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voiceless-terror · 4 years ago

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Respite (The Magnus Archives)

Whumptober 2020 Day Twenty Three: Exhaustion

Fandom: The Magnus Archives

Characters: Jonathan Sims, Sasha James, Tim Stoker, Martin Blackwood, Elias Bouchard, Rosie

Summary: Archiving is hard work, but someone’s got to do it.

Or, five people who caught Jonathan Sims sleeping on the job.

“Alright Jon, I think I’m going to head out-oh.”

Sasha had been gone for five minutes, tops. And yet here was Jonathan Sims, fast asleep in his chair and using her messenger bag as a pillow. And snoring.

They worked late into the night on some hunch Jon had - once he got on a research kick, there was no stopping him. Sasha wasn’t much better. They encouraged the worst in each other sometimes, but that’s how they got their sterling reputations as researchers. So this was not an unfamiliar scene.

But it was ten at night and Sasha had been looking forward to finally getting home, putting her feet up and knocking back a glass of wine or two. They had hit a dead end and wouldn’t be able to continue until tomorrow, anyway. Jon had begrudgingly agreed and she popped over to the bathroom only to return to...this.

It couldn’t be comfortable. Her bag was covered in buttons and pins, some particularly pointy. It wasn’t exactly clean either; it had been thrown on one too many questionable surfaces in the past few months. But Jon seemed comfortable, if his open mouth and the tiny bit of drool currently on the front pouch were anything to go by. Gross.

She contemplated waking him up. He would want to head home soon as well, the trains became entirely unpredictable the later it got and they boarded at the same station. But something stopped her. Maybe it was the dark shadows under his eyes, the small, wheezing breaths. The way his brow slightly furrowed even in sleep. The crankiness that increased as the week went on. If anyone deserved a quick rest, it was him.

Sasha had been in the job for three years before Jon came on. She cut her teeth in Artefact Storage for the first six months- initially she’d been excited to delve into the dangerous and mysterious objects they had on site, but that excitement quickly faded into dread after a week on the job. She got the first transfer out into research, much more her speed. She was steadily making her way up the ladder and was now trusted to train new hires and interns. Ergo, Jon.

When she first met him, she honestly thought he wouldn’t make it far. He was fresh out of college, twitchy and short-tempered with an intermittent stutter. She didn’t fault him for that of course, but that didn’t save him from the judgment of others. No one wanted to get within a mile of him until Sasha volunteered her services in a rare moment of pity. His hand was dry and shook in hers when they were introduced; he was clearly not used to touch, though surely he must have shaken many a hand by now.

Sasha was good at teaching, though she wasn’t very interested in it. “You should teach!” so many of her friends and family members said. Sasha hated being told what to do even more than she hated teaching.

Jon was a difficult student. He had constant questions that Sasha patiently answered. He did not take criticism well, once getting up and walking away for an hour after Sasha fixed his grammar. He couldn’t seem to focus, which was not at all promising in a career that demanded it. Still, she worked with him as a sort of pet project. If she could make a functioning researcher out of Jon, she could prove herself worthy of respect and perhaps a promotion or two herself. So she figured out how Jon ticked- what worked for him and what didn’t. It took some hard work but Jon opened up bit by bit, giving her more insight into the person he was. And he wasn’t all that bad, once you got past the prickly exterior. He was whip-smart with a dry, clever humor that Sasha could appreciate. When he got on the trail of something interesting, he followed it to the end with a dogged determination. Sasha found herself opening up in turn, talking to him about her past jobs in academia and her frustrations with the Institute. They had a lot in common, it turned out. Both were academics at their core, finding debate and discussion endlessly entertaining. They both had a soft spot for nice wine and greasy pub food. And they were both constantly underestimated and overlooked- Sasha, as a woman in her field with a tendency towards “aggressive behavior” which in any man would just be called confidence and expertise, Jon with his inability to read social situations, the stutter in his voice that undermined his points, and the painful earnestness in every word he said, no matter how pointed. So yes, they got on. He made her laugh. That was hard to do these days.

Five more minutes, she promised, sitting back down at the table with a fond look to her companion. Thirty minutes later she woke him up, smiling at his panicked embarrassment and laughing in exhilaration as they ran to the station, just barely making the last train.

___________

What does Elias think he’s playing at, putting this poor young man in charge of the Archives?

Rosie had worked at the Magnus Institute for two decades and had seen many a manager come and go. She was Elias’s first and only secretary, coming in a bright-eyed young girl and now a tired, disillusioned woman firmly in middle age. You see a lot of things at the Institute. Sometimes you have to turn a blind eye.

When Gertrude Robinson went missing, Elias handled the situation with a bizarre aloofness that Rosie felt no need to question. Questioning things got you in trouble around here. But when he told Rosie of his plans for Jonathan Sims, she had to stop herself from scoffing. She had seen the way Elias spoke to him, mentoring him in a way he never had with any other employee. Perhaps he just had a fondness for the boy, though she wasn’t sure what he had done to earn it. Jon never got used to Elias’s presence, constantly jumping at a hand on his shoulder and laughing nervously through any of their conversations. It would be endearing if it wasn’t so pitiful.

But to make him Head Archivist? The man had only been here four years, there were plenty of other researchers and staff members who had not only seniority but the credentials to match. Jonathan Sims had an Oxford pedigree, impressive to be sure, but in Literature and History. It didn’t help that he seemed one missing file away from a nervous breakdown at all times. And they were going to give him an entire department to manage? A department that was in shambles and hadn’t been properly handled in the last fifty or so years? Good luck, kiddo.

She had been a little short with him the day he took the position- she had a monster of a headache and he wasn’t exactly making it easy on her, what with his questions about Gertrude and his ridiculous little proclamations of “I don’t believe in ghosts!” But the sincere gratitude in his voice as he told her to thank Elias for the opportunity came back to her hours later. You have no idea what you’re in for. It seemed almost sadistic to put a man like that in charge of the Archives.

The situation never seemed to improve. From what little she saw of him in the hallways, he always looked haggard and on edge. When he stood in front of Elias’s door waiting to be let in for another meeting (Elias had been scheduling a lot of them as of late), his hands fidgeted and his feet shuffled. She felt bad for him, when she remembered to. She had twenty years to get used to Elias, but he seemed to get worse with every visit to his office.

It was with a reluctant sigh that she took the paperwork from Elias and headed down to the Archives. Just a few things that slipped my mind on the last visit, so sorry Rosie. It was the end of the day and she was punctual to a fault, meaning she very rarely stayed past five unless Elias requested it. Even the Archives were empty- the assistants had all filtered out earlier and her footsteps echoed in silence as she made her way to the Head Archivist’s office.

“Mr. Sims?” she called, immediately regretting the choice of name. It sounded unnatural coming out of her mouth. “Jon, are you in there?” There was no one in his desk chair, though his bag and coat were still accounted for. She was not about to do a scavenger hunt through the Archives, the place gave her the creeps and it got worse with each passing minute. She contemplated just leaving them on his desk when she saw a half-opened door labeled “Document Storage.” I’ll just peek in, can’t hurt.

“Jon?” she called again, creaking open the door and peering inside. It was not very well-lit; half of the lights were flickering like something out of a horror film. No one answered her. “Jon, if you’re here I have a few papers for you to sign. I’ll just leave them on your desk-” It was then she noticed a cot in the corner. That’s not allowed, she thought testily. It was rumpled- somebody had used it recently, she deduced. And then she looked down to the floor to find one leg sticking out from under the cot. She shrieked, grabbing at her chest as she slowly made her way over, unsure of whether she was about to die or if she had to call an ambulance.

She kneeled down gingerly, her legs trembling as she found one Jonathan Sims entangled with a small, tattered blanket and snoring softly, completely lost to the world. She sighed in relief and no small amount of irritation- the man had just taken about three years off her life, at least. And what was he doing under the cot? Such a strange thing, that Jonathan Sims.

She reached out and grabbed his arm, giving it a good shake. “Jon!” He kept right on sleeping, completely ignorant to her entreaties. She gave him another, harder shake- nothing. This is ridiculous. She leaned in closer and opened her mouth to give one last deafening shriek of his name. “Jon!”

That did the trick. Too well, one might say.

Jon immediately sat up, which wasn’t a good idea- he only had a few inches of room left under the bed and ended up slamming his head against the metal rungs and leaning back down with a cry. “Agh!” he squeezed his eyes shut as she reached out her hand in apology.

“God, I’m so sorry,” she babbled, patting his arm. “It’s just, you weren’t waking up and- are you alright?” His silence was worrying. Oh god, Elias is going to murder me if I’ve killed his Archivist.

“Yes,” he hissed, awkwardly sliding out from under the bed in a sort of shimmying motion and rubbing at his forehead. Luckily he hadn’t broken any skin, it was just red at the point of impact. “What on earth- ah, Rosie!” The instant switch in tone as his eyes focused on her form would be amusing in any other situation. “So sorry, d-did Elias need anything from me?”

