#You're literally called all three terms we have for the horned people at some point. Qunari/tal-vashoth/vashoth.

[exhausted-archivist]

On the topic of the inherent racism in the Qun and its people, with how baked in racism is, you can't buff it out and reformat. You can't remove it, and BioWare has only been doubling down on it up to Tevinter Nights in 2020. Which means you need to be careful with how you interact and build on it. At least that is how I approach it, in general I don't like to engage with it because it's just so difficult and not in any thought provoking or insightful way. So I refrain from doing so as much as possible in public spaces anyways, because it is so inherently unsafe for me to do so. From an interaction with fandom level, but also on a personal level because some of it makes me want to crawl out of my skin.

I am extremely weary of how da4 is going to portray them, I hope it will be better since the writing team has been moved around and there have been some acknowledgements on poor writing of stereotypes and biases in 2020. Which I take with a salt mine worth of salt, especially with the way the new comics like the Missing having lingering themes and stereotypes remaining. How Patrick Weekes described the rebelling antaam in Three Trees to Midnight (Tevinter Nights 2020) was the biggest red flag, followed by the yellow flag from As We Fly short story by Lukas Kristjanson (short story 2023).

With how BioWare has racism and harmful elements baked into the Qun and people in general it is going to difficult for them to fully separate it, update it, or reformat it. But I hope they do. I hope that they actually attempt to make it better like they have suggested they would. Because it is so harmful and they should. I don't think they'll get it right on the first try, but I hope they try. It won't magically fix the racism in the fandom but I would like to not feel the need to crawl out of my skin when playing a vashoth. I would like to see the franchise grow and become better than it started out as. I don't want it to stay stagnant for the sake of "consistency" which it doesn't have by design.

[creature-wizard]

...Okay so, I didn't notice this at first, but the list that Schnoebelen gives is actually different from the one posted on the site I linked. So for reference, here's the version Schnoebelen quotes in his book:

Witches do not do evil. They believe that doing evil and harm is against the Universal Law. Witchcraft tells us, “An it harm none, do what ye will.”

Witches do not worship Satan. They do not have a Satan in their deity structure.

Witches wear clothing of every style and color. They come from every socio-economic and ethnic background…

A male Witch is not a warlock. This was a term used by Christians during the “Burning Time” to designate male Witches.

Witches do use spells. A spell is a thought, a projection, a prayer or an enchantment. Other religions use prayer, meditation, projection or ritual to produce an intended result. The word ‘spell’ does not equate with doing evil or harm.

Witches do use magic wands… they are used for directing energy, as in healing…

Witches do use Witchcraft as a Science, an Art and a Religion. They use their knowledge and magic in harmony with the Universe and Nature around them. The word ‘magic’ comes from the Greek word ‘magi’ meaning ‘wise. In the origins of many languages, the word ‘Witch’ was part of a constellation of words for ‘wise’ or ‘wise ones.’…

In Witchcraft as a Science, we view the pentacle as the golden section, a geometric shape and a talisman. In the Religion of Witchcraft, the circle surrounding the star represents God/Goddess — the total intelligence refracting and reflecting all light. Light gives us wisdom. The five pointed star (pentagram) represents the human body and the earth. In combination, the star surrounded by the circle represents the human body surrounded by the protection of the God/Goddess force. The pentacle is the symbol for Universal Wisdom.

Witches do concern themselves with Ecology…”

He claims that he quoted this from the Witches’ League for Public Awareness tract, which was apparently printed in 1988.

So, next, he claims that Laurie Cabot is in denial about witches worshiping Satan, because Satan and the Horned God have so much in common. The items he lists:

Both are lords of death — and the source of death.

Both rule in an “underworld” kingdom of some sort.

Both represent bestiality and untrammeled lasciviousness.

Both are known as Lucifer in some circles. 6

Both are believed to be the source of Light.

Both demand commitment by oaths and covenants.

Both seek to draw their worshipers away from the Bible’s God.

So, regarding item one - the Horned God relates to the cycle of the year. Of course death is involved, because have you ever seen what happens in autumn and winter, Bill? God that has something to do with death =/= Satan.

Regarding item two - an underworld kingdom is kind of a natural association for earthly fertility deities, ya dingus.

Regarding item three, see: the entire concept of fertility deities.

Regarding item four - according to whom? And why should their opinions matter any more than any other oddball with a fringe opinion in the witchcraft community?

Regarding item five - Schnoebelen is citing Aradia: The Gospel of the Witches, which... while influential on Wicca and the neopagan movement, isn't exactly a central text for most people. Just because some people in "some circles" are calling the Horned God "Lucifer" because of this, doesn't mean that it's the Horned God's "true" identity.

