#also disliking a character is not inherently a moral or political stance lmao

[eisthenameofme]

"I've never seen anyone in the TMA fandom say they hate a male character"

A. I've seen fifty seven million people say they hate Elias specifically

B. I'm personally less than thrilled with Martin and have seen other people say the same thing

[gameofthronedd]

Daemyra: Archaic Vs Contemporary, Bias and Double-Standards

One thing that really ruffles my feathers in regards to support of Daemyra... is being all "Well, in medieval times..." but not applying that same logic to other aspects of the show and characters.

In the Daemyra situation, it's the logic of "no, he isn't a gr***er because at the time Rhaenyra is eligible for marriage and is a 'woman grown'". But there's a completely different attitude involved when it comes to the situation with Rhaenyra's bastards and premarital sex.

Warnings for: mentions of gr**ming minus the asterisks for brevity/accessibility/readability etc., long post, cursing/strong language

If we're using period/universe accurate logic, then, yes, perhaps Daemon's relationship with Rhaenyra isn't strange and it certainly isn't uncommon (see: Viserys and Aemma, Rhaenys and Corlys). However, I think that if you're using in-universe logic then you can't really maintain integrity whilst losing your shit when someone points out that Rhaenyra's actions are politically problematic and, daresay, inappropriate (using in-universe logic, of course!).

Based on contemporary morals, we know that premarital sex isn't inherently bad (except in the eyes of some religions, for example) and that having bastards is not a bad thing (obviously may be an issue for the aforementioned). We know that women can be sexual beings and find pleasure in that, that agency and autonomy are important for women just as it is for men. So on, so forth.

But with contemporary morals, we also know that Daemon's relationship with Rhaenyra when she is young is inappropriate. In the first episode, she is 14/15 and is involved in what may amount to grooming (such as gift-giving as seen via the necklace which is specifically crafted for her). We also see that Daemon provides and fulfills her desires for freedom and adventure, and he does pose as this "untouchable bad boy" figure.

When she's about 18 in Episode 4, Daemon takes her to the brothel and allows her to explore sexuality... before abandoning her and leaving her exposed, and consequently compromising her integrity. Whilst she is the "acceptable" age here, by contemporary morals I'd assume that we can all agree that it is inappropriate for Daemon to take Rhaenyra to a brothel and put her in a physically dangerous situation, away from the safety of the Kingsguard and her sworn protection, and to then leave her there in that situation.

It just appears strange to specifically rely on in-universe/period appropriate logic solely for the Daemyra situation yet other issues being addressed through this perspective are met with anger. Personally, I think both should be used and interrogated. But most Daemyra supporters I've seen tend to have a more contemporary stance on other issues yet only apply this in-universe logic to the Daemyra situation, and dislike it when such a perspective is applied to Rhaenyra's situation.

In regards to that, and as an example...

Based on archaic logic (I'm just going to call ASOIAF/in-universe/period-accurate logic "archaic logic" from now on lmao), Rhaenyra engaging in premarital sex, whether with Daemon or Criston, would be considered inappropriate. Women would be expected to remain a "maiden" until marriage and it would be highly dishonourable to engage in sexual activities before marriage. Rhaenyra's adventure to the brothel (and subsequent engagement with Criston - though the former is the extent of what the important figures become aware of, excepting Alicent) places her in a precarious decision in terms of her integrity as a woman & as heir.

From a contemporary perspective, we know that's bullshit. Men, Viserys and Daemon both included, frolick often in brothels and their sex lives are not as highly criticised as women. I can't name a male heir or ruler in the ASOIAF universe whose legitimacy and position was/would be called into question because he had sex. Yet Rhaenyra, being a woman, inherently faces prejudice if her engagement in premarital sex becomes widely known. We know, as a modern audience, that Rhaenyra's sex life shouldn't be everyone's business.

But why is it unacceptable to consider an archaic perspective when considering this... yet we can only use an archaic perspective to discuss Daemyra?

The obvious answer is bias, of course. I'm not into shitting on people's enjoyment. Like what you like, I won't stop you. But I'm going to critique because, uh, I can. And my personal bias is not for Daemyra, if you couldn't tell. So, anyway...

The HOTD fandom is a situation where lines are drawn and there is very transparent bias. I'm biased, you're biased, we're all biased. That's life. The situation with Daemyra definitely shows that.

Fans of Team Black, especially diehard Rhaenyra stans, tend to rely more heavily on contemporary/modern values and morals... except for Daemyra fans, whereby there's a noticeable shift towards archaic logic. This is noteworthy because it evidences that the subconscious bias recognises that sticking to contemporary values would result in having to make excuses for behaviours that are noticeably inappropriate aka grooming. So it's easier to rely on archaic logic to explain it away as being appropriate for the time. Ta da, no moral quandary!

The issue here isn't that they're using archaic logic because then I'd be a hypocrite. The issue is that those in this locus are transparently making an exception for themselves to avoid addressing the behaviours that are inappropriate based on contemporary values, whilst being critical of archaic logic being applied elsewhere. Obviously, the same can be said about other groups and situations.

My point is this:

Analysis of HOTD is interesting and media literacy of any entertainment content allows us to perceive the world in different ways and address a variety of issues in society, as well as understand the characters, ourselves, others and the world.

I think it's good to consider both archaic and contemporary attitudes towards different situations presented in HOTD. I also think it's good to be aware of and reflect upon personal biases, and perhaps scrutinise more closely why we instinctively shift towards one form of analysis, archaic or contemporary, over another.

Personally, I think that the show's narrative somewhat purposefully portrays Rhaenyra and Alicent's interactions with "romance" as both highlighting the damage patriarchy can inflict upon young girls, and the different ways it can manifest. Alicent is married off to an old man against her will and has his children whilst still being a child herself. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra is being drawn into sexuality and romance by Daemon, more or less being "lured" into what is expected of women as well as being lured into a precarious situation that places her wellbeing and position as heir at risk.

Both are women being manipulated as pawns of the patriarchy. Alicent evidently has no choice, devoid of her agency as a girl, whilst Rhaenyra has the illusion of choice, believing she is in control whilst being pulled left and right by Viserys, Otto, Daemon etc.

I could definitely go into more detail. But, anyway, those are just my thoughts on the double-standards of the Daemyra situation. Just a personal pet peeve. I feel like if you're supporting Daemyra then there's a necessity to acknowledge the contemporary/modern perspectives of it, especially if being critical of instances where archaic logic is applied elsewhere. Hope that makes sense 🙏🏻