She paused, considering the man in front of her. He looked bad, really bad, like call-the-doctor-bad. Thinner than ever with dark circles under his eyes, like he hadn’t had a good nights’ sleep in weeks, if ever. And that look in his eyes, the change in his voice as soon as he noticed her- Elias had sway even through proxy. Suddenly Mr. Sims was all eager-to-please, as if he hadn’t just been caught collapsed under a bed in sheer exhaustion.

“What are you doing under there?” is what she asked, though she did not mean to. She wasn’t really supposed to care about anyone in the institute and she’d done a good job of it thus far. But something about this situation felt off, even to her.

He ran a hand through messy hair (he’s going gray so young) and gave her a self-deprecating smile. “Ah, just a- I’m just a bit tired, that’s all.” He made no attempt to explain his odd choice of napping area. “If you could please not tell Elias-”

“Of course,” she assured, again strangely protective of the silly little man in front of her. “Think nothing of it- just need you to sign a few papers, is all.” She got up to allow him room to move, ignoring the creaking of limbs far too young to sound so bad. “Should probably use the bed next time, dear. That floor’s got to be horrible on your back.”

Jon blushed, grabbing at the papers and looking anywhere but her eyes. “Yes, well,” he shifted his feet, gesturing at the tattered blanket he had extracted himself from. “I’ve got that, so it’s fine.”

She fixed him with a dubious stare, but let him have this one. He headed back to his office to grab a pen, limping in obvious pain. The papers were signed and they said their goodbyes, Rosie heading home and Jon heading back to Document Storage, whether to sleep or work she couldn’t tell.

In her next round of discretionary spending, she ordered a few pillows and a nice knitted throw for the Archives. The break room had been looking a bit drab, it deserved a little sprucing up.

______________

“Mr. Stoker, if you could come get your Archivist I’d be much obliged.”

“I’m on it, Janice.”

Tim sighed. Just another Wednesday night at the Magnus Institute.

Jon was running them ragged with investigations, following up on every statement he deemed ‘unsatisfactory’ in terms of research. So far, he had deemed almost every statement as so. It was not very fun.

Tim had taken pains to finish his research bright and early, wanting to get home as quickly as possible and finish up the series he’d been binging. This plan included the added plus of avoiding the worms that had been showing up outside the institute over the past couple of days. But then Jon had come out of his office, looking sad and lost as he handed over another statement for Tim to work on. “Tomorrow is fine, Tim,” Jon said, in an uncharacteristic show of generosity. “No need to worry.” Tim was worried now, for an entirely different reason.

He promised himself he would only stay an extra hour, just to make sure Jon got home alright. That was two hours ago. Jon had apparently snuck out to the library without him noticing, and now needed to be fetched for reasons Tim was pretty sure he could guess at.

Jon was never really on good terms with the librarians. What he lacked in charm, he did not make up for in well, anything really. He got upset when a book was in the wrong place; he was very short whenever something would take longer than a few minutes. He constantly hid from the librarians when it was time to close- one night he was quite literally chased out by Janice, and another night he was locked in (also by Janice) and didn’t even notice.

So finding him tucked in between two bookshelves fast asleep was not surprising in the least. It didn’t look comfortable but Jon seemed fairly relaxed, crammed as he was. This had happened more than a few times back in research but never recently. And never was he quite so hidden away, not even a limb giving away his position. He knew Jon liked his small spaces, but even this was pushing it. Janice hadn’t attempted to wake him, knowing what a fools errand it would be. “That boy could sleep through the end of days, I reckon,” she said as she opened the door for Tim and ushered him down the aisles. “I don’t know how he does it.”

“That makes two of us,” Tim mumbled as he crouched down in front of the man he previously called a friend and now a boss. “Jon? You up, mate?”

No response. Typical. Tim could keep this going for the rest of the night, or he could take matters into his own hands.

Let it never be said that Tim wasn’t hands-on.

He managed to maneuver Jon into his arms without waking the man, a feat he’d perfected over the years. Jon, for his part, just slumped into his chest and muttered some nonsense under his breath that Tim couldn’t make out. Jon was a fairly vocal sleep-talker, something he found endlessly amusing. This situation was anything but amusing, however, and he could barely summon up a smile to give Janice as he carted his boss back down to the Archives.

Jon was falling back into old habits. He was becoming distant and moody, snapping at any inquiry about his health or well-being. It took all of Tim’s strength not to snap back at times. Sasha helped keep him in check, giving him warning glances whenever she believed he went too far, which was happening more and more often. He was afraid for the frail man in his arms. He had a strange sense of impending calamity that woke him up in the middle of the night, heart racing like it did after his encounter with the circus. It awoke a strange, primal fear inside of him that Tim couldn’t control and it crept in more and more by the day.

Even when Jon was safe and comfortable, tucked neatly into the cot in Document Storage, the fear didn’t ease. He wanted to stay and keep watch, though that didn’t make much sense. The Archives were probably the safest place to be. Nothing could reach them in this dank, dusty prison cell of a workplace. Not even Prentiss. But he was tired, so he decided to leave Jon to his dreams and chew him out tomorrow morning. Now wasn’t the time.

He took a quick detour to his desk and back to Document Storage before he left, throwing one of his cardigans over Jon’s sleeping form. Just in case he gets cold, he reasoned. In reality, he didn’t know who it was actually for- Jon or himself. Maybe both.

_________

This is ridiculous.

Initially, he had been happy and slightly proud to see his Archivist stumbling back into work, bleeding and freshly marked by the Corruption. He of course told him the opposite, encouraging him to take all the time available to him to recover. But his Archivist was nothing if not stubborn, and watching him limp about the Archives, paranoid and afraid, was a wonder to behold.

Today, however, might not have been the best time to come back.

The Magnus Institute, on paper, had a fully functioning HR department. That this HR department only included one incredibly overworked woman who was willing to let many things slide in order to collect a paycheck was no matter. They still had to observe the basic requirements that came along with it, and that included having mandatory yearly training in things such as workplace harassment. The modern workplace truly was a marvel - as if anyone willing to commit these acts would be cowed by one seminar.

But here they were on a Thursday afternoon, every supervisor gathered in the conference room to undergo ‘mandatory training’ in sensitive subject matters. The training wasn’t actually training at all but an instructional video of about thirty minutes. It was quite literally the least they could do- Elias wasn’t about to go wasting precious money on hiring more professionals to help them avoid inappropriate conduct. That’s what lawyers were for, after all.

Jon had stumbled in once the video had already begun, looking bedraggled and worse for wear. The only seat left was in the back, conveniently located right next to Elias. He gave his Archivist a short nod and glanced back at the screen with a bored detachment, watching from another pair of judging eyes as Jon stumbled and struggled his way around his colleagues, murmuring apologies.

He didn’t acknowledge Jon’s greeting, preferring instead to keep him at a distance. He didn’t want him to get too comfortable with him, not at this early stage. But he still noted the exhaustion in his features with some concern- he did need him semi-functioning, how else would they get any statements recorded?

Jon managed valiantly to stay awake for the first ten minutes before he started to nod off, his head jerking backwards in a sad attempt at consciousness. Elias rolled his eyes, clearing his throat several times in an effort to keep him awake. He didn’t much care for Jon’s dignity, but it was rather embarrassing for him to have an Archivist who couldn’t stay awake for a mere thirty minutes once the lights were down.

But then it started to veer into dangerous territory. Jon was slumping down further and further in his seat, each jerk awake more distracting than the last. Elias would ask him to leave if he didn’t think he would collapse on his way out the door and cause even more of a commotion. No, it would be fine to let him sleep if his head wasn’t constantly listing to the left, further and further and- Christ.

Jon’s head found purchase on his shoulder and there he remained, finally content to doze in peace.

They were tucked far enough in the corner that nobody could really see unless they strained their eyes. Everyone else was either watching the video or falling asleep themselves. Elias considered his options- he could wake the man, knowing the force required to do so would only cause a scene, or he could let him sleep until the end credits rolled- credits he knew were incredibly loud, and thus would cover up any yelp the Archivist emitted upon waking.

Both were terrible choices. If Elias had his way Jon would have collapsed back in the Archives and avoided this mess entirely. He would also have the added bonus of being able to scold him later- a win-win, certainly. But alas, it was not meant to be. He sacrificed his pride and let the man continue to sleep on his shoulder, tensing as much as he could to keep Jon from slipping further down into a more embarrassing position. The added irony of the subject on the screen- Unwanted Workplace Advances- was not lost on him.

At least the man was having unpleasant dreams. He contented himself with watching the Archivist flit across his nightmares, running from worms and spiders and whatever other horrors his mind conjured. It was much more entertaining than the video on the screen.

And then the credits rolled. A few seconds before they began, Elias placed a firm hand on Jon’s shoulder and shook him once, hard. Just in time, the outdated, cheesy music blasted from the speakers and nicely covered his Archivist's shriek of terror and subsequent heavy breathing as his eyes shot open, panicked. No one was the wiser to that little display.

His hand turned light, friendly. Just a boss showing concern for an unwell employee. “Jon, are you alright?” he asked, schooling his face into a parental sort of worry. That always seemed to work well with Jon- he was much more apt to be agreeable when the authority figure in question made it personal. “Do you need to go home?”

