#also @ people in the tags calling me smart: incorrect but appreciated | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

uniiiquehecrt · 5 months ago

Text

Hiya! 😘✨ Thank you so much for the addition! It's always a pleasure to see my THOR posts getting some love, and I appreciate your interaction with this and my other meta! :D I hope you don't mind if I respond in turn!

I feel I should point out that the original post was one meant to showcase simply that Thor is a smart, clever, serious and dynamic character. One that is a far cry from an idiot, and one that is certainly not a "himbo" or "jock" movie stereotype as Dir. Ta*ika Wai.ti/ti, his fans and many of the overall MCU!Avengers fandom (or outsiders to the fandom tbh.) tend to boil him down to.

Those claims are simply unsubstantiated, and grossly incorrect.

(And insulting to Thor and Thor fans. It is beyond irritating.)

The post you responded to and its subsequent replies are meant only to defend that original point, as what the replies it has been met with are usually some defense as to why some MCU fans think it is okay to mischaracterize, and ultimately insult a beloved character and his fans to such a demeaning degree.

As it stands, there is no excuse to mischaracterize Thor's intelligence and integrity as a hero, king/prince, leader, and Avenger. In general. And certainly not even within the text of his own canon appearances. Hence: why the post points out where the definition is unequivocally incorrect. So, while I of course am always delighted by friendly debate on the matter, I do fear that any commentary that continues to debate with me the validity of "why" people call one brother dumb and the other smart is ... entirely missing the point. There is no excuse for that. Period. it is mean-spirited, and fans of Thor are entirely allowed and within their right to point this out, and defend the matter.

As it stands, what you are getting at is another subject matter entirely, and while I do not want this discussion to override the original post and its intentions, I do feel this is worth addressing. Especially since ... you are correct only in that this is a common point of contention in the Thor franchise's fandom.

I want to preface by saying this: I am a brodinsons fan. While I do love and value Thor quite deeply, I also love and appreciate Loki. I always have. I love his arc throughout the MCU (phases 1-3), and I've always found him to be an interesting, dynamic character. ...Within his canon, anyways.

That said: there are a lot of "Loki Fans" out there that, as the original replied-tags said, and as you continue to say, feel the need to tear Thor down to build Loki up.

I simply do not agree with this line of thought. Nor do I see it as an understandable justification.

To be entirely frank with you, my friend, my personal perspective is this: if diehard Loki fans feel the need to tear another character down just to feel justified and/or build their own favorite character up, then I would imagine that they don't have any confidence in Loki's abilities in the first place. And that is a shame. I don't understand that either.

saying they’re equal in this area really just means there’s nothing loki excels past Thor at

Off the top of my head, without looking at movie reference, here are seven interesting/cool things that Loki does on his own credentials:

Mastered Asgardian Sorcery as a Frost Giant, to the point of being known as the greatest Sorcerer in all of Asgard.

Mastered a loose capacity of "Bifrost" magic, thus finding found pathways between worlds, and being able to glamour himself from Heimdall's all-seeing eyes.

Mastered wielding the Destroyer, Gungnir, the Casket of Eternal Winters all with no on-screen training.

Is known to have a silvertongue, and uses his wits and guile to get in and out of most situations.

Wielded two infinity stones at the same time.

Mastered the ice pick grip with his daggers, and can defeat 4 opponents in quick succession while surrounded.

Enchanted Odin All-Father for 4 years.

As you can see, at no point did I have to bring up Thor, or tear down his intelligence and feats to praise Loki's. Nor did it at all "sting" to do so.

I'm actually quite proud of him, and to that end, I will point out that not only is Thor, as you said, one of the few who do not see Loki as inferior to himself, but he is also very much aware of his brother's strengths, and actively goes out of his way to utilize, and otherwise work in tandem with Loki's skills.

