seems like he's going to inevitably get back up again, like Jason Voorhees who won't stay down no matter what, who's always going to show up in a last-minute jumpscare or a secret plot. Because The Shadow is strongly associated with horror and supernatural, we tend to assume he's never going to die so much as he's just going to retreat to the darkness to come back when someone least expects it.

It's interesting also that, while The Shadow isn't suicidal, he is also much more willing to throw away his own life for the sake of others than you'd expect from a character of his personality type, even in circumstances where he would save more people in the long run by protecting his own life. The Shadow is unshakeable when it comes to death, of those he chooses to kill as well as his own, and on the few instances where Shadow stories have gone deep in his head enough to showcase fears and anxieties, the fear of death or injury is never among them, it's more consistently a fear of failure or a fear of his own worst nature coming to the forefront (in a way, the only thing he really fears is himself). But when it comes to death?

He's been canonically described as a daredevil who welcomes danger (usually by laughing), and he seems to treasure the idea of dying for the sake of something, of getting to go out while fighting and taking a bigger monster out with him.

SHADOW: Cain, that vault door is six feet thick...and when it's shut this vault is absolutely airtight. Even you can die of suffocation. Sit down, Cain. You and The Shadow will be here a long time...forever.

CAIN: I don't believe you! You wouldn't make this insane sacrifice just to kill me.

SHADOW: The Shadow has spent a lifetime fighting crime. There could be no better death for The Shadow than this. I will take with me the greatest archcriminal of all time - The Immortal Murderer

Looking at it from a general perspective, the fact that every Shadow story that makes him immortal usually exaggerates his worst and most toxic traits. even starts to have some grounding to it. Because these are stories that happen past the point where The Shadow would have been allowed death, the death that every human, every warrior, every hero, must be allowed to have. You know how that "you either die a hero" line goes. Well, what happens when your hero, who's already skirting pretty damn close to villainy as is, isn't allowed to die at all? Worse, isn't even allowed to change with the times?

Not that this justifies those stories or how badly they mangle The Shadow's character (because they always come from the idea that he's always been the sadistic jerk they make him into), and I'm definitely not stating that "immortal Shadow" stories have to revolve around the deterioration of his persona (I'm partial to ghost teacher Shadow myself), but the idea is there.

This is part of why my stance on this question changed from "well, yeah maybe that could be a fun story to tell" to "actually, yes, we need a Death of The Shadow story, and it has to be done very well and done to a version that's written in-character, and I don't currently trust anyone to write this story the way it needs to be told. I don't trust myself to fully deliver on this premise either, but it's a necessary idea that's been long overdue."

So, yes, I definitely think The Shadow could, and should, have an end. I definitely think it's something that should be considered by anyone who wants to write the character.

[dyketectivecomics]

{{ What do you think the limits on the Zatara family's magic are? How much does it drain them? What can they NOT bring into existence (if anything)? How far can they send things? How much does it mess them up? Does it ever take a toll on their minds? (as a sidenote, if you've got canon answers, hook me up!)

Zira you KNOW I’m gonna cite my sources on this one haha! I tried to make this a pretty quick summation, but buckle up because I think it’s still quite a read!

It’s funny because the only member of the Zatara fam who’s had hard and fast limits placed on them? Is Zach.

(From Teen Titans (2003) #42)

Zach has consistently exaggerated his own abilities. It’s been a big part of his character and explains his tendency to overcompensate. He’s not nearly as powerful as Zatara or Zatanna. And he may never be quite that powerful, regardless. He’s shown some promise by being able to manipulate animals, at least. But otherwise? People, including himself (usually mentioned in the form of his lack of teleporting ability), are off limits. Unless he can very creatively work around that limit, it’s quite the drawback to an otherwise overwhelming power.

Zatara, at least at the very beginning, seemed to only have a limit in keeping concentration on his spells~

(All the way from Action Comics (1938) #1 holy throwback batman!)

And the only limit, as far as I’ve been able to tell, was Zatara’s imagination! But I will readily admit to not reading All Of Zatara’s comics just yet because. Older comics are uhhh. Something. Certainly.

So on to the family member I’m Most Familiar with, of course *drum roll*

(This one and these next few are from Black Canary & Zatanna: Bloodspell)

Zee’s been shown to have a penchant for wordless magic just as much as her usual way. There’s no way to know how much this drains her, however, because all writers seem to have their own ideas of What It Takes and How Far they want to push her abilities.

Which is why I always try to defer to Dini, who lets Zee be Fairly OP but usually only when it’s Interesting For The Narrative:

Like here^ where she freezes time to have a conversation with Dinah and ask her father for some advice. The time they have is limited, and doesn’t last any longer than necessary. Rather convenient, of course, but something I think could be worth revisiting with the right writer in place.

Then you have things like this~

This is an EXCELLENT and COMPELLING consequence??? For transforming people without regard for changing them back? *chefs kiss* This is the kinda stuff I want to see more of from DC. When Zatanna performs a spell, especially one that might bring a negative effect to someone, she needs to own up to that.