His eyes could barely focus as everyone else in the room stood up, yawning and stretching and milling about. “I-yes, I think I just need a lie down.” Elias nodded in faux-concern, helping the man to his feet.

Jon didn’t say a word as he walked him past the front door and into the Archives. He knew he had work to do.

________

Jon was in the way.

This was not a sentence Martin Blackwood had ever thought before. Even when Jon was technically in the way, he wasn’t, not really. Wherever Jon was, was wherever Jon needed to be. Whether it was standing in front of Martin when he needed to get to the break room, or blocking the water cooler as he lectured Tim about ‘workplace standards,’ Martin wasn’t going to ask him to move. Fighting with the man was absolutely exhausting and a lesson in futility.

But Jon was literally in his way. As in if he didn’t move, Martin would not be able to do his job for the rest of the day.

The man was curled on top of a box of files, the exact box of files that Martin needed to access. He wasn’t moving- Martin had thought at first that he was dead, but his slow, even breaths disproved that. Why would he choose this spot to take a nap? It couldn’t be comfortable- his back was hunched and his bad leg stuck out at an awkward angle. His arms were sprawled over the box as if guarding it. Sasha had told him a few stories from their research days, but he had never seen the man asleep over anything but his desk. Jon was looking far too vulnerable these days, and Martin didn’t know what to do with that.

“Jon?” he tried quietly. The man didn’t stir. Figures. He wanted to reach out and shake him awake, but his wounds were barely healed and kept opening up, probably from his nighttime escapades. He didn’t want to be the cause of more of Jon’s pain. So he stood there awkwardly, shifting from side to side as his boss continued his slumber.

“Something wrong?” Martin jumped at the sound of Tim’s voice- Jon did not. He was leaning in the doorway, looking almost as tired as Jon and definitely in need of a nap as well. He recovered a bit better, having taken every day allotted to him. But that didn’t mean he was back at peak performance. Tim followed his gaze to the floor and rolled his eyes upon seeing Jon asleep. ‘Really?” Tim was very irritated these days. Martin didn’t blame him.

“I didn’t know what to do!” he whispered back, though he probably didn’t need to keep his voice down. “I don’t want to hurt him, but I need that box-”

“Just move him,” Tim replied unkindly, making his way over. “He won’t wake up, he’s a very heavy sleeper, honest.” He reached out a hand to grab Jon’s shoulder but Martin stopped him.

“N-No!” he stuttered forcefully, well aware of Tim’s attitude towards Jon these days. “I’ll just, I can wait, I guess-”

“You said he was in your way.” With a wince Tim crouched down, placing an arm around Jon’s waist and hoisting him over his shoulder in one smooth, practiced move. “See?” he said, also whispering. “Not a peep.” It was true, Jon hadn’t stirred one bit. It was also very concerning. He watched as Tim slowly made his way across the room to the cot, placing Jon in bed with an infinite care he didn’t think the man capable of. Like hands at a piano remembering a well-practiced tune, Tim’s body played out a gentleness he no longer felt, not anymore. He even placed a blanket over Jon, pausing for a moment to look down at him. Martin couldn’t see the look on his face and couldn’t guess at what it was.

“There.” He turned around and abruptly exited the room, not sparing another glance at either of them. When Martin looks back at this moment, he’ll wonder if that’s the last kindness Tim ever offered Jon, and how sad it was that he wasn’t even awake to see it.

________________

A year later and Martin finds himself standing over Jon, watching him sleep. He is curled around a tape recorder. The light is on, it’s recording. For what end, Martin does not know.

He slips an arm around Jon’s waist like he saw Tim once do. Jon shivers- Martin is very cold these days, so he doesn’t fault him. He deposits him in the cot he knows so well- he will be safe here. Warm. Basira is here, and Melanie- they’ll look out for him, in their own way. He pauses, looking down at the man in the bed. He is alive, but Martin couldn’t tell you if he is breathing.

He does not visit the Archives again.

ao3: https://archiveofourown.org/works/27162460

#whumptober2020 #exhaustion #no.23 #fic #tma #the magnus archives #jonathan sims #martin blackwood #tim stoker #sasha james #elias bouchard #my writing #jonmartin #not a lot but its there #not really any cws

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notthatiwilleverwriteit · 4 years ago

Note

do you think that tianshans relationship is too violent??? or do you think that’s just their dynamic???

Hello, dear anon!

That is a tricky question for sure. I have talked about my take on violence-related topics a couple of times before:

Is Tianshan toxic part 1 and part 2

HT as a discipliner for MGS

Violence in Zhanhyi vs. violence in Tianshan

Was HT too pushy with MGS? (ch. 333 extra)

HT with JY vs. HT with MGS

My Tianshan “timeline” and its continuum

You would probably be the most interested in my comparison of Zhanyi and Tianshan when it comes to violence. But I would recommend taking an overall look.

“do you think that tianshans relationship is too violent or do you think that’s just their dynamic”

Whenever it comes to these kinds of questions, I like to keep two things in mind: context and subjectivity. I think context matters when it comes to whatever we’re doing. It doesn’t excuse the things that have been done but it explains them. And if I can understand the reasons/see behind the behavior, to me it changes how I feel about said thing.

Secondly, I’ve found that these kinds of questions are surprisingly subjective. As you said yourself, do I think their relationship is too violent? I don’t think anyone can deny that their relationship has violence in it, but am I bothered by it? We all have different tastes when it comes to fictional dynamics. Some people take issue with the violence in Tianshan, and that’s valid. To them, it’s too much and puts them off. To some other people, it doesn't make them uncomfortable. They are not bothered by it at all. Then there are all the rest (like myself) who are sprinkled somewhere in between the two opposites on the spectrum.

Now, I think that situation is perfectly fine, but issues come up when people start to moralize others who are placed somewhere else on that spectrum than themselves. Thinking Tianshan is (too) violent is perfectly acceptable, but saying things like “you are gross/toxic/messed up for shipping something like Tianshan” isn’t. In my books, at least. (I’m sorry, dear anon, I know you weren't saying anything like that! I just wanted to finish where I was going with all this.)

Anyway, I think those two principles apply to the violence in Tianshan as well.

When it comes to 19 Days, especially, I would say context is quite important. A lot of the humor in the comic is based on the boys physically hurting each other. This goes for Tianshan, too (ch. 150, 160, 170, 256. 281, 298, 339):

MGS slaps and punches HT. HT twists his balls and pushes him down. I get it if that’s not exactly funny to everyone, but it’s still how 19 Days’ comedy works. The characters aren’t left with injuries or trauma; usually the slaps are forgotten and bloody noses healed by the next panel. For the most part, I find the comedic moments funny.

In general, I think the type of comedy that 19 Days has is where the Chinese/Asian and Western fandoms clash culturally. I’m not that familiar with Chinese comedy tropes, but from what I’ve understood it’s not uncommon that teenage boys mess with each other physically like that in Chinese culture. Especially, that whole “twisting the balls” thing. (Please, someone correct me if I’m completely wrong about this! This is just what I’ve heard from non-Western people.)

Other than comedy, context is also important to keep in mind when it comes to other occasions of violence between HT and MGS. I think the best example of this was when HT confronted MGS about his past with SL and got physical with MGS (ch. 295):

I remember there was a lot of fandom discussion about this moment. A lot of people felt like HT had gone back to his old ways and he was forcing MGS again. Ultimately, it was seen as him being abusive and toxic.

And to be fair, I think they were right in saying that HT regressed to his old habits. I would say that was the whole point of that moment. SL lurking around and his veiled threats towards MGS had put HT on edge. He was restless and uneasy about the whole situation. It was made even worse by how he was basically left on the blind side of everything since he didn't know what SL was holding over MGS’s head. So, it wasn’t a surprise that his impatience and uneasiness came out as him using physical strength on MGS.

Again, people who (still) were turned off by HT’s behavior are valid and I can see where they are coming from. But there were reasons as to why HT was behaving in such ways. To some, the reasons don’t matter because they don't change the actions themselves. And they would be correct in saying so, but I think those reasons are still important to keep in mind when interpreting moments like these.

As I said, this topic is also about subjectivity and I put myself somewhere between the two ends of the spectrum. For the most part, I’m not bothered by the violence in Tianshan. I can see its comedic purposes or I’m interested in it for contextual reasons. But there have been occasions when I’ve been somewhat uncomfortable with the violence or that it’s come across needlessly rough to me. (Even if I have understood the context behind it.)

Sometimes I’m a bit taken aback by the roughness of the violence (ch. 138, 222, 234):

These panels always came across a bit extreme to me. I can see the build-up context behind them and understand where the blow-up stemmed from (MGS talking back to HT, and HT pushing MGS’s buttons after he had been worried for HT). But they still make me kinda go “okay... 🥴“. These moments were too much for me, personally, even if Tianshan is my OTP.

