#also i'd like to think that jon as a full avatar is also like this lakshdajhdkldj

[fox-guardian]

vampire that can still eat and enjoy human food but it doesn't sustain them and it also gives them the shits beyond belief

[annabelle--cane]

okay here's a tma thing that's been bugging me for like three years: I've seen a bunch of people say that jon needed to extract statements in order to live, and thus the others making him stop was equivalent to forcing him to starve to death, so I'd like to say that that isn't actually canon. that idea seems to come from this bit of mag 152:

and he explicitly says that he isn't certain, it just feels that way, and I don't believe we ever actually see an avatar die from starving their patron; we can presume that the alexandrian archivist from mag 53 hadn't fed in nearly two millennia, and it was still alive. this also comes during a short series of episodes where, having accepted that he isn't being puppeted into taking statements, it seems like a part of jon is on-and-off-again trying to come up with other reasons why he actually has to do it (he'll die otherwise, he has to be strong enough to protect the others, it must be harder on him to resist his patron than daisy and melanie with theirs, etc), so I think that colors the way he talks about it. not that I think he's lying or anything, I just think he's subconsciously magnifying any pieces of information that would make him feel better about taking statements again. I don't begrudge him that, because a) like, duh, of course that's his mindset, wouldn't it be yours? and b) he doesn't actually fall off the proverbial wagon at any point, he just thinks himself in miserable circles and feels Bad. but still, I don't think it's a full and accurate assessment.

anyway, the situation we're presented with here is more complex than "it's like making a lion stop eating gazelles," because jon neither kills his victims nor is he in actual immanent danger of death if he doesn't "feed," the real question is of extended pain and suffering. jess tyrell only tells martin about her experience two weeks after it happens, so she may well improve with more time, but as she tells it, jon not only attacked her in public and made her feel perpetually unsafe and paranoid, but he also undid five years of recovery from a traumatic event, making her viscerally re-live it every night so the terror and trauma is always fresh. jon may not die from only reading old statements, but his quality of life nosedives, he gets weak and tired and irritable with no way to ever make it let up, an even more significant problem for him than most people because of the frequency with which superpowered monsters try to kill him and everyone he cares about, and it appears to get gradually worse over time with no plateau. like, I'm not pointing this out to say "jon was complaining about nothing and basira was right to threaten to kill him," his situation was plenty bad as-is and I 100% sympathize with his whole deal, but I think saying "he needed to or he'd die" flattens the conflict and makes it overly neat and digestible.

[an-aura-about-you]

you ever have a fanfic you know you're not gonna write but the ideas keep bouncing around in your head so you gotta do an infodump somewhere?

that's what we're doing today so here we go: TMA fic I'll never write in which Somewhere Else is Lunar (during the events of Lunar 2)

(or "gee Leo, how come you get to hunt down two destroyers?")

-ngl I've been thinking about this ever since I started reading clutching a map of dreams, which is a fantastic Final Fantasy X fusion au and y'all should go read it even if you don't know a thing about ffx because the characterization and action is superb

-I likewise have some cherished RPGs from my youth and one in particular clicks with this like no other

-I'd start it out some time before canon gets going, but not too far out. just far enough that we've got a little bit of time for the boys to acclimate to the world they've found themselves in before the action starts.

-start with Jon, who wakes up and is surprised to do so. holy shit, he made it! they made it! wait where's Martin? wait is he in some kind of carriage?

-turns out Jon was found by the caravan that sets up the carnival in the Madoria Plains. This Causes Some Concern, at least until he realizes he's not restrained in any way and nobody's setting off Stranger Vibes.

-also Jon feels???? way better than he probably should have considering he just got stabbed???? and that's how he learns that magic (aka RPG mechanics) are in play

-(debating on whether he grows his ribs back or not. I'm inclined to say they did just because That Shit's Funny.)

-first big hurdle actually comes from learning Lunar is Lunar and not Earth. first time he goes outside and sees the Blue Star he nearly has a breakdown then and there. (that is the Earth that is the Earth in the sky I am looking at the Earth which means I'm NOT on Earth what the fuck what the fuck what the fuck)

-eventually he does manage to adjust and make friends with the musicians. operating on The Mechanisms were Jon's Band in Uni rules, he's able to contribute that way.

