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thewestmeetingroom · 4 years ago

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The West Meeting Room - You Can’t Fill From An Empty Cup

Broadcast Oct 5, 2019

SPEAKERS

Mica, Tony, Sabahat, Sabrina, Rebekah, Savy, Aqeel

Mica: Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room, a new weekly show from Hart House student podcasting team. Today we are broadcasting live from the CiUT Maproom Studios in Hart House and we are grateful to live, work and study on Dish with One Spoon Territory. I'm Mica, and I'll be your host for today's episode. Today's episode features a conversation hosted by Hart House student podcasters Sabrina, Tony, and Sabahat. They were joined by U of T students Savy, Aqeel, and Rebekah who share their thoughts on failure, productivity and what it feels like to be a non-traditional student.

Tony: Amazing. Thank you so much everyone. And so I guess to get started, we were just talking about crying, and how healing that is. And so kind of in a similar nature, we're going to start off by talking about things that we want to start talking more about, is failure and how to normalize that experience because it's such a normal part of learning and growing as human beings. And so we'll start it off, like we'll just share, like something that we failed at and in a way that we're celebrating. So I guess you can think of it as kind of like an introductory rapid fire round. And with that, who would like to start?

Rebekah: I'll go next. Okay, so I, I was taking the introductory courses for International Relations, because I thought that that was something that I really wanted to do. That's kind of the reason why I came to U of T too, because I was like, Oh, I want to study IR. And then was taking the Econ courses and I realized this isn't really for me. I don't care enough about it to actually study it, to seek help when I was actually struggling in it. And so when at the end of the first year, and I was looking at my grades, and I was looking at how I felt about my courses, and I decided, I was like, Look, I don't even care enough about econ. There's no point in like forcing myself to keep doing something I don't actually want to do. So I kind of rerouted myself and did History and Russian, which is something I was actually passionate about. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like it worked out and like it was a much more niche department. So I feel like I know a lot more people in my department now and it feels like more like home rather than doing something I definitely did not care about.

Tony: Thanks for sharing that Rebekah. And I think it's nice to know that sometimes you have to just figure things out as you go and to really find the things that are meaningful and that you're passionate about. And I like that you talk about sense of home. That's really nice.

Savy: Yeah, I know. I'm like very hard on myself. Even when other people are telling you Oh, you know, you did a great job. It wasn't really a failure, but maybe we kind of it like blows up in our mind and we tend to ruminate over little things. That's what I do at least. I like ruminate over something a little and think it was maybe bigger than it was. Yeah, and label it as a failure when maybe other people wouldn't say it was a failure.

Aqeel: I can actually relate to that a lot. Um, I guess my instance of failure is a bit more like every day. And this, usually like when I'm like going through my to do list for things to do, like school related or just personal tasks, usually I find myself like, I've been making it a point to make more realistic task lists. But even when I haven't been able to meet all those tasks, you know, I just feel like that I am a failure and that I haven't really been able to like, live up to the standard that I sort of create for myself. But something I didn't really realize and something that I'm like coming to terms with now is that oftentimes when I do take my time to do certain things or focus a bit more on - do things a bit more purposefully, or even when I actually don't end up doing things that I intended to do, or things that I've written down. What I've realized is that maybe I actually needed the rest that I took between the time that I was doing tasks or things like that. And making the point to be like, yeah, you know, it's okay that I didn't really actually do all those things. You know, my productivity doesn't have an impact on my self worth. It’s something that's really hard to do, especially when everything seems to be either monetized or weighting grades, things like that. So it's really difficult, but I relate to that a lot. Because I think, you know, that everyday sense of failure can sort of accumulate and then at some point, you just realize that you haven't done X amount of things and then you look back and it's like, what do I do with my time? And it's really easy to catastrophize for sure.

Sabrina: I think that's a really big thing, especially that point of like, grades or monetization. Kind of like these values that are quantifying what we're doing and a big one that it's very hard to kind of put a value next to, but it's very important is health, both mentally and physically. As someone who tends to, you know, go, go go and then I realized I haven't eaten at all at until it's like five o'clock. That's not something that you can put a price on until maybe it's too late. Or until you run yourself so thin that you're like falling asleep in class or like you slept through an exam or you're so hungry, you can't concentrate. And productivity isn't the most important metric. But if that's what you're measuring your success on, then running yourself on empty is counterproductive, you know. Because then something important is going to come up and you're not going to be useful or able to come to task at all. So it's really important to remember kind of those other things that you might not readily assess the value to so then you don't necessarily think that it's important or Oh, it can wait later, I can sleep less or I can eat later on, or I don't need water right now. Those are things that catch up to you. And when your body says it's done, it's done. And that's just something really important to remember I think.

Aqeel: You can’t fill from an empty cup.

Sabahat: So this is actually just last week, so we do recording sessions usually every Thursday and last week like I had a meeting in the morning where we were just learning editing and stuff and then so like you said, like running out of energy, just like working, working, working. Forgetting to eat and stuff. I think it got to a point where when it came time for the recording session, I did not have the energy to come and so I was like, I can't make it. And I didn’t come and I still regret it. Like I feel like this is, I really enjoy this space. I find comfort in the space with these people. But I couldn't get myself to do it and I just see it as a failure. But I also think, which is usually something that happens with failure is that in hindsight, like when time passes by, you tend to realize that maybe that was important.

