#Vaemond’s public execution by DAEMON?

[viiisenyas]

oh god, it’s been a long time since I touched any of my asoiaf fics, but I shit you not, I’m just gonna change history and make it to where the Velaryons sit out the fucking Dance just so they can be rich as shit come 298 AC just for funsies.

[atopvisenyashill]

This is just a thought experiment because I always toy with what-ifs like this and dabble in exploring it through fic, so I come to you because you understand the world better...

What could have happened (show events obviously) if, on hearing that Daemon and Rhaenyra got married and suspecting them of conspiring to murder Laenor, Rhaenys went to Viserys (privately) and threatened to publicly accuse Daemon and Rhaenyra of the murder as well as disinheriting all of Rhaenyra's sons from the Driftmark line of succession IF Viserys didn't a) dissolve or undo the marriage, b) banish Daemon and c) give House Velaryon custody of Baela and Rhaena? And she has Corlys's support in all of this, she's not doing it behind his back. She's just taking the lead.

that's interesting.

because okay. having a bunch of velaryons get their tongues ripped out is one thing. but the kinslaying thing is serious here, and rhaenys is also much smarter than the silent five - she's not waiting years to do this, and she's talking to him privately rather than calling Rhaenyra a whore in public (and like. sidebar bitching but i see people say like "they added vaemond calling her a whore to-" yeah yeah sure but the thing is no matter how he phrases it, he's implying she's a whore guys. why do we keep forgetting that they're all implying that she's a treasonous whore in public jfc). rhaenys & corlys are also the main branch which is more than you can say for vaemond and his family - they're not jockeying to become the main branch, they're pretty rightly annoyed by how the main velaryon branch has been treated by their overlords. big difference here in approach to the problem.

hmmm. so several things. firstly, if rhaenys approaches this more as "fuck daemon" i do think she's likely to get more traction there than if she approaches it as "fuck daemon and FUCK your daughter too." she's also just making a smarter argument - not "give me driftmark over rhaenyra's kids" (which is stupid) but "i think daemon & rhaenyra murdered my goddamn son" (which is a legit reason to be upset). i think if she brings this less as a conspiracy and has a bit of proof - or "proof" as it were - that might help as well. ALSO also the fact that she's not moving to disinherit the boys - she's saying she'll let them stay in the line of succession BUT she wants the girls, and she wants daemon gone. really framing this not as a move against rhaenyra (and therefore against viserys) but as a move against daemon. i mean take otto for an example - because he frames the brothel escapade as somehting bad rhaenyra has done, viserys goes on the defensive immediately. here, because rhaenys isn't clearly jockeying to get rhaenyra disinherited, he might not react badly.

HOWEVER. Viserys is known for reacting badly when it comes to Rhaenyra! He takes it as an insult to himself (he's not wrong) or questioning of his judgement (again, not wrong). And of course he's particularly defensive about the kids because of the implication that Rhaenyra is committing high treason and should be executed for it. Because Rhaenys comes at this not from the PoV of "disinherit Rhaenyra for Aegon" or even "disinherit Lucerys for Baela/Rhaena" but solely on a "get Daemon OUT OF MY HOUSE and give me my granddaughters" she can really stick to her guns there that she's not saying anything about Viserys' judgement or Rhaenyra's. But I mean she is saying something about Rhaenyra's judgement inherently here by implying Rhaenyra had a hand in Laenor's death.

When you look at the Driftmark brawl, or the final dinner, in general what Viserys wants is for people to stop fighting with him. And considering Viserys is not particularly pleased with the Daemyra marriage in book canon (until, iirc, they have a kid and then like any grandpa/uncle he's just kind of happy they're having babies), and we get that time skip so we don't know for sure how Viserys reacts + Daemon rejects Viserys' offer to come home at Laena's funeral....see, I think he'd play ball with the Daemon exiling but once she mentions the boys he's going to get defensive and tongue chopping happy. especially post driftmark brawl, where he's prickly about the boys - it's possible he says something like "well if you want custody of the girls why don't you want custody of lucerys, he IS corlys' heir after all" and depending on how she responds to that, she might get what she want - which is Daemon exiled and custody of the girls - or he might bar her from the capital, which is going to kick off a minor political crisis.

[ladymorghul]

I know how this might sound, but I feel like the writing sort of validated takes like: her children were never in any real danger, it was all manufactured by Otto, or that Alicent has been unreasonable this whole time. Others have said this but the reconciliation was not a good writing choice. From my understanding, the last time the Greens and Blacks see each other is after Driftmark, after Aemond is permanently disfigured and disabled, after Viserys made it very clear that he would cover for Rhaenyra's treason, going so far as to yell at Aegon (who had nothing to do with the fight, but he couldn't even bother to reprimand Luc or Jace), after Rhaenyra herself suggested Aemond be tortured and pushed Alicent until she snapped. During those ten years Rhaenyra married Daemon, who was Public Enemy #1 (it wasn't just Otto who suggested Viserys make Rhaeneyra heir, it was the entire council because they didn't want Daemon near the throne), and Viserys slowly dying, basically a countdown to the inevitable war. 

