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rey-jake-therapist · 1 year ago

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Hob Gadling's wives and girlfriends, the forgotten women of The Sandman

DISCLAIMER: the following posts contains major spoilers for Season of Mists, World's Ends, The Kindly Ones and The Wake.

A couple of weeks I told @writing-for-life my next meta would be about the women who shared Hob's life. There's not much to work on in the comics for most of them, but the fact remains that they exist and that Hob probably loved them all. And his second wife in particular, Margaret/Peggy aka Jim, had a story dedicated to her journey, in World's Ends.

Hob's canon romances always interested me because these women were all mortals, while he was not. We know he had at least one kid who died, and he saw almost all his lovers/wives die while knowing he would never follow them in the grave unless he wanted it. We didn't see it happen with Gwen, but it will, eventually.

It makes me wonder: how does he do it? How does he manage to be completely invested in a relationship knowing that the people he loves will all grow old and die, while he will stay the same and live forever? I would have loved it if the comics had him discussing that, and I still hope in the show he will. We never saw what his last conversation with Hob was, after all... I like to think that Dream stayed a bit longer than usual with Hob, and that they opened up about their respective lives and experiences with love. Audrey is still alive and probably in Hob's life at this point, it would be nice if she showed up, met Dreams and asked him embarrassing questions... but I digress haha

Before I continue I'd like to confess that not being a shipper, I don't read Dreamling fics - I rarely read fics revolving a ship in general... I prefer Morpheus x oc or non romantic fics -, so any comment I can make about the fandom is based on what I see on social media, and not on fanfic contents. I'm sure that Hob's wives and girlfriends are often evoked and maybe sometimes, even more developed there than they are in canon.

Hob's first wife: Eleanor

Eleanor's just a portrait, we don't know much about her except that Hob probably cared about her since in the show he still calls her "my Eleanor" long after she died.

She exists only to show that Hob's situation stabilized after he started making money. Also, their son's death and hers may have been the first time that it hit Hob in the head that while he could live forever, he couldn't prevent his loved ones from dying. The loss of his family affected him very much and yet, he still wanted to live. I'll probably write a meta later about how his situation purposely mirrors Morpheus', about how they both lost everything they loved at some point but reacted in a completely different manner.

Hob's second wife: Peggy/Jim

We meet Margaret/Peggy/Jim in World's End. She pretends to be a man hence why she calls herself Jim, as she did during all the trip during which she met Hob Gadling. It's quite obvious that she did it for safety issues, as she would have probably not been allowed to travel on a boat let alone work on one if she had revealed as girl without a chaperon, and she clearly enjoyed the freedom and advantages she got as passing for a man. It's good to emphasize how brave she was to do that, as if her secret had gone out it could have put her in great danger.

Hob was the only one who saw through her, but he protected her secret. He also confirmed her doubts that he was much older than he seemed, a secret she protected as well. It seems she never believed he was immortal though - see the part about Audrey - .They bonded over having secrets they could possibly not reveal to anyone else, so it's a really sweet love story.

Later, in The Kindly Ones, we learn that Peggy died in his arms, during the Blitz. If they had kids, he doesn't say, but it's obvious he loved her very much and was deeply affected by her death, as he says on Audrey's grave, in The Kindly Ones, that Audrey's the first woman he was with since Peggy died.

Now I know that certain fans want Peggy to be trans or non-binary because she disguises as a man and asks to be called Jim. It's generally not as much because they care about her character or representation,than because it would make Hob canonically queer. Now I have no problem with anyone's headcanons: there are no right or wrong headcanon, no stupid or offensive ones - as long as they're not hateful, homophobic, racist, transphobic etc. - and whatever makes people feel represented and happy is fine by me. That said, I personally believe it's a bit simplistic to reduce a woman's refusal to follow societal norms to her being a man or non-binary, but again, whatever floats your boat guys.

I personally think that Peggy/Jim was written as a strong young woman who wanted to travel and see the world, knew she couldn't do that if she was seen as a woman, so she disguised as a man, took a man's name and enjoyed the role because let's be honest: the life for white men during this period was wayyyyyy funnier and easier than for women. What do you mean, it still is? I don't understand, are you saying institutional patriarchy is still very much a thing? *pretends to be shocked*.

You can find many stories like Peggy/Jim's in modern literature, and of course, in real life!