Tony: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of things that we're touching on is this idea that like, you know, you don't need to be “productive” all the time. Like the human body, it's like we have limited capacities and it's just something I've been reflecting a lot on because doing like a full time practicum where it's like an expectation to do like 35 hours a week and I was like, Oh my god, the body is not meant to work the full 35 hours, like it's just not.

Savy: The struggle of practicum is real.

Tony: I’ve thought a lot about how like, Aqeel, like you were saying, unproductivity is actually in itself, like very productive. You know, like, similar to what Sabrina was saying. Like, you need to like rest up and like, allow your body to not be under constant like stress. And yet there's like all these societal messages or like, structures that remind us that, you know, we have to be productive in order to like be seen as valuable. And yet – so it's really interesting about how like being “unproductive” as a way to, like you know, of taking care of ourselves is actually a really, can be a really radical way of responding to those kinds of messages, right? Like it's very like, No. I'm going to choose to like take care of myself and not stretch myself until I burn out. So yeah, I think that's like a really important point to bring up. And so thank you for, all of you, for sharing those thoughts. And I think a natural transition could be that we can go into a question that Rebekah highlighted earlier and which we can talk about. When was a time you felt you didn't fit the traditional mold or the idea of the student path/student success because I think it kind of touched on some of the things that we talked about during that rapid round. How are folks feeling about that?

Sabrina: I think, we're talking about when you don't feel like you're fitting the traditional mokld? So I think for me -

Tony: Sabrina, can you also maybe talk about what is a traditional mold? I mean, maybe that's something that we can talk about too, like what is the traditional mold of a student?

Sabrina: Um, as someone who has worked as a tour guide, in the recruitment center, and I tour for upcoming students, I can give you kind of like a “Wikipedia” definition of what a nontraditional student is. And from there, we can kind of extrapolate, you know, a traditional student and a non traditional student for a post secondary institutional standpoint is someone who didn't go to post secondary right after high school. Someone who may have a family, someone who may work full time and just goes to school part time. Yeah, someone who may be married, someone who may be over 21 or over 25. You know, if you think of an older student or an adult student, those are kind of when we say the words nontraditional students, that's kind of what it embodies. And traditional student usually embodies 17 through 19, coming to post secondary, you know, two months after graduating. This includes students who also take a gap year after graduating, coming in starting in first year, and going through their degree kind of that way. And a traditional student as well, which is a big pressure for a lot of people, is a student who graduates in four years. And I'm going to do a little pause, and then I'm going to go into my story and then we can maybe come back to both defining and going into our stories. But my kind of segue is I think for me, feeling like I didn’t fit into the mold started when I realized that I might need to take a fifth year and when I might have to take you know, four and a half years. I came in thinking that I wanted to study French, Spanish, and then Philosophy. But really I wanted to get into like a type three restricted program. Didn't get the marks to get into the type three restricted program. So I was stuck with Philosophy, French and Spanish. Failed second year Spanish because I really never learned how to study. So then I was stuck with Philosophy and French. So now I'm trying to figure out you know, do I want to do a double major? Do I want to do two minors and a major? And what would my new minor be? And in adding this new degree kind of in my third year, realizing that I have to take another year and I kind of came into school thinking, you know, I'm only going to take my four years, I'm going to work through summer and then going to go to graduate school and I'm going to take the bar exam and that you know, like all these prescribed ideas, and that's not happening. And it felt weird for a while kind of thinking like I might have to take a fifth year especially because it's some family pressures there that are kind of like you're going to graduate in two years, and you're gonna apply to law school, and this is what you're going to do. And it's like, yeah, that's what I said I was going to do when I was 16. But I'm 20 now, and maybe I want to do something different. And it's kind of feeling comfortable with that. And feeling as though this is another journey that's just as valid as the journey that I set myself on two years ago. And that I'm growing and evolving. And not as though I'm settling because I put myself on a path of failure because I didn't try hard enough two years ago or I was too lazy, you know. So that's kind of my two part to that answer. The definition from my experience of a traditional versus nontraditional student and where I felt nontraditional.

Tony: Yeah, thank you for sharing that Sabrina. And I think it's, it's like helpful to start to think about what is considered a traditional or nontraditional student because I think it's also like - I like that you provided a very like objective sort of definition because it is important to think about that too, and the ways that we navigate academia. When I think about, like, the things that come to mind for me with this question is, I think a lot about how sometimes I'm like the, not even just like the only person of color in my class. Like, sometimes I'm the only, actually like a lot of times, I’m like the only queer person in my class and like, how it makes me feel sometimes. And it's weird, because it's not even just like, the physical presence of that too. It can also be like sometimes feeling like this pressure, like, Oh, so you're the only person that can talk about queerness and being racialized, and we expect you to, like talk about those experiences. And this is something that I realized I was like, Oh my god, how can this happen? But also, it also made me feel like - so for me like that traditional mold is feeling like I may not necessarily belong in those spaces, and there's like reminders of that. And that's what I think about like, Oh yeah, like I don't feel like a “traditional” student because the way that the structures were built didn’t have me in mind historically when they built them. Like we have done a lot of changes in terms of inclusivity, but I think it's important to be mindful that like, there's a lot of historical impacts that still lingers on today. And I think that's really important to acknowledge. And so yeah, that's like, I just kind of want to offer that sort of like other understanding of traditional students and feeling not like you might fit or for me like not feeling I fit in the mold either.