When they reunite Vaemond is executed for voicing the exact same concerns (having him call Rhaenyra a whore was to soften Daemon's reaction, I refuse to believe that Vaemond is that stupid when he saw how far Viserys is willing to go to protect Rhaenyra at Driftmark) Alicent has had since Otto's dismissal and no one is punished, instead there's a big happy meal and wait, it turns out that Alicent has been unreasonable this whole time. That it was all in her head, her paranoia created and fed by Otto. So about 20 years worth of terror, Alicent pushing and punishing Aegon for not assuming his responsibility as heir...were all for nothing, smoothed over by a toast? Good queen? Girl, where, when??

The prophecy was dumb. It feels like that was just inserted to 1) keep the plot going because no, Alient's fears aren't valid, all she has to do is accept Rhaenyra as queen and everything's going to be okay (making Alicent more sympathetic to audiences because again, there's no other reason Alicent would want to crown Aegon, even though the prophecy makes her look dumb instead), and 2) it takes away from Aegon's storyline and the family tragedy as a whole. Before episodes 8-10, it felt like the Green family tragedy is that they all step into roles to protect one another: Alicent may not want to crown her son (imo Alicent comes off as someone who doesn't want power) but has to protect him and his siblings, Aegon doesn't want to be king but does so to protect his family, Aemond probably doesn't like Aegon but he'll fight and defend him to the end (it all goes horribly wrong but still). Now the dance is all about a prophecy, about men stealing the crown from the rightful heir, erasing the socio-political implications of Rhaenyra's ascension??? This isn't Shakespearian smh. 

This is getting long but lastly, Otto scheming to kill Rhaenyra was dumb. He's never really had a problem with Rhaenyra, his problem has always been with Daemon. Killing her, Daemon's wife and mother of his children, is basically unleashing him. The Green Council should have been the council talking about the politics, why the realm, if they accept a woman on the throne, would not accept bastards inheriting over true-born children and Aegon & his family. No gross feet scene (why, why do that to both actors?), no trying to force this "men = bad, women = good" shallow depiction of the patriarchy, and no Rhaenys. 

i agree with almsot everything you said here except for the depiction of patriarchy.

it is important to show that while rhaenyra may be spoiled, may be politically struggling, may lack this skill or that skill (which has happened with plenty of ruling male monarchs), a huge reason why she's being fought against is because she is a woman.

it's why viserys is chosen over rhaenys, why corlys gives driftmark to laenor, etc.

i don't think the green council should necessarily have sounded like some pompous sociopolitical class on why they're better for putting aegon on the throne, but i do wish the writers would understand that alicent had every right to push for what she believed is her own best interest, regardless of whether that would be wrong or right.

by that point in the story alicent had every reason to fear rhaenyra and daemon and if the weird reconcilliation at the dinner scene would be deleted, just those few minutes, all the greens should be scared of what daemon and rhaenyra might do.

and yeah i agree about the prophecy... they could have worked it into a story without it seeming like that's the only reason alicent pushes aegon to be king. they should have given her more agency.

i bet she will go down as one of the most hated female characters just for how they decided to shape her for rhaenyra's story.

[captainswanapproved]

An Indecent Proposal- Chapter 18

A03,Prologue, Chapter 1,Chapter 2,Chapter 3, Chapter 4,Chapter 5,Chapter 6,Interlude,Chapter 7,Chapter 8,Chapter 9,Chapter 10,Chapter 11,Chapter 12, Chapter 13, Chapter 14, Chapter 15, Chapter 16, Chapter 17,

Daemon x Rhaenyra Multichapter AU:

Daemon leaves Rhaenyra at her wedding feast. Rhaenyra marries Laenor. After a year of trying to do their duty and produce an heir, Rhaenyra writes to Daemon.

She needs a true Targaryen heir.

It only needs to be an arrangement of business, she says. And it would result in Daemon’s child one day taking the Iron Throne.

Daemon accepts the proposal and returns to court.

Only, ventures like these are never simple. As much as they would wish to, Daemon and Rhaenyra cannot let go of the past, or the feelings they once had for each other.

123 AC

Rhaenyra Targaryen snuggled against her husband’s warm body, sleepy, sated, and more than a little bruised. She and Daemon liked it rough on occasion. Daemon’s execution of Vaemond Velaryon on her orders had made Rhaenyra tremble with a nearly unslakable lust for her lord husband, and now that he belonged to her in the eyes of gods and men alike, she had taken her pleasure, and allowed him to take his in turn.

She looked at his broad, fair chest and back, now deliciously marked. She had raked her nails into his flesh as she tumbled over the edge, and he had screamed her name. Now he was fast asleep, his arm wrapped possessively around her slender waist.

If the gods were kind, she would give Daemon another trueborn child in nine moons. Having spent the last year in a state of true happiness with her beloved and her children, she was starting to believe that the gods were kind after all.

This happiness could not make her troubles disappear, but it certainly helped to ease her burdens. Today, they had rid the realm of an enemy, and in time, the rest of those who dared oppose her reign would fall.

It was that thought that finally allowed her to sleep.

The following morning, however, brought discouraging tidings.

Aemon, her father’s cupbearer, appeared in their chambers in the light of early dawn.