There have also been a couple of occasions when HT’s pushiness makes me a bit uncomfortable (ch. 174, 333, 342 [the last translation is by @1154lizz 🖤]):

And again, I see the context behind these moments - HT taking a joke too far, “touch my balls” kind of comedy, and...I guess taking the overall “pushy vs. tsundere” to the extreme. The first two moments I have somewhat gotten more comfortable with later on. I think the first kiss served as a good reflection point for both characters. HT trying to make MGS massage his balls as revenge goes in the overall category of 19 Days humor for me. The last panels are probably the only ones that still make me cringe. I think it’s mostly about how the situation is portrayed because when HT was stripping MGS to go swimming in the earlier chapters it didn't make me uncomfortable at all.

So, when you ask is Tianshan “too violent” or is it “just their dynamic”, I think those two things can coexist. It’s not an either-or situation to me. I would say violence is a part of the Tianshan dynamics. (Violence is also a big part of 19 Days in general.) HT pushes while MGS pulls. And as two strong-willed characters, they also clash a lot. And I love those things about them. That dynamic is partly why I’m drawn to them.

But the violence can still be too much to me or other people. It’s possible that kind of dynamics isn't to someone’s taste in general, and the violence makes them uncomfortable. It’s also possible that occasionally the violence goes too far even if you shipped Tianshan. I don’t think you can say there is some universal level of “this much violence is fine” without making it sound like you’re moralizing. It’s different for everyone. I’m sure some people have been perfectly fine with the things that have made me uncomfortable, and I don't see a problem in that. As a Tianshan shipper, the “it’s so toxic/violent/abusive” discourse can get a bit tiring at times, but as long as we’re talking about the ship (and not the shippers), I think everyone is free to voice their interpretations.

Thank you for your question, dear anon!

#tianshan #19 days #answered ask

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oumakokichi · 4 years ago

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Hello I am the Tsumugi love hotel anon Thank you for answering my ask it's great to know that other people have the same problem Sorry if this sounds strange but it's hard for me to enjoy V3 without thinking about this I love Danganronpa and I like Tsumugi but this really really bothered me And I kinda don't want to assume that someone who created a series I like so much is like this I guess as a fan Do you have any advice? So sorry but I have this habit of overthinking things and just want help

Hi again anon! It’s not a strange question at all; this is sadly kind of a common dilemma to run into in most fandom spaces, and it’s perfectly normal to have conflicting feelings about these things.

The best advice I can give is to view everything through a critical lens. By this, I don’t mean “you can’t ever enjoy things casually” or “you have to hate the media you consume in order to be a Good Fan™.” I simply mean that it’s important to be aware that pretty much all media is going to be flawed on some level, and that it’s important to not brush aside those flaws when having a real discussion about the content we enjoy and consume.

Part of the reason why I love meta and analysis so much is precisely because it’s a really good way to sort through some of these more complicated feelings I have on certain topics. For as much as I love DR and as much as it’s been a huge source of enjoyment and comfort to me for quite a few years now, I’m never going to sit here and act like it doesn’t have its fair share of flaws. It’s certainly not for everyone, and I can completely understand why some people may not like it.

There’s a very fine line when discussing media too, between raising awareness that all media and content we consume is inherently flawed in some way, and simply dismissing it as okay because “well, everything is problematic in some way so it doesn’t matter.” These things do matter, and I feel like discussion of them is a very important part of critical analysis, especially when it raises awareness of potentially upsetting subject matter to people who may have been unaware of it before.

The entire love hotel scene with Tsumugi is undeniably in extremely poor taste, particularly when incest is a very real and terrible form of abuse that real survivors have suffered through. Seeing it used for nothing more than skeevy fanservice to pander to an otaku audience is deeply upsetting, particularly coming from a game that explicitly touches on the ways in which fiction can and does impact reality in very real, tangible ways.

It doesn’t help that the love hotel scenes themselves hang in a weird sort of limbo as far as their role in the game goes, either. There’s been a lot of debate in the fandom as to whether these scenes can even be considered “canon” on any level—and even if they’re not technically canon, which I think is a fair assessment given that none of the other characters even remember them after waking up and they have no real lasting impact on the plot, the decision to include them at all is still gross on some level.

In my personal opinion, the best way to determine how comfortable you are continuing to support a series or not, is to try and gauge authorial intent: why are these topics or themes included in this piece of media? What purpose do they serve? Are they contributing to a larger narrative by being included here?

To take a topical example… let’s compare this with Harry Potter. DR certainly has its flaws, and ndrv3 is no exception. Not only are certain unsavory “tropes” like incest played as either a punchline or a tool for fanservice, but even earlier parts of the series don’t hold up particularly well (like Chihiro’s “gender reveal”). These things are definitely not enjoyable parts of the narrative—but their presence in the narrative seems to stem from a larger issue of fanservice tropes in visual novels and anime overall, rather than some overarching attempt to either demonize any marginalized group or normalize harmful behavior in real life.

By contrast, through watching JK Rowling’s downward spiral on twitter in the last few years, we’ve seen her become more and more brazen about her hatred of trans people, and trans women in particular. Though she often attempted to brush these tweets aside at first as “middle-aged moments” or “accidents” where she wasn’t aware of the content being spouted by the people she was following, she’s become perhaps one of the most unapologetic T*RFs in the public consciousness.

No matter how much a series like Harry Potter may have shaped my and many other people’s childhoods in the past, it’s really impossible for me to go back to it nowadays as a trans individual. Re-reading the series with a much more critical eye shows that many of Rowling’s most harmful, offensive beliefs are not only something she spews on twitter every other month, but also downright woven into the narrative. Lines about “boys pretending to be girls to try and sneak into the dormitories” and Rita Skeeter’s “rather large, mannish hands” while she “disguises herself” to infiltrate the school premises just hit differently, knowing Rowling’s stance on trans issues and the disgusting harm that she advocates for with her huge platform.

I suppose that’s the biggest line I try to be aware of in deciding where I draw the line between enjoying a series while remaining critical of it, and just flat out refusing to support said series anymore. This line is understandably going to be different for different people, no doubt—but I think being mindful of what creators are actually doing with their platforms is the biggest indicator about the potential intentions behind their works.

The only other piece of advice I can think of to offer, and perhaps the most important one, is to simply support small creators with all the enthusiasm and love that you would for a large series. As long as we maintain a critical eye and awareness about the flaws within popular works like Danganronpa, I think it’s okay to keep enjoying said works. But there are so many content creators out there trying to contribute all kinds of meaningful works with better representation than anything we’ve seen in mainstream media, and it’s incredibly important to support these people so that their works can become better-known.

My best recommendation is to make sure you’re striving to support these smaller content creators: especially black artists and trans artists, who often get overlooked even when hashtags on twitter to support smaller artists are trending.

This sort of became a lengthier response than I was intending, but I felt your question deserved more of an in-depth look at the topic. I hope I was able to get my points across! Thank you for the question anon, and I really hope I could help.

#ask #anonymous #incest //#transphobia //

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kanaiekla · 4 years ago

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I don't want to make this too long, but a lot has happened today and I'm too physically exhausted due to dieting for me to explain all of this bullshit, lol.

Getting to the point entirely, I do not like hate anons. They are disgusting and they only exist to make things worse for people who didn't do anything wrong. And today, me and my friend @nebulous-rain got some of these. So here's the entire thing. Earlier today, Neb (as I am calling her in here to make this easier), got a hate anon, which consisted of this.

https://nebulous-rain.tumblr.com/post/623917082984267776/your-art-is-so-fucking-atrocious-stop-posting-and

(screenshot below in case the link doesn’t work!)

Of course, this is, well, called being an asshole.

Neb answered maturely and well, in a super funny way HAHAHA, and that was that. Stragenly enough though, I happened to get anon hate around the exact same time. Except this time, it wasn’t on anon. Instead, we got her actual account. And that account is @amour-mistress, who I can’t properly tag because they blocked me. They sent this to me today.

I already answered this, as maturely as I can, but I’m going to clarify for those who doesn’t know about my fic.

My story, Prophetic Love, has Arthur as a quiet and traumatized man. This is because he’s abused by Mordred (who’s ??? but I made him as a person.) In the story, Mordred hurts Arthur, whether it be mentally or physically, and Arthur has shown every single time that he hates Mordred. He finds Mordred disgusting and he wants to stay as far from him as possible. Arthur always feels at peace, happy, and safe with Lewis and Vivi, and the story is about Arthur’s love for them and vice versa, so it’s Lewvithur.

I wanted to clarify this because I do NOT condone abuse in any way in real life. And if it’s written in a sexual way in any type of fan work, I will definitely not read it because that’s disgusting. Abuse should NEVER be sexy or charming. This is why I put tag warnings for blood/abuse/etc in the fic. If someone doesn’t wanna read something that triggers them, then I understand, and they can go.

But anyways, BACK TO THE POINT.

I found it VERY coincidental that me and Neb got two hate messages in the same day. And it was only made more clear when I asked if the haters were the same person. That’s when I got this from them.

They stated that they truly were the anon who sent Neb hate. Why they sent their hate anonymously to her and not to me, I literally have no idea. Also, there’s a difference between bullying and a opinion, person. And so, the conversation continues as follows.

