#also I hate talking about things objectively. do u know that ppl are driven by emotions djdndjdjjfnffjcndjf

[inthepercolator]

First off I wanna say that I guess when u analyse something you dip ur toes into talking about ethics and morality so each scene, character, story etc is different for everyone based on their personal values - idk art is fun bc it’s subjective and everyone has their own take,, so anyway now I’m going to throw my hat in the ring apzxmskskdkeke

Okay I see a lot of people say that Albert being persistent in continuing Laura’s autopsy was objectively the right thing for him to do in terms of solving her murder and I want to say yes, u are right to some extent and that objectively if u want to solve a murder you should examine the scientific aspects

However, I don’t think he was morally in the right - I don’t think anyone in that scene was more morally upright than anyone else involved aside from maybe cooper - but I personally don’t agree with saying that Albert was the most correct person in that instance,, Let me explain myself hhugdhfx

Ok so,, Alberts perspective is that to help the murdered girl u have to find her killer and to find her killer he has to do his job. He’s right in that regard. When it comes to respecting the wishes of the family? No. He’s uhhh no

Of course you can see this when he gets decked in the face - something Harry shouldn’t have done might I add - but it does line up with how someone might react to a stranger making a point of taking a saw to a cadaver without the consent of their loved ones.

Idk from the perspective of the towns folk who grew up knowing Laura it’s a harrowing thing,, and everyone has their own reasons for not letting an autopsy take place. Could be religious, on behalf of the victim, or even that the family simply can’t handle the thought of it.

Saying that someone is wrong for not wanting their child to be examined by a stranger probably isn’t the best.. like ‘oh they mustn’t want the murder solved’ or ‘oh that’s so selfish the killer is still out there’ Imo… idk people grieve differently and invalidating that so easily just doesn’t seem.. right to me (I know it’s a show but yknow it’s played like this is a real plausible situation)

Anyway on a side note cooper sides with doc Hayward and Harry blah blah and you could say that it’s him taking Laura’s murder personally (which I do in part) or that it’s a calculated move so he can get on the good side of the locals to get more info on the murder but I think that would be a huge disservice to coopers compassion - we see it throughout the show, how he deeply cares for everyone affected by Laura’s murder and for Laura herself. Idk maybe coop is different in s3 but.. at his core he is just full of love.. he romanticises and finds the good in everything and he acts with kindness,, I think that’s such a special thing?? Not a lot of shows have characters who employ compassion in such a way so mwah love u coopy

[likearecordbb]

about your post on the recent discourse...

it's honestly so confusing to me because like,, you say that ppl pointing out how members of this fandom will make neil very stereotypically 'feminine' is reinforcing the idea of 'masculinity' as one thing and 'femininity' as another.... and i get that we should get rid of these labels. but at the same time... the content itself that ppl are criticising (the ones that 'feminize' neil) are already doing just that. that's why they're criticising it.

i can't point out how ppl are reinforcing the idea that a relationship should have a 'man' and a 'woman', without... saying that that's what they're doing. the writer themselves already sees relationships this way and 'masculinity' and 'femininity' as two different distinct things. that's exactly *why* they're writing neil this way while keeping andrew close to canon.

there's nothing wrong with neil being stereotypically 'feminine' of course. but to act like it's somehow misogynistic for me to go to these ppl and be like 'hey, u shouldn't view mlm relationships through the lens of a hetero one! it can be very harmful' is weird to me... *especially* considering these stereotypes that ppl are pushing onto neil come from misogyny themselves. (ppl making neil much much more emotional than he is in canon while keeping andrew very stoic)

idk, like... ur simultaneously saying that we shouldn't view relationships as needing a 'man' and a 'woman'... while defending people who are doing just that and creating content which reinforces just that.

it's one thing to say 'we shouldn't view masculinity and femininity as two distinct and different things!'/'we should get rid of these labels all together cause they're meaningless'... but if i look at the content that u make/consume and it's practically, if not entirely, all andreil conforming to heternormative stereotypes... then i can't help but feel like ur not as detached from the idea of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' as u would like to believe... i trust the ppl who say these ideas are meaningless while not changing the canon characters because they seem to be sticking to their words.

people will just say that they prefer writing andreil is this heternormative way... they'll just say it what they like or what they're most comfortable writing without ever questioning *why* they prefer it this way.

and if they're projecting.. well then, *why* this couple? why pick an mlm couple to project what is often the experience of a cis woman in a relationship? why pick this mlm couple when there are others that do fit the stereotypical heternormative dynamic? idk. like,, u can do this ofc, but ppl can also call u out on ur shit.

there's an undeniable reason that neil is exclusively the one that ppl pick to make more stereotypically 'feminine'. and there's a reason this type of content is also so popular. and it's certainly not wrong to point this out.

You know, I can see all of these points that you're making. For me, the overall issue of this is very complicated. I am also super uncomfortable with the imposition of heteronormative roles onto...well, onto any relationship, regardless of the identities of the people who constitute it. I was raised smack dab in the middle of the gay community by lesbian moms (together 38 years now, jfc, can you imagine??), so that "man/woman" thing was never something that I grew up internalizing or normalizing. I can recognize that this may give me a bit too much of a sense of objectivity.