“Forgive me, Princess,” he said, bowing low. “I have come on behalf of the king. Prince Daeron’s dragon egg has started to hatch. He requests your presence in the throne room, along with your entire family.”

Rhaenyra stared at the lad, dumbfounded. It was impossible that Daeron’s egg could be hatching. He had no blood of the dragon flowing through his veins.

Daemon spared her the trouble of responding, thanked the boy, and dismissed him.

His fingers curled around hers, jolting Rhaenyra out of her stunned trance.

“The Green Bitch is trying to make a statement in gathering an audience for the hatching. You and I know the truth of the princeling’s heritage, and soon, so will the rest of the court.” Daemon stole a kiss and grinned wickedly up at her.

“Come, my dearest. We do not want to miss the Queen’s public humiliation.”

Rhaenyra nodded. Surely Daemon must be correct. The hatching of the egg was a coincidence, and Prince Daeron would prove himself unworthy of such a gift.

***

Alicent stood beside her son, staring at the cracking egg with undisguised greed.

Rhaenyra’s two youngest boys still had no dragons, thanks to her father’s grand orchestrations.

Now, after three years of waiting, Daeron would receive what he deserved.

It did not trouble Alicent that her third son had no blood of the dragon. Her clever little princeling was precocious and had studied the tomes she had given him with a fierce dedication. He would be the first Andal to master a dragon.

Daeron stood erect and proud beside her, ready to greet his hatchling as soon as it emerged.

Alicent was grateful that she had concealed the dark roots of his hair with fresh dye the night before. It would not have been prudent for Daeron to appear before court looking anything less than a Targaryen. After all, appearances still needed to be maintained.

Viserys stood on Daeron’s other side, beaming with pride, the old fool. Still, Alicent thanked the gods for Viserys’s blind devotion and gullibility. It had served her well for years.

“Honored lords and ladies. I thank you for assembling so quickly to bear witness to Prince Daeron’s triumph,” Viserys said.

Alicent dared to look across the throne room, where Rhaenyra stood flanked by her husband and children. The false Aegon’s egg had yet to hatch. And Joffrey’s had turned to stone. Alicent savored the taste of victory as Daeron’s egg cracked open at last.

The small head of a silver hatchling poked out of the shattered shell and uttered the draconic equivalent of an infant’s first cry.

The high-pitched sound echoed off the stones of the throne room. The assemblage showed their delight with applause. Alicent pushed Daeron towards the hatchling.

Daeron took a deep breath and knelt before the beast, extending a shaking hand.

The baby dragon recoiled at the touch, unfurled its wings, and let out a shriek.

The attack was unexpected, leaving no time for the dragon keepers to restrain the blasted creature.

Daeron fell to the ground, wailing in agony, blood pouring from his left eye.

Alicent screamed for the beast to be contained as she clutched her son to her. She felt the sticky warmth of his blood seep through the velvet of her gown.

The lords and ladies of Westeros watched in white-faced horror as Daeron was taken away by the maesters, and the hatchling was chained and caged by the dragon keepers.

Viserys took Alicent’s arm, but in her fury, she paid no heed to his attempts at comfort. Her gaze flew to Rhaenyra and Daemon. The little bitch’s face was frozen in a passable expression of horror at the gruesome scene, but it was Prince Daemon who returned Alicent’s gaze, his purple eyes gleaming in triumph.

[ladystonedwolf]

@maryonaccross @ella-of-ravenclaw The problem is, the scene with Vaemond is kind of an example of bad writing by the show. In the book Vaemond is sentenced to execution, but the show wanted Daemon to just murder him for the same reason they had Criston Cole beat Joffrey to death in public (with a gruesome shot of his mutilated face) rather than kill him during a tourney, and face no logical consequences. For the same reason they had Rhaenys murder a room full of innocent smallfolk so they could have their Big Game of Thrones Episode 9 Moment, without following through on what would actually happen ("she didn't kill the Greens because it's not her war/wouldn't do that to another mother" - how about a "hand over the crown, I've got a dragon and I'm not afraid to use it").

With Daemon in particular, there is a tendency by the show to use him for shock value without any thought to logic or character. I hesitate to say they are demonising Daemon, because I am not a Daemon defender, but the show's attitude to Daemon does seem to be "Daemon does evil things therefore any evil thing is in character". But GRRM describes Daemon as a grey character for a reason, there is some nuance in to whom and in what way he commits evil acts.

Daemon is an abuser who groomed his niece (more successfully it seems than Book Criston, who was also grooming the 7 year old Rhaenyra who he was made a sworn shield to aged 22), but the form of that abuse doesn't extend to choking (a scene the actors argued against). He is described as quite tender towards the people he actually cares about (again, in the way a man like Daemon cares about people), like Laena during her death in the books. There is no rumour in the book that he killed Rhea Royce, and it was logistically impossible for him to have done it in person, but if he was involved in her death then his modus operandi on that front is arrange for an assassination (as he was rumoured to have done with Book Laenor). Still evil, still unjustifiable, but a different kind of evil to personally bludgeoning his wife to death.