-he and Jean become sibling-like friends. (she's like, "Hey, I'm not the newest member anymore!") neither learns the full scope of the other's past until considerably later, though. (Once they do, they're like, "Hey, both of us were orphans that found our family later!")

-he discovers that he's retained some of his powers as an avatar of Beholding but under Lunar's magic system rules, as well as develop some new abilities such as making himself invisible. he's relieved that he has more control over whether he compels information out of others.

-(he's not entirely sure how he feels about Althena, but he would rather choose her over the Ceaseless Watcher as far as sources of power go.)

-so Jon's there with the caravan when our intrepid party of heroes show up having adjusted as well as one can over the course of, say, a few months.

-holy shit Lucia has the Lonely coming off of her in waves. Jon is seriously concerned that she might become a catalyst for some Forsaken ritual.

-Jon finds that baby dragons are utterly adorable and is grateful that he's not prone to baby-talk around cats and things that look like cats, thus earning Ruby's respect.

-after Jean leaves with the party, Jon decides to take his leave on his own, now confident enough in his abilities on Lunar to try to find Martin.

-except when everyone goes to town, they find some wanted posters. one for Lucia and her party, and one for Jon.

-"wtf why is Leo calling Jon a destroyer????" vs "how tf did he know I'm a destroyer?????"

-Jon gets captured by Leo and jailed in the Dragonship Destiny a couple of times as well as an attempt at Lemina's Magic Mansion and an encounter with Ghaleon, the last of these setting off all kinds of alarm bells because Ghaleon Very Much Should Be Dead. ("Is he connected to Terminus?")

-the last time Jon's captured by Leo, he breaks out of his cell and tries to escape at Azado, but That Doesn't Work Out What With The City Being On Fire. (fuck this reeks of Desolation)

-but also oh hey Jean, Lemina, and Lucia are tied up on the deck of the Dragonship Destiny what's up guys? oh cool, Leo went with Hiro, Ronfar, and Ruby to take care of the fire, that will give us time to escape.

-This doesn't get very far because it's not long after that when Mauri shows up for her confrontation. Then Leo and the rest of the party join in. AND THEY HAVE MARTIN WITH THEM!

-Jon is ecstatic! Whatever fight they have with Obvious Desolation Avatar Mauri, they can manage it now that he's found Martin! Except that Martin seems to know Leo? AND Mauri???? And HE was the one who told Althena's Guard that Jon is a destroyer???????

-Jon's got a lot to think about on the way to Pentagulia.

-But also they've got some time on a boat so it's time for stories to come out. (including Ronfar and Jon both being puzzled about how their SOs know each other and other members of the party thinking they have to explain homosexuality to Lucia but she's just confused about why they're bothering to explain this when no one's thought to explain heterosexuality to her.)

-this also means Jon's finally up to speed with what the player would know at this point: entity called Zophar trying to destroy Lunar, Lucia's here to stop him, the campaign Zophar engineered against Lucia, what's the deal with Althena's Chosen (with the additional sting of them informing Jon that Martin was wearing the garb of one of their priests)

-at some point there's a talk between Jon and Lucia and he ends up understanding what's at stake far better than Lucia anticipated he would. it's a nice little friendship moment.

-They arrive at Pentagulia and it's time to split up the party for everyone to make their appointments with their plot threads, which means Jon's semi-tagging along with Ronfar as they go to the Red Tower to confront Martin and Mauri respectively. It goes about as well as people who know the game expect it to, with Martin speaking to Jon as if everything is normal, that this is the way things have always been for them, and that nothing has changed between them. (but there was one moment with a break when Jon, as a last resort, compels Martin to tell him what's happening. In lieu of any actual answers, Martin gives him a horrified look and begs him to leave while he still can.)

-once that plot matter is wrapped up in the canon way (with Jon being courteous enough to not comment on how Mystere is obviously Leo), it's time to regroup and try a different approach. in this time, Jon receives a letter from Martin.

-let's back up to before the story begins one more time

-Martin wakes up in Raculi. only the problem is he was already up and moving when he comes to.