As for Hob, he knew Peggy was a woman quite early, and when he talks about her on Audrey's grave he says "Peg' ", not "Jim", which tells me he kept seeing her as a woman. But again, that's my headcanon and I won't argue about that, I just feel like Peggy/Jim deserves better than being discussed solely regarding Hob's sexuality. Her story is one of my favorite in the comics :)

Talking about the particular subject of Hob's sexuality is immortal and even though the comics doesn't mention any male boyfriend, he seems open minded and hedonistic enough to have at least tried... I always headcanoned Hob Gadling as pansexual, because it doesn't make sense to me that a man who lived for hundred of years would be straight, simply.

I really hope that the show will give us Peggy/Jim's story on screen, she highly deserves it. I love this character, I just wish it would be clearer in the comics that she's the future Mrs Gadling... I learned through social media that the Peg' he mentioned on Audrey's grave was the Peggy he met in World's Ends. It's very confusing, the way it's written.

Hob Gadling's girlfriends

We of course don't know every girlfriend that Hob had, in the comics we're just introduced to two: Audrey, and Gwen. We learn a couple of other names in The Kindly Ones though: Lisabet and Anne.

Audrey

Audrey's another woman who's never part of the conversations, yet the panel dedicated to Hob's reaction to her death is the first panel that made Hob sympathetic to me. But whenever this panel is discussed, everything that's related to Audrey is ignored so the focus is entirely on Hob's concern for Morpheus. Before I read the comics, I had no idea that Hob had just buried his lover, and begged Morpheus to resurrect her because the pain of losing her was too hard to handle.

A bit like for Margaret/Peggy/Jim, it's not clear at all that in Season of Mists, the woman we see with Hob in bed is Audrey, the woman whose grave he visits in The Kindly Ones.

It's really in The Kindly Ones that we can see how much he cared for Audrey, as he cared for all the lovers he had before but died. The reaction he has, he admits it himself, responds to a question we probably all asked: does he ever get used to it? Become insensitive, with time?

The answer's no:

I always wondered why Morpheus visited him at this moment: was it because he felt his pain and wanted to be here for him? Or was it because he wanted to say one last goodbye and it happened to coincide with the moment Hob was drowning in his grief? Was it because he himself needed a friend, more than ever?

Anyway he certainly didn't expect Hob's request. For the first time that we know of, Hob asked Dream to use his supernatural powers. Hob, the immortal who saw all the people he knew die, not only wasn't used to it but asked Dream basically the same thing as Orpheus asked him: help him to get his lover back. It must have been very painful for Dream, but poor Hob couldn't know that. I doubt he even knew that Dream had once been married and had a son.

So yeah, afterwards he runs after Morpheus and tries to make him confide in him, he even feels his friend's death is imminent and he shows a deep concern, but that's not all that this panel is about. I think it's about saying that no matter how old you are, how many lives you lived, how many people you loved and loved you.... The death of a loved one is always painful.

2. Gwen

Gwen is Hob's last girlfriend that we know of. She's also, in his own admission, the first Black woman he dates. Considering that Hob used to be an enthusiastic slave trader who needed an ethereal entity to tell him that slavery was wrong to think that he should find another way to become rich, I find this information.... interesting. After 600 years, it was about time... did he refuse to date Black women because of guilt for what he did? Or because he remained racist for a long time and didn't think Black women were worth his attention?

I feel very protective of Gwen, first because I dislike how she was written as a moral caution for Hob, as she absolves him for his sins but without knowing the extent of his sins - she has no idea he's immortal and was a slave trader - . When she appears in the show - and I really hope she will! - , I hope she'll be written in a way that she doesn't exist solely for Hob to express his guilt while being too coward to tell her the truth about what he did.

I was going to say something very personal about me, but I'm not sure the comparison I want to make would work, so I prefer keeping it for me, finally. If anyone's interested in knowing me better they can join me in private though :)

The second reason why I'm very protective of her is that as Audrey, on social media she's generally treated as non existent by the fandom - who focuses entirely on Hob's grief regarding Morpheus' death - . I recently saw a wish regarding Gwen that made my blood boil and almost made me hit the 'deactivate' button, but I'm not here to start a war, let alone to point fingers. I just really wish some people paid more attention to what they wrote, because some stuff I've read these last days came off as very insensitive.