My tags aren’t “excuses.” They’re WARNINGS so people don’t get triggered while reading it. ALSO, seriously? If you really didn’t like her art all like that, you would have said it a lot kinder. At least “I’m not a fan of your art, but congrats on the followers and likes” and just move on with it. But anyways, continuing...

(my message, continuing below.)

Ah, yes, the #cupcest thing. This is a disgusting incestuous ship in the Cuphead: Don’t Deal With The Devil fandom. I never played the game but it looks great to me, but if there’s one thing I know, it’s that the two characters in the game, Cuphead and Mugman, are BROTHERS. So immediately, this is a red flag. Want proof of this? Here.

(a screenshot Neb provided. you can see #cupcest right under their name.)

They don’t have any posts on their blog, so I assume they probably deleted all of the #cupcest stuff they probably had. In other words, this is super gross and honestly if you ship two obvious brothers together then please get the hell off of my blog lmao.

Now I tried to think “okay this person is bad, but maybe they did a #cupcest thing to call that bullshit out?” But given how nasty they are, their general behavior, I had a lot of doubts. But it became MUCH clearer to me when the next thing the person said was THIS.

(”love is love.” how much more of a disgusting prick can you get? no thanks. not only are they an asshole, but they like fucking incest of all things. seriously.)

(their message continues below.)

The rape thing? HIGHLY unnecessary. This whole opinion thing is just a way to justify their behavior. And that’s just gross. Before I could message them though, they blocked me, so I couldn’t get my argument across. Not that I would even bother giving a damn about it. All of this was nothing compared to the conversation they had with Neb. Oh boy... Neb was able to give me screenshots of what happened, so here we go.

It seems that this person completed DODGED the whole cupcest thing here. But anyways, it’s kinda of bold for them to assume that they were hurting Neb’s feelings. It would be easier if they would just be kind about it, but they weren’t. If anything they’re just showing that they know they’re being an asshole. But, to continue...

Criticism isn’t being a dick, but okay. Go get em, Neb.

There’s so many things wrong with this message. Wow. First of all, the usage of the N-word that I had to censor. Seriously. Also, again, expressing yourself doesn’t mean you have to be an asshole to someone who didn’t do anything wrong. THIRDLY, how are we abusers? Neb is making art for my fic doesn’t mean anything, other than her doing something lovely and nice for me. Not to mention, that picture is Arthur punching Mordred in the face. He deserves it. AND ALSO, you’re the one cyberbullying here, by causing all of this drama in the first place, thinking Neb was bullying you, and then making this whole mess spiral out of control by threatening her with screenshots you can’t prove to her being a jerk.

How dare you, person? Neb is a growing artist and while it’s your “opinion”, Neb’s art is beautiful and colorful to me and her followers. If you don’t like it, you shouldn’t have started this WHOLE ordeal in the first place. The only thing you’re doing is spreading lies, hate, and a shitty attempt at defaming the both of us. How can one talk about hating abuse and yet this is the exact thing she’s doing here, to a SUPER KIND TEENAGE ARTIST nonetheless?

This kind of behavior is disgusting, and it should NOT be tolerated on this site. So everyone, thank you for the likes/reblogs of my story and Neb’s art, and keep liking/reblogging her stuff too! She deserves it and her art is incredible!!! She’s kind and wonderful and doesn’t deserve any of this. I can handle hate and I know she can too, but this bullshittery shouldn’t stand anyways.

Be sure to block and report amoura-mistress. Let’s keep this platform, and the MSA fandom in general, filled with kindess and love.

#kanai speaks #callout #callout post #mystery skulls animated #mystery skulls #MSA #nebulous-rain #tw: racial slur #tw: rape mention #tw: general bullying #i sHIT YOU NOT BUT THIS IS RIDICULOUS IM KHFDHKHKFKHFD #LIKE SOMEONE i aM BEGGING JUST #dONT GIVE THEM TIME OR ENERGY #HHHHH

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natsunoomoi · 4 years ago

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Diving Further In

So just going deeper into this SVSSS rabbit hole. Still in earlier chapters because I work, but just poking around online again because again I really just like looking at Shen Qingqiu’s face and also Liu Qingge’s look isn’t so bad either.

But like I came across some stuff that’s spoilers for me and it said that they are a popular ship together? But like also a lot of people question if Qingge is straight which the author said and I found curious that a lot of people seem to dispute that? So then I looked more and it seems people are citing an extra story where the two of them go to fight some succubi in a cave. I read the story, and I don’t really see it myself? Like I can see how some people could read that it implies that he is actually interested in Shen Qingqiu and maybe a little jealous, but also I can also see how it doesn’t necessarily and also aligns with the author saying that he is straight. This isn’t to say that I want to kill anyone’s ship or anything, but just want to point out how what MXTX is saying isn’t exactly crazy either.

I’m not really sure, but I think it might be because I’m asexual myself so even my own experience going through life there’s a lot of things that maybe other people who aren’t ace interpret as more romantic that I don’t think so at all and it’s gotten me in trouble sometimes where I feel like I’m just having pleasant conversation with people but people think I’m flirting? I’m just being nice and talking? I don’t understand?

But just the same like even for me if someone says something that could possibly suggest that I’m involved in something or that I like someone even if I don’t, I still get flustered and blush because people are talking about my private life even if I don’t actually like the person. And then they become convinced that that’s the person I like because I’m blushing as we are having a conversation about if I like someone.

Like truthfully, in the 4th grade I had an interaction with a classmate that I had that I thought I had an amicable friendship with. During the first week or so of school a bee came into the classroom and landed on my desk and my classmate killed it for me and I was scared and eternally grateful, so at a later date later I gave him like a small gift or something as a thank you. My classmates thought it meant I liked him or something and I was VERY CONFUSED. I was literally just grateful for the help with the bee and he’s always been kind and helpful to me in class so I didn’t really think anything of it, and just simply you do nice things for people who are nice to you right? It’s a very simple and pure thought, but I learned from that experience and misunderstanding that normally people don’t do that for people who are just your friends. I think they also thought I did because apparently I was staring at him a lot when we were on a field trip, but like during the field trip he was also goofing around and jumping on the bus and stuff. How do you not look at someone making a ruckus?

So basically, in reading the succubus story, I kind of thought about something like that for Qingge. Like if I were him, I would be a little surprised also that the description sounded a bit like me and like I’m sure just as Shen Qingqiu is going through all the women he knows, Qingge is also running through all the people who knows that Qingqiu hangs out with and realizes that he is with him an awful lot. I’m somewhat serious as well, and even though I’m focused on getting the job done, it’s not like I’m not trying to look out for my friends and their interests so I’d want to still listen too to learn more about them as a friend and even to find out how I can be a better friend to them or like encourage them in the future. Plus like nothing else was happening in the cave, so you just get bored and listen to what's happening. Same as me on the field trip. Space out staring out the window or turn in the direction of the commotion on the bus.

I also think that part of Qingge’s alarm is that the succubus mentions that the person is his junior, and I think most people would normally exclude anyone who was a student or disciple of theirs. He probably didn’t even consider someone who was from a younger generation as he was running through the list of people in his mind, and the description does sound like him and to me it reads like because he is straight and doesn’t think of his friend in that way exactly, he’s having a kind of panic attack and questioning himself internally trying to discern if it is him and his own feelings. But at the same time, he doesn’t want to say any more or explain himself because its not like he wants to be mean to his friend either.

Like I’ve had times like that too where people apparently maybe liked me, but I just didn’t like them that way or I was emotionally unavailable because I liked someone else. And then when you’re in grade school you do those fortune telling games where you write the names of different boys in your class and stuff and it’s not serious, but sometimes you don’t want to be mean if like the fortune tells you it matched you to one person or another. Like even if you’re friends and it’s just that you don’t feel them that way, if you played that game and got matched with them and then shouted, “Eww! Gross!” Isn’t that awful? So like, I think he thought that the succubus was talking about him, so he said it was inaccurate, but also just like got really flustered because it’s a private topic like I would, but at the same time tried to keep his eye on the ball and complete the mission while also balancing trying to not to be a dick to his friend. Like even asking the other questions to me sounds like panicking and trying to find out more info to check if it is him, because he isn’t aware of Binghe’s future either. It’s kind of a mess of emotions and trying to balance everything he’s taking in his actual personal feelings and trying not to offend his friend. All that together I think would make me embarrassed and give me a stormy look too.

So I dunno, I kind of feel like if I was in his place I would react much the same even if I didn’t have feelings for Qingqiu. The idea of Qingge being straight sounds totally reasonable to me, and Qingge is like the traditionally virtuous macho guy of Chinese lit. Incredible martial skill and stoic and very work-oriented. Like I like looking at Qingqiu’s face a lot, but when I was young a stoic and work-oriented guy like Qingge was my ideal man because I thought they would never cheat on me because they would have the self-control to keep it in their pants. As I got older I started to realize that such a person was not actually realistic and I became disappointed as I came into middle school and realized my ideal was most likely a Buddhist monk who could not get married to my utter disappointment. A lot of other characters I like in my fandom often have the same trait where they canonically don’t seem to show any kind of attraction to almost anyone really because of my fear. Guys who chase skirts all the time are the least appealing to me.