However, I'm also like...I've been ruined by grad school. The "feminizing" word makes me really uncomfortable because it starts to stray for me into gender essentialism territory. It also seems to foundationally differentiate between "masculine" behaviors and "feminine" behaviors and I just really hate that? Lesbian moms, trans daughter, bi (and late-in-life trying to see where on the ace spectrum I might fall) self, I've just met so many people with so many expressions of gender and sexuality and I just... Idk, I automatically resist anything that feels like it's upholding "masculinity" and "femininity" as real (as in, not constructed) things. And then I also am like, well, I've known SO MANY gay men who behaved in the ways that the discourse constructs as "feminized" and then I start to feel like, what about these men? Are they less 'men' because of it? How would it feel for that man to read these things saying his identity expression was a problem or a bad stereotype? Do I read *Neil Josten* within that context... no, not really. I think Neil has a 'not enough emotional expression' problem way before he has a 'too much emotional expression' problem.

I'll say here what I often say to my students in complex discussions: I don't have answers. I don't think I'm right and anyone else is wrong. I just have complicated thoughts and feelings and concerns about some of the things that sometimes seem to be left uninterrogated.

So, I do 100% get the need to be vigilant about the imposition of a "man" (dominant, emotionally constipated, sexually driven, stoic) role and "woman" (emotional, needy, teary, dependent) role onto relationships with two (or more!) men or women. I would also argue that we need to get rid of that idea in hetero relationships, too, because it's super damaging. I just wish we could find a way to talk about that that didn't feel like it was accepting this idea of femininity as a given? And I definitely agree that it's problematic when the 'bottom' in a relationship is depicted as the one who's soft and silly and weepy. (Have you read TJ Klune's Tales from Verania series? A VERY fun world that does that not at all and it's great). I'm not saying these things are not worth confronting--I'm just really uncomfortable with the way the conversations are often framed around a concept of femininity/feminizing. It feels like shrapnel, I guess? Like, 'ugh stop feminizing Neil he's not weepy and uwu he's a badass' feels inherently to me like it's making femininity and badassery mutually exclusive? Maybe I'm just looking for a caveat or footnote in the argument that acknowledges that that is constructed *for women too*? And is a part of, like, a larger heteronormative patriarchal structure? And not something that we can just all obviously agree is the way the ladies (should?) behave?

One other question I've been dying to ask, though, is: where are these fics? I don't think I've ever read something where Neil is crying over Jack being mean to him or anything. Maybe if I start to see hints of that characterization, I just close the tab and never end up getting to the 'worst' of it?

Although, if what you said earlier about the "content that u make/consume and it's practically, if not entirely, all andreil conforming to heternormative stereotypes..." was referring to me, then... idk what to say to that. I don't think that's what I do. The heteronormative relationship that you're describing isn't one that I enjoy, desire for myself (or anyone else), or have any interest in reproducing.

Does this clarify what I'm trying to say? I guess it's a really long way of saying, in the old insufferable grad school tradition: well, first we have to define our terms. Because I'm not sure we're all coming up with the same thing when we use the word "feminizing" and that probably has a lot to do with why we keep having this exact same conversation over and over and over again.

If I missed any specific point you'd like to pick at in more detail, please let me know--my very sad platonic life partner (who had to put her beloved 15-year-old poodle to sleep yesterday) and her mom are waiting for me to drive them to the stores for a distraction, so I'm feeling a little time pressure.

[lovehigher]

plus like there r some good / nice ppl at this school but honestly i dont think my work resembles any of the themes this fine arts department carries and the moment i try doing something similar ppl just attack me and make me discourage to even remotely want 2 work in the same topic ever again + there isn’t anyone 2 go talk to abt this except like maybe 2 ppl so basically ur fucked mentally and emotionally dealing w ppl that want to lowkey manipulate u 2 make art in their “way” while at the same time being told ur talented but ur also stealing and better be nice or ull lose ur connections?? plus im not learning anything abt the stuff im actually working on i can read about feminism/object orientated ontology/the commodification of blackness on social media + online/artist that write essays abt their work/watch lectures on youtube abt diff intensive subjects and also find out different techniques for my practice literally online everything is so accessible / the liberal arts here is not good / not good conceptually 4 me that is plus im already reading stufff abt curating/social + public art spaces and watching things abt that and im just wondering when will i get experience outside of my school 4 the stuff im learning ? like there’s classes abt curating and stuff but i dont think there’s much outside exposure of doing that like ? either i take some independent studies and leave for a semester in one of the programs or something + most of my friends are transferring bc honestly there’s no point of wasting so much money for a place that is not worth the money literally my sculpture teacher is failing my friend bc the teacher is bad at taking notes / knows -0 things about art that isn’t conceptually driven by white/cis ideology and like doesn’t have any idea of other ppl’s lives that isn’t a full time student that doesn’t work like idk man she is so disrespectful and literally i think she’s only nice 2 me bc she sees me at art events outside of school ?? idk as the end of the year winds down im weighing my health emotionally/physically and my future and my art and im tired and this is why im sad and stressed and i dont want to waste 3 years somewhere i hate when i can find a better option/space/exposure/learning environment i need