-turns out he was found by the Chosen and cleansed (that is, made to drink Zophar's blood) before he came to. and now he's working as an assistant to Lady Mauri

-he wakes up in time to hear himself tell Mauri about Jon and how he's already destroyed one world, fighting to stop himself but physically unable to.

-from this point on, Martin's been a prisoner in his own body, watching as he helps Mauri "cleanse" the sinful with fire and blood, struggling to get his body back under his own control. but it's no use. he's a vessel for Zophar.

-he writes down as much of this as he can in the letter to Jon in the brief moments he can actually control his hands, finishing it by telling Jon that he's sorry, he loves him, but should they meet again Jon should mercy kill him because otherwise he might not be able to stop his body from killing Jon.

-(the reason Martin's able to write and send it at all is because Zophar delights in that kind of torment)

-there would also be a scene with Jon discussing these things with Leo, who is more certain about taking fatal action if need be, and through compulsion Leo admits he is terrified at the idea of striking down Mauri because, even though they aren't as close as they were and she's done horrible things, she's still his sister and he still loves her.

-Jon goes to Raculi with Leo because Leo was ready to kill both Mauri and Martin, and Jon isn't sure if he can actually go through with it but tells Leo that if Martin must die then Jon should honor Martin's implied wish that it be by his hand.

-in a one-on-one fight that proves challenging since Martin is armed with a flail, Jon ends up non-fatally incapacitating Martin while the party fights Mauri's Id. by the time the fight is over, the effects of Zophar's blood wear off and Martin is back in control of himself. cue proper tearful reunion.

-with Mauri also free from the influence of Zophar's blood, she apologizes to Martin for what she did to him. having been in the same situation, Martin understands and forgives her.

-the three of them, Jon, Martin, and Mauri, all stay in Raculi as the party moves on to mount their attack against Zophar. when Zophar starts getting the upper hand, Jon is reasonably concerned it will become another Fear Apocalypse because everything about what he's told indicates that Zophar and the Fears are one and the same.

-in a fit of impulsiveness, Jon proposes to Martin in this time. ("I've already seen one apocalypse with you! I don't want to go through another with the regret of leaving that undone!") Mauri finds a couple of old bracelets of hers to stand in as wedding bands and marries them then and there.

-when the world is inevitably saved with the power of humanity, Jon and Martin get a nice little house in Dalton so they can be close to both where the carnival likes to set up and Raculi where Mauri and Ronfar live. (also there's a hot spring nearby, which, yeah, when you hit the age Jon and Martin are, you want to live by something like that)

-they go out on the occasional adventure, a much more peaceful prospect now that they no longer have the threat of Zophar or the Fears looming over them.

-Jon eventually brings Martin to meet everyone in the carnival, who properly give Jon shit for running off and getting married without telling them and tell Martin about all the pining Jon did for him.

-when they catch wind of Hiro wanting to go to the Blue Star to reunite with Lucia, they're like, "That's crazy but in good conscience we should encourage you because she's Lonely AF and her being the only person on the Blue Star isn't helping with that."

-and they all live happily ever after the end!

[a-mag-a-day]

MAG 46 - apple cutting

"His name was Michael Crew, though he normally went by Mike" - Was there already a confusion in the fandom back then that Crew already got a nickname to make him distinguishable from Michael Distortion?

"Gottfried Leibniz" - I not E, Jonny! "Ei" in German is pronounced like the letter I. You're thinking of "ie" (like in "Gottfried"), that would sound like the letter E. You can do it in Leitner, why are the other names with "ei" a problem? xD (There was also one in MAG 23).

5:11 "He was able to pay five figures for a copy of a 1559 printing", rustling in the background at "for a"?

Ha, the Malleus Maleficarum… I spend a lot of time hunting down scans of the book only then to realize I mixed up the names of the books I needed (I was actually looking for the Compendium Maleficarum, oops XD)

After "the lightbulbs in my shop would burn brighter" a high-pitched whistling sound in the background starts and it slowly fades out again at "It was February when I got the Leitner book."

"Well, in January of this year, she passed away. Lost balance on the stairs and broke her neck." - Hm, lost balance… Did she experience vertigo perhaps?^^

Wow, during the whole segment of describing the tale of the Ex Altiora you can hear static!