If the court scene with Vaemond had happened in the book, then it would not be in character for Daemon to kill him as he does in the show. He may well want to, don't get me wrong, but they would have at least gone through some formal procedure (or a medieval veneer of it anyway) of arresting and sentencing him.

In the book however, Vaemond wasn't petitioning to the King's court for inheritance of Driftmark. Because he didn't make a formal court petition, and the Greens didn't call for one. Vaemond was arrested for claiming he was the rightful heir and accusing Rhaenyra of adultery. Now the latter is technically true (is it adultery if your gay husband consents to you entering a monogamous relationship with another man?), the former however is not. Book Vaemond isn't Corlys' brother, he is his nephew. Laena's daughters both come before him in the line of succession. They technically still do with Show Vaemond, but this is never brought up. In Westeros, although this is often ignored in practice, a daughter does legally come before an uncle. And definitely before a nephew.

Now you can disagree with Vaemond's arrest and execution. By non-medieval standards of free speech we would call it tyranny - but it is again very different to murdering someone in the middle of a court proceeding. Even in Westeros, there is a distinction.

You can also claim "well Rhaenyra is usurping Baela and Rhaena too". Except in the book, she isn't. In the book, Rhaenyra, Laenor and Laena agreed, while Laena was alive and Rhaenyra's BFF, to betrothe their kids. Laena, technically the heir to the throne in her own right as Rhaenys' eldest (in the book), gets her daughter on the throne, and Rhaenyra and Laenor get to bolster their sons legitimacy. Laena likely figured her daughters claim to Driftmark would be overlooked or challenged by her cousin Vaemond, so betrothing her to Laenor's claimed son was a good strategy. Vaemond was going against the wishes of Corlys, Laena and Laenor - if it was purely about maintaining the line of succession then he would have been championing Baela in her own right.

The show then did the really strange thing of writing a scenario where no such arrangement was made between Rhaenyra, Laena and Laenor. They wrote a scenario where Rhaenyra actually was usurping Baela and Rhaena - and then nobody brings it up. Rhaenys doesn't even bring it up, for some reason she's arguing for her own non-existent claim. If the show cared about Baela and Rhaena as characters, then they could have written a really interesting moral dilemma - one where Rhaenyra finds herself in the similar position to Alicent of usurping her stepdaughter in favour of her own sons.

They could have explored how Baela and Rhaena felt about the situation - it would have 100% been in character for Book Baela to be outspoken about it. But their characters are mostly voiceless in the background, their claims are never considered, and Vaemond's own hypocrisy is never explored. There could have been some interesting commentary in how the only way they can claim their birthright is through marriage, an alliance against a common enemy in Vaemond but still yet another example of how a woman's ability to rule in her own right isn't taken seriously.

In a show that is centred around gender, it is baffling that Baela and Rhaena are ignored planks of wood (especially considering Baela is one of the more distinctive personalities and fan favourites in the book - certainly more than Vaemond). It's misogynoir, plain and simple. Kudos I guess for giving us black male fantasy rep through the Velaryon men, but with the Velaryon women it is clear the show stopped caring about these characters as soon as they were cast as black. Which considering the (much appreciated) effort they put into adding characterisation for characters like Helaena (who unlike Baela isn't given a lot of attention in the book), this really stings.

Tangent - Rhaena got my hopes up in episode 6, but her screentime is dropped as soon as her longing for a dragon is no longer needed to provide a new inciting incident for Aemond losing an eye. A more sympathetic inciting incident than the book, where the fight starts because Aemond pushes a three year old into a pile of dragon dung, not because he upsets Rhaena by claiming Vhagar. If Rhaena was allowed to be a character with equal sympathy and screentime I would have liked this change - as it is it mostly served to make Aemond look less like a prick for pushing a toddler.

So, Baela and Rhaena tangent aside... Vaemond had no right to claim Driftmark. The whole scenario the show wrote is rooted in a) prioritising shock value and b) misogynoir. Criticise show-only black supporters all you wish I guess, but frankly show-only green supporters have their own brand of hypocrisy.

Criston's murder of Joffrey isn't treated with the same horror as Daemon's actions. A modern lens is granted to Alicent's status as a child bride and victim of marital rape, yet it seems Rhaenyra and her sons must adhere to unjust medieval standards. In fact, considering the age gap between Rhaenyra and Criston in the book, it is gross that the show narrows the age gap and depicts him as a dejected lover rather than committing statutory rape. In Book Alicent's own words, "Ser Criston protects Rhaenyra from her enemies, but who protects Rhaenyra from Ser Criston?". A modern lens is used to explore Alicent's marriage to Viserys, but not to explore Rhaenyra's relationship with Criston. Rhaenyra is depicted as promiscuous rather than a victim of grooming - so instead of exploring the different ways Rhaenyra and Alicent are sexually abused the show depicts Rhaenyra as privileged and free compared to Alicent. And Criston is tragic and romantic where Daemon is abusive and violent. And Vaemond is simply seeking justice while Baela and Rhaena are invisible.

