#all hail turtle pope

[hundredsspoons]

I'm wondering about love/compassion in Elden Ring. It's stupid, but basically, I've always been wanting to build a super-goodie-two-shoes character and have been wondering if an intelligence only or split intelligence/faith build would be more lore appropriate lol

Argument and dlc spoilers below

Just as a preface, I would consider goodness to be kindness, compassion, respect for the autonomy of others, standing up for others. Pretty basic stuff, I think.

Faith is associated with various religions, most of which actively participated in genocides and religious persecutions at some point. This seems to suggest that faith is a symbol of blind devotion that leads to hatred of the Other.

However, faith allows you to use more healing and defensive spells, suggesting a concern with healing those who are hurt or being attacked. This stands in stark contrast with the actual actions of faith-based groups, which would not offer solace to omen and others that viewed as "sick". Does this suggest that the healing "grace of gold" faith is only willing to help certain people, people who the religion deem acceptable? Or does it perhaps suggest that there is a desire to heal at the heart of (at least some forms of) faith that has been twisted by existing religions?

On the Minor Erdtree incantation, it reads

"Secret incantation of Queen Marika. Only the kindness of gold, without Order. Creates a small, illusory Erdtree that continuously restores the HP of nearby allies. Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal."

suggesting that the violence that the Golden Order came to be known for was not at the core of the "gold" religion.

Moving to intelligence, it is the stat that stands in contrast to faith and represents the followers of the stars and moon, like Ranni.

Ranni fights against the oppressive Fingers and says she wants a world where mortals can choose their own fates. So intelligence seems to represent freedom, as well as the opposite of blind devotion. However, Ranni is afraid of the moon for some reason we don't know, possibly simply because the ability to choose your own fate is a terrifying thing or perhaps because she knew she would have to leave the Lands Between behind to follow the moon's will. But possibly because it is also a god with its own agenda.

Putting that unanswerable question aside, her desire for a free world seems quite compassionate. However, the moon is distant and cold, and presumably while it will be too far removed to harm mortals, it will also be too far removed to offer help to mortals as well. Makes sense for the symbol of freedom. And given what we've seen of gods with even good intentions, it might be the best outcome for the Lands Between, even with all the scarlet rot and madness and deathless beings wandering around that you might wish a powerful being was there to deal with. So maybe it is the pessimistic, but truthfully most compassionate ending the Lands Between can have.

So it seems so far that intelligence is clearly the "good" stat.

But we know that intelligence and intelligence-based groups are capable of evil.

On the Graven-Mass Talisman, it reads

"A talisman depicting the first school of graven mages- a nightmare that would continue to haunt the academy. Greatly raises potency of sorceries. The primeval current is a forbidden tradition of glintstone sorcery. To those who cleave to its teachings, the act of collecting sorcerers to fashion them into the seeds of stars is but another path of scientific inquiry."

On one hand, this points to some people treating scientific inquiry in the same way the faithful treat religion- as something that supersedes the importance of the rights and dignity of the individual. On the other hand, they are practicing a tradition that is forbidden by the larger culture. You could say then that the violations that exist as the point and purpose of faith-based systems exist more as exceptions in the cultures that practice intelligence-based spells.

On the Comet Azur sorcery, it reads

"Fires a tremendous comet in a torrent akin to the distant starry expanse, the place said to be the origin of glintstone... When Azur glimpsed into the primeval current, he saw darkness. He was left both bewitched and fearful of the abyss."

And on the Stars of Ruin sorcery, it reads

"...When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster, and upon seeing it, he too was broken."

Interesting to note here is the fact that Azur is looking into the origin of glintstone, which refers to the larger intelligence-based culture. This "primeval current" was enough to drive two of the greatest minds insane, and the Comet Azur description suggests that it is perhaps where glintstone intelligence sorceries came from. I can't help but wonder if this has some sort of relation to the fear that Ranni holds for the moon. You could say that it being frightening doesn't mean it is evil, but it does make me concerned about the potential future of sorceries/weapons/technologies built around it. Perhaps there is a dangerous god at the center of it, or perhaps it is simply a natural occurrence that humanity doesn't fully understand yet, but continues to use for its benefits while blissfully unaware of the potential dangers- something like a fantasy fossil fuel perhaps. A fossil fuel that drives you crazy.

Returning to faith, the other big example of faith and compassion is, obviously, Miquella. He desires a gentler world and is said to help all manners of people- even people hated by the Golden Order and his mother, like the Omen and the Albinaurics. But he slowly gets rid of everything that makes him him -including his love- in order to create that gentler world. It seems that he was at least indirectly responsible for the scarlet rotting of Caelid (presumably before he divested himself of everything?) which, along with his rampant mind control, really makes me doubt his competence, if not his compassion. It's one thing to sacrifice individuals for the "greater good," regardless of whether that is morally correct or not, but it's an entirely different thing to destroy that level of land. Where are people going to grow food in your gentler world, Miquella? In the rot swamp? God knows how many people were killed in the rot explosion. I guess he was just willing to sacrifice like 1/9 of the continent for his goal. That would be like if idk someone nuked most of Texas and said they were doing it for the future of the United States. It's a cataclysmic natural disaster completely at odds with his stated goal. Miquella seems like another example of the perverse nature of faith in this game, even when there are good intentions.

Interestingly, both St. Trina's swords, which represent the love Miquella threw away, use intelligence as a modifier.

However, the reason why I even considered a int/faith build for a "good" character in the first place was Miriel.