Static again during the period of describing the woodcuts.

"I had bad dreams, as well. I don’t recall them with any clarity, but I’m rather sure they were dreams of falling." - The shitty small sibling of the Ex Altiora is responsible for dreaming of missing a step when almost asleep and therefore startling awake.

High-pitched whistling starts again at "The bulbs crackled and brightened" and stops again at "he was out into the rainy February afternoon."

"but I could make out the words “altiora,” “vertigo,” and “the vast.”" - This is the first time we explicitly hear the name of an entity as in Smirke's 14, right? Prentiss spoke of them too, but she didn't know about them exactly. She said "Webs have a song as well", not "The Web has a song as well". And Gerry used alternative names in MAG 12, Beholding and the Lightless Flame, but not the popular "The Something-Something" way Smirke described them.

At "and in front of him was a strange, branching figure." the whistling starts again with a descending tone while Mike was falling and all stops at "and I was alone in the dark." I don't know if I ever noticed this in any of my listens…

"with a cry of “I am yours,” he leapt through the open window, and – presumably – to his death." - The birth of a full-fledged Avatar right there.

19:56 "comparing his statement to that of Dominic Swain in 0132806", right after 6 thump again^^

"The book which Mr. Knox received did not seem to have a woodcut of the dark night sky, with the branching, arching design of the Lichtenberg figure." - Mike trapped the Spiral lightning monster in the book, right? It took me so long, to get this… I think this arc in general was quite confusing as to what belonged to the Vast and what to the Spiral since I still see a lot of depictions of lighting in artworks of the Vast. Then again, lightning is part of the sky and the sky is a typical domain of the Vast. One of those edges bleeding together I'd guess.

"I noticed the trapdoor appeared to have been disturbed. It was unlocked." - Jon, you are paranoid about the absolute right things!

"The only difference now is… all the spiderwebs. They seem to have spread down there. I think I saw some of the larger specimens actually eating the remains of the worms." - Well…

I used to be obsessed with Leibniz's monads idea, it was so cool

[lonelyarchives]

OK I would like to throw my two cents in on the JonMartin song discussion because I have a lot of love songs in my playlist and I end up thinking about these dummies more than I probably should

SO The Killing Kind was making the rounds a little while back and I absolutely love Mariana's Trench and their music. And they have SO MANY JMart song options like!

Only the Lonely Survive

THIS! Is like my top favorite so it goes first. Maybe it's a little too on the nose though, ha. If Jon had never rescued Martin from the Lonely, or if Martin had decided to go through with Peter's plan. If they hadn't chosen each other, they likely would have survived in some regard. And even in the end of the podcast you can argue that it fits. Basira is alone. Georgie and Melanie have each other, yes, but they've lost their people/followers (they get them back! theoretically). Even the other avatars survived (rip not really Simon).

Notable lyrics

but i'd rather hurt here than be happy somewhere else

no one will scar me like you do/but no one will ever be compared, compared to you

a love like this will end in tragedy

burns us both/to love this close/we lose ourselves/and i know we won't get out alive (and it's alternative: it hurts like hell/to love this well/but no one falls/the way we fell/we'll burn alive)

This is gonna get long, so the other songs below the cut!

One Love

THIS SONG. Is pure s4 Jon pining after Lonely Martin. I could literally copy and paste the entire song. You just have to listen or at least look at the lyrics to understand. Jon realizing everything he's lost post-coma. How much it hurts not having Martin around. Him coming to realize his feelings for Martin, and Martin not being able to reciprocate while working through his plan with Peter. I could go on.

Notable lyrics I'll try not to quote the entire song

your sad blue eyes like mine/full of pity now but I don't know why

now you're nothing more than a silhouette/but just hold quick you're fading right/in a cold trick of the light/i'm just so sick, i though you'd might be here/but you di-disappear

you've been wishing but you don't know how to stay/and i've broken but i'm better every day

now i pine for phantom pain/it's the only time i see your face

what if we could find a way to try to heal?

what if there was a reason not to go/what if there was still a little bit of hope?

