#again I am thinking about how Ruyi depicts a whole cast of women without agency striving to make the best and worst of their circumstances

[tavina-writes]

I am thinking about this and trying to put it into words, because hm, okay, so I came to MDZS/CQL right off of my Minglan-Yanxi-Ruyi era which are predominantly female character driven plots and have large sprawling casts of very interested and diverse women (there's like, and I joke about this a lot, 2.5 men you have to regularly think about in Yanxi and they're optional, so Yanxi is TRULY like the opposite of danmei) and the "where are the women" hit me in the face like a brick. Not that like, I haven't vibed with a story that doesn't have a lot of women in it, and not bc I don't recognize that like, danmei is a genre about mlm which does cut down on the amount of spotlight time women can have, but yeah, like anon says it feels...strange that despite the cool hints we get about these female characters, fandom isn't really interested in writing them in particularly nuanced ways.

Like, I joke about wanting the period drama arranged marriage of my dreams and having to write it myself a lot, but hmmm idk, I think those would be interesting things to explore in the world of mdzs bc they clearly did happen (see the previous generation of parents or XuanLi) and I would like to explore that happening in this generation! Idk!

(Something about my thoughts on this also rotates on the axis of "despite what we know canonically about these two women, Meng-shi is so often depicted as a sexy murder lady when nothing about her canonical description says she even LIKED the idea of being sexy or murderous, and Madam Lan is so often depicted as virtuous and loving the arts and gentle and not at all murderous when one of the ONLY things we know about her is that she canonically murdered a Lan who was QHJ's teacher." where a lot of even background mentions of women in fic tends to...warp? the scant few details we get of canonical background character women.)

Actually I find very fitting how women are treated in mdzs. Mdzs's world is homophobic, classicist and misogynistic. Imo Mdzs's world represents the worst of the real world, so I find very suitable that in a patriarch/misogyny society where reputation is what matter the most, women payed the consequences of men's choices. The fact that they have no agency makes their stories even more tragic (like Greek heroines) imo. I've read historical novels from a very youth age, so I am accustomed to this. (disclaimer : that doesn't mean that I am not frustrated with the narrative or our assholes as wwx wn etc... ). What makes me very upset is how fans treat mdzs's women! Wq is not a Mean Lesbian, who is just wwx's best friend. jyl is not just wwx's mom or, even worst, a badass kickass (she is ill! She can't cultivate! Madam yu would love to have a badass daughter, but she can't! She has a chronic illness!!! ). And madam yu reminds me so much of Medea but she doesn't have the same hype. These women are trapped two times : firstly by the narrative and then by fans and I find myself less tolerant towards the latter

When I saw this ask yesterday, my gut response to the comparison between Greek tragedies and MDZS was to be like "no!! it's not the same!!" But I couldn't immediately identify why I felt that way. All the works that have given me lasting brainworms are historical tragedies with mostly-male casts and moral complexity. Everything I vibe with can be traced in some way back to getting fixated on the Trojan War, MDZS/CQL included. So what's different? I have been pondering it ever since then. So thank you, anon, for making me think!

For me, I think what it comes down to is that the issues you mentioned--the classism, the homophobia, and the misogyny--aren't actually explored within the text itself. The in-universe homophobia primarily manifests itself as people saying slurs at Wangxian. There is no external pressure to enter into heterosexual unions and have children to ensure a line of succession (3/4 of the sect leaders are unmarried after the timeskip, after all), nor is there the internal conflict of unpacking internalized homophobia. Classism is examined more with JGY's whole deal, but when the only character pointing out the flaws in the status quo is the Crimes Man, it muddles the message somewhat.

As to the misogyny... with the notable exception of QS, none of the women in MDZS die for reasons that relate to in-universe inequality. YZY, A-Qing, WQ, and JYL all die making the active choice to protect someone or something. Taken individually, all of their deaths make sense. The problems is when you take them as a whole, and you realize that the mortality rate for women in the series is off the chain. Below is a list of all the named characters who show up for more than one scene in MDZS. Bolded characters live, struck-through characters die.

Wei Wuxian Jiang Yanli Jiang Cheng                 Yu Ziyuan Jiang Fengmian           Wen Qing Lan Wangji  Granny Wen Lan Xichen                   Wang Lingjiao Lan Qiren                     Madame Jin Lan Jingyi                     Qin Su Lan Sizhui                   Luo Qingyang Wen Ning                      A-Qing Wen Chao                                            Wen Ruohan                                         Wen Zhuliu Jin Zixuan Jin Ling                                               Jin Guangshan                                                Jin Zixun Jin Guangyao Nie Mingjue Nie Huaisang Xue Yang Xiao Xingchen Song Lan Su Minshan Ouyang Zizhen Sect Leader Ouyang Sect Leader Yao

That's bonkers! It's even worse if you don't count the dead characters who quote-unquote "deserved it" for murdering people, which changes the list to:

Wei Wuxian Jiang Yanli Jiang Cheng                 Yu Ziyuan Jiang Fengmian           Wen Qing Lan Wangji  Granny Wen Lan Xichen                   Madame Jin Lan Qiren                     Qin Su Lan Jingyi                     Luo Qingyang Lan Sizhui                   A-Qing Wen Ning                       Jin Zixuan Jin Ling                                               Nie Mingjue Nie Huaisang Xiao Xingchen Song Lan Ouyang Zizhen Sect Leader Ouyang Sect Leader Yao

Again, the women's deaths each make sense individually, but as a trend, it's fucking wild, and that's what bothers me. There's no actual honest-to-god plot reason why the ratio has to be this way. Why can't Lan Qiren be a strict auntie? Why can't the juniors be a mixed-gender group? Additionally, there's the matter of how the deaths are treated. NMJ's death is the entire reason for the book; JZX's memory is invoked as much as JYL's. It's not that bad things happen to the women, it's that they're unnecessarily killed off at a disproportionate amount.

ALL THAT SAID. ALL THAT SAID!! You're absolutely right about fan treatment. One would think that these interesting women who don't get to take center stage in canon (and thus have a lot left to explore!) would be a GOLDMINE, but instead they're sanded down like you said. It must be ROUGH trying to find fic about JYL in particular, because so much of what she's tagged in is just her being WWX's Gentle Soup Sister in the background. Wangxian is far and away the biggest pairing WQ's tag--not just for MDZS, but for The Untamed, where she's a much bigger character! I sense that you're more charitable towards the canons than I am, anon, but at least the canons are honest about what they're about and aren't patting themselves on the back for their super progressive inclusion of a Mean Lesbian Friend or whatever.