Rebekah: Yeah, I can really relate to that. Like I identify as a Black woman and especially studying in like the Slavic department, like, I've definitely experienced being like the only racialized person in a classroom and if not, being like the only queer woman of color in the classroom as well. So that's something that I'm always grappling with, especially like, when people question my ability to speak Russian or my ability to even learn Russian or ask me Oh, like why study Russia like you don't look like you would be the kind of person who would want to do that. But it's something I'm passionate about. It's something that I feel like I'm relatively good at. So that's kind of what I wanted to continue doing. But the other thing that I thought about in terms of not being a traditional student in terms of being a student here at U of T is that a lot of people like to call UofT U of Tears. Like something that's a place that's really stressful, really sad all the time. And I don't necessarily feel that all the time. Like there are definitely moments when like, towards the end of the semester when I am stressed, but during the course of the school year, and maybe it's just because of the program and my program that I'm in or the way I've chosen to build my schedule, but I don't like to be stressed and I'm going to take all of the ways and make my schedule around a way that doesn't make me feel stressed. So even though I've taken a lot of courses and I give myself a heavy course load, I like to give myself breaks during like the day to hang out with my friends or play sports, that kind of thing. I had a girl message me on Instagram. She's like, Wow, it looks like you're actually enjoying U of T. And I'm like, well, because I'm trying to. Like, I don't want to be sad here for however many years I am. Like, I want to enjoy my time here and make the most out of my experience here and make some really cool connections and meet some cool people. So if that means like, I don't know, even though I've lived off campus, like making more of an effort to be on campus, and like be involved in clubs or be involved with like, student life, then it makes me feel better. Like I don't want to be sad. So, and like, I know that there's some people who, like, genuinely have a hard time doing that. And maybe that's just my own personality. Like, I like to reach and grab those opportunities, but that's just something that's made me feel better. And I feel a little bit weird when people always tell me how stressed they are like, well, if I didn't get that paper done, it's not done. So I'm just gonna have to go to sleep now and because I would sleep over everything, so.

Sabahat: Yeah, so while we're talking about definitions and what's traditional, for me, I think when I came here, because I'm an international student, That's what kind of set me apart. And I think you don't realize it until you're in that space when most of the people are local people, like they're from here. And having an international kind of, even like small things like having a international passport like how difficult that makes it for you to get the visa. Like I was supposed to do, like I started a semester later to what I was supposed to actually initially start, because I had my visa got delayed. And it's just like these little things that you're struggling with. It's like, your energy goes into those things where other people don't really think about it. And so in a way you're kind of spending a lot of energy and doing the same kind of work like explicitly doing the same work that like let's say your class is doing, but you have all these pressures and then something like finances is also a issue because international and free is ridiculously high. And yeah, I mean, I'm lucky to be here. I'm privileged enough to be here, but not everyone can. And people who are on scholarships, like it's the whole bureaucracy and red tape of that is just ridiculous. I feel like someone in a one number position should not be expected to do all that by them by themselves, you know, they should be advisors or someone should like, walk them through the process. It should not be up to the student to figure that out. And that goes even for like someone struggling with mental health. You know, you're like, oh, if you want to leave, you have to go get this papers. I'm like, Yes, but if someone is struggling already, how do you expect to do that? You know, and so there's little things that you're expected to do with the whole process like bureaucracy form filling, which I feel like if most people are able to do it should not be expected of everyone. Because not everyone would have the energy or the capability to do that or just not be familiar with the process honestly. So yeah, I don't

Savy: I don’t know. I feel like I’ve had a traditional undergrad. Like I went straight from high school and I did undergrad in four years. And then I did my Masters and then I graduated from my Masters. So yeah, I had a very traditional journey. But I can definitely relate to just kind of feeling that pressure with stress and feeling like you need to kind of keep up. Like in undergrad, I would always maybe study too much and stay up too late and put self care a bit on the back burner. But it sounds like you are figuring it out like in your undergrad, which is great. Yeah, and then in my masters, had more focus on self care, which was really great and still kind of felt that pressure to study and kind of get perfect grades and I don't know, I just always felt that pressure. But I feel like it's the pressure that I put on myself and then also from peers and from professors. But just trying to focus more on self care and yoga and seeing friends and doing different activities on campus and trying to get more involved. I was part of the Black Public Health Student Collective at Dalla Lana which was great. And I was also, in my year, I was the only woman of color in my program at Dalla Lana. So like definitely feeling that as well. Like feeling kind of out of place but also having that safe space with everyone at Dalla Lana to share stories and meet new people.

Tony: Thanks for sharing.