But like also, Qingge being the stereotypical manly man kind of character leads me to remember other stuff about Chinese culture as well that maybe blur the lines that perhaps other readers don’t pick up on because it’s not part of their culture? Like Chinese culture is very heavily influenced by Confucianism and even more classic lit that has a history that actually pre-dates Confucianism is written to have a Confucianism bent because it was a popular thing by the time it was actually written down to paper. It was already so pervasive in society by that time so there’s a lot of stories where we don’t know their “original form” but the Confucian ideas in it are highly influential and if that story is particularly notable or influential in itself, it trickles and affects the thoughts and ideas of the entire culture and all of our stories. Like Journey to the West is probably one of the most influential of the classics in all of East Asia, and while it’s mostly a Buddhist allegory, it does have bits and pieces of Confucianism in it and upholds the cardinal relationships. All this is to say, that this philosophy is pervasive and needs to be taken into consideration if we’re looking at how people behave in a Chinese story. Sometimes character actions can be affected by it, and sometimes they’re not. Binghe being a stallion novel protagonist with a traumatic past that involves demons is probably way beyond the scope of Confucius’ ideas, but Qingge being the traditional man’s man so to speak, absolutely falls within it. He is that kind of character because he follows those ideals and mannerisms.

That is important because Confucianism highlights very strongly loyalty. It comes in the form of filial piety and so on and so forth, but being loyal to your community, your ruler/boss, your family, and so on was really important. Spousal loyalty you can throw a side eye at and question because it’s mostly only one way if we wanna be real, but even though it was one way there was a prescribed way to behave still. So then some people kind of criticized Qingge’s sexuality because he dedicated himself for so long to doing something for Qingqiu. But that like doesn’t necessarily mean anything either because of loyalty to help your friends or someone who specifically helped you or even to your clan/sect/family especially which Qingqiu falls into. You do that for people you have obligations to. Bear in mind, I also gave an actual gift to a boy who just saved me from a bee landing on my desk and had all of my classmates completely misunderstand that, so Qingge’s meta situation is a mood for me.

The other thing is, what is considered to be acceptable male behavior is probably a lot wider traditionally in Chinese society also because of Confucianism. Specifically because Confucius was very, VERY, misogynistic. There’s a lot of merit to think about into the things he thought about for some bases of the cardinal relationships, but any time he delved into anything regarding gender relations he was pretty much full of shit. Like in principle, a ruler is the head and the ministers under the ruler are like the body making the ideas from the head happen. That sounds like a pretty sound metaphor to how to run a country or a company even. Like maybe if you’re the CEO as the head of the company you don’t do something that benefits your head only and spites your workers equivalent to like cutting off your own feet (like making them work if they have coronavirus). That sounds like a horrible way to keep your company going, right? How would a "body" last and succeed without feet? (It should be noted that this metaphor also works for why Binghe's punishment of the original Qingqiu via human stick was super appropriate for his mistreatment because disciple Binghe was a subordinate and should have been treated better according to the rights). So Confucius’ ideas in things like that seemed pretty reasonable. His ideas on women, however, were not.

As a base, we should probably start with Taoism which is the source of all the cultivation lore in this book anyway. But the very simplest and most well-known symbol from Taoism is the yin-yang symbol. Yang is a positive male energy and yin is a negative female energy. Positive and negative are not actually good vs evil in terms of contrast, but are more like photons and electrons. Just two kinds of energies that coexist in the world and create a balance and cannot fully stand on their own without the other, and there’s a little bit of each in each one. Black is not pure black, but has a little white. White is not pure white, but has a bit of white, so basically nothing is perfect. This alone could be misogynistic too, but not necessarily. Depends on how much a person runs with that.

Confucius really ran with it though. He really thought and it was popularized that women were “inherently evil” because of their genitalia. Absolutely full of shit, but I think he was trying to point out how a lot of men act the fool over trying to chase skirts and get laid. It’s really shitty that he blames women for just inherently being temptresses just because they have that genitalia and it spreads to their overall oppression and lack of rights, but at the same time he does to an extent tell men to be accountable for falling into the temptation. Dalliance with women was only necessary to continue the family line and otherwise was thought should be avoided because our ladies are just too tempting and distracting. He warns men to stay away and control themselves, but unhappily for the wrong reasons. With that backdrop, he even went as far as to say that sex between men was better than with a woman because well, you’re not messing with that “evil”. In that respect, he heavily, HEAVILY encouraged relationships with other men and boys clubs including ones where people get drunk and make paintings and poetry with each other. So some level of intimate closeness between even straight men was normal too, so you have to kind of alter your perspective to look at this and find "signals".

These kinds of teachings were thought of to an extent in China, but didn’t really affect the LGBT scene of ancient China because the filial piety part of ensuring the next generation was top priority. Homosexuality as a word even didn’t exist in the Chinese language until more modern times as an import from Japan because the above teachings we just discussed *really* took off in Japan where I guess filial piety was less important. A huge amount of pre-modern same-sex lit came out of Japan including lover suicide themes because damn, I love you so much but we can’t be together because one of us isn’t a woman and we have obligations. Let’s drown ourselves in the river and hope in the next life we can be reincarnated together as a couple that can actually consummate our love. This was a thing in Japan. Onnagata in Kabuki were also to an extent another level and extension of this. In China, it wasn’t like same-sex relationships didn’t happen, but it wasn’t openly discussed because of filial piety. Generally everyone just got married and basically had a cover family and after you had a child to pass on the family legacy, people could not care less what you did privately. If you can imagine it, there were likely some shady dealings here and there with how to deal with this problem too because I can’t imagine that everyone was really down with forcing themselves to be intimate with someone no matter how much they wanted to get their parents off their back, but that kind of family secret was probably deeply buried. It’s also not like people didn’t talk at all about relations with the same sex because people looked at temples with a bunch of men together all practicing Buddhism and thought surely something must be happening, but obviously none of that would be officially recorded or openly discussed. The whole scene was just under the surface and not talked about because it was important to keep appearances and the appearance was that you had an actual family and fulfilled your filial duty. It’s only been recently where the idea of homosexuality as an orientation and being talked about openly as something beyond a secret you do after fulfilling your family obligations, and that’s why the word had to be imported in in modern times.

So with all that in mind, actual bromances that aren’t even actually romantic at all between straight men totally seems normal in the context of this culture. Relationships with other men were very highly valued, and if Qingge is a basically traditionally perfect Chinese man he would basically follow this ideal and would likely have some behavioral traits that seem questionable to a modern audience.

I would also think Confucius would have a problem with romantic relationships between a master and disciple. It's thought to usually be similar to a surrogate parent-child situation, so awkward. But original Qingqiu had some designs on Yingying and while that's kind of a violation-ish too, Yingying is also female and you're expected to obey your father, husband, and son so eh.... not that weird because they aren't actually family. The specifics of two men though is a different matter not commonly discussed obviously. Generally you sought a master to better yourself and grow virtue, but if you start a romantic relationship with them it equalizes your dynamic and they become more of a peer than someone you learn from, so in Qingge's mind because he is traditionally virtuous Binghe was likely not on the radar at all because why would anyone mess with that mentor-student relationship? It has to be from among the other leaders in their sect that the succubus is talking about to his mind.

This is probably circular, but I’ve been writing this up for over an hour late at night. XD

Sources: life, heritage, reading classic lit books, and at least 3 courses discussing gender representation in East Asia at UCI (arguably almost all my coursework covered these ideas to a degree)

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abyssalhowl · 4 years ago

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What do you like about roleplaying in a group?

Hi Anon! I hope you don’t mind if I answer this publicly because a few indies have followed me on two of my blogs and they might be curious as well. Also, I would like to point out that I’m indie-selective. If you’re an indie blog and I follow you back I’m interested in rping with you, so HMU. I’m just not super good at reaching out to people.

I should probably start off by saying that I’m SUPER new to rping. I started rping my very first character this year in April, so I only have 4 months of experience under my belt and most of it is in Isola. That being said, the people here have made me feel so welcome that I’ve apped two other characters in that short time! I’m a really socially anxious person, so this feels somewhat surreal to me.

I expressed an interest in rping my first character to my friend who had been doing this for years, and she pointed me to Isola. Originally, I joined this group for two reasons; the first is because my friend was already part of this group and she doesn’t do indie anymore. The second reason is because the initial character I wanted to play is an underage non-human. When I looked around, I saw some people perceiving or treating him as older than his mental age, and that made me really uncomfortable. I suppose if I was indie, I could just block them, but in Isola they have strict rules against anything sexually NSFW involving minors and I didn’t even want to deal with anyone sending anything gross my way before having to block them. It’s really this rule specifically that made me comfortable enough to rp in the first place.

My two other muses are of age, but now I rp in Isola because I really like the setting and the chance for my characters to grow beyond their canon. Stripping characters of their powers and throwing them all together into a big city I feel is a good way to bring characters back to their basics. My muses can also get jobs, start their own businesses, or go to places they would never be able to in their own world. Oh, and the events are great! The mods create scenarios for us in which we basically play out AUs, or there’s some huge fight taking place throughout the city. It’s fun and challenging to write out a scenario that never would have happened in my character’s own world.

Being a multi-fandom setting, my muses have interacted with other characters I never would have thought of rping with. I’ve had so many good, fun, and cute interactions just because someone liked my starter call. I’ve said earlier that I’m pretty anxious when it comes to reaching out to people, but the group setting makes it so easy to start threads.

As for character growth, I’ve plotted out something with my friend who has a muse from a whole different series where they eventually become a parental figure to my character. I really like the possibilities for positive development this opens up for my character, as the end of his series left him in a bad way. His original “parent” sucked and there’s not really a character in his own series that would be parental towards him. Plus, both of these characters have had similar life experiences and I feel like rping him talking about it with someone who understands would really help him grow beyond where his canon left him. As for my two other muses, one of them wanted to explore new worlds and meet new people; this setting is giving him a chance to do that. I’m also personally amused that I get to play a house-sized wolf in modern/futuristic setting.

TLDR;

Rping in a group definitely isn’t preventing me from rping with indies, but for the most part I prefer it because: there’s rules that prevent unwanted behaviors, I like the opportunities it provides in terms of character interactions/growth, and I feel a greater sense of community here.

#ooc #anon #ask #long post #looks like someone else got this ask too?#Anonymous

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1ddiscourseoftheday · 6 years ago

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Mon 1 Apr

Update theme of the day, me being cranky! We have entitled people treating Harry like an object, and reckless massaging of logic, two things that really chap my hide! April fools, the joke is on anyone who follows me for, well, jokes. Better luck tomorrow. Well let's get it over with...

First up, the Incident with Harry- I laughed about the stalkers getting in a fight in front of him in NY but even that was kind of a bummer honestly, and it turns out the reality was even worse. In fact, a jet lagged Harry came out of the restaurant where he had dinner after his big event, probably dead on his stylishly shod feet at this point, to a small crowd of fans. He understandably said he wasn't up for pictures, sad but okay it happens: at this point one of the fans STARTS YELLING AT HIM about it and condescendingly calls him "sweetie" in a tone that honestly makes me want to smack her. Poor Harry, not being a jerk unlike me I would snap and knowing it'd probably make international headlines if he refused, then has to smile for pictures cheek to cheek with these entitled creeps. The whole display is gross as hell, the idea that people feel such entitlement to anyone's time or body, regardless of their status as, for example, a celebrity; I think it would do (mostly female) fandom some real good to reflect on the ways it parallels female oppression and consider how being treated like an object who owes your body or smile to someone for any reason makes you feel. Is catcalling or grabbing strangers or pressuring in the face of a clear no ever okay? Is it something that's okay to do to men or to famous people just because the dynamic of oppression is different? Or do we want to be better than that rather than just flipping the roles? I know for sure that I at least want these particular boys who I care for to be treated with more respect than that.

Of course, there's more than simple interpersonal dynamics at play here- the chances are high that those fans were told where to wait for Harry by HSHQ, which would have fueled their sense of entitlement, as has been seen over and over again. The boys' management absolutely have power over what kind of behavior is tolerated- if they really started denying access to more people who behave badly, rather than continuing to invite them places and give them gifts, that behavior would stop. It's upsetting that that continues to not be a priority.

AND THAT'S NOT ALL I have even more ranting for you today! I didn't comment a lot on the NYC lousquatch vid cause I didn't really think it warranted it but it's still a hot topic and today people were going around saying that the pics of Louis at the footie game Sat were from an earlier date and were posted now to hide the fact that he was in NY so okay fine. Listen. Are you suggesting that the Hadley official football club AND the opposing team posted pictures on their official Facebook pages of a match that took place at a different time claiming it was the previous day's match and that just... worked? That no-one who follows them thought that was strange? Did they play a whole match that was kept secret to make this possible now? I think people are underestimating the football fandom and overestimating the extent to which LTHQ can manipulate the world, but okay, it was a small footie league I guess anything is possible, I'll keep going. The NYC video is of someone being papped which would be a very odd choice for a Louis who was theoretically sneaking around to be in NY and is honestly the biggest argument against for me, the person in the video is entering a different restaurant than the one Harry was seen exiting, video OP is a creep and a troll but even he said it wasn't Louis, the guy in the video was imo too skinny to be Louis, Harry flew home as quickly as possible alone on a public flight, and no, time zones and flight times do not really allow for Louis to have been in NYC the evening of the 29th and at that game the afternoon of the 30th.... Like yeah, maaaybe it's technically possible and I can muster up arguments to combat most of this but they require a lot of wild maybes and none of them remotely allow for the possibility that Louis is genuinely taking some time off for self care which I hope to god is the case, and I gotta say I think the simpler explanation is a lot more likely; that Louis is in London. And so is Harry now, after pretty obviously running himself completely ragged to manage that. And while Harry was gone Oli and Louis went out for the day. Anyway now more pics of Lou from that day are popping up so you would think it'd be a moot point but I thought that yesterday too AND I just saw someone wondering if the new ones were photoshopped so I'm just gonna leave this here.

Anyway the only funny thing I have today is imagining Louis' dismay at Pizza Hut calling him "fineapple", after his least favorite pizza topping. There's probably a topping joke to be made in there but despite what the rest of this post may make you think I'm not actually trying to get blocked by everyone in this fandom so I'll just let that one go by...

Meanwhile Niall was papped in London looking smoking hot tbh, but like Niall DO YOU MIND I'M BUSY WITH OTHER STUFF TODAY go be visible tomorrow!!

#Harry styles #Louis Tomlinson #they kind of share that pineapple anyway #the fan who yelled at Harry felt that he owed them because he was rich #leaving aside the fact that someone who flew from Arizona to NY to see him is not exactly poverty stricken #was she right? do the rich owe us?#while i DO in fact believe that #i mean it on a systemic level #making systemic change is very different than harassing individuals #but more importantly i don't want to be part of any movement for change that just flips the script rather then being better #better people with love and justice in our hearts. otherwise you just get zionism #i don't want the poor to rise up and oppress anyone i want things to be DIFFERENT #wow i REALLY feel like this should be my April fools joke but the jokes on you today you get sj rant with your updates HAHAHA SORRY #Harry #Louis #lousquatch #hshq #the lads #Niall #paps #meanwhile Niall #Hadley Rangers #yeah that's right this tiny random footie club had a tag now #i imagine Oli just googled where's there a footie match in London today and they went to that but who knows #i can't believe i dropped the ball and didn't make a separate April fools post to post at the same time 😭😭😭 it could have been amazing #i am the boo boo the fool here truly I'm filled with regret #1 apr 19 #long post #do they owe us a living? OF COURSE THEY FUCKING DO

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questionablygourmet · 5 years ago

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Rewatch meta: mirrors, connections, and intrusion in Aperitif & Amuse-Bouche

This is the first of what is intended to be a series of analytical posts based on what sticks out to me as I do a close rewatch of the show, roughly 1-3 episodes at a time. This first one will mainly focus on the introduction of major motifs and thematic elements in the show; future posts may follow in that vein or just whatever else about the episodes gets me thinking.

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One of the aspects of the show that makes it such a vibrant experience, and lends vibrancy in turn to analysis and transformative works in fandom is its rich use of motif in how it communicates what is important and what is going on with the characters and in the narrative. The first two episodes are set up: they present to us the main characters along with the essentials of who they are, and they’re the opening sally of (some of) major themes and motifs.

Mirrors

Okay, the first thing I’m going to talk about here is not actually the aspect that got it included in this section, but I must: right before our very first look at Hannibal Lecter, we pan up his table and see fruit on a platter, mirrored in the polished surface of the wood. The fruit was the first thing that caught my eye, because of course it did, pomegranates being a pervasive motif in the fandom, and it’s an interesting layout: there are strong mythological associations for pomegranate (Hades & Persephone, etc) and figs (Dionysus, etc). Strawberries, somewhat less so; they are often associated with love, fertility, and/or new life, but in a less obvious-in-modern-pop-culture fashion.

So. An aesthetically beautiful array of fruit as a perfect symbolic introduction to the character of Hannibal! ... and then its mirror image in the shine of the table. Mirrors/the concept of mirroring will become a huge Thing specifically between Hannibal and Will over the course of the series. We also get “the mirrors in your mind can reflect the best of yourself, rather than the worst of someone else,” which honestly is a line that fascinates me in context of how, in seasons 2-3, the idea of Will and Hannibal blurring together, being mirror images to each other/two sides to a coin gets played with and explored.

The irony here is that Hannibal really does want Will to be his authentic self - yet by the end of the series, whatever it may or may not have been Before (”Before you, and after you”), Will’s authentic self is in many ways a sort of mirror to Hannibal. An answer to the question of Hannibal, as much as Hannibal is an answer to the question of Will.

Connection

So the really obvious place this comes out in a big way is with the killer du jour for episode 2 - Stammets’s whole schtick is that he’s obsessed with creating gardens of physical connections between people in the form of his creepy (and GROSS, honestly this is the grossest episode in the show for me) mushroom graves.

But really, this is also ultimately one of the deepest-running themes of the show. It’s central to our Murder Husbands, both of them profoundly isolated from the rest of humanity until they find each other. It’s front-and-center with Franklyn and Tobias, both wanting to reach out to Hannibal (and Franklyn also to Tobias), and him having none of it. And it’s necessarily fundamental to all the other interpersonal relationships, in the explicit variation of how mutual a given connection between characters is (and often, the contrast in how each of them perceives that connection - “Could I ever have understood you?” “No.”).

And it’s more subtly emphasized in these two episodes as we’re being introduced to and developing an understanding of how Will works as an investigator.

“You make jumps you can’t explain.” “The *evidence* explains.”

“Associations come quickly.”

I roll my eyes every single time Hannibal says “pure empathy” in the show because while, yes, Will has plenty of empathy, as he protests to Jack in the very first scene, the point is he has an active imagination, and applies it to the evidence. Will is so good at what he does because he makes connections between general knowledge he has and details of the crime scenes that seem strange or even nonsensical to others. Antler velvet in the wounds? Well, what do I know about antler velvet? And then that knowledge he has about it promoting healing probably later supports his assertion that the killer experiences some form of love for his victims.

(It didn’t seem to fit in well in the earlier section, but the mirror motif also comes into play with the Shrike case in that the first Copycat murder is a distorted reflection of what the Shrike does, for the purposes of making the essential elements of the Shrike murders stand out more starkly to Will.)

In the Stammets case, his mental reconstruction at the crime scene itself is literally just a review of what they’ve already been able to conclude from the physical evidence, plus the inference that it’s not important to the killer that his victims be aware that they were dying, which is a fairly obvious one to make given the lack of restraints. Then, when they’re discussing it in the lab and cause of death has been determined, he’s able to do more with the information - he’s able to determine the how of the victims’ docile interment and from then it’s a quick series of fairly obvious jumps to who the killer must be.

Finally, the debut of the Ravenstag is the result of the sudden, vivid connection Will’s mind has made from the imagery of the Copycat scene - crows and a stag’s head, a murder and a message. The Ravenstag will go on to embody the spectre of death, an omen, but also in some ways a guardian.

Intrusion

Hoo boy is this show ever about that, and these episodes certainly do get off to a running start on this theme.

First of all, just about everyone and everything intruding on Will. There’s Jack in his classroom, there’s Hannibal in Jack’s office and then Will’s motel room, there’s Beverly in Elise Nichols’s room and then again (slightly less unwelcome) at the range, there’s Freddie Being Freddie, and then there’s his hallucinations.

We explicitly discuss the intrusive nature in which Will experiences his work:

“Fear is the price of imagination.”

“No forts in the bone arena of your skull for the things you love.”

And then we start to see the basis for Will’s trust in Hannibal start to form has Hannibal backs off in episode 2. He lets Will roam about the mezzanine of his office (literally circling Hannibal, and part of me wanted to talk about lions because of that and the line with Franklyn, but that felt like stretching a bit too much) while he stays below, gives answers to the questions Will lobs back at him, becomes someone who will push just enough to show concern and interest, but will gracefully retreat into safer waters at the right moment rather than press for ever more.

It’s beautiful and infuriating to me that this is both the truth and the smokescreen for actions that make it also a farce - Will and Hannibal’s relationship is characterized both by a strong, genuine interpersonal courtesy and a staggering degree of intrusion (mostly by Hannibal, though Will has his moments), and these things can and do frequently exist fully side by side.

The other notable single target of intrusion in these episodes is, of course, Hannibal.

Something I didn’t really consciously grok on my first couple of watchings of Jack and Hannibal’s first scene together is that while Jack is trying to flatter Hannibal rather than intimidate/command (as he was doing with Will), Jack is still being very nearly as pushy and invasive as he was in his first scene with Will: shows up unannounced, assumes Hannibal will make time for him without stating his purpose in being there (I love how visibly taken-aback he is when Hannibal tells him to wait in the damn waiting room), then wanders around Hannibal’s office and messes with his drawings while casually talking about Hannibal’s personal history before he ever gets around to The Point. Yes, Hannibal’s eventually pleased as punch with the results of that visit, but Jack’s behavior is what it is.

Then there’s Freddie (oh, Freddie), who will continue to be a wildly intrusive presence in his life over the next few years in various ways. And then there’s Will, himself, pushing back when Hannibal asks questions in their office sessions - and who will ultimately be The One True Intrusion, the destabilizing element that will cause Hannibal to tear his life as he knows it to the ground.

There are other ways this theme can be discussed in the context of these two episodes, but I’ve hit the main points I meant to and this has gotten lengthy enough already!

(Below the cut, for your potential amusement, a smattering of my notes from rewatching that didn’t necessarily make it into this.)

JACK DON'T TOUCH PEOPLE'S GLASSES

I will never get over the irony of "You have to convince yourself that the lion is not in the room. When it is I assure you, you will know."

pURe EMpatHY

ahh yes, the Teleporting Cannibal Episode

"I'd rather not take it from you" - have to wonder how much Freddie remembered that statement later, as she was starting to wonder if Hannibal might be killing with Will

And here's our first mention of God enjoying killing.

#hannibal #aperitif #amuse bouche #season 1 #meta #my meta #rewatch meta series #hannibal lecter #will graham #jack crawford

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panickedpansexualprincess · 5 years ago

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(1/5) I’ve never interacted with you and you have me blocked but I was going to explain why pansexuality is inherently biphobic. You said it yourself they’re the same thing so if they are the same thing what is the point in iding as pan over bi? Well this generally boils down to two different reasons. First we should define biphobia. Biphobia is discrimination or hatred towards bi people, this can look like a couple things such as discomfort with bisexuality or the perpetuation of negative

stereotypes. So why do we identify as pansexual instead of bi if they’re the same thing?

1. Pansexuality feels more comfortable. Well this would suggest a discomfort with bisexuality which is biphobic in and of itself. This is the characterization of internalized biphobia.

2. People, especially straight people, view bisexuality as liking two genders, which is transphobic or that bisexuality is described as promiscuous, sexual, and gender obsessed.

First of all, none of these stereotypes are true and to create a separate sexuality because you are uncomfortable with these stereotypes effectively makes it seem like you accept them as true and validated biphobes claims. It screams of virtue signaling, The solution to dealing with biphobia is not to make an entirely new word for bisexuality, it’s to correct it and educate biphobes and fight against it.

Pansexuality does not do that. Pansexuality actively perpetuates these negative stereotypes which is in and of itself biphobic. That’s why pansexuality is biphobic. They mean the same thing except pansexuality has the added bonus of perpetuating biphobia.

Also sure you have the right to use whatever labels you please, however, when bi people call you out for being biphobic, because that’s what you are doing by identifying as pan, don’t get mad. Bi/pan solidarity is a mask used to deter bi people from speaking up against biphobia. It’s about silencing us and almost primarily used by pan people. Bisexuals do not have to stay silent or stay kind in the face of your biphobia, that is not required or necessary of us and it’s biphobic to try and silence us too.

Also as a side note, the word transgendered which you used a million times is transphobic.

1. Whether or not we’ve interacted, if you’ve posted blanket claims about pansexuality being inherently biphobic using the ‘pansexuality’ tag, that is likely the reason I have you blocked. I track the tag, and thus get random posts from it on my dash on a regular basis. Despite the discourse I attempted to have earlier today, I’ve been trying to be better about not picking internet fights, and have blocked such posts/posters on my dash when I was in a bad mental place, or was otherwise not willing/able to deal with panphobia at that point in time.

2. I have not used the word ‘transgendered’ a million times. I just checked myself (as I often do in situations like this, because I never want to perpetuate phobic behaviors), and looking through my transgender tag, I have used it once recently. It was a typo, one for which I apologize and will correct in a moment. That said, do not put words in my mouth or use such gross hyperboles please; it does neither of us any favors.

3. Alright. Let me try and find where to even begin with the rest of this.

The existence of pansexuality as a label does NOT enforce stereotypes about bisexuality being limited to two genders, or transphobic, or promiscuous, sexual, or gender obsessed.

I won’t deny that there are bigoted assholes who will try to claim shit like that, because I have run into plenty of them. I have had knock down, drag out, shouting and cursing fights with such assholes, because whatever label I personally prefer, I refuse to allow such stereotypes about bisexuality to stand. Like, my poor wife has had a front row seat to my fights with biphobes, and is probably long tired of my anger as I pick far too many fights with such prejudiced biphobic idiots. (Seriously, I’m sure she’s tired of it, because she’s usually the one who tries to calm me down or pull me back from such assholes, because winning against those people is almost always a futile task.) And yes, some of those biphobic bigots may identify as pansexual, and they are a fucking smear against the pansexual label.

But guess what. Just as many of those bigots identify as bisexual too. Those bigots are usually the prejudiced assholes who are transphobic, polyphobic, