#agatha all along speculation

[wandaswitchbitch]

Smash? SMASH

[marvelsgirl616]

What if he shows up in the finale????

[soliloquy-please]

What really happened at the end of Agatha All Along episode 5...

I might be going off the deep end! But what if that last scene didn't really happen... It was all in his head how he was fantasizing about reacting.

So first off we seen Teen* confront Agatha, see his exchanges with Lilia & Jen as the pass. Teen was aware Agatha was bad in whatever amount (fan theory to people telling him). But when Jen and Lilia also in his eyes betrayed Alice... They might as well go to.

Here is where I think we start to loose reality, I think either right before or right after we see Teen give his "No. Not for me." line. It becomes a revenge fantasy.

Because we see Agatha go complete Villain mode, with the "you're so much like your Mother line". Which? Even if the sigil broke would she be able to tell he was a Maximoff. Or if he put the sigil on himself how would she ever be able to figure it out?

I think Teen is aware Wanda is his birth mother or Agatha is responsible for his adoptive mom's death. She then continues to antagonize him "pet". Until Wiccan reveals just how much he takes after his mom "kills" her along with Jen and Lilia (removes).

... But he now will have to complete the trials alone which he might have the powers to do so! But it'd be a thrash... So I don't think it happened I think he's fucking furious and slightly unhinged having murderous fantasies!

And if I'm wrong which is most likely lol ...well we have explanation for why Jen is popping out of the ground in the promo!

*I'm gonna keep using Teen until they start using Billy or Wiccan... It's grown on me

[kathleenkatmary]

Theory about what actually went down between Agatha and Rio/why they hate each other

Just a little theory that popped into my head. Not too sure I'm actually sold on it, but I think it would fit so I figured I'd share it. I don't know if anyone else has already had this theory because I tend to avoid the show's main tags for fear of spoilers, so if others have already theorized this, please point me in their direction so I can talk about it with somebody.

I'm going to put this under a cut because there's spoilers here for up to episode 4, so if you haven't seen it yet and don't want to be spoiled, go no further.

I know that the popular theory right now is that Agatha never actually walked the road herself before, that she's lying about that. But what if she's not lying about it?

So far most of the theories I've seen talking about what happened between Agatha and Rio and why they hate each other (or claim to hate each other) feel like they give a good explanation for why one hates the other, but not why the hate seems to be mutual.

Based on the most recent episode, it seems to be all but confirmed that Rio is either the avatar of Death or is deeply entrenched with the process of death, and that Agatha's son died and as such she had to take him, even though she didn't want to. Which gives a good explanation for why Agatha would hate Rio. But I haven't read any theories yet that, in my opinion, adequately explain in a way that makes sense why there's so much hate on Rio's side when she clearly feels really bad about having to take Agatha's son.

So I think there are two possible ways this theory could work. The first is that Agatha's son dies, Rio has no choice but to take him, and so Agatha decides she's going to walk the road to get him back. But then when she does succeed, instead of asking for her son back, she asks for the Darkhold. In this scenario, Agatha would obviously hate Rio for taking her son, and Rio would hate Agatha for making the choice to take the Darkhold for herself rather than undoing the thing that Rio didn't want to do, the thing that made Agatha hate her.

The second possibility is pretty much the same, but it just happens in a different order. Nicholas's death wasn't a sudden thing, but the result of a longer illness. They knew he was going to die, that Rio would have to take him, so Agatha decided to walk the road in the hopes of curing him. Which Rio would have supported because she didn't want to have to take him. But, just as in scenario one, when Agatha completed the walk instead of asking for her son to be cured, she asked for the Darkhold. So without being cured, Nicholas did eventually die and Rio did have to take him. In this scenario, Rio would hate Agatha for having the opportunity to not force her to take Nicholas but choosing the Darkhold instead, and Agatha would hate Rio for taking her son.

But why would Agatha ask for the Darkhold instead of saving her son? Hubris. That really was her downfall in WandaVision. The arrogant assumptions she made about her power and what she could do with it. Maybe she assumed that if she had the Darkhold she'd be able to save her son or bring him back from the dead, so she went with the option that she thought would not just grant that wish, but give her more power overall. I feel like this would fit the most with what we've heard on the show so far, because it would mean that the rumor that Agatha traded her son for the Darkhold is somewhat true in essence, but that it, and Agatha's motivations, are far more complex and not so impossible to sympathize with.