And in a lot of ways she has. So to go hand in hand with that. Let’s Talk Identity Crisis, Zatanna’s guilt, and along the way, the most obvious drawback to Zatanna’s Powers:

(From Catwoman (2002) #50)

There’s actually a lot more going on here than meets the eye. Because right before being thrown out this window, Zatanna came clean to Selina about messing with her mind to ‘Make Her A Better Person’. To which Selina responded by taking away her ability to speak and well, this. It’s something so simple and something that Zatanna’s encountered many times throughout her history in comics. Some writers let her work around this, through fingerspelling, writing out her spells, or in the most extreme example like the recent JLD issue, having her cut open her own mouth to speak again.

Now, with something like Identity Crisis, at least pre-52, it was something that still ate away at Zatanna and was revisited a few times during her solo series. The toll these actions have on her are moreso psychological & emotional, rather than any physical drain on her.

(And as a side note: as much as I liked the Idea of Identity Crisis, I also think that, ideally, the emphasis would have been placed on the idea that no one, not even a magician, can truly ~*magically*~ change someone. Memories form a lot of our personality traits, but do they completely form our being? Idk maybe that’s more a philosophical question that a mere few issues of comics can’t quite explore regardless. BUT-)

(To bring it all back around, from Zatanna (2010) #2)

This is one of the few times I’ve seen it explicitly mentioned, other than maybe a few times in team books like JLD, that magic is a physical drain on her! And in a way that makes sense! And is consistent!

I cannot overemphasize how much I love Zee’s solo series, simply because Zee is shown very consistently to take punches and still come back fighting!

Even when she’s at the end of her rope, even when she’s pushed to the edge, she’ll come back swinging with everything she has. She faces other magicians that provide genuine threats to her and her city! She spends the entire Witch Hunt issue fighting using her wits and her stagecraft, after having her voice temporarily taken away from her. The Pupaphobia story deals with her trauma and a break in trust she has in magic and with her father! 

She’s shown so often in comics as a force to be reckoned with, but she’s also a person. And just like anyone, she has her limits. I’ve said it before and I will continue to say it; DC as a company and people in fandom continue too often use Zatanna as a Deus Ex Machina but have no regard for what her limits can or should be, and what should be explored with her.

Sure, the physical toll of casting a spell might be hardly anything. But the emotional and psychological toll? Of being able to change reality itself at a whim?

(From Detective Comics #960)

The only writer within recent memory to come close to addressing that again is Tynion. And I am so so so thankful that he’s working on the JLD run now because of that. 

Because while magical heroes can be a tad overpowered. When they’re used in the right context and with the right narrative? It’s the perfect recipe and medium for asking hard questions, and exploring what their answers mean.

[harris-coopers]

Who are your best friends on tumblr and how’d you find them?!

Okay so these are in no particular order or ranking. I love all of these lovely humans and every single person whose ever said so much as Hi to me! (Random anons, ya’ll make my day). Also this got super long so I apologise!! Again i appreciate absolutely everyone I talk to!

@reinhartmendes: Shards was the very first friend I made on tumblr and to be completely honest, I almost lost it when she messaged me for the first time. Here I was thinking ‘omg I am not worthy of this’ because I saw her on my feed all the time and had always been far too nervous to say anything to her! Also she messaged me the day of the MET GALA (8th of May) and honestly that day was the day of blessing so I should have known only amazing things could come from it, and of course apart from well... THAT the other equally as amazing thing was my friendship with Shards. She’s stunningly talented at everything she does and I am super grateful to have her!

@forsythpendleton: Okay so the first time Sarah and I ever talked was because she had sent me an ask squealing over the fact that I was from Melbourne like her and that we liked all the same things. Half the message was in caps lock and thats when I knew, that were were destined to be good friends. Also one of the first things I ever said was invite her to a comic con viewing party and she didn’t run away so that was a pretty good sign. Honestly, I flood her messages with ramblings in all caps about SH on the daily and I swear sometimes she’s probably comes home to like a gazillion and one of them, she never cares though and sometimes she joins in, which makes me feel a LOT less crazy than I do. Also she super nice?? And caring?? and her photography skills?? Sprouse worthy. 

@emmalrb: So I can’t actually remember 100% which post it was but I messaged Emma because I knew she was Australian and basically just wanted to make some more friends on here and honestly you get 100 friends in one when you’re friends with Emma. We bonded over where we live and then shortly after over the fact that KJ was coming to Melbourne and we both were super stocked for it and also that we have basically almost the same job?? (working with kids/teachers). Also I went to comic con by myself this year (which was amazing, both the con and being alone) and I was messaging her updates throughout the day and honestly, she was so invested that she may as well have been there with me! ALSO She will randomly message me and tell me to have a great day?? Like go get yourself an Emma if you don’t already have one bc she’s amazing and her messages are the sweetest! Also she’s a super detective?? If I EVER need help with anything SH related she always knows the answer or can find a link (seriously you’re the best) And she’s also helped me lot with the Sprousehart timeline, along with everyone else in SSH which has literally been super helpeful!!?!. Love you lots!!