Some quotes from Miriel (which I included in a different post as well):

"The Shattering has caused us - all of us - to lose sight of something very dear. It is here, at the Church of Vows, that the great houses of the Erdtree and the Moon were joined."

"Very well, let us both learn together. Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined."

"Radagon once cleansed himself with celestial dew, repented his territorial aggressions, and swore his love to Rennala. The Order of the Erdtree and the fate of the moon were conjoined, and all the wounds of war forgiven. This miracle blesses the church to this day. And so, you need only follow Radagon's example, to restore any bond, however strained or severed, to its rightful state of harmony."

"My faith does not waver. The miracle rooted in these grounds will, once again, mend the world. And this time, its bounty will not be squandered. If you would be Elden Lord, Tarnished, I hope that you, too, will share my faith."

Here are some other examples of faith and intelligence coming together.

The description of the Sword of Night and Flame, a weapon that requires intelligence and faith, reads:

"Astrologers, who preceded the sorcerers, established themselves in mountaintops that nearly touched the sky, and considered the Fire Giants their neighbors."

For the record, the Fire Giants are associated with faith, in case you've forgotten.

The description of Order Healing, an incantation that requires intelligence and faith, reads:

"The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with. Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?"

He's referring to the hunters of Those Who Live In Death here, who kill the undead who supposedly sully the Golden Order of Marika, who removed the rune of death.

In all of these examples, intelligence and faith together represent people embracing the Other, questioning their own beliefs, and ultimately living peacefully with people different from them.

On the other hand, we have Rellana.

The description of the Remembrance of the Twin Moon Knight reads:

"Once a Carian princess, Rellana disavowed her birthright and chose to stand at Messmer's side instead, knowing full well that not even the brilliance of the moon could grant him succor. Before long, she became known as the Sword of Messmer."

The description of Rellana's Twin Blades reads:

"Carian light greatsword embedded with blue glintstone. Weapon of Rellana, the Twin Moon Knight. Two swords as a single armament. When two-handing, a straight sword engraved with golden flame will be carried in the left hand. Here, and here alone, were moon and fire ever together."

First of all, small but annoying detail, the Sword of Night and Flame exists in the base game; Rellana absolutely is not the only example of moon and fire together. Maybe this shows that it is so unusual that Rellana thinks it's never happened before idk

Anyways, she reached out to Messmer presumably out of some sort of love, and while I certainly feel bad for Messmer, he still chose to lead a crusade for his mother. So we have here an example of how love, symbolized by Rellana embracing faith-based flame even though she was a follower of the moon, can lead people to commit atrocities for what they love. This is another theme of the dlc, with Marika beginning her reign of bloodshed after the Hornsent killed (and ig jarred?) everyone in her village and just... all of Miquella.

I should also note that there are multiple Golden Fundamentalist incantations that have int/faith requirements or just int. And these spells seem to be mostly neutral in terms of political allegiance or spiritual beliefs, just in what their descriptions say. However, traditional Golden Fundamentalism frowns on Those Who Live In Death and seems particularly fanatical about Marika and the Golden Order. So these could exist as an argument for int/faith not having anything to do with the acceptance of others.

As an added point, all the gods (with the exception of the Crucible, I think?) come from beyond the stars, including the Greater Will and Elden Beast. Intelligence-based cultures look to the skies for answers, as opposed to a worldly faith, but... most faiths are derived from the same place. And potentially, the moon is just another god.

The Mother of Fingers, the "magnificently gleaming daughter of the Greater Will, and the first shooting star to fall upon the Lands Between" herself came from space, and the two weapons you can get from her Remembrance require both intelligence and faith. One of the those weapons is a staff that lets you cast both incantations and sorceries. So this might suggest that the categorical difference ascribed to them are completely arbitrary to begin with.

Count Ymir and his disciple both look to the stars for guidance in a very Carian-esque manner. And Ymir cradles a fingercreeper and is obsessed with becoming the perfect mother.

The description of the Beloved Stardust talisman he gives you reads:

"A talisman depicting a wizened hand gently gripping a glintstone. Shortens casting speed for sorcery and incantations by the utmost, but increases damage taken. Count Ymir was known for his recitations. 'One need only envision the romance of the stars above with adoration for stardust in one's heart to become a great sorcerer. Do so, and you will know love.'"

Another example of love being related to int/faith and the Fingers being related to the stars. However, like Rellana and Miquella (and to be fair everyone aside from Miriel), he is willing to kill to reach his goal.

And then there's Arcane. :)

Tbh in the base game, I wasn't really interesting in arcane's morality because it mostly involved eating the hearts of others or other inherently violent acts (bloodloss), but the dlc gives us Sir Ansbach, a man fighting to free his lord from Miquella, who is desecrating his corpse, and raises the possibility that Mohg's Blood Dynasty was not as gruesome once upon a time as it is now that Mohg is being controlled by Miquella.

Blood represents life. It is the only source of power that comes from within you, though it might still come from the Formless Mother or the dragons so idk.

Also, one of the kindest characters in the game, Nepheli Loux, is a warrior who uses weapons that rely on strength and dexterity. No faith or int. Meanwhile, we face tons of enemies who weird faith, int, or sometimes both!

So maybe the main takeaway from all this is that it isn't what you use, but how you use them that matters :)

Yes, I did just write a small essay to come to a conclusion I'm sure anyone who made it to this point already came to. 👍🫡

[greenwood-witch]

All hail the turtle pope! Miriel, Pastor of Vows.

Buy it as a sticker if you fancy.