Regarding item six, this is partly because Wicca was modeled after conspiracy theories about what witches did back during the witch trials. This is because Wicca was taking cues from Margaret Murray, who believed that the "witches" were actually cryptopagans worshiping a pre-Christian deity. Also, oaths and covenants have existed in many traditions (including Christianity), and so their existence doesn't make Wicca "satanic."

Regarding item seven - you're literally just whining about other religions having the nerve to exist, dude.

Next he tries to be like "Nuh-uh! You're wrong!" over Laurie Cabot's assertion that male witches are not warlocks. And like, sure dude, it's valid to point out that there were magical practitioners of the time actually calling themselves warlocks, but the core issue isn't "Laurie Cabot is lying!", it's "Laurie Cabot is making presumptuous statements about other magical practitioners."

Regarding spells, Schnoebelen claims:

It is the ethical difference between asking God to relieve you of a repressive husband under whom you must live and going up to the man and blowing his brains out with a pistol.

Buddy, if there's a chance that your god might maneuver someone into a severe automobile accident, the difference isn't as big as you claim. The way you talk about the alleged outcome of Bank Lady's prayers, praying to God is basically playing Russian roulette. According to you, all the lady did was pray for you in the name of Jesus and the next thing that happens is God arranges serious violence. Just because you outsource the responsibility, doesn't mean you don't bear that responsibility. Personally, I don't think I could feel comfortable praying to a god who might commit severe violence on a number of people when literally all I wanted was for them to give one person a little nudge in a positive direction.

Because if you aim a gun at a person and pull the trigger and the gun does not discharge because you failed to realize it wasn’t loaded, you are still guilty of the intention of murder! The court would still convict you of attempted murder.

Says the man who sees nothing wrong with playing Russian roulette with somebody else's head.

Oh and if you're wondering why your spells aren't working, Schnoebelen has an answer: Jesus!

You might ask, “If Wicca is so dangerous and is run by demon power as you say, why doesn’t it work all the time?” The answer to that, my friends, is that there is another “Game” in town. Jesus Christ is infinitely more powerful than the “Old Gods” of Wicca, and He can intervene whenever it suits His sovereign purposes.

So you're saying that sometimes it suits Jesus's ~sovereign purposes~ to interfere with a college student's "help me get a job so I can survive this capitalist hellscape" spell? If so, I think Jesus needs to sit down and reassess his sovereign purposes. Honestly Bill, you really make it sound like God and Jesus need to sit down and learn about the concept of "the ends don't justify the means."

Next, Schnoebelen tries to demonize Cabot talking about the light in item 8, because light is Lucifer is satanic!!! Because it's not as if "light" is a common term/metaphor when talking about knowledge and wisdom in general, that extends well outside of Christianity. Basically, he's making tinfoil hat reaches here.

Next he talks about witches (Wiccans/neopagan witches, of course) who vehemently tried to distance themselves from satanists (as a lot of them did as a direct consequence of the Satanic Panic), and to refute them, brings up...

Mike Warnke.

If you've been keeping up, you know that Mike Warnke is an exposed fraud. If not, you can read the Cornerstone Magazine article on him here. The TL;DR is that Mike Warnke was a guy who claimed he'd become a satanist in college, discovered that satanism was part of a world-controlling conspiracy, committed a lot of SRA, got kicked out over a drug overdose, and found Jesus. "Claimed" is the operative word, because when the people who knew him at the time were actually interviewed, they all called bullshit - but did mention that Warnke loved to tell tall tales about himself.

At this point I have to wonder, just how much are these people aware that the others are all frauds? Does each one think that they're the only fraud and it's just luck that nobody else catches them on it? Or do they have some sort of mutual understanding and just support each others' lies and scams because calling out the others would attract too much scrutiny to themselves, and the entire house of cards would come down? Like, what's going on here?

People can, of course, go from Wicca to some form of Satanic spirituality, but William "Bill" Schnoebelen claimed that Wicca was actually created to recruit naive spiritual seekers and gradually indoctrinate them into the beliefs of a worldwide Satanic conspiracy.

In Wicca: Satan's Little White Lie, he tries to present himself as an innocent man seduced into dark powers, but the way he actually talks about himself, it sounds more like he just wanted power and would go along with pretty much anything so long as it seemed to offer more power.

So now he's claiming that Wiccans who desired "more wisdom" would be taught that the Horned God was actually Lucifer, and from there be led into LaVeyan Satanism, and from there, be led into "hardcore" satanism; IE, conspiracy theory satanism.

He claims that:

The man who was my immediate superior was a strange, but powerful satanist from Chicago with all sorts of connections in politics and industry. I was amazed at the people of power I would meet at the sabbats.

I figured I had it made and my ship was finally coming in. I signed a pact in my own blood with Satan. He received complete control of my body and soul. In return, I got seven years of whatever I desired: money, sex, drugs or power! It could all be mine!

Familiar fairy tale trope is familiar, lol

Then, Schnoebelen claims that he'd sent a check in to the Church of Satan, and it came back with the words "I'll be praying for you in Jesus's name" written on it. And apparently he knows it's a woman's handwriting because it was "delicate and feminine."

And then he claims:

Within days, things began to happen. I lost my job, my wife got sick, I got sick, and my satanic mentor, so powerful and self-assured, got in a serious truck accident and ended up in the hospital with grievous abdominal injuries. His previously limitless supply of money from California dried up, and I was effectively cut off from all my powerful new contacts.

I'm sorry... what? That's... that's awfully vicious behavior for the deity who's supposed to have the moral high ground, my dude. Are you saying that all this lady did was pray for you, and God just chose violence?

Later, Schnoebelen claims:

Much of my personal story as contained in chapter one is radically different from the current public relations image being promoted in the media by witches and Neo-Pagans.

Like the PR material for any deceptive religious cult, they wish to present as positive an image as possible. They deal in non-issues rather than the central points which really matter in an eternal perspective.

Goddamnit, this is another one of those things where the Christians act offended because the people who aren't Christian don't subscribe to the whole "you need a savior to save you from your sins" thing, isn't it?

Anyway, Schnoebelen quotes Laurie Cabot's list of Witches' Do's and Don'ts, and proceeds to gripe and complain that witches aren't actually morally pure as all that.

Again, we're dealing with a relatively new spiritual movement where people are bound to make idealistic statements that won't hold up upon meeting the complexity of the real world, or that people just won't always live up to because people aren't perfect. And quite frankly, Christianity is no different; y'all have your high-minded ideals, but in the day-to-day you make a lot of concessions and compromises. And you have to, because your survival depends on it. You can't always give your boss your "honest opinion," and it's not prudent to give away everything you own.

What about magic? As I mentioned in my own story, the ethics get a bit nebulous when you decide if you’re going to heal someone without their permission, or do a love spell on a person without their knowledge. You see, this is all so vague it is meaningless. Suppose you have a relative with Alzheimer’s disease. Would it be alright to put a spell on him to kill him and “put him out of his misery?”

Some witches would say yes, others would say no. To whom do we turn to settle these things? In some older witch traditions, being a homosexual was a “no-no,” yet other newer witch groups celebrate “gayness.” Did they get a direct line from the “Universal Law” to change the rules? Is it alright to cheat on your “lady?” If she doesn’t know, she isn’t harmed, is she? You see how misguided and useless this kind of ethical system is? It allows for all manner of exploitation and evil, and believe me - I knew some awfully selfish and exploitative “Wiccans” in my day. One of them stole my high priestess’ wedding and engagement rings!

Man, if only there were people who ask these hard questions and search for ways to deal with these issues without appealing to a higher authority... if only people had been interested in wrangling such things since ancient times... if only there were such things as philosophers and ethicists... if only...

By the way, Bill, if Christians are supposed to be all loving and harmless, is it correct to pray for someone knowing that your god might likely inflict violence on them? Is that really any better or different than straight-up siccing a violent demon on them?

And then Bill claims this about the Threefold Law:

For example, if you perceive that someone has injured you in some fashion, either magically or physically, you have the “right” by Witch Law to hurt him three times worse. What often happens is that witches are injured in some real or imagined way and believe they have the right to hex the offending person three times worse!

This is literally not what the Threefold Law is about. The Threefold Law is one of those kinda culturally Christian "what goes around, comes around" kind of deals. Retaliation isn't supposed to be necessary because the universe will supposedly hurt the original dickbag three times worse.

He claims that a young woman stole the HP's jewelry, and the HP "invoked the law of three" and supposedly, the young woman fell down a stairs and was paralyzed from the neck down:

We did not curse her and say, “Goddess, make her fall down a flight of stairs and be paralyzed.” We just invoked this “Law” upon her. To end up a paralytic for life for ripping off jewelry is a bit severe. This was done when I believed I was a “white” witch and would never have considered cursing someone or seeking power from the devil.

Dude... may I remind you of what you claimed happened when Bank Lady prayed to Jesus? Literally how are Christians any better, in your reckoning?

Schnoebelen claims that magical fights will inevitably escalate and may I remind you, Schnoebelen, that Evangelical Christians see themselves as being in the middle of a spiritual war, waged against everyone who isn't like them. You, Schnoebelen, apparently believe it's justified for Christians to pray to Jesus to inflict violence on anyone who isn't a Christian. The crowd you're appealing to prays for horrible things to happen to everyone they've made their enemies every day. The crowd you're appealing to thought AIDS was God's punishment on the gays.

You don't have the moral ground you want everyone to think you have.