It also accounts for the mutual hatred, and in a way that adds a little bit of guilt mixed in with the anger and hatred for one of them, depending on the scenario.

[multifandom-carnage]

Um. So. Episode 5. Happened.

Air trial (I totally called it)

Predictions/theories/stuff I noticed

1. That was an alternate universe (I hope)

2. WHERE THE HELL IS RIO

3. The next trial is either Lilia's or Rio's

4. Was Agatha wearing a Casio watch??? I have a Casio which I barely take off

5. I knew there would be a Ouija board somewhere lmao

6. Teen was Wanda's son and Agatha.... Already knew??? And she was being nice to him??? What???

7. Agatha pretending to be Mrs Hart is perfect lmao

[violethowler]

One of my friends on discord and I were just talking about Agatha x Rio and we got to talking about the lyrics for the different versions of the Ballad of the Witches Road.

Specifically, they pointed out that the characters were debating the lyrics of the ballad in the show itself, and how there was one line that was different between the Sacred Chant version performed at D23, and the version sung on the show itself.

In the show, they sing "if one be gone, we carry on."

But at D23, the cast sang "if sun be gone"

However between all the speculation about what happened to Nicholas Scratch, what happened on Agatha's road, the in-universe debate on the lyrics, and the fact that the in-universe most well known version of the song was a parent-child protection spell, my friend speculated that Agatha's previous attempt at the Road is connected to what happened to her child.

And that the lyric at D23 was actually "if son be gone."

And this could actually even tie into Agatha and Rio's history as well!

(SPOILERS for the funkoPop reveal of Rio's identity under the cut)

Because if Rio is indeed Death as the FunkoPop leaks indicate, well I seem to recall that both the versions of the Ballad from Episode 2 and from D23 contain the lyric "I hold death's hand in mine."

PERHAPS THAT WAS BLOODYDAMN LITERAL AND RIO WAS WITH AGATHA THE LAST TIME SHE WALKED THE ROAD!?

[quant-um-fizzx]

Agatha All Along speculation

Has anyone discussed the possibility that Agatha’s son, Nicholas Scratch, was actually the one who did whatever “magic above[Agatha’s] station” that Agatha was being punished for Salem?

Maybe Nicholas was closer to “born evil” that Agatha’s mom accused her of being? (I hate the idea of anyone saying that or thinking that of their child)

Maybe Nicholas did something that resulted in the Dark Hold manifesting in his place?

I just think Agatha was so dodgy with saying their magic “simply bent to my power” when she could be trying to save herself, she seems more intent on making sure they attack her. Well, maybe she knows she will be able to take their power if they blast her, but I think we are just supposed to think that.

There has to be something to Death having a rule not to kill Agatha, so Agatha has some sort of arrangement or leverage with Death, yet she doesn’t have enough leverage to resurrect Nicholas.

[bioticgoddess]

My sister and I were talking about this earlier. (below the cut for Spoiler purposes).

We both think that Agatha *can't* and has *never* been able to control her absorption ability. That's likely the REAL reason she tells Lilia about how it works in episode 2, a warning and an admission. Her mother hates her from the outset, or at least very early on, and likely didn't teach her how to control it. Both in the original Salem Flashback and when Alice tries to protect her from/exorcise Evanora's ghost, Agatha is surprised and startled and doesn't appear to be able to turn it off. In both cases she looks disoriented too. (Nor can Alice disengage.) We also concurred that it's what I'm gonna call a shield ability gone wrong where if she'd been taught how to use it correctly she wouldn't absorb the power, she'd reflect it back at whoever attacked her.

Don't know if Nicholas Scratch was evil but he may have been our shard of Memphisto made "human" like the Twins were in the comics. We don't know enough about this new version to really do anything. Either way, he definitely seems like her biggest regret. I also suspect his death is the thing Rio didn't have a choice about that fractured her relationship with Agatha in the past.