Can we talk about how embarrassingly pathetic the scene of Daemon killing Veamond was? He literally stabbed an unarmed man seeking justice in the back… during a court proceeding. There was nothing noble or admirable about it, it’s just plain cowardice. He could have challenged him for a duel right then and there but no ( and to be clear, he wasn’t acting like Viserys’ executioner in that scene because Veamond had not been sentenced to death ). I mean… this is a front row preview of what Rhaenyra and Daemon’s rule would look like? If they care this little about the lives and rights of nobles (not to mention relatives of Daemon’s daughters) the common folk must be worth as much as a bunch of flies to them. This is tyranny in its purest form. This scene is so in your face with showing these two as tyrants but for some reason some people just …don’t get it and see it as proof that he would be a good ruler. Like fr, who needs boring court proceedings and laws when you can just rule with fire and blood? Remind you of anyone???

What I am trying to say if that it’s alright to favor one team or the other because you sympathize more with the characters but trying to argue that you have ANY kind of moral high ground siding with team black doesn’t make anyone look smart for a number of reasons, this only being one of them.

[moonlitgleek]

What's the connection of Aegon the Unworthy to Rhaenyra? I've never seen or read anything in the lore of Rhaenyra being an Unworthy or problematic ruler like Aegon IV?

What I was referring to in my original post was that both Aegon IV and Rhaenyra were monarchs who put their personal pleasure and desires ahead of the realm and its laws. The power of the Iron Throne was a vehicle for them to use to satisfy their fancies and caprices, and little more. But the similarities do not end there: both were brazen about their affairs; both bestowed favor (or tried to, in Aegon’s case) on a lover publicly; both cared little for legalities; both used their obvious bastards to get the property of their purported fathers, Laenor Velaryon and Ossifer Plumm; both took action that threatened to send the realm into a civil war (Rhaenyra by having an affair and passing her bastards as trueborn heirs, Aegon by legitimizing his bastards and giving Daemon the sword Blackfyre, one of the visible symbols of Targaryen legitimacy - and one that had been used to argue that its wielder was the heir to the throne before - while casting shadow on his sister-wife’s fidelity and showing public disfavor to his heir to the point where rumors abounded that he was planning to disinherit him); both abused royal power even before they ascended to the throne, both were vindictive, cruel and consummately selfish. The list goes on.

As for Rhaenyra being a problematic ruler, boy oh boy. There is an abundance of evidence to that in the text that I’m wondering if perhaps you only read TWOIAF but not The Rogue Prince or The Princess and The Queen? The latter two really paint a picture a proper tyrant with a heavy inclination to abuse the law for her personal gain and pleasures, whether during her time as Princess of Dragonstone or her short tenure as queen.

Under the cut for length.

As Princess of Dragonstone, Rhaenyra’s most infamous act that bespoke of her indifference to the laws governing the realm she claimed as hers was her brazen affair with Ser Harwin Strong that produced three boys that she claimed fathered by her husband Laenor Velaryon, but who were facially the bastard sons of her lover rather than her husband. Trying to pass three obvious bastards as trueborn princes not only speaks of the extent of Rhaenyra’s belief of her own supreme power that (she thought) allows her to claim unprecedented privilege by getting her boys acknowledged as trueborn heirs based on her own say so, but also shows her willingness to flout the law and jeopardize the integrity of the line of succession for the sake of her own pleasure. According to Archmaester Gyldayn, it was high treason that Rhaenyra brashly committed by claiming bastards as trueborn heirs to the Iron Throne. Politically speaking, this was an awful political action that undermined Rhaenyra’s already tremulous position as heiress, but more importantly, it was an outright invitation for a future succession war even without the Dance happening. No one was ever going to accept the throne being passed to an obvious bastard while trueborn male heirs to King Viserys I lived, not the Westerosi nobility, not Rhaenyra’s brothers, not even her second husband Daemon the Rogure Prince who assuredly would have pushed for his two sons’ rights over the three nominal Velaryon princes. This decision on Rhaenyra’s part was a civil war waiting to happen, one way or another. The fact that she thought she could get away with it and that everyone would accept her kids’ parentage on her word is a testament of a despotic view of her power and what allowances it gave her, and a clear statement of her disregard of the laws governing Westeros. I mean, I don’t really have to argue how damaging to the realm such an attempt was, do I? The main novels made that argument quite effectively with Cersei’s children.

Of that inherently destabilizing act came two instances that set the tone of Rhaenyra’s behavior when it came to covering her treason, and emphasized her dismissal of the law as something that didn’t apply to her. The first is the tiff between her brother Aemond and her three Velaryon sons in which he called them Strongs that escalated to her second son Lucerys using a dagger to slash at Aemond taking out his right eye. In the aftermath, Rhaenyra demanded that Aemond be questioned “sharply” till he revealed where he heard the Strong rumor. She wanted Aemond, all of ten years old then, to be tortured so she could make a statement about her intolerance of the “rumors” of her sons’ parentage, completely ignoring the fact that someone armed her five-year-old child with live steel that he then used on his uncle permanently injuring him. Mind you, Alicent’s demand that Lucerys’ eye be put out in retribution for Aemond’s eye was just as monstrous, but two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because Alicent was awful does not make Rhaenyra any less awful. One wanted a child maimed, another wanted a child tortured.