Thor allows Loki to (initially) spearhead efforts to convince Heimdall to let himself and the Warriors get to Jotunheim. (He only stops Loki when Heimdall makes it clear that Loki's lies won't work.) / THOR (2011)

Thor believes in Loki and their brotherhood so much that he was going to ask Loki (if not outright asks him) to "find a way" to stop the Asgardian/Jotunheim war and find a loophole to bring Thor home to Asgard after his banishment. / THOR (2011)

Thor seeks Loki out to break free from Asgard during lockdown. / THOR: THE DARK WORLD (2013)

Thor actively works alongside Loki's illusions and trusts him to keep his word in their combined effort to destroy the Aether on Svartalfheim. / THOR: THE DARK WORLD (2013)

Thor actively tries to ask Loki for help when he is abducted in Sakaar, and seeks his help in finding a ship to leave the planet. / THOR: RAGNAROK (2017)

Thor actively utilizes Loki's speed, quick-thinking and single minded ambition to raise Surtur on Asgard. / THOR: RAGNAROK (2017)

There are definitely more examples, but these are the ones I can easily reference off the top of my head.

For a character whose main storyline revolves around his angst and heartbreak over desperately wanting to be equal to Thor and always coming up short…. Yeah it just feels a little cold to point out the obvious.

Barring the fact that the "obvious" in question is quite literally just myself pointing out, and I quote: "Loki can't easily outwit Thor either." (I would recommend that you do please read the post again), it is hardly "cold" to do so. It is an objective truth. He cannot easily outwit Thor. They grew up together. Thor knows him better than anyone else, and he certainly knows when Loki is lying to him. Especially when Loki has done nothing but lie and betray him throughout the course of THOR, AVENGERS, and DARK WORLD. It is unfortunate that Thor learned that Loki would turn against him, but it is an unfortunate truth that Thor grew to contend with, and had begun to respond to by becoming justifiably wary of him.

A huge part of Loki’s character is that he’s seen as, [...] Thor’s second fiddle.

I'll touch more on the rest of this point of yours below, but to this end: I disagree with your implication that this makes Loki unimportant. First of all, the second fiddle is a supporting role, and that can be an incredibly integral part. (See: the above six points of Thor actively seeking Loki out, for context.) In an orchestra at least (something I have personal experience with), the second chair violin is not any less important than the first chair violins just because second chair doesn't necessarily always get to play the melody. (Also, usually the melody switches between the entire orchestra, so to say that the second violins don't get a chance to shine alongside the group is false. Yes, this metaphor applies to Loki.)

Secondly, Loki is not a joke to Thor or to anyone else in their universe anyways.

You say that the Warriors only like Thor better, but within the context of the overall discussion, it sounds more like the implication is a misunderstanding that the Warriors wholly dislike him. I don't want to put words into your mouth, so let us presumptively agree that there is at least a presumptive claim within the overall Loki fanbase that this may have been the case. (Being that the Warriors dislike or were not friends with Loki.) I would disagree with that sentiment either way. Or at least I would before Loki's (perceived) insurrection of the throne, followed by Thor's death (the Destroyer), and his attack on Earth (New Mexico and New York), — all of which are very unlikeable things by the way. But I digress on that point to point out what you do neglect to admit overall: the Warriors would not have been concerned about Loki's betrayal if they were not fully aware of, and hold an equal amount of respect for Loki's guile and capabilities.

If they did not first consider him a powerful ally, then they would not consider him a powerful, potential enemy.

And so, to then justify this ... rather envious lens to such retrospection, the stated:

Loki [...] feels like Thor's second fiddle. [...] For a character whose main storyline revolves around his angst and heartbreak over desperately wanting to be equal to Thor and always coming up short [...]

Also falls flat to me.

Just because Loki feels this way does not mean it is true. People - and especially characters - can wholeheartedly believe something that is entirely a misunderstanding or a fabrication. The feeling may be a valid one, but that does not make it correct in any capacity.