As for how she knew Billy was Wiccan...I'm not sure she KNEW he was Wiccan. I think she suspected he was the son of someone he knew or (more likely) was just trying to piss him off. That said we'll probably get confirmation one way or another in the next 2 episodes. There's also the possibility that the sigil is gone and she can see his resemblance to Wanda or the Twins and has made the connection. With that bit of Alice's power, she may also have sensed Wanda's magic in/on him. We have 4 more episodes to learn the truth. :3

Neither of us are convinced Alice is dead either. They left Rio with Alice's body in that house/trial zone so it's conceivable something else is going to happen or that Rio may bring her back. But I'm gonna skip the Rio as Death speculation and spoilers for now because that's why I think the Ouija board talked about Death anyway.

Alright. That's it that's the thoughts of my sister as me I.

Theory for the next few episodes: Agatha, Jen, and Lilia are going to have to work together to get back into the road. My general suspicion is that we'll find out confirmation to how Agatha's ability works, what happened to her son, and if Jen's powers are really bound or not. After all, we are still waiting on the episode this gif/frame is from...

EPISODE 5 SPOILERS!!!!!

OMG WHAT THE FUCK HOW CAN THEY JUST END IT LIKE THAT!?!?!?! HOW DID AGATHA KNOW HE WAS WICCAN!?!?!?! AND WHERE THE FUCK IS RIO!?!?!?!? I THINK ALICE MIGHT ACTUALLY BE DEAD BUT I'M GONNA STAY IN DENIAL ABOUT THAT FOR A WHILE!!!!!! THERES NO WAY AGATHA ACTUALLY MEANT TO KILL HER, BUT WAS IT THAT SHE COULDNT CONTROL IT, OR DID NICHOLAS MAKE HER DO IT, OR SOMETHING ELSE?!?!!? DID NICHOLAS DIE AS AN INNOCENT KID OR WAS HE EVIL LIKE IN THE COMICS?!?!? AND PROTECTIVE RIO MY BELOVEDDDDD!!!!!!! AND NOW I HAVE TO WAIT AN ENTIRE FUCKING WEEK WHERE IS THE JUSTICE!!?!?!!??

[wandaswitchbitch]

Agatha a Rio this Agatha and Rio that SHUT UP. (I love them to but...)

The people that are mad because an episode was about Billy Maximoff Explaining his character are actually insane. Like I felt it's necessary to explain. Plus, there's plenty of more episodes coming. It was not a bad episode. It was genuinely a nice backstory moment. 

Like why are we ignoring the fact that we got in-depth detail of why Billy Maximoff is on the road as well as learning about his character. Nobody knew about the amnesia. Nobody truly knew the cinematic version of Billy Maximoff changes and it's an important moment. The episode wasn't a filler. The episode was an explanation. There's gonna be plenty of other moments for Agatha and rio. 

[marvelsgirl616]

..... what if white vision comes back and they meet 👀🥹

-- 💙💙💙💙

[soliloquy-please]

EPISODE FIVE ONLY WAS 25 MINUTES! ONLY! 25!

THEY'RE 30 MINUTES IN A TRIAL!!! Does that mean there is 5 MINUTES OF THE TRIAL LEFT?

Agh!!! Also they exited up! Not down!!

[nyald]

Aubrey Plaza reading Thirst Tweets about railing women.

Rio looking at Agatha.

bonus:

[ahsokazworld]

I'm not entirely sure it's all an illusion, but I can for sure hop on the train of "Cabin Trial is a fake trial" and they were all under the influence of the Salem 7 pushing all of the coven to leave Agatha in the cabin. Not for the road but for the Salem 7. So the trial ain't over yet.

Because I think ultimately "the road" encourages team work and seeing past differences to make to the finish line. It's what worked the previous 2 trials. This went south real fast.

(Also, there is a shot in the trailer where Agatha is completely covered in mud, and she's still a dirty girl when they arrive at another trial.)

Hold the fuck up, this isn’t a real trial.

In retrospect a number of things about the episode, especially the coven's characterisation felt off... and now on rewatch I'm pretty certain this isn't a trial of the Road at all – it's the Salem Seven punishing Agatha.