The other example happened after the death of both Laena and Laenor Velaryon when their father Corlys was stricken by fever raising the question about the inheritance of Driftmark. Rhaenyra urged her goodfather to name her son Lucerys the heir to Driftmark, except, you know, Lucerys was not actually a Velaryon so he didn’t have any right to the Velaryon inheritance, no matter how Rhaenyra insisted otherwise. When Corlys’ nephew Vaemond objected and argued that Driftmark should pass to him because Rhaenyra’s children were bastards (admittedly purposely ignoring the claims of Baela and Rhaena Targaryen, Laena’s daughters by Daemon Targaryen, in the process), Rhaenyra had Daemon seize Vaemond and with no trial or due process, had him beheaded and fed his body to her dragon, an atrocity that was later compounded when Vaemond’s brothers went to Viserys I with their families to ask for justice and press their claim, only for the king to have their tongues removed, every single one of them, based on his previous edict that he’d remove the tongue of any who talked about the Strong rumors. That’s a gross mockery of justice and law, an infringement on the rights enjoyed by nobles, and a blatant show that Rhaenyra thought she could do whatever she wanted, even illegally seizing and murdering a noble with no trial. How very Aerys II of her.

Those are, unequivocally, the actions of a tyrant that also show what an awful political actor Rhaenyra was. There are some other examples of her bad political action during her time as Princess of Dragonstone, but I’m not going to get into them because being a bad political player doesn’t automatically equate to being a tyrant. Aenys was a terrible and ineffective political actor, but he was no tyrant. It just happens that Rhaenyra was both. Her actions during the Dance and her short tenure sitting the Iron Throne only damned her further on both accounts. Even at the height of her victory, her vengeance and whims proved her an appalling leader and ultimately led to her losing any legitimacy she could have claimed when her actions led to the smallfolk of King’s Landing storming the Dragonpit in a clear rejection of her rule (and to be fair, of Aegon II’s as well), and to even her most leal noble allies deserting her.

During the course of the Dance, Rhaenyra sanctioned the murder of Aegon II’s heir, the six-years-old Prince Jaehaerys, and started a rewarding manhunt for his daughter, the six-years-old Jaehaera and his youngest son, the toddler Maelor, that involved sending out “knights inquisitors” AKA torturers to wring information about them from the people. Strategically and politically, Rhaenyra prolonged the war in pursuit of personal vengeance and ignored Corlys Velaryon’s counsel of war-ending efforts. She insisted on inflicting severe punishments on those who served Aegon II, lined the walls of the Red Keep with severed heads daily (something that soured the smallfolk of King’s Landing on her and led to a comparison to Maegor the Cruel), refused to offer reasonable surrender terms to Lords Baratheon, Lannister and Hightower, and summarily had the Hand Otto Hightower and several members of the small council executed with Tyland Lannister sent to the torturers, all of which made bending the knee to Rhaenyra a rather unattractive option and ensured that the lords on Aegon II’s side would continue to fight to the end since their choices were death in battle or death after surrender. If all the roads led to death, why not go down fighting? Corlys Velaryon argued for pardons and hostages from the noble lords, for Alicent and Helaena to be sent to the Faith and Aegon and Aemond to the Wall, for Princess Jaehaera to be his own ward and in time wed Aegon the Younger in a conciliatory move between the two factions. Rhaenyra actively rejected any attempt of peace talks and chose vengeance instead.

She then doubled down on her brutality and went on to turn the smallfolk against her and alienate her own allies out of paranoia. She showed utter tone-deafness and lack of care for the people of whom she claimed the right to rule when she redirected resources away from a populace wrought by war and hunger and to preparations of a “lavish” party for her last Velaryon son to mark his installation as Prince of Dragonstone. Taxing the people to throw a party is damningly selfish in normal circumstances but doing it in time of war and winter when the people have been suffering for a prolonged period of time as it was (for a petty fight over the throne between two spoiled children no less) is reprehensible. The storming of the Dragonpit was a natural response and a testament to the level of misery the Dance inflicted on the people that facing fire-breathing creatures became an acceptable risk. This was a rejection of the dragons, greens and blacks alike, brought to head by Rhaenyra pushing a populace already pushed to the brink to throw a party. The frankly idiotic order for Addam Velaryon’s arrest and the execution of Nettles in the wake of the Two Betrayers and news of Nettles’ relationship with Rhaenyra’s husband Daemon came after that, and was crippling to Rhaenyra in every way. 