Aqeel: So for the traditional student, for me. It’s a good question. I mean, I feel like we kind of touched on it already. But the idea that a student should always be stressed. What they do in their spare time is just like, shop online between lectures and just complain about like celebrity gossip and turn out papers, study for tests, do a hobby and like that's it. For me, I found it really difficult to attend classes and go to lectures. Because I felt that like, we could have been doing so much more with the authority that we do have in university. So for me, it just, it was really troublesome to have to just write about things when one, I was not only trying to like process stuff that I was directly involved in. So like, being the object of study while also trying to study is really difficult. Some people don't - sometimes academia is structured in a way that is meant to exclude people. And in that sense like, I find it really difficult to just be able to write down things and just like churn out essays and papers, when we could have been, for example, organizing or things like that. I feel like for academia, there's only so much you can do to sort of like process things, write things, sort of like bat ideas around and critique them when that's only really like half the battle. I think that knowledge is important, but it's only realized when you meet it with action. So being able to just solely focus on like doing these mental exercises of writing and like turning out papers and studying for tests and that grind, I find it really difficult. Like for me, I think it was really important to sort of like remind myself that I was not just a student at an institution, but just in general, a student of knowledge. And that knowledge extends beyond the institution. But also just kind of like beyond the classes that I'm doing into just trying to learn about the world like on my own terms. So in that sense, I felt like I sort of deviated from that traditional mold of a student where they were just sort of like okay with just passing through the sort of structures that are already in place when I feel like there's a lot more work that has to be done to make them more accommodating to people that would like to think outside of those structures.

Sabrina: I think your point on writing is really important too, because in the discussion of, you know, traditional versus nontraditional, the way that we are assessed, and the way that we learn, kind of creates a mold of a traditional student as well. Not everyone's writing is their strong suit. And sitting in a room listening to someone talk at you is not the best way to learn for everyone, or most people. And it's kind of unfortunate that it's not until third or fourth year that you get into a more intimate kind of relationship with your professors and with your peers to where it's more relational. I remember in first year I did a Ones program and the classes are a lot smaller and I went to those classes so much more than my larger lectures because I just had a higher relationship with my peers and with my professors, and they would ask me, you know, “why aren't you here?” if I didn't go to class. So it's like, oh, other people notice if I'm gone, you know. Whereas my lecture of 500, no one cares. I mean, I'd someone cares, but no one's chasing after me, you know. And it was nice to kind of walk into a class of 17 plus my professor after you not going for a week and have him pull me aside and say, “Hey, is something going on?” And I think that's another big thing, you're talking about to being the subject of a lecture while also learning about things in an institution that can acknowledge colonial pressures to kind of hide certain histories of racialized people or of queer people or what have you, and then prides itself on you know, uncovering these histories and we're going to learn about them and like all the things that happened to First Nations peoples or to Black people, or to gay people, or what have you. But then not realize that the narrative that you're proliferating also means that racialized students or queer students in your class, this might be the first time that they're hearing stories that relate to them on more than just a textbook level. And it might be, you know, they might be using this to realize, you know, this is why my mom acts like this or this is why someone acts like that, and it becomes a more real lesson. And then you have to sit there and write a 2500 word paper on like, you know, the Stonewall Riots or the Trail of Tears or whatever, and you're, like crying thinking of your grandmother. And there's, there's not a lot of support for that. And there's not a lot of room to, to kind of work through that because the institutions are made for people whose histories are told and who kind of have confronted and understand where they come from, and aren't necessarily ashamed of it. And also made for the people who wrote the history in the first place so it puts them in a good light. So I think those are really good insights.

Sabahat: Yeah, just continuing - like so speaking about being like, feeling out of place in classes, I think one thing that I would just like to mention is that as hard as it is, I feel like it's kind of a sign that you're probably thinking more and you're probably more like, I don't want to use the word smart, but you know, just like engaging more with the material than people who are just passive. Because, so I remember one of my undergrad professors saying to us that you know, in a class, if you're not uncomfortable, you're not learning. You know, and because with learning all these things about how structures work, how systems of oppressions work, where you're, you're making sense of, “Oh, my mom or my grandma was part of this oppression” and just like historically making sense of it, but it's so personal to you. And I feel like that discomfort should not - like it's unfortunate that it has to be there. But I also see value in that because if you are uncomfortable, you're unlearning things. You're learning how to navigate these systems, how these systems work, and I think you're more likely to think about it in a very contextualized way than someone who cannot relate to the history and is just there to kind of produce papers. So I feel like there's value in that.

Tony: I think sometimes when we think about academia, like it's, and we touched on it, how there's like definitely like this one way of doing things, one way of learning, one way of gaining and producing knowledge, without recognizing that there's so many ways. There's so many learning styles, but there's also so many knowledge that is produced outside of academia that is just as valuable, if not even more valuable, that we don't even have access to or it's often like cut off. And I think a lot about how I think sometimes even this pressure of feeling like you need to like learn knowledge in a certain way can be a very, and when you're not able to do it, it can feel like we're placing the onus on the individual. And yeah, I like that we talk a lot about like the different structures that are play, like the different systems. Because it's true, like I think those are very much - it informs the ways that we're able to like access knowledge and gain knowledge and share that knowledge. And while recognizing like the larger forces at play, we do talk a lot about personal agency. So like, how do we navigate these structures because structures don't change over time, unfortunately. And so, I was thinking for our next transition, we can do like a really quick, rapid fire round because, you know, I kind of heard some folks talk about, like, you know, self care. Like things that we do to, you know, help us be able to, you know, not just survive, but also thrive as well. Like things you do to like, take care of yourself, your body, your soul, your mind.