And I'll conclude with one last panel featuring the gorgeous Gwen:

Also tagging @violetoftheendless and @tickldpnk8 , in case you're interested in discussing this subject :)

#sandman women #hob gadling #hob gadling's lovers #hob and women #the sandman #season of mists #the kindly ones #the wake #sandman comics #sandman spoilers #the sandman meta #fandom misoginy #fandom racism #fandom critical

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moorishflower · 1 year ago

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Hi! Hope you're doing well! I just wanted to say that I adore all of your Dreamling fics; you are hands down my favorite author in this fandom. I especially love Beautiful, Strange and New and I wondered if you have plans to continue the series. In the last couple of updates Daniel keeps mentioning that he wants to take Hob and Morpheus to the Dreaming and have both of them in him at once, and, well...I want that for him too. I just think he deserves to be the cream filling (and get that cream filling) in the oreo sandwich.

Oh gosh anon that is HIGH high praise, there are so many incredibly talented writers in this fandom that I actively STRIVE to emulate. When I started writing again being anyone's favorite literally never crossed my mind as a possibility <3 Still baffles me! But also, is an incredible feeling, and an honor!

And yeah, I would like to write a third part to the BSN followups from, Hob's POV! I just gotta be in the right mindset for super trippy Dreaming sex lol! But that is the plan, as soon as my brain says yes to it!

#ask response

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avelera · 2 years ago

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may I ask if in your 1589 fic, despite all the messed-upness of it and the hate sex and the consent issues, if there is some underlying love/care for the other (not necessarily at the beginning! but maybe as they keep seeing each other?). I only ask because I really really care about dreamling and while I love the more hardcore kinky stuff I can't really stomach it if there's no caring for one another at all at least buried deep somewhere in there with a pairing I care about so much.

It's totally okay if you don't wanna say/it's spoilers, I'll deal ^_^

So at the risk of spoilers, I will say short answer: yes, there is genuine care and love for one another (eventually on Dream's part but from the beginning on Hob's part) in this fic. It's not just vicious hate fucking and indeed, there'll even be some moments of angst and pathos mixed in around this point.

Long answer below the cut:

This fic has at its root a few deeper emotions beyond kink and hate fucking which emerged while I've been writing it.

From Dream's POV, it's not just that he hates Hob for being a vulgar materialist, it's that he hates that 1489 Hob who saw such wonder in the world and who had picked up a trade in printing books had pivoted to being a vulgar materialist. This genuinely hurt Dream's feelings for reasons he does not dare name, like his burgeoning crush on Hob. He wouldn't be this angry with Hob if he didn't deep down care that Hob disappointed him this much with his choices.

There's also a running thread of Dream not really believing anyone can actually stomach him if they knew him. He's got trauma from Nada, Killalla, Calliope, and Alianora sloshing around in his head in this fic and we're going to address all of it through the challenges he throws at Hob. Because really, deep down, this competition quickly becomes Dream trying to prove that if Hob really knew him, darkness and all, he'd never actually want to be with Dream. Hob surviving and indeed seeming to enjoy inexplicably all these challenges begins, slowly, to give Dream the barest hint of hope that maybe he underestimated Hob in truth and, maybe, Hob really is someone who can withstand even the worst parts of Dream.

For his part, Hob's pathos comes from the fact he's actually quite scared of getting married and/or falling in love again only to have lovers die on him over and over. Yes, his reasons for proposing are a bit selfish on this front, but he is sincere in his desire to share the fruits of his labors this past century with Dream specifically, since he sees Dream as his patron, muse, and inspiration. And if Dream accepts, then Hob never needs to worry about getting his heart broken again. Dream takes a dim view of this, thinking Hob's motives are entirely selfish, but over time we see how Hob really does care about Dream, darkness, sadism, bitchiness, and all. He really is, genuinely, into all the weird kink stuff Dream throws at him becaue Dream paying attention to him is his real kink, deep down, and this is what Dream can't possibly fathom. That anyone, much less Hob, would want Dream so badly that it doesn't matter what he does, they just want to spend time with him is incomprehensible to Dream (and, arguably, exactly what he needs: a partner as crazy and obsessed as he is).

This is MOSTLY a smutty comedy so I'm not going to say to expect "Giving Sanctuary" levels of pathos, but I will say that lurking beneath the surface of this story is how two genuinely awful people fucked each other to the point of becoming slightly better people, found out that they're kink-compatible, and fall in love despite Dream's best efforts. Because that's hilarious to me.