First came another instance of Rhaenyra’s disregard for the law by ordering the arrest of someone who proved nothing but loyal to her and who later went on to die in her service for the grand crime of being bastard-born, made worse by her demand of Lord Mooton of Maindenpool to break one of the oldest tenents of law to kill a teenager protected by guest right under his roof. Which made his options to either defy Rhaenyra’s order which was tantamount to treason in her eyes and basically forfeited his life, or violate an ancient and widely respected taboo and bring down the wrath of the gods upon him (and face the wrath of Daemon and his dragon as well). That the Maidenpool maester showed Prince Daemon and Nettles Rhaenyra’s orders and was promptly followed by Lord Mooton’s defection to Aegon II comes as no surprise in the face of the “foul choice” the queen gave him. Second was the devastating result of that decision. Through her paranoia and vengeful impulses, Rhaenyra effectively forced her allies to turn on her. Besides Lord Mooton, that edict lost her her two most loyal supporters: Coryls Velaryon who warned his nominal grandson Addam of Rhaenyra’s orders leading to Addam’s escape and Coryls’ arrest, and Daemon Targaryen who helped Nettles escape then took off to settle a personal score with Aemond, abandoning Rhaenyra. Considering that Coryls provided like, half of Rhaenyra’s army and all her naval force, Daemon was the commander of her troops and her Protector of the Realm, and that he, Addam and Nettles commanded three out of the four mature dragons on the Blacks’ side, that decision was counterproductive to Rhaenyra’s war efforts and a serious blow to her military strength. It was only Addam Velaryon’s stalwart valor at the Second Battle of Tumbleton that prevented the greens’ descent on Rhaenyra in King’s Landing.

Too, and relatedly, that edict and its consequences also sent a rather damning message to Rhaenyra’s supporters and created uncertainty within her ranks. She was turning on her own allies by this point for absolutely no reason. She ordered a loyal dragonrider’s arrest for no crime just because two other dragonseeds betrayed her and threw one of her staunch supporters, her one-time goodfather, in the black cells awaiting trial and execution. If the queen could turn so easily on her most loyal subjects and on a lord with the weight, influence and familial connection to House Targaryen like Corlys Velaryon whose family served the queen faithfully and even died for her, if she gave orders to have her own husband subdued and delivered to her in King’s Landing, what’s stopping her from doing the same to the next lord who displeased her?

So I’d say that Rhaenyra was more than just problematic, anon. In light of how she showed herself to be dismissive of the law as something that didn’t apply to her, a dreadful political player who was more interested in serving her own wishes and wants than in anything that benefited the realm, and a dishonorable and brutal figure in both war and peace with no respect to law or social taboos or the rights of the nobility or the suffering of the smallfolk, I’d say she proved herself a tyrant and earned her place as one of the worst Targaryen monarchs in the text.

[horizon-verizon]

still very confused

Alicent as a character that is supposed to be emotionally conditioned into depending on her father's counsel and other men's authority to have some sort of validation and political self defense. She's supposed to be unable to make decisions or take action without looking to Otto and others.

But Alicent has been trying to reveal Rhaenyra's infidelity and the illegitimacy of her son's for years, which would have resulted in her ruin as well as her children's. They could have even died, been executed or forever exiled. I don't see how this is forgiveable? Or how it can ever be ignored?

Should we ask mother's, or just caregivers and guardians of any gender, how they feel about this? Would they be so willing to forgive and even be friends again, as Hess and Condal assert?

In episode 6, we see her strongly dismiss Viserys (justifiably, regarding how stressed out at Viserys' dismissals) when he tries to make Rhaenyra's offer to marry Jaecaerys to Helaena. Once again insisting on his bastardry, how makes him unfit for her daughter. How unfit and wrong the boys very being is. For a noblewoman like her, it isn't difficult to gone that having a bastard allowed to go around court and inheriting a position over trueborns when she did the "right thing" has to be humiliating.

In episode 8, we're made to understand that she's doing a public atonement for episode 7's debacle by dressing more modestly in public, redecorating the Keep with more Seven stuff and taking down erotic tapestries for a more modest living space. (But we don't get to really see the bareness or how dull everything is, or actual Seven decor?) She makes her own power move by making Rhaenyra and Daemon go to the Keep to bid for Lucerys getting the Driftmark seat. And she goes along with Otto and Vaemond despite remembering Rhaenyra as her one and only friend and their childhood together. Why? Because she thinks that this will finally disempower a too powerful Rhaenyra, who again has been, in her eyes, flouting too many of the rules and is a danger to her own kids.

So why is it that she suddenly becomes more open to being friends again with Rhaneyra after Viserys reveals his decay? Nothing has changed: Rhaenyra is still a danger by the reason above an Alicent has been trying to put Rhaenyra's kids in danger for her own. All these kids, on both sides, are still potential devices for other lords' ambitions. And Viserys is still suppressing those things that have plagued Alicent for years when he does this. So why is she so willing to make peace? Peace is impossible at this point.

At one moment, Alicent is all gungho, let's destroy Rhaenyra, but she also doesn't seem to grasp that she would be ruining Rhaenyra and the boys when she says that she doesn't want to kill her. And the next she wants to stop a moving freight train and accept peace, and the writers AUS that she wants to restart their friendship, that it's still possible after all of that?

All of this is not the behavior of a reasoning or stable person. It's more than stress and anxiety, is she is living in a delusion or she is two different people. Or it feels rather like the writers are doing a great disservice to their own tweaked/"original" character by installing such nonsense into her psyche.