Clues under the cut with some spoilers from future scenes in trailers / promo clips.

Clue #1 – No screen aspect ratio change

As @wolfcracker points out, for the two previous trials the screen ratio changed once they entered the place (going full screen). We didn't get that for this cabin.

Clue #2 – No phase of the moon decoration at the entrance

We've had these obviously built into the previous trial entrances and but there's no sign of one for this cabin.

The coven's so panicked getting chased by the locusts they don't notice it running in. The door is made of wooden planks with tiny gaps in between and you don't see a sign of any moon on the other side either.

Notably, in a promo shot, you see the moon featured prominently again for an upcoming trial, when Agatha and Billy cross a stone bridge structure.

Clue #3 – Each trial has an element, this cabin doesn't

This was something that seemed odd even before this episode, we saw five weird horror movie-trope settings – assumed to be trials – in posters and promotional materials but there are only four identified elements for the Road.

Sure you could have more moon phases (like we do irl) but the Ballad that is central the show only mentions four: fire, water, earth, and air.

Our first two trials had strong ties with an element: if you failed you'd be killed by that element or something associated with it i.e. drowning or burning.

Now from the promos, an upcoming trial with the anti-gravity effect going on a tower fits well with the air element. And the threat of death here is associated with going into the air.

Notice from the flying forms that this trial does go full-frame like the first two we certainly had (clue #1).

Another upcoming trial we know of (that looks like a morgue or asylum-like place) can be linked with the earth given that we see rocks and earth falling in a shot. Death by crushing earth.

This cabin had no element associated with it at all. The threat of death was by... Agatha siphoning your magic? Or in the case of Agatha, to be tortured forever by her mom?

Clue #4 – The trial area doesn't necessarily keep out the Salem Seven

From the promo shots of presumably the air trial (see above), we clearly see the Salem Seven in the tower attacking them. Why then did Locust and the rest of the Seven leave them alone in the cabin when they were right behind them?

Other sus elements

OK, these are more ambiguous and could be the result of bad writing but here's the other stuff in this "trial" that just seems off

The coven turns really really quickly on Agatha and viciously. And they literally just rode broomsticks where it's mentioned it's "about selflessness" and "we fly together or not at all". I mean yeah the people might lie but they were enough of a team that the magic for the broomsticks worked.

Rio declares that it's Agatha's trial really quickly. Their only clue is that they see a blood moon and Agatha's killed lots of people. And why of all people is Rio snarking about Agatha putting people in the grave? That was their thing.

The trial's instruction was to just "punish Agatha"? That's oddly specific and pointed. Between this and the above point it feels like someone is mad at Agatha for killing lots of witches over the years. Some people like the Salem Seven.

The trials so far have tested the witch's ability in the craft (potion-making, protection) and how they work together. How does punishing or sacrificing Agatha align with the Road's test of "Burn and brew with coven true / And glory shall be thine" -- which we were just reminded of last week.

Why is Rio talking about slitting Agatha throat when we've been told she's can't kill her?

Jen calling and dismissing Billy as a familiar is... more mean-ness that I'd expect. You could make a case for her disliking Agatha, but the amount of venom here towards the boy surprisingly considering she was trying to watch out for him not too long ago.

Pretty much everything at the end after Billy snapping and going all dark and vengeful.

Ultimately we don't know what the Salem Seven can do. Sure they shriek like Nazgûl but turning into animals isn't the most threatening thing? So, bad writing and copium or is this show being truly tricksy and reality-bending?

[isagrimorie]

I was skeptical about Rio as Nicky's Other parent until the finale.

Until Agatha said this:

"I spoke no spell. I said no incantationn. You were made from scratch."

And then, Jen said:

"Green Craft is about the cycle of all living things. Growth and decay in constant flow."

Who else was Agatha hooking up with? Rio. I think Agatha spoke of wanting a child and we know how fast Rio folds whenever Agatha asks something of her.

I think unconsciously, Rio gave Agatha what she wanted.

And, when Rio realized what happened, she realized that no offspring born of her power should ever live or be known. So she came to take the baby from Agatha except Agatha begged. So Rio gave in again.