Rebekah: I play on my college’s intramural volleyball team. That's something. I was super passionate about volleyball all throughout middle and high school. I've played for like eight or nine years and when I'm not playing volleyball is like when I'm sad. Actually, when I'm playing volleyball I’m my best self, I'm feeling the best about myself. So yeah, we won our championship first semester like this past year. And that was like really, I felt really proud of that team because it was a new team and we had a lot of new players and the fact that we were able to like put in the work and like see actual results and like see people improve over the course of the season was really cool. And I think that was like, not super common in New Colleges’ intramural history or for volleyball at least. So that also felt really good to be a part of that team that made that happen. And it just gives me a break in between like studying all day to like, actually not be sitting at my computer and like actively doing something. So going to drop in volleyball at the ACA or the Goldring is like the highlight of my day because I get to leave the library and actually like run around and do stuff and sweat even though I hate sweating. But like, I don't know, like volleyball is where it's at. So I try to get as many people involved in intramural sports because I think it's a really good way to release tension and also meet a lot of new people. Like I feel more part of New College’s community for it.

Tony: That sounds really nice. And it makes you happy?

Rebekah: It makes me so happy. Like I'm the happiest.

Tony: And you deserve that. That's really lovely. Thanks for sharing.

Sabrina: Following the thread of athleticism, varsity cheerleading has been - I didn't do it in first year because my joints, and my wallet, and I was sad for it. And I wasn't as active. So that's kind of what keeps me going. It's kind of like that small class that I had in first year. Having a team of people and as a team sport, having a team of people that really rely on you. Things can't really go forward if someone's missing. It's nice when people check in on you when you're not around and it's nice to kind of work as a group towards a goal. Aside from that, I think just I've been foraying more into sustainability and kind of a zero waste lifestyle and a minimalist lifestyle and like Tarot and energies and things like that and kind of connecting with spirituality. And also connecting with the earth. I find a lot of the technological and industrial advances that we've had, that are slowly killing the earth, are also negatively affecting us like physiologically just as human beings. So in trying to give back to the earth and be nicer to it you know, and produce less waste, I've also been foraying into you know, cleaner eating and cleaner habits and doing less of things that are also self-destructive for me, either mentally, or to my eyes, or sitting too long, things like that. So that's been really nice, because I feel like I'm taking care of something else. Because it can be hard to take care of yourself. But indirectly, I'm taking care of myself.

Aqeel: I’m trying to like recall the things that I do. I guess for me, this is more seasonal, but I really like to garden. So I spend most of the year just waiting for gardening season. Just waiting for you know, it's not the best in Canada, but it's something that I do really enjoy. Like being able to connect with the earth but also literally seeing the fruits of your labor makes me really happy. In addition to that, like getting into fitness is something that was like really was really important for me. Just being able to go for walks between classes in a way sort of became fitness because fitness is not just going to the gym and lifting weights. It's just being able to take time to do things at your own pace and enjoy it. As long as it gets your heartbeat like up. I think that's something that's like more fitness oriented to something like that. Being close to my family I think was something that was really important to me. Like they really do ground me. In addition to that, this is more of like a spiritual practice, but I really do, because I'm Muslim, I do pray. And that's something that, you know, I find extremely healing and being able to actually connect with more people that do that on campus was something that was very gratifying. I never really actually grew up around people that make it a point to be like, “hey, I just, you know, gotta go to the side and pray” or something. So, it was nice to be able to like be affirmed that it's okay to be able to, you know, just take a few seconds and pray. It's hard to do that at school though. Because, you know, school isn't really built, for example, like being able to take breaks like that, but it is something that's like very, very healing for me.

Sabahat: Yeah, I feel that. I feel like - so I identify as Muslim as well. And I think praying is something that has become like a software thing. I should probably do it more often than I do it now. But I think religion holds a very important place in my life. And I think it gives me a lot of peace in times of chaos, which is literally every day. So something for survival, I think something that I've been, recently like I've learned to do, which was really hard, is that when you're at a very low point, it's really hard to reach out to people and ask for help but I have been, I've been able to do that lately. And I just, I'm just really proud of myself for doing that. But I think yeah, that's like a survival thing for me. And something that I took up like a month ago was I've always wanted to learn how to swim, but I never got the chance. So I enrolled in a class and now I have a class every week and it's amazing. That one hour is like, amazing. So yeah, just doing different things.

Sabrina: Can I resource sidebar? Do you all know about the fifth floor in Robarts? So there's a prayer and meditation room on the fifth floor. There's yoga mats, there's prayer mats, pillows, yoga blocks, it's super awesome, serene, if you can like make it up there.

Sabahat: Okay. Yeah. And there's also a multi-faith center in Koffler.

Tony: Amazing. Thank you for sharing all those lovely tips. Oh, okay, I guess I'll quickly share one. So one thing I've been doing is I've been going to a sexy dance class. So it's actually a particular, it's taught by a lovely instructor who identifies as queer trans, as a person of color. And it's like, a dance class that's meant for just queer trans people of color and it feels so nice. Like, I know just to have a space where other people share your, like, identities and lived experiences. And also for me, like find your sexy is like, you know, when we're dancing and, you know, yes, it's about feeling sexy, but it's also feeling more at home in your body, which is something that I've been thinking a lot about, and the ways that I need to feel at home is like being able to reclaim you know, parts of me that you know, that I've been taught to feel ashamed of. And actually now it's like nice to celebrate those parts where I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna celebrate my femmeness, my queerness and like reclaiming that has been really healing for me. And to do that, and just share that story with other people who, you know, yes like, we are different in a lot of ways, but we're also like, you know, we do share a lot of like similar experiences and we're able to like kind of grow and heal together and like celebrate each other. And I think that's pretty rad. So yeah. Braeden did you want to share something? It looks like you do. We would love to hear you.

Braeden: I was just curious. I have been thinking because, you know, you've talked a lot about dance as a place of healing and returning to your body. And I've been thinking about that a lot, because I feel, I feel pretty disembodied at times. So I wondered if you would have a piece of advice for someone like me to like - like what's a place to start to sort of like get to know my body again?

Tony: Oh, my god, that's such an amazing question. I think giving yourself time to figure things out. Because I know for me, I didn't start dancing till like three years ago, but it was always something that I was really interested in doing. And part of it is like cultivating that self love. And that looks so different for everybody. And I think for me, it was like intentionally taking the time to spend it with myself. And whether that's like, kind of really like, really looking at, okay, what are the needs that I have? And those can change. I think in a lot of ways when we do self reflections, they definitely can fluctuate and change over time. And that's absolutely okay. Because I think there's something really meaningful about reflecting on how what you thought you needed or who you are a year ago can change so much today. And like, I think there's like some really meaningful insights that can be gained from that. I think for me, I just found dancing to be something that was such a powerful outlet for me because it was something that yeah like, I think a lot of complexities around feeling like my body wasn't quite my own. And a lot of that was like, I've internalized a lot of things growing up, and then me like being able to express those frustrations. Because I think part of reclaiming your body, it's like not, it's not like this - definitely, it is a beautiful journey - but there's also a lot of moments that don't feel beautiful. And I think it's important to take, like, hold space for that. I think that was really important for me, was to be really honest about the ways that I haven't felt like - what are the reasons that made me feel like I needed to reclaim my body. And that can be really hard. And I think it's important and like that's not something you have to do on your own. I think part of it for me, I've been really lucky to have found a community, friends who kind of like helped me along the road to do more of that healing work. And so this is a great segue into our next question. So thank you Braeden, because I know we just talked about self care. And something that we also want to focus on is not just about things that we can do for ourselves, but also ways that we can practice community care. So going beyond just the self because it can feel like a lot of pressure to feel like you have to take care of yourself all the time. What are ways that we can reach out to our communities, and why is this important? And that's the hard question because it's like, what does community care look like?

Sabahat: I think for me, I think it's important. I see it as important because when you are dealing with it yourself in isolation, I mean, it could very well work for you. But I think there's a different kind of comfort to be in a support group and to hear people talk about their experiences, right. And it's literally what we're doing right now. So I think community care for me is sharing experiences, being there for each other. And being there, again, does not mean that you have to provide advice, or you have to provide a solution. Being there can literally look like you're sitting with them, listening to them, what they have to say, and sometimes, honestly, just asking what they want. Because people generally know what they want, they just don't know how to ask. And so that's what community care looks like. To have a system where if you're feeling isolated, you know, you can go to this particular group and just talk about it. And yeah, have like regular meetups basically, so that you don't go to that place of isolation.

Rebekah: You kind of like mentioned before in our conversation about being like a social person. And like being in isolation can be really hard. And I feel that totally. And I find that happens a lot during the school year, especially when you're like trying to crank out papers or you're trying to do readings. And a lot of the times I would end up doing it by myself, but then I would spend so many hours by myself during the day either just like looking at my computer or with I don't know, books and stuff like that, that I felt like I wasn't, I wasn't getting enough out of my day. Like I would just go home and spend an entire day not talking to anyone, because I'm just reading all day or writing all day. And so I made a point to reach out to my friends, especially during the school year, because a lot of them had mentioned to me that they felt the same way. Like I spent a lot of time in the library just by myself. And it's like, well, if we're both studying we might as well study together. Like why do this in isolation. And even if you have to take breaks and it might take a little bit longer to get that reading done. You feel less alone doing that or less alone doing that work. So yeah, I try to reach out to my friends more during the school year, especially during like times of stress, like peak stress during midterms season and stuff like that, just to make sure that “hey, I know you're probably going through this too and I'm going through this, let's go through this together.” So we're not alone in doing this because that doesn't feel good.

