#Vile that you could say that degrading stuff about a whole woman who’s never done shit to you

[aeolianblues]

incredible how the Venn diagram of ‘gold star lesbians’, biphobes, transphobes, gender ‘critical’ (but no critical thinking unfortunately) people, and the most vile woman haters is basically a perfect circle

Edit: oh and also they need a job. God knows they need a way of passing 16 hours a day, the unemployment must make them insane

[inevitably-johnlocked]

Hi, I was "arguing" with my friend the other day about Mary. I mentioned all that "She was manipulative and her jumping in front of that bullet isn't possible and should not have redeemed her etc. She argued back that Sherlock is/can also be highly manipulative and has also killed people and lied etc. Any tips for a counter argument? Thanks :)

Hi Lovely!

Hmm, this is a tough thing to debate, and it completely depends upon how you view / read each of their actions and all their motives for what they have done. I think it all boils down to exactly that: their motives. WHY did they do what they did? 

I’m not going to spout about why Mary is literally the worst here, since I’ve gone on ad nauseum about how she is not a very good person at all, but in a nutshell, Mary’s motives are all self-serving: 

an assassin for money for years prior to meeting John; 

shot Sherlock to keep John for herself, then returns to finish the job when she finds out he didn’t die, because John was straying from the relationship, and knew that John was hers when he was grieving, which made it easier to gaslight and demean him; 

belittles and degrades John and Sherlock constantly (TEH, TSo3, HLV, T6T), essentially establishing that they are nothing without her (T6T, TLD, TFP) and spouts the message that who they are don’t matter, that it’s just the cases that make them worthy of anything; 

controls Sherlock and John’s relationship (”I’ll talk him ‘round”), inserting herself as the arbiter of when they can see each other, even when  “dead”; 

manipulates John into proposing to her; 

lies about who she is for the ENTIRE time she’s with John, even though she knows who he is and would have understood, but when she’s found out, she demanded Sherlock not tell John because she didn’t want to lose him, not because John would be hurt;

leaves her husband and newborn child to go on a world tour because she’s worried SHE will be hurt but also because she wanted to play with an old team mate;

still manipulates and gaslights John and Sherlock even when she’s dead, essentially, once again, establishing that she thinks that they can’t do anything without her.

In contrast, Sherlock’s motives are SELF-SACRIFICING, always doing things either for the greater good or to make John happy:

In ASiP, it boils down to him taking in John initially because, I think, he knew John was suicidal and knew what he needed to feel like he was useful. It’s a relationship that inevitably helps both of them. Sherlock saw himself in John, and that troubled him enough to befriend a broken soldier, and later would do anything for to protect him.

TBB, Sherlock genuinely was worried about Soo Lin, and was happy that the secretary was able to claim the reward for the pin. We also see hints that Sherlock doesn’t do the jobs for the money, but because JOHN needed the money. He also panicked when John was kidnapped and was gentle with Sarah when he rescued them.

In TGG, while he did manipulate people to get what he needed, it was so he could solve the crimes that were presented to him. Admittedly, he WAS doing it to appease his need to solve crimes, but in the end, solving crimes HELPS people, which helps also himself. He was visibly shaken when the old woman was blown up. And then when he realizes that Moriarty was doing what he was doing for shits and giggles and tried to woo Sherlock to his side, Sherlock was terrified for John, and angry at Moriarty for endangering lives. He was willing to sacrifice his own life to end Moriarty’s tyranny.

ASiB, Sherlock goes to Belarus because John asks him to, even though he probably knows that the man is guilty (essentially willing to hear him out). He defends Mrs Hudson from the agents and from Mycroft, and then proceeds to state how important she is in his life. Yes, he is petty to John’s girlfriends, but that’s his own jealousy (which, you know, EVERYONE HAS so this cannot be a slight against him). When he offended and embarrassed Molly, he immediately apologizes. Despite how she treated Sherlock the whole episode (and how upset with her he is), he still goes to rescue Irene because he doesn’t think she deserved to die.