Beside You

This is a safehouse song if I've heard one. Fresh from the Lonely, some time to process all the trauma they've gone through. Somft. Also works for the hc of Selective Mute Martin (fic rec by the way)

Notable Lyrics

when you're overwhelmed/and you've lost your breath/and the space between the things you know is blurring nonetheless/when you try to speak/but you make no sound/and the words you want are out of reach/but they've never been so loud

cause i'm just trying to keep this together/because i could do worse and you could better

Dearly Departed

Ah, what a sweet melancholic song. This is very much s3 before The Unknowing, especially for those headcanons of Jon spending time with Martin before leaving, and coming to realize his feelings right before, well. Also works well for Mag 199 and Mag 200

Notable Lyrics

we don't have to talk of where we go from here

one final shoulder/here before we're none/and then there were none/this last call could be all we can do for each other

we'll toast what could have been

i don't know how to mend it/when this chapter ended

but at least tonight we'll still pretend/hold each other close like it's not the end

forever after you will be my home/and there's no place like home

Echoes of You & Your Ghost

Both lovely songs. Both very fitting for s4 era JonMartin. And also the growing list of ghost-ish!Martin fics (x, x, x)

While We're Young

Another s4 song. I think this one works from the perspectives of both Jon and Martin. I think it's also safe to say I think about s4 way too much. But I love angst, and I love pining, so alas

Notable Lyrics

i was there watching you/watching me, missing you

maybe the truth hurts so/it's easier not to know

i've been so lost without you/and are you lost without me too?

little complacency took you away from me/we both want it but love is not enough you see

Glimmer

Ok so maybe this one is a bit of a stretch. Somewhere in s4 to safehouse timeframe. The lyrics are pretty repetitive, but there's a couple standouts that fit JM so it gets included anyway (it's funny what you find/when you go without)

Who Do You Love

Ok maybe again another stretch. But there are still some very fitting lyrics! This is very much a Jon song. And yes. Another s4 song. In case you haven't picked up on the pattern yet.

Notable lyrics

i miss the way that you saw me/or maybe the way i saw myself/but i came back to you broken/and i've been away too long/i hear the words i've spoken/and everything comes out wrong

nothing will change if you never choose

I Knew You When

This one is more for angst Somewhere Else, about Jon and Martin addressing what happened in Mag 200. So this one is not really associated with canon I suppose, but fanon. It Will Be This, Always by @bluejayblueskies is the fic I really associate this with. Their take on what happens Somewhere Else is just *chef kiss* How the decision Jon made against the group put a strain between them. How they struggle to overcome the hurt they caused each other. But still so desperately wanting to try to fix things between them. And giving Jon a voice! Rather than him placating Martin and acting like Jon's decision was the bad decision/wrong decision/what have you. I think the song especially fits chapter 9, but I won't say anything else without risking spoilers. Check the fic out, and Jay's other wonderful fics!

Don't like Mariana's Trench? Or want some other options? I gotchu. I have so many songs and I've thought about this way more than I should.

Walk Me Home by P!nk. Mag 159/safehouse vibes

Another Place by Bastille. Bit of a stretch, but very much 'Somewhere Else' vibes or would they have ended up together without the trauma convos

I have way more Stray Italian Greyhound anyone? All This And Heaven Too? I will eventually make my own JonMartin playlist. I just apologize that there'll be a lot of MT on it.

[creativitycache]

If you're still up for TMA theory discussion, I'd like tp know where you think Georgie, Melanie, and Basira's arcs are gonna go. I know a lot of people have general plot theories but its a bit harder to figure out character arc trajectories, and Georgie's role in this season specifically is something I'm very intrigued by but have no real idea where its going.

I AM ALWAYS UP FOR TMA THEORY DISCUSSION

I think Georgie’s character arc must go towards the ethics and privilege of “opting out” of unjust systems. Her entire stance has been “Just quit. Just stop. Just be a Good Trauma Victim, stop being a Bad Trauma Victim.” She is analogous to rich people saying “It’s not that hard to shop ethical.” (By the fact that she can afford a multi-room place by herself in London on a podcast wage is proof she literally must have some other source of money. She fundamentally does have privilege in the regular world.) And now, with her in a blind spot, she potentially is once again is in the privileged position of not having to deal with the full scope of horrors.