Aqeel: I think what's really interesting about how we navigate University is this idea that the “real world” sort of exists. There's school and then there's like, you go move on to the real world, when in fact, like, the real world is very much in touch with school. Like, for example, when you look at, like worker conditions, or like, why people are organizing and labor unions. Like, you know, capitalism sort of alienates workers, and in a sense, the University alienates its students, and, you know, with that, it's like, when you itemize people into like, just individuals, it's really difficult for them to, you know, foster collective action and take care of each other, which I think is like really important, and I really grappled with this question this year. I just finished my term with my term with the Muslim Students Association as an executive. And the work that we do there is, to me, like absolutely crucial. You know, just given not only the rise of Islamophobia, but like more subtle forms of it. Being able to create room for each other to just kind of look after ourselves to sort of reconnect with our faith, reconnect with people of knowledge was really important to me. Because, you know, you can go through the motions and when people have, you know, identity crises, faith crises, it's really difficult, like we were saying earlier. It's a struggle, you know, by yourself. And in that sense, when, you know, an institution like the university fails to cater to the individual. The responsibility unfortunately falls on the students staff to create that community for each other. And I think what was absolutely amazing was just watching us organize around the mental health crisis. Like that was something that you know, All our, this is going to sound very, like liberal platitudes, but across all our differences, we are able to, you know, reach a consensus around the fact that there really was a crisis on campus and the university really had to grapple with - the students’ voices essentially became a voice to be reckoned with. Where, you know, we were able to organize among ourselves. We were able to pressure admin by disrupting, by calling to the attention of media. Which really kind of threw off in the sense that like, perhaps, you know, perhaps U of T is not just only known for their research, they’re actually known for creating really detrimental conditions for their students. So things like that, like community care, in a sense, is essential. And I think you can kind of find that in clubs, you can kind of find that in just your peer to peer networks, your interpersonal relationships, your family. Like things that move beyond like, just the ordinary, isolating activities like we were kind of talking about earlier.

Sabrina: Yeah, I think it's interesting how you're talking about the isolating experience and also, you know, leaving baggage at U of T if you have baggage at U of T, but I kind of wanted to challenge that notion because I feel like a large portion of why the systems work, the way that they do is because the students are transient. And despite the fact that we're the ones paying for a product, we’re probably some of the least permanent aspects of this entire institution. So it's really easy for those who create policies and who create systems and who get paid to kind of change infrastructure and architecture and renovate things and change course enrollment and selection in ways that are counterproductive and counter intuitive to student needs. Because we really aren't here that long to do much. And while we're here, we're working. We're studying or forging relationships. We can't spend all of our time fighting administration. But some of the people who are best equipped at fighting administration, are alumni. Are people who have worked through it. Are people who have graduated. Are people who, you know, their protesting may not directly - they don't fear that their protesting will directly affect their marks or their standing or whatnot. And they have the capital to back it up. U of T raised what was it? Over 3 billion in their Boundless campaign and a lot of that came from donors and alumni. So when donors and alumni, especially alumni who’ve had that experience turn around, and they say, “why am I funding you? You know, it took me six years to graduate.” Not that that's a problem. But what is the problem is it took me six years to graduate because I never got adequate mental health services. Or when I was struggling, this structural issue, this part of the paperwork, messed me up or I didn't get my degree because of that. Why would I give you $200 or $2,000? So I think that's kind of a way of creating community as well is not leaving your baggage at the door. And that's not to say, you know, don't move on from it. Like move on from it. Live your best life, you know, forget about U of T, you know, leave your baggage at the door and forget about U of T. But when U of T comes a knockin and they want, you know, a $20,000 endowment because you became the next second VP of, I don't know, Google or whatever, turn around and say, why would I? I forgot about you. And I want to forget about you, and why would I help you out? You didn't help me out. And I think that's a big part of community that's difficult for university students and students. Even in high school is if you think about dress codes or sexist practices and things like that, is that the individuals who are permanent in these institutions are not necessarily the individuals who these institutions are meant to serve. And those who are meant to be served are transient. And it's hard to have a foothold if every year you have a new cast of characters and a lot of your greatest advocates have graduated and then you need to bring all the first years up to speed and by the time they understand what's going on they’re in third year and you're graduating.

Rebekah: I just relate so hard to that.

Tony: Really, yeah, thank you for bringing that up something that was like, really, really important. So for our closing, it's not really a rapid fire, but it's basically a nice question to end on. So after just like, you know, sharing, holding space together and being able to listen to all the different wisdom that's been shared, and also the wisdom that you shared with all of us. Now, think back to your younger self, whether that's the person that was making that transition from high school to first year. Or for us, Savy and I, like either thinking about that transition right before grad school, or just like any transition in your life where you're thinking about your younger self and some things that you might say to that person, knowing all the things and all the experiences that you've gained now. What is your older self now going to say to your younger self?

Sabahat: The only thing I would say to my younger self is it's not your fault. And that applies to a lot of things. I feel like my childhood was surrounded by guilt and me blaming myself for every single thing that was happening. And it's only just recently that I've decided that okay, no, like other factors were involved in the situation. So, yeah, I would just say, “girl, it's not your fault.” Yeah.

