#The surges in power levels in Vegeta’s generation could also be an indicator of hybridization according to Nappa

[shannonsketches]

I'm sure it's been discussed at length already but I think it's easy to assume saiyans are strong so their genes are dominant but I (like to) think it's the opposite. It's interesting to think that the ecological nature of a saiyan is stealthy and invasive, and according to Jaco a saiyan invasion was going to be extra dangerous to earth because they look like earthlings (and a lot of other human-like races in the db universe) and one baby saiyan will easily go completely undetected until it starts the extermination process.

so it actually makes a lot of sense to me that a saiyan hybrid would take more physical traits from a local species, while maintaining the potential to house a saiyan's strength and inborn power over ki (which I think due to the story following a group of people who use it is a thing we often forgotten is a super rare and dangerous ability in that universe, and inborn/instinctive to a select few very powerful races). Could also be a fun way to explain why their tails can detach and grow back, since that may be the only real Tell.

because like yeah gohan and goten look like goku but they also look like chichi ykwim? trunks and bulla look like bulma. pan looks like videl. thoughts i chew on.

I also just find parasitism a real good meaty horror concept to put in my little 'this is why everyone's afraid of saiyans' headcanon file along with 'can see in the dark, biologically strategic energy consumption, can go long periods without food or rest' and of course the canonical 'surprise monkey werewolf kaiju'

[tigerlover16-uk]

Don't you think it's stupid how fast Caulifla and Kale are progressing? I mean, you have to admit that the Kefla spoilers are kind of stupid

Goten managed to gain a super saiyan transformation offscreen at the age of 6-7 (Half the age GOKU was when Dragon Ball started) with no direction or training from Gohan.

Given Gohan’s having to struggle a bit when they sparred as Super Saiyan’s, and his comments that Goten could catch up to him pretty soon, Goten was near enough to the level that Goku and Gohan were in the Cell Saga, a level of power that took Goku decades of back breaking hard work and emotional turmoil to reach. And the only training he’d done was under Chichi, a regular human who hadn’t practised martial arts for YEARS and was only at the level of a regular human martial artist, and couldn’t have taught him squat about Ki control, so the only other training he could have had (Since it’s pretty clear Gohan hadn’t been doing it) is self-taught on his part.

Trunks similarly hadn’t received much if any training from Vegeta, if the scene of them in the gravity room at the start of the Buu Saga is any indication since that obviously wasn’t a regular occurrence and Vegeta seemed bemused he would attempt to train in the room with him. Yet he’d reached the exact same level.

As Gotenks, they later managed to skip right past super saiyan 2 to become a super saiyan 3 after only a bit of training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and seemed to pull it off and master it with relative ease. Keep in mind, this form was only obtained by Goku after years of training in the afterlife, and Gotenks is a lazy arrogant slacker and most of Goten and Trunks’ training in the time chamber was implied to have been them coming up with flashy moves.

There’s also the little matter of Goten learning to fly on his first try (Like father like son, I guess, since Goku learned the kamehamaha on his first try, despite never having attempted ki control in his life up to that point).

And we’re not given much explanation for any of this besides “Because hybrid prodigy’s”. (Well so was Gohan, who the series keeps propping up as Mr Talent most potential, and even he didn’t progress like this)

If I can accept that, I can accept anything at this point.

Also note that Piccolo, who last we saw lost to Nappa who had a mere 4000 power level, after spending a brief time training on King Kai’s planet (Though seemingly not much, since several scenes I recall show him not bothering to train with the others) and fusing with Nail, who had a power level of 48000 and got his butt severely handed to him by first form Frieza, managed to put up a great fight and even overpowered second form Frieza. Power level over 1000000.

Note that after spending a year training on King Kai’s planet, Goku only reached a power level of just over 8000 (Let’s ignore what the dub says, alright? It’s 8000). And then later when fusing with Kami again (Who was way weaker than Raditz), Piccolo was roughly on par with the Androids and was able to fight evenly with Imperfect Cell for a while.

I don’t see many people complaining about this, when if you listen to this fandom‘s rhetoric about how “Power level’s mean everything!” In a fight, this stuff should be impossible.

Hit has an ability that literally allows him to rapidly improve and catch up to his opponents as he’s fighting them. In a mere ten minutes or so (Real time, given how time seems to work in Dragon Ball I don’t know how long it was in universe), he was able to improve his time skip ability and seemingly his skill and strength fast enough to fight evenly with Goku at X10 Kaioken on top of super saiyan blue, when just last episode he was struggling for a while against regular SSB Goku until improving his time skip further.

We’re given no real explanation for how he can improve this fast other than the suggestion that this is just a natural ability of his.

And pretty much the entire fandom loves and adores him for this, and praises him as the coolest character to come out of Super.

And I can go on.

Fact of the matter is, power scaling and progression has become a joke since Frieza showed up, part of the reason I think power level’s in general were a terrible idea and Toriyama should have just left power scaling relatively ambiguous but understandable like in Dragon Ball.

Caulifla is a natural prodigy that’s probably been training all her life. Her brother was the pride of the saiyan elite forces, so she probably had at least some tutelage from him, especially considering Cabba knows her enough to be uncomfortable with seeking her help because he doesn’t get along well with her.

She would have had more training, and from better sources than Goten and Trunks ever had. (Also little note, one of the data books, which aren’t necessarily gospel truth and accurate mind so take it with a grain of salt, tried to suggest that saiyan hybrids that don’t have tails might have an easier time going super saiyan. universe 6 saiyans evolved to not have tails. A pay off for greater power in their base forms and easier transformations, perhaps?)