Despite being in a blind spot, she is still in a world that people cannot opt out of the horrors of. She must confront this. She also must confront her role in the creation of this world, just a upper middle class person in a yuppie store must internalize that there is no simple “just shop ethically” solution for most people.

Melanie is along for the ride on Georgie’s arc. She is the “Good Victim”. She did it ostensibly “right”- she clawed her way out, she went to therapy. Through blood and toil she managed to get her way into a better situation but she is still literally scarred. She is a foil for Jon. She is also a perfect mechanism for Georgie’s revelation that the Fears (capitalism) can be mitigated but you are still trapped by them. I will bet dollars to donuts she is like Martin. Sure she never emerged as a full “Avatar” but an Avatar is just a word. Actually- Georgie’s been touched too.

I bet Georgie and Melanie have a domain. I bet they are going to be analagous to people making their money off passive bank accounts invested in oil stocks, or terrible run down apartments. They recieve the benefits of untold suffering, but they don’t See it.

They will have to.

Basira’s arc is more tricky. She is clearly involved in the Eye, and we’ve mostly dealt with her ACAB issues. Where does she go from here? Does anyone have any thoughts on what sort of metaphor she might be?

[somanyfuckedupiftruebooks]

Another example of Nicole being very clever and reacting sensibly. First of all, wearing gloves in the first place, second of all, not causing a scene in front of a Corruption avatar.

Seems good, but personally I'd be inclined to take the hand off entirely. Cut off the infection before it spreads, like gangrene.

Do we think that Uncle George was the one who called in the Hunters? It would explain why they showed up, but I can't think of how he would know either of them. He really does seem to recognise that something very bad is happening, so he might be aware of the supernatural if not the Entities. Maybe he called someone who called the Hunters?

Yikes! I hate that!

Hmm. I've juat realised that this was why they could never figure out what she was trying to tell them on the phone. The line wasn't patchy, her throat was just full of flies.

I wonder why Trevor attacks her. At first I figured it was because he thought she was one of the infected trying to escape, but if that was the case the last thing you would do is make physical contact. It's got the vibe of a dog who chases something just because it's running.

Their dynamic here seems to indicate that Julia is the one in charge of their little pack, alrhough she could just be running point on this particular job. Also Nicole almost recognises Trevor, which could be because he was mildly famous for his age-guessing trick, or could indicate that there actually was some prior connection between him and her Uncle. That line about knowledge being a good defence could also indicate that these two are aware of the animosity between Corruption and the Eye?

Yeah that last line really fillled me with dread. It was obvious throughout the statement that Nicole was far more deeply affected by the Corruption than Josh, and I worried that she was so deeply marked that it would consume her anyway if she didn't do something about that hand...

Is it just me, or does this line about hallucinations feel really half-hearted to anyone else? It's like Jon isn't even pretending that he thinks that's a viable explanation anymore, he's just going through the motions.

He sounds so tired.

It's interesting that John went so far to cover his tracks. The care home was officially closed down, there were death certificates for some of the patients dated prior to everything happening, the workers were undocumented and easy to disappear. Despite the 'patchy' records, this was a pretty reasonable cover-up, which probably would have been even better if it hadn't been interrupted and burned down.

I attribute this to the fact that John Amherst is one of a generation of older avatars who have been doing what be does for a very long time. He doesn't have the resources or connections of the Fairchilds or the People's Church, but at least he knows what he's doing.

Mag 36

Wow. Seems like as we are getting closer to the end of the season we are getting way more explicit with the mysteries! Last episode was talking about balance and fear, now we're getting the different categories of fear and how they can bleed together...

Very interesting how Nicole starts her statement with about as clear a reference to the Entities as anyone who is unaware of them is likely to make, then goes straight into outlining how she fears Corruption and not the End.

I think this is an indication of how deeply marked by her experience she was. She is able to feel not only the difference between the Corruption and the End, even if she doesn really Know it (just like Jane Prentiss), but also she is making connections about the true nature of Corruption which may not be obvious to an outside observer (also like Jane Prentiss).