Rebekah: I think I would tell myself, it's okay like not to have a plan. If you told me five years ago that I would be sitting in Toronto, because I'm from the States, I would be like “why? Why would I be there? Wait, how did I end up there?” And there's a lot of different things that you can't foresee and a lot of variables that happen that you can't predict how things will turn out. So I'm very interested to see what 25 year old Rebecca will be doing because it's definitely going to be something that I can't predict right now what that will look like. And I'm working on new job right now. And every day we have a plan, like a schedule of things that are supposed to happen. But every day, something doesn't go according to plan and something is happening. And you just have to kind of figure it out on the spot and you can't predict that. Like a kid's going to go missing or you know, you can't predict that the buses are going to show up late, but you just have to like, take it as it comes and like make your best outcome out of that. And so, I think that that's been a really valuable lesson I've learned. Especially these past couple of months, because I'm like, the type of person who likes to plan and then likes to know what I'm getting into and what kind of options are available for me. But going forward, even looking at graduate school, I don't want to limit myself because I don't even know what things I'll be interested in like a year and a half or something like that. Or even like what kind of options or people I will meet that will influence the way or influence where I might want to go. So I don't know I'm just open to like as many opportunities, as many possibilities as possible. And I don't think that 16 or 18 year old Rebecca even really understood that.

Aqeel: Um, advice that I would give to my younger self would probably be to trust in incremental change. The idea of moderation. I know for me, something that I have, I've always had like really bad like perfectionist tendencies. And with that came a really - a very negative internal monologue. So I'd always be really hard on myself for not, you know, living up to the goals that I had, when I was younger. And also taking, you know, whatever knowledge I did have being able to put it at service to people around me. Something that I always kind of grappled with was the idea of like, evolution. I didn’t have the term for it at the time, but now I sort of have it now. The idea that, you know, at one point in time, change is going to happen for the people that deserve it. But in some cases, it definitely does work like that. In other cases, it's small moments that eventually galvanized into change. and postponing my ideas for evolution, not abandoning them, was something that I probably should have told myself when I was younger. Because I always thought, you know, if you just worked hard enough, things would change and things will be better. But and again, where it kind of relates to the idea that everything is your responsibility and you have to achieve it on your own. But like being able to remind myself that I do need more people to be involved there. If we do want change for the better and like being able to teach myself that change happens in increments. And like, being able to, for example, challenge negative self talk, it takes learning to really appreciate things that you are good at, so that you could eventually use the good that you experienced by treating yourself well to create good for other people, you know, in the long term or even like in smaller effort. So it's, I would teach myself that like incremental change is really important and that things may not come as, as fast or as quick as you may like. But it doesn't mean that it's not possible.

Savy: Something I would tell my younger self, probably in first year, would be to really just try and enjoy the process a little bit more. And don't be so focused on where I need to be, or what I need to be doing. Just be more present and just try to enjoy the moment. I definitely had a lot of imposter phenomenon, right? Yeah, I felt like, Oh, I need to be studying so much. And I just, I spent so much time studying and didn't enjoy I think a lot of experiences where I could have. So I learned that more. But yeah, I would definitely tell myself try to be more present and enjoy the moment. And even now, like in my job, people will ask, well, like, what do you see yourself doing? And I just think well, like, this is what I'm doing now. Like, I want to be present now and be grateful for what I have now. Right? So there's always so many places that you could be or possibilities and opportunities where you could work and where you could do grad school and that. But just, I'm grateful for where I am now. So I'm trying to focus on being more mindful. Practicing, like gratitude. Making meaningful connections with other people, community and trying to focus on how I'm feeling in the moment and not on, is this what I want to do? Like, this is what I'm doing and I enjoy it. So, do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Tony: Thanks for sharing that. I love that so much. Being grateful for the moment. And that's actually going to be something similar to what I would tell my younger self. And something that I've been trying to remind myself is like, I think it can be really easy to get wrapped up in the uncertainty of the future. I think sometimes it can be really scary to think about things that I have literally no control over and cannot predict. And at the same time also just reminding myself of all the dreams I used to have, like I'm living those right now in this moment. And thinking a lot about how, yeah, like I've always wanted to, you know, dream of trying to live in a different city, doing a Masters, continue to explore and find myself. And also like, challenging myself. Like this whole podcasting gig. Like, there were a lot of dreams that I've had that have come true. And I think I'm just like, taking a moment to really appreciate that and just remembering like, how much I used to dream of being where I am right now. And for me, like, I don't know, I think that's really beautiful. And I, and like, of course, we can continue to dream of other things too. But just taking that moment to really be grateful

Savy:And be proud. Be proud of yourself.

Tony: Yeah. To be proud of ourselves.

Mica: Thank you to Savy, Aqeel and Rebekah for sharing their insight and wisdom with us. And thank you to Tony, Sabrina and Sabahat for fostering the safe space for this meaningful conversation. And a special thanks to Carly Stasko, Braden Doane, and Day Milman for their help in producing today's episode. These conversations were recorded as part of the Peer Wisdom Talking Walls exhibit. The West Meeting Room is a production of Hart House Stories. Our intro outro music was produced by Dan Driscoll. To find out more about our team and the Talking Walls exhibit. Please visit harthouse.ca and be sure to follow us on Instagram at @harthousestories. I'm Mica signing off as your host for today's broadcast of The West meeting Room. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.

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