When Loki says "I only ever wanted to be your equal!", he means that he wanted to work alongside Thor. He also means that he wanted to be as beloved/popular as Thor.

But if Loki stopped focusing on Thor and what Thor can do that Loki cannot, Loki would find that he was liked by the people he thought dislike him, is capable of a great many things that are unique to himself, and that all of these skills work in tandem with and in favor of Thor, and thus make Loki Thor's equal already. He would also find that Thor has already known this, and has always acted upon this. In this matter, Thor's greatest shortcoming has only ever been that he simply thought this was an obvious fact that Loki already knew. (Note: "greatest", not "only". His impulsive and short temper are flaws too.)

More than that: Loki and Thor are allies and brothers who love one another fiercely. To pit one against the other is entirely a fool's errand, and frankly the entire point of their story in the MCU. They are better together. Tearing them apart only causes misery for themselves and others.

Lastly, I would like to end my part of the discussion by pointing out one thing.

Thor beats him in every category. The only thing Loki fans really have to cling to is Loki’s undeniable cleverness.

Let's ignore the fact that I brought up seven things that can be pointed to in Loki's favor.

I simply do not see why it is that Loki needs to have anything to "beat" Thor in, in the first place. Truly, I cannot understand the logic behind a sentiment like that. Why should Loki be compared to anyone else other than himself and his own actions? And why should Thor and Thor fans be made to feel badly about Thor's own strengths?

They are two completely different people with different strengths and weaknesses. One is street-smart (Thor) and the other is book-smart (Loki), and there are times and places for either one of those strengths to shine.

So when you say:

Loki [...] is Thor's second fiddle.

Whether or not Loki is capable of the same sheer amount of powerful destruction as Thor is entirely besides the point in any discussion about either Loki or Thor. Thor is a royal Asgardian. He far surpasses every normal Asgardian and any "mortal" aliens, like humans. Even superpowered humans. In the MCU, Thor is on par with other aliens like Thanos (a Titan). His only rivals are the other royal Asgardians who wielded parts of the All-Force that now only he wields. They were both incredibly strong, and now they're both dead. And the kicker is that Thor is still growing.

So, at no point has anyone expected Loki to output the same amount of sheer might as Thor. (If anything they only seem to judge him based on their culture's view of honor and glory. Something that Loki does not adhere to in the same way as the rest of them, but something that Thor constantly learns and grows to appreciate about him.)

Not to again mention that they are two completely different alien species. Not only that, but again, Thor in particular is a special breed of said different alien species. Yet Loki still manages to keep up with Thor in almost every capacity. Something that not even the Warriors can do.

Thor has super-strength? So does Loki. Thor is as quick as lightning? Loki is even faster. Thor has the All-Force? Loki mastered sorcery and some bifrost magic. Thor is a tank and an aggressive first and last line of defense? Loki makes himself Thor's perfect ace up his sleeve for when things go awry. Thor is a capable commander? Loki can think outside of the box. Thor has the strength of every imaginable storm at his fingertips? Loki knows exactly what to say and what to do to bridle it when Thor's impulsiveness gets the better of him, or otherwise add to the chaos.

Loki is Thor's equal and he always has been. They were meant to rule together, and for a very good reason.

Were I to say anything to the Loki fans who feel this way, it would be this:

Your love of your character, and your pride in his feats are already valid just by having them. You do not need to look to outside sources for "justification" in why you love him. Nor why you may favor him over Thor. Just as Thor may simply be to one fan's taste more so than Loki or one of the other Avengers, so too can Loki simply be your favorite without any other pretense to it, and I promise you that is a perfectly fine enough reason on its own. He's a complex character, a fantastic villain and anti-hero, and, yes, he is capable of great things. At no point do you need to be envious of Thor or any other character just because of what Loki can or cannot do.

Do not do your own favorite a disservice by comparing him to anyone other than himself.

