#also I'm the biggest clown myself so I don't have the moral high ground ^^

[queen-of-meows]

Hi !

I'm glad you two seem to have found a common ground after all 😊.

In the end, I think we're all splitting hair, because we mostly agree on the main lines (I say we as Loki fans).

In the end of the day, who cares if the stairs led to the throne room, the chicken pen or the third floor bathroom ? The point is that he helped a prisoner to escape as a little mischief, and said prisoner ended up killing his mother. It's the cruel irony of the fate, and another tragedy in Loki's life. (Also, in Thor 1, Loki did the exact same thing and blamed Thor for the "death" of Odin to mess with him. I wonder if Mobius lying to Loki was meant to be a throwback or if it's just cheer luck.)

Now I think a lot of the bad meta (or lack of meta ^^) comes from the casual viewers rather than fans. Not to play no-scottsman fallacy, but usually, poeple who ship two character do it because they love both of them an want them to be happy. And beyond shipping, if someone says something highly incorrect, they should rewatch the show and listen to the fans before interacting in fan spaces. That's basic courtesy to avoid spreading misinformation and looking stupid in public.

When it comes to abusive scenario in shipping, you will always have poeple with kinks. I've seen a lot of violent erotica in Frostiron, Thorki or Lokius art too (I can mostly think of m/m ships because those are the most represented ones in fan spaces and I don't really look for dark content on purpose.) I don't think poeple should post those kind of things in public spaces that are not 18+. I'm no one to pass a judgement, it's the Internet and after a while you are a bit jaded. If you've been anywhere near the My Little Pony fandom in 2012 you get what I mean. You can't have a fandom 100% safe from these things, because humans gonna human.

And to give my two cents that nobody asked for, there is definitively a big gossip issue in the Loki fandom ^^. Poeple are jealous of other sections for some reason and will select the worst tweets and Tumblr posts to complain with their friends. I think we're all a bit guilty of that, because sometimes we read things that make us want to smash our head against the wall. But it's important to remember 2 things : 1 it's only one person acting out and not the whole group, and 2, this person is likely an idiot who didn't think of the implication of their words. (they're still accountable for the racist, sexist or any other offensive undertones of their opinion, of course. But in fandom wank, words often go faster than thought and not everyone with a dodgy fandom opinion is a raging bigot irl).

Anyway, it was my useless addition to this very long post. Both of you made great arguments and I don't even think there was any conflict here ?

Have a good day !

It’s funny that, before Sylvie was even properly introduced in the show, she was set up as a Loki variant - you know, Loki, the guy who was a villain of three movies - and somehow people think it’s upsetting that she turns out to have villainous qualities. “Why did she have to kill her fellow variants when she could have tried to free them and join them in a revolution against the TVA?”, I don’t know Becky, why did Loki have to try and commit genocide against his fellow jotunns when he found out he was their stolen prince, instead of joining them against Odin’s imperialism? Why Loki taking out his self esteem issues on a failed attempt to conquer a planet full of innocent people who did nothing to him make him a complex and tormented villain, but Sylvie killing officers who were actively trying to harm her make her a heartless bitch?

It’s literally a theme point that Loki feels connected to Sylvie because her lust for vengeance at all costs reminds him of himself in his villain days (“I’ve been where you are”), but people somehow insist that her anger and cruelty are meant to be seen as positive or heroic, or justified, when the narrative is clearly highlighting them as moral flaws that are weighting her down and that she must put behind her. Not to mention that her arc is not done yet, and we already see the regret creeping onto her when she weeps on the floor after killing He Who Remains.

Loki stans will write walls on meta on how even smallest things about his life, like a brief passage of Heimdall being casually rude to him, or how Volstagg being casually dismissive of him, of even Sif’s brief side eye to him, equals to terrible abuse that explains how he became the bitter villain that he’s turned into. But Sylvie having her reality erased as a child because the equivalent to God Himself has deemed that her very existence was crime against Creation, which forced her to live on the run jumping from one mass death event after the other, seeing everyone she’s ever known being fated to die soon, while she’s hunted down like a dog, is something she should just get over. And that would totally not explain how she became so hardened and angry. Right.

Bottom line: moral ambiguity is for male characters only, women are not allowed to have moral flaws to grow out of, and if Sylvie has a male variant played by Hiddles himself her haters would be fawning over him as their new wobbie villain.