@jugheaddjones: Amber, my Brisbane buddy! Our conversation first started because she had messaged me and then straight after that, I messaged her with a gif and asked if she knew where it was from (sidenote: she did and I had been looking for that for SO long) We then realised that we were both from Brisbane (which if you know nothing about Australia, Brisbane isn’t the hottest city to visit). AND THEN  she freaked me out by joking around about if we knew each other in real life!! ( seriously my life flashed before my eyes bc LORD I would have passed out cold) anyways turns out we didn’t and that we both had a secret riverdale life (her words A+++ btw Amber) THEN  we both died over the fact that KJ was coming to Melbourne ( and then I cried a little bc I knew SH wouldn’t be) and basically I too, also spam her inbox with random Sprousehart info or moments. Also we both almost died on may 31st (Met Gala selfie anyone??) so if that didn’t bond us idk what would. Anyways, Amber your an A+ human being and an even better friend ily. 

@itsnotoktohit: I first spoke to Shirin about a gifset I had made, where one of the gifs was broken and I messaged a few people to see if they could delete the broken set while I fixed it. Anyways, long story short, we ended up talking for a really long time about absolute nonsense (honestly a lot of our convos, except for SH related ones bc #facts) Shirin is literally one of the best motivators ever, she is constantly happy and appreciative of literally everything. Half the time I complain to her about things and just basically spurt a whole bunch of 1st world problems stories out and she never cares?? Also she nicknamed me google in the group chat and even tho I don’t think I deserve it, it was still a pretty great confidence booster honestly. Also her love and enthusiasm for SH and all things RD is absolutely amazing and I will cherish it and her forever. 

@bugheadlover101: Peyton, Peyton, Peyton, where do I even start? So the first contact we ever had was of her sending me a post about Cole wearing Lili’s sweater and honestly?? That’s the way to my heart fam. We’ve basically been messaging about RD and SH ever since. She’s somewhat new to the fandom but honestly that’s never stopped her. She’s fits in absolutely perfectly!! We had bonded quite quickly over our love of Sprousehart and it went from there! Peyton is always willing to dig up any old/new sh info to share even just really randomly it’ll pop up in your inbox and you’re just like ‘I came out here to have a good time and honestly I’m feeling so attacked right now’ bc it hits you in the feels and takes you a while to recover. I love her to bits, please never change.

@betty-cooper: Okay so Katie! The first proper interaction I remember having with Katie was actually a tumblr post. I had posted something along the lines of ‘Cole Sprouse, the one person physically unable to look unattractive’ and then Katie (of course) replied or reblogged it and said ‘I present to you Lili Reinhart’. I then amended my post bc ya’ll a girl can’t argue with that truth. The next interaction we had was actually me asking her for a link to the bughead discord. I saw her on my dash all the time and she seemed super lovely and nice so I figured she’d be a good person to approach about it (she was!!) She then helped me with sorting all of that craziness out (turns out I suck at firguring that site out lmao) and basically she’s just been a positive light that guides me ever since. If you didn’t already know, Katie is one of the most considerate, caring and generous people on the planet. She is always willing to help me with a photoshop question or answer ( hello?? GIF QUEEN right here). Also her writing is amazing too?? What can’t she do?? ANSWER: Nothing, she is perfect. Also we bonded over the fact that Lili in Law and Order is absolute golden acting and all the other movies of hers that are less well known. Also Katie, I quite possibly the nicest human being you will ever meet. She is always positive and happy and I really appreciate that. She always pops into my inbox when I least expect it and honestly that’s amazing because she always ends up reaching out before I even realise I need someone to talk to. Katie, you’re fantastic and an absolute gem of a person, ily.

@ccshbh: Nina! First off the first interaction I ever had with Nina was based off a comment that she had left on one of my fanfics. And honestly at that time I about died bc Nina is pure royalty in this fandom and I was pretty stunned that she had liked something of mine (nevermind when she followed me. I nearly passed out that day) The next few interactions were me asking if she knew of something or could help me with finding a fic (sidenote: It was the fic where Cole tries to sneak out of Lili and Madelaine’s shared apartment, which is by far one of the best fics to grace the planet also that fic is pure canon don’t @me) Also literally allll of her fics are amazing and you should definitely read them.  Also her “Idiot...oh, but my idiot” tag on a gifset I made, basically made my day and stemmed a whole other gifset too. Also she is literally the most inclusive person in the entire world and my tumblr life got like 1000x better when you added me to the group chat! Bc I felt like I had friends on here!! Nina is basically a walking bible when it comes to anything and she always knows what she’s talking about! She’s also a super caring friend and is constantly checking in with me when I get bad anons or whatever and I really appreciate it!! She’s super lovely and really approachable and and just an all round great person!! Thanks for everything lovely!!