Gave her time with Nicky.

But also why Rio took Nicky in the dead of night when Agatha was asleep, so Agatha couldn't beg and bargain with Rio.

I do think Nicky also knew Rio because he was familiar with Rio when she took him. I think anytime Nicky was alone, and Agatha was away, Rio was around. But Agatha didn't know.

Agatha could have seen Nicky again in the after life, if she went on with Rio. Until Marvel disputes it, I think Nicky lives within Rio's domain. Just like Rio's brother, Eternity, has his own domain. I think Death has her own.

[violethowler]

Fellow AAA fans, am I alone in thinking that "Eddie" as a character name just sounds like the MCU removed the T from Teddy and we'll get the "Billy's boyfriend finds out he's Skrull Royalty" plot in a later MCU project?

[flurry-of-beaus-pop-pop]

Agatha All Along Finale Thoughts:

The Final Trial is Rio's:

First and foremost, there's the obvious... when they complete the trial in the tower and the door opens, the veins leading to the next trial are green (Rio's color as THE Green Witch) and there is a very clear "R" in one of those veins.

Beyond that, I think that for the purpose of this journey, Billy is serving as familiar (witch's companion) and is therefore, not being considered as a witch, which is why he himself does not have a trial.

When it comes to the focus of this trial, I think that it is going to, to some extent, revolve around Rio and having to put the job first over her own desire, having to hurt the people (Agatha) she loves to do the job, and learning how to find some sort of balance (while I don't think it will happen, this could be an interesting place to introduce Alice as a spirt, to explore how maybe, at times, if someone dies for the right reasons, they can be saved). Part of me that makes me think this may be the route this trial takes, is the fact that when Rio showed up at Agatha's house with pizza, she essentially made a statement about how women in powerful jobs don't have time for a personal life, and so for Rio to find some sort of balance between her job as Death and her life as Rio, would be so satisfying. (Alternatively, they may go the route of some sort of acceptance scenario, where Rio has to come to peace with what she has had to do, specifically regarding Agatha and Nicholas, but that's boring).

I also think that this is when we are going to see Alice again, that we will gain some insight into what Rio actually does once someone dies to potentially shed some more light on the internal battle she has.

The Final Trial is Also a Final Test For The Others:

While there are theories out there that when you accomplish and achieve what you sought on the road, you then die, this doesn't necessarily make sense in the grand scheme of things... why would you immediately die after being rewarded with something?

For most that walk the road, I think that the presence of Death is simply to be a motivator to keep them moving forward - "I stray not from the path, Death's hand in mind"; "a door appears, it's time to go" combined with Lilia's statement about how when you complete a trial, it's not a good idea to overstay your welcome, as terrible things happen - all of these point to their being a sense of moving forward, and making sure you don't stray from the path.

When it comes to this specific group, however, I think that Rio's presence as both a member of the coven as the Green Witch and Death itself, complicates things, especially if the focus of Rio's trial is her having to overcome something related to her being Death... based on the fact that Agatha, Jen, and Billy all wake up in body bags in what appears to be a morgue, I think that this is exactly what happens... that because Rio has to confront whatever issues her role as Death brings, Agatha, Jen, and Billy also have to confront Death, but I think their confrontation is going to be less about having to confront their mortality, and moreso having to confront the things they have not confronted yet, or be faced with the potential of death (i.e. stray not from the path, refusing to confront their issues is straying from the path).

So then what do each of them have to face?

Jen: While Jen has released herself from being bound and has her powers back, there's clearly a reluctance to fully embrace her powers to their fullest extent. We know that Lilia tells Jen that she is the path forward, and so I think that there is going to be an element of her confrontation with Rio that forces her to embrace her full potential to save herself, Agatha, and Billy, allowing her to successfully complete the road and escape it (ref: her climbing out of a hole in what appears to be Westview)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Billy: While Billy claims to be on the road with the intention of finding Tommy, I think his Tarot reading with Lilia reveals his true desire... to figure out whether or not he is Billy, William, or both. This aligns with the scene where Agatha is clutching his head. I believe that she is helping him merge his identities and that once he does, he will successfully complete the road and will be shunted out.