This is deeply funny. I can only aspire to this level of pettiness.

It was a happy place :(

It's awful how Corruption bleeds out and infects the entire world around it. It makes me think of mould growing in food, how by the time any of it is visible the spores have grown all the way through. Like a wasps' nest growing hidden in an attic; like worms breeding in the dark...

One thing that really strikes me about both Josh and Nicole is how practical they are. They are both very clever and react to things very sensibly, which is why I think they are both still alive. That and a health dose of luck.

Of course Josh doesn't shake this guy's hand! He looks sick and there's a fly crawling on his eyeball!

Also, John counter: 9

I feel like I say this basically constantly whenever there is a Corruption or Flesh statement, but YUCK.

[ghostbustermelanieking]

i feel like i should clarify: 1. this is in no way intended to deny the inevitable tragedy of tma (i have made my peace with it, am even a little excited about it, and only expect it to end unhappily in some way unless the Dumb joke i made about them fucking with us actually happened). 2. most of my tragic ending jokes and speculation come from me trying to decipher my own constant habit of getting my expectations too high with tma and being kind of underwhelmed at the result. which has nothing to do with the quality of writing really, but i have wondered if i'll imagine some insanely devastating finale and then it wont actually be that bad.

but anyway! i will elaborate on "define okay"

general fandom consensus -- and my own thinking for a long time -- is that the show will end with either jon or martin or both dying, and most likely jonah magnus too. (i've seen varying opinions on other characters, and while i tend to buy into the idea that melanie and georgie will make it out ok, i could see them and basira dying, too. i really dont know.) i've always agreed with this point, but now i'm considering three potential scenarios for, like, the jon and martin of it all:

only one of them die

both of them die

NEITHER of them die, somehow. and the possibilities here get pretty varied

how could that happen, when we've been repeatedly assured this will end badly? well first of all, there are plenty of bad endings that could exclude one or both of them dying. (jon ascends and goes Full Avatar, they both ascend and go Full Avatar, jon sends martin through the crack in hill top road but cant go through himself, the world is saved but one or both of them forget each other, they dont die but the show ends with the inevitably that jon will fade after being cut away from the eye, ETC.) but also -- and correct me if i'm wrong -- jonny and alex have never outright confirmed that jon and martin are going to DIE. they've confirmed no one will be OKAY. and that could mean a lot of different things.

this whole thought process was set off by me reading that quote from the s2 q&a about not being okay is how horror works, and instantly thinking "well no not necessarily" because i can think of plenty of horror movies where things end relatively positively. specifically i thought of the conjuring movies. spoilers but NO ONE DIES in the conjuring movies, at least not in 1 or 2, and i would call them very strong examples of horror. and of course, there are limitations with them being drawn from real life, but the fact remains they are grounded haunted house movies where no one dies. but i wouldnt necessarily say that characters are "okay" at the end of those movies. 1 ends with a possessed mother trying to kill her two daughters. 2 involves a young girl being possessed, tormenting her family, and nearly falling out a window. everyone is traumatized, some are injured, and it's clear no one will be the same. it's an uplifting ending both times, sure, everyone is together and loves each other and have the chance to heal, but is everyone okay? i would argue no. and the movies arent weaker because of it. there's other examples of happier endings in horror films -- some where no one dies, some where some die and some go on and heal, some where everyone dies but its still ok at the end. and in none of those scenarios would i say everything is okay.

do i think tma will end like the conjuring movies? no. that's not what has really been foreshadowed, and this show has not been shy about killing off characters before. but here is what i do think. this show will give us catharsis, whatever way that comes. that's what a good ending does. i dont think it'll all be despair -- repeatedly this podcast has communicated messages of hope and love and friendship among all the bad stuff. theres a good possibility jon and martin will die, that maybe everyone will die. i'd believe that. but i'm considering other possibilities. all this rambling stuff to say: i don't necessarily think tma will absolutely positively end with everyone, jon or martin in particular, dying. i think there are other possibilities. i think "no one is going to be okay" leaves a lot of room for interpretation. so that's what i mean when i say "define okay."

thinking idly on the tma ending promise that no one will be okay, and now i just have one question for rq: define okay