The scene with her and Cabba trying to unlock her transformation and the whole “Channel your energy to this point on your back” moment confirms something I’d been speculating on for a long time. That despite their status, the regular super saiyan form is actually a fairly basic technique that any powerful and talented saiyan can do if they have good enough ki control and they actually know what they’re doing, the extreme anger part is just an optional alternative.

The reason Vegeta had such a hard time getting the form? He was doing it wrong because he didn’t have any direction, being too proud to ask Goku for any pointers, and only gained it eventually because he threw an enormous bitter hissy fit. Super saiyan’s “Legendary” status in universe is blown out of proportion because saiyans somehow just lost knowledge of how to do it and what exactly a super saiyan was for a thousand years.

Her going super saiyan 2 is more of a stretch, but seems to have been caused by a momentary surge of adrenaline and it was established later that she couldn’t go into it willingly until she saw Goku do it, at which point she still needed to spar with him to get better control of it so she could use the form properly. And she clearly wasn’t as good with it as Goku was.

And despite her natural talent and improvisation, Goku was still able to get the upper hand on her at SS2 in his base form simply through sheer skill and tactical genius. Yes she eventually gained the upper hand on him, but Goku was still weakened and in the middle of loosening up his muscles to get his fighting sense back after Jiren knocked the wind out of him earlier even if she might possibly have had an advantage over him in raw strength, it’s not completely clear.

Kale I have issues with how she was written leading up to episode 100 (Mostly due to the lack of screen time and backstory to flesh her out and provide more of a catalyst for her emotional and mental issues, and her and Caulifla’s relationship as much as it needed to be). But in terms of her actual power?

She’s a reinterpretation of Broly’s Legendary Super Saiyan form, a once in a millennium special case where a saiyan is born with ridiculously high levels of power stored deep within them. Broly’s entire gimmick was to be OP as all heck, so with that and the knowledge that she’s had training under Caulifla, I’m not inclined to be picky about her being as strong as she’s shown.

Kefla being strong enough to beat Super saiyan god Goku in her base form? Maybe a stretch, but keep in mind, potara fusions combine the power of their users and multiply the total several times over. If Vegito can make a fool out of Buuhan in his base form when the monster had been trouncing Goku and Vegeta easily moments before, then I’ll buy this too.

Kefla being able to push Goku through super saiyan blue and some level of the Kaioken after that by going super saiyan? Eh, why not. If this whole thing was just an excuse to get Goku to go Ultra Instinct again on his own this time so he knows how to do it again, then I can think of worse ways they could have done it. And it’s pretty clear she’s not going to win, either the fusion time will run out or Ultra Instinct Goku will just plain beat her before exhausting himself because he still isn’t in the best of shape, so whatever.

Is the progression kind of ridiculous and over the top? Yes, but Dragon Ball has had nonsensical escalation since Z. At this point in Super, you kind of have to throw caution to the wind and exploit some loop holes to have any character that isn’t Goku and Vegeta reach a level where they can be relevant. Z’s the series that broke power scaling, so right now I’m just more interested in if they can keep the fights exciting and fun to watch.

Each of the power boosts the girls have gotten has at least some kind of an explanation, being based on a pre-existing power up. It makes more sense than things like Future Trunks rage form or spirit bomb sword, which had no explanation. Or Piccolo’s aforementioned fusions, where the explanation doesn’t quite seem to add up.

And at their age and likely experience, and the fact that Super keeps actual power levels and scaling vague like Z did after the Frieza saga, I’m willing to believe and go along with their performances so far, because there’s a long established history of characters doing ridiculous power progressions or otherwise learning new techniques almost immediately (Or just pulling weird and random techniques out of nowhere, like Gotenks creating a swarm of sentient suicide bombing ghosts to attack his opponents. Explain that).

Really when it comes to Dragon Ball, I care more about the characters involved, and how the story and fights are presented. I can nod along with the stuff involving Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Hit, and several other examples because I like their characters and the stories they take part in, even if they require some huge leaps in logic. Same reason I can accept Pan blowing up a giant robot by powering up, and flying from the stratosphere back home while carrying the Pilaf gang as a BABY who’s not even a year old yet. Because that’s awesome and adorable and screw your logic.

The current fight has been fun and exciting so far, and in pacing and presentation really feels like a fight from Z, which I’ve been wanting to see more of in Super. I like Caulifla, she’s adorable and fun and I see plenty of potential with her becoming a sort of protégé to Goku in the future.

Kale I could do a whole other post on how very hit or miss her presentation has been, mostly earlier on (And really I’ve been meaning to do that for a while, but it’s late now so another day maybe), but she has gotten better now that she’s actually gained a bit of self confidence and her cute interactions with Caulifla. So as long as the writers are more careful with how they write her in the future should she and Caulifla come back for future stories (And I hope they do, why waste them like a number of other characters?) I’ll be welcoming of it.

So personally, I don’t feel the need to throw a fit over their’s and Kefla’s upcoming performance. There have been characters with stupider and less logical progression before plenty of times in Dragon Ball. I’m not going to get mad because Toriyama and the writers got a little carried away making a spectacle of the two first super saiyan women in the franchise’s showing this saga. They’re helping to fill a big void in Dragon Ball in terms of representation, so that’s important.

No matter how many sexist fans complain about it.

As for the non sexist fans, I get that their showings seem nonsensical and I maintain the belief that people are alowd to like and dislike whatever they please based on personal interpretation, taste and any other fair reason. So if you’re not convinced, I’ll respect that and won’t argue.

But I’d suggest really thinking hard about them in context to the power scaling and escalation of the series prior to this, and consider if the situation with Caulifla and Kale is really as big a deal as many make it out to be.