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Agatha: Nicholas, and reconciling what happened with her son and with Rio, is obviously what Agatha has to face. From episode one, it has been clear that she has been running from this, first in Rio quite literally accusing her of hiding behind dark magic, and then in the form of her continuing to refuse to talk about him, her seeing the Darkhold in his bassinet instead of him during the first trial, and his name being the final punishment in her trial.

Of course, because Agatha is Agatha, and because this is her television show, her portion of this test doesn't go as smoothly as the others. We see in the mid-season teaser, that the morgue-like room seems to collapse and/or some sort of magical effect happens. What this magical effect is, I'm not sure... it could be a product of Agatha refusing to face her issues, but it could also be the product of whatever Billy is doing in the picture of him standing on top of the door to the road, casting the hex - I'm still not entirely convinced that there is not some sort of twist involving Billy and that he is going to betray Agatha in some way, something like making her think he trust her so she helps him and lets him go first, and then he traps her in the road.

Regardless of why Agatha runs, what matters is that Agatha runs... the entire purpose of this final test is facing what you need to face, and so even if what she needs to face shifts to a degree, she still runs from it. This leads us to the next part of this episode... Agatha and Rio's confrontation...

Agatha and Rio's Confrontation

The powers that be, or at least those responsible for creating the teasers and releasing the promo pictures, are trying very hard to make it look like Rio is going to betray Agatha. I do not think that this is going to happen, at least not in the true sense of the word, because there is no reason for Rio to betray Agatha.

So what actually happens?

Well, I think the more likely scenario is that when Agatha runs (again), that pisses Rio off, because when all is said and done, Agatha refusing to acknowledge/confront what happened also means that Rio is unable to address it/receive any sort of closure over it, something that she very clearly still needs based on their fight in the first episode and the "she's my scar" conversation.

And so this causes them to fight - because let's be real, that's their love language - both quite literally forcing Agatha to have to face what she is running from in the form of the women she loves who took her son away and forcing Rio to face the fact that once again, she may have to hurt Agatha in order to do her job.

Ultimately, because I truly do not believe that Jac or those involved with this show, are looking for a devastating ending or are looking to kill off lesbians, they will achieve this understanding, allowing Rio to successfully achieve her trial, and allowing Agatha to get her full powers back and successfully leave the road.

The end?

Not quite yet... there's one more twist coming

The Actual Ending

While I am confident that there is going to be some sort of twist AFTER Rio's trial, I am back and forth between two potential scenarios:

Salem Seven: As pointed out by many ever since the end of episode 7, it appears as if only 5 of the 7 of the Salem Sisters died when Lilia flipped the tower. If this is the case, I believe that they could come back at the end, and that Rio and Agatha, or Rio, Agatha, Jen, and Billy, or any combination of the four, may have to face off against them, giving us that quintessential face off once they all have their powers - based on the fact that the Salem Seven were described as being a far bigger threat than they actually appeared to be and seemed to be killed off without any sort of fuss - I believe that this is the more likely scenario

Billy: There's just something off about Billy... and there are some things that are off about the road/things that have been hinted along the way that make me think that there might be some sort of twist coming in the form of either Billy creating/manipulating the road (i.e. it's exactly how I imagined it, taking notes in his spellbook on individual needing to be unbound before being bound again, the emphasis on revenge and betrayal, his unwillingness to believe/trust Agatha) OR Billy making the decision to attempt to trap Agatha on the road (i.e. the image of him casting a hex on the door of the road) - if this is the case, I think that once Agatha does get out of the road (because let's face it, Billy's powers are no comparison to Agatha's), there. may be some sort of battle between him and Agatha, mirroring the final battle between Wanda and Agatha in Wandavision... how this resolves itself, I'm not sure, but could see any combination of scenarios including Billy fleeing, Billy or Agatha being trapped again (because literally the idea of Westview thinking they are finally free only for them not to be is hilarious), Agatha and Rio being trapped together (I think this is highly unlikely but would be a really good way to give us that domestic Agathario spinoff!)

The End... For Real!

But no, please read this and please come talk to me about your thoughts because it took me two hours to put this together and it will be sad if no one talks to me about it 😂