[horizon-verizon]

A)

Since Daemon was:

not the one to put out surveillance on her (Otto)

never the person to usurp Rhaenyra (bc whether or not he slept with her, has little to do with the practical effects of her image as news of Rhaenyra's supposed sex w/him never left the Keep itself)

never actively plotted against her as book!/show!Alicent and Otto did

not the one to demand for Lucerys' eye

not the one who said "bastard blod shed in war"

not the one who separated Rhaenyra from a husband-candidate who would have that much "assured" to the public her kids were NOT seen as bastards at the very least (just to ply this game, its not as if the lords who followed Jace and Rhaenyra IN CANON) and kept fighting for her even after she died cared about her sons' bastard/not bastard status

not the one who emotionally isolated her from Viserys -- that was show!/book!Alicent and Viserys himself

not the one who made Criston Cole go over to the green side -- that was Cole's misogyny and self-convinced claim over Rhaenyra and her body -- or protected said man-who-now-hates-Rhaenyra to his side even after he killed a lord under Viserys' roof...that was Alicent

not the one who turned Alicent's kids against Rhaenyra by teaching them that Rhaenyra was a shameless slut who dared to birth bastards who also should not be respected (both in show and the canon original lore) -- which leads to Aemond killing Luke, Aegon killing Rhaenyra, Aemond killing all the Strong males in a genocide

not the one who wanted to mutilate Rhaenyra's son 10-yr old Aegon the Younger to save his own son from external threats (Alicent will be the one doing that)

not the one who tried to convince his 8 year-old granddaughter to kill the same 10 yr old Aegon purely for their own revenge

[will be] the one who definitively removes if not the biggest threat to Rhaenyra's reign -- Aemond and Vhagar -- the 2nd biggest

the person who executed a man who, once more, tried to malign Rhaenyra for his own political gain when incentivized and helped by Otto and Alicent...talking about Vaemond...thus shoring up Rhaenyra's legitimacy in real time and in public

B)

Only other answers to this particular reblog are these posts:

(show only) Viserys, Alicent, Rhaenyra, and the Actual Realm of Misogyny + How Alicent Didn't actually have much to Fear concerning her own kids

How Show! not Book!Alicent Actually Didn't have Much to Fear (includes many links to other posts) -- book!Alicent also was lying to get the other greens to go along with her plans, it being the one and only time shes expressed any concern over Rhaenyra or others killing her and her sons

Rhaenyra Lying vs Aemond's Lying/Taking Vhagar

Traumau Plot (From an NYC article) -- about victims & victimization

theblackqveen's post about trauma and victims and how media's consumed

la-pheacienne's post about types of victimization the reader/audience identifies with more and thus designates as The Only Victim that Matters

How Rhaenicent is actually a Misogynist, Queerbaiitng, and Homophobic #1

How Rhaenicent is actually a Misogynist, Queerbaiitng, and Homophobic #2 (not me)

How Rhaenicent is actually a Misogynist, Queerbaiitng, and Homophobic #3 (not me) -- also describes a reaction to Alicent's character itself being changed into point-black, agency-less, politically stupid victim/pawn of Otto

How Rhaenicent is actually a Misogynist, Queerbaiitng, and Homophobic #4 (not me)

How Rhaenicent is actually a Misogynist, Queerbaiitng, and Homophobic #5

How Rhaenicent is actually a Misogynist, Queerbaiitng, and Homophobic #6 (not me)

You don't understand what the Dance of the Dragons was actually about.

The fact is that in the series the main characters are Rhaenyra and, fuck Alice Hightower, disgusts me so much.

If there are two main characters at the dance, it's very clearly Rhaenyra and Daemon.

Rhaenyra is the main character in this story, and Daemon the second, in addition to being the main male character.

They are the main characters.

Seriously, Alicent is inactive during the war and we hardly hear about her. It's ridiculous.

I'll add that there's a few other things that are so annoying, which is that they sell Rhaenyra and Alicent as the two main characters, but every time it's Olivia who's usually the center of the pictures, Emma not even close to her, strewn aside as if Emma was actually a supporting character.

Here is an example :

https://www.google.com/search?q=hotd+cast&client=ms-android-samsung-ga-rev1&prmd=insv&sxsrf=AJOqlzU_M61y91EyW4gpjJBzAgcSaEicAQ:1678596566317&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8x7nAy9X9AhW3YKQEHTuZDoEQ_AUoAXoECAEQAQ&biw=360&bih=648&dpr=3#imgrc=-FE24HqCdC3BHM&lnspr=W10=

The favoritism is so obvious.

If we are just saying "main characters", the TV's main characters are Rhaenyra (#1), Daemon, Alicent, and Aemond. If we are going by book series, it's those people plus Aegon II and Alicent.

But the protagonist of the story at large is Rhaenyra and her antagonists are Alicent and Aegon II: more the latter during the war, and the former before the war.

It's not about who is "good" but about focus. But at the same time, it's also true that Rhaenyra is not the evil that needs smiting -- it is through Alicent's internalized misogyny and Book!ambition that Rhaenyra loses and women in Westeros lose whatever else respect that could have had or incrementally gained through the event of a female ruler, a woman being put into a position over men and that being naturalized as it should have been.

So yes, there is no argument for why Alicent should have been the most central character alongside or sometimes before Rhaenyra. Because this story is not about Alicent's victimhood, it's about Rhaenyra's degradation and loss of power at Alicent's hands as well as the Westerosi patriarchy's (represented through Aegon II). the marketing is clearly green-flavoured, and it leaves such a sour taste for me. Like corruption.