#1589 fic

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danikatze · 9 months ago

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Shipper Tag Game

Tagged by @tj-dragonblade! I'm not sure if (m)any of these answers will be interesting at all, because apparently I have a bad memory for ships apart from the ones I made fanart of myself, and I haven't read a lot of fanfic for a long long time.. But I've attempted answering these questions anyway!

What ship were you completely obsessed with as a teenager, but now you don’t care about anymore?

I didn't ship much as a teen. I liked the Marauders gang from HP a lot as a kid, tho, likely even in a shippy way. Obviously HP has left a really bad taste my mouth.

Which ship would you consider your first one?

It was probably a HP one, I was properly obsessed with Sirius, James and Remus for a long time, but like I said, I have a hard time telling when I started consciously shipping characters.

Your first fanfic was about which couple?

Hinata and Naruto and it was baaad. I guess it was maaaybe kind of cute, but it was not good.

Do you remember the first couple you saw fan art of?

Not at all. The most likely options are anyone from HP, Death Note, or InuYasha, but it hasn't stuck with me.

Have you ever gotten into ship discourse?

Nah, the closest I've gotten was the time I got put on a blacklist (or two?) for a shipping Yamato and Sai. I didn't care and so didn't address it, until someone sent me a (kind) message about it. I then explained my feelings about the problematic aspect and the (few) responses I got were 100% positive.

Did you used to have a NOTP or have one currently?

There are plenty of ships I don't particularly like, but I wouldn't call them NOTP's. Except maybe the very very popular ones. I only take real issue with ships that become canon, like a fair few Naruto pairs..

Who were the last couple in the last fanfic you read?

Reading has been hard the last couple of years, so I haven't done much of it.. But it has to have been a Dreamling fic - I'm so excited you've been writing again, TJ 💖

Currently, do you have any OTPs?

MatsuMasa, although they're not my otp in the literal sense. I like them both with Yaichi, and Matsu (non-romantically) with Ume - and the fun thing is that it works all at the same time 😎

Is there any couple that, to this day, you are extremely mad about not getting into?

Hmm well I'm kinda mad at not being as into Dreamling as you are, TJ. I like Sandman and Dreamling! Very much looking forward to the second season and I enjoy the things you blog about, but it's never been more than a general appreciation. And that's fine, ofc, but it's always been such a joy to be excited by the same things as you haha

Is there any ship you used to dislike but now you think they’re kind of interesting?

Maybe KakaGai? Only I didn't dislike it, just didn't consider it. And I don't think it's kind of interesting, I deeply love it.

Do you have any ship that, in the past, would have been considered normal but now you would be cancelled over?

I already mentioned YamaSai, but there's also ShisuItachi. Some people say that the latter is incest. It's been too long and I don't remember their specific relationship, but afaik they're not (direct) family, just from the same clan. Can't get too bothered about family trees in fiction.

Kikyo and Kagome from InuYasha is by some considered gross as well, comparable to incest, because Kagome is Kikyo's reincarnation?

Idk, is FjorClay problematic, because Caduceus is canonically aroace? I feel like it's not a super popular ship anyways, but I still like them a lot. In a queer platonic way.

What is your favourite crack ship?

I don't think I have one. Although I wonder if JonGerry from the Magnus Archives could be considered crack ship? They aren't from different fandoms, but they only met once after Gerry had already died. And then at Gerry's request, Jon sort of killed him again. It doesn't really count as a crack ship, but this is my answer anyway

What is the couple you read the most fanfics about?

Hm, I don't know! The last time I really obsessively read them was in my Naruto era.. So who knows - KakaGai is a very plausible answer.

What do most of your ships have in common?

I guess I most commonly like pairings with a Gentle Giant™ (preferably kind of dumb) and someone grumpy and/or cynical and smart and/or skilful. MatsuMasa, BeauYasha and ShikaChou come to mind.

What do you absolutely hate in a ship?

Hard to explain. Wrong vibes lol. Look I can appreciate love-hate or even hate-hate relationships as much as the next shipper, but there needs to be at least some level of respect/consent/two-way-street? I still dislike SasuSaku, because they very much have none of that from what I remember. They've always been close to a NOTP and then they became canon so..

#long post #tag meme #tag game

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