But if you insist on comparing Loki to anyone else, then I would implore you to start thinking less about what Loki cannot do that Thor can do, and more about what Loki can do that nobody else can BECAUSE he can do it standing alongside Thor in the first place.

If Thor is the "golden standard", and Loki is his equal and opposite force, then it is far more intriguing to consider, then, all of the many ways in which Loki can define himself and surpass nigh any obstacle simply because he is the brother of Thor.

You’re absolutely 100% correct about all of this, but I feel like just adding perspective on why people so often fall into the trap of ‘Loki smart, Thor dumb’.

Listen. A huge part of Loki’s character is that he’s seen as, feels, and is Thor’s second fiddle. Through no fault of Thor’s own (ok maybe a tiny bit of fault with the “know your place” line etc in Thor 1. Oop.)- in fact I think Thor is one of the few people in Asgard that doesn’t necessarily see Loki as inferior to himself. But like it or not, Loki is inferior to him.

He’s physically weaker (not by a lot, but still), he’s far less popular with the asgardian people, their friend group likes him way less, and even their father clearly favors Thor. Even as far as magic is concerned- the one area that’s always seen as Loki’s thing- well…. to be honest, up until the series, Thor’s magical feats have been waaay more impressive than Loki’s. Thor beats him in every category. The only thing Loki fans really have to cling to is Loki’s undeniable cleverness.

Like yes, of course Thor is also very intelligent, and of course he’s very cunning in his own right… but this is the only possible area where Loki might be a little better than him. And to have it pointed out that actually, canonically, Loki isn’t more clever than Thor. They are, in fact, equal… well that stings a little, you know?

Because saying they’re equal in this area really just means there’s nothing loki excels past Thor at. And for a character whose main storyline revolves around his angst and heartbreak over desperately wanting to be equal to Thor and always coming up short…. Yeah it just feels a little cold to point out the obvious.

That’s not to say you’re wrong! They really are pretty evenly matched smarts-wise and Thor definitely isn’t anywhere near as stupid as fans want him to be. I just think there’s a reason Loki fans are so vocal about him supposedly being the “smart one” lol.

#&&. thor.#&&. | marvel. |#&&. whispers.#musclesandhammering #(the following statements are not directeted at /you/ musclesandhammering btw !!! merely some closing informal thoughts)#(if anyone's response is to continue arguing the idea that loki fans are justified in tearing another character down to build theirs up)#(i would hate to say it but that is /not/ welcome here.)#(while i am all for discussion this is not a matter in which that sort of thinking is ever justified no matter the reasonings behind it)#(in the very least i would much rather you then take your discussions/responses to my askbox and link this post to it)#(-so in that way I may respond to your questions and concerns without further cluttering a post whose point was already-)#(-hijacked by point of views that clearly never appreciated or wholly understood the point of the matter in the first place.)#(which isn't meant as me throwing shade ... contrary to how that sounds...)#(but truly it is mind-boggling to me that the automatic defense/argument became “but loki is smart too! and even smarter than thor!!”)#(when all i said was that Thor is not a /himbo/ and that other Thor fans and I are absolutely at our ////wit's end////)#(with people - EVEN THOSE WHO DON'T WATCH THE MCU - trying to say he's stupid and ignorant when he /is not/ has /never been/.)#(initially loki hadn't even been a part of the post. and if he was it certainly wasn't to compare smart to smart. he was only brought up-)#(-specifically when it was mentioned that Loki is smart and Thor is dumb. In which case need I repeat myself thus: -)#(/Loki cannot easily outwit Thor either/.)#(do you not understand that by saying as much I am /actively praising Loki/ for his feats by saying Thor has /learned from him/)#(when it comes to thor being smart he is able to keep up with booksmart master of the silvertongue and asgardian sorcery Loki)#(and most importantly: stop comparing two completely different characters just to make yourself feel better that's wholly inappropriate....#(...this is again not directed at /you/ specifically musclesandhammering. more in general.)

67 notes · View notes