THoB, he essentially takes John on a holiday and helps Henry Knight because he can see he’s truly troubled (and I want to also say he may also see a bit of himself or John in Henry). When he knew he erred, Sherlock sought out John to apologize to him and confessed how much he means to Sherlock. Don’t get me wrong, I also think it was terrible of Sherlock to drug John and attempt to induce terror in him just to see what would happen, but in a weird way he did it to prove that Henry was not crazy (essentially, for the greater good).

TRF, Sherlock is bothered that John is bothered about his name being smeared, and long-short of it, he jumped to save those he loved. Yes it was terrible of him to make people think he was dead, but it was what Sherlock thought was the only way to keep everyone safe – he willingly went into torturous exile to save John and his closest friends, and yes, he did use Molly because he knew her crush on him would ensure she would do anything for him, but he wouldn’t have done this if he didn’t have faith in her skills and trust.

MHR, we learn he made a video for John’s birthday, which we get some insight into his state of mind during it – essentially, it’s his message thanking John for not making him spend time with people because it makes him uncomfortable.

TEH, Sherlock returns, thinking just him living again will make John happy. When he realizes his grievous error, Sherlock spends the rest of his time trying to figure out how he can make everything better. Yes, he does manipulate John at the end into forgiving him, BUT John knows it’s their way of doing things, and understands what Sherlock really is apologizing for. Also: He tells Molly how much he appreciates what she did for him, the underlying message being “thank you for keeping John safe”. He spares some time to play board games with his brother in a quiet moment of domesticity. He knows Anderson probably blames himself for Sherlock’s death / disappearance, so he humours him with an interview and he has become important enough in his life to remember his name.

TSo3, essentially the WHOLE EPISODE is Sherlock doing everything in his power to do what he thinks will make John happy. He sacrifices his own happiness to do what he thinks is “the right thing”. Mary takes advantage of his emotional instability to essentially make Sherlock think he is insignificant in John’s life, which in turn makes Sherlock “give John up” more without a fight. He also helps Janine get a date.

HLV, oh boy, here we go: YES, Sherlock manipulates Janine to get what he NEEDS to get for a case to help Lady Smallwood, though there is speculation that it was actually a mutual agreement between her and Sherlock (he helps her get out, she helps him get in, though there’s MORE speculation that she also worked with Mary). Sherlock gets shot because he offered to help Mary; In his own mind, he worried about the people in his life who would mourn him, and inevitably forced himself to live because John was in danger; Sherlock, when he was in immense pain and bleeding internally, knew John would not believe him about Mary unless John saw it for himself, so he made sure to include John in the reveal of Mary (essentially John’s feelings the entire time); he kills Magnussen for John, knowing that it will sacrifice his life and never seeing John again, all because he thinks it will keep John safer for him to be with Mary than without (I speculate he fears Mary will kill John instead if she can’t have him).

Okay, admittedly I haven’t watched S4 enough to remember and add stuff here, but assuming S4 is real and not fake, Sherlock pretty much does everything in the first two eps for John, although in T6T he was ooc and essentially made John feel like he wasn’t worth anything important... Mary only exacerbated all of this, and in TLD he wants to take down a vile vile man because he was against his morals. TFP is sort of the only one I think he’s really the worst in, because why the hell would he deny JOHN over a “sister” he never remembered? Anyway. John is family, he doesn’t want to kill his brother, and I don’t even know, LOL. Oh, and he is clearly an active part in “baby Watson’s” life and baby-proofed his entire flat just for her. S4 is hard to state anything because ALL the characters are complete mirror opposites of who they actually were in previous seasons, and if this is the season your friend is judging everything on, tell them it makes no sense to the current narrative, and show them all the above evidence as proof. 

Anyway, just a few things, sorry I’m not much help. ;) May have missed a few things.

Long-short of it, Mary is selfish, Sherlock is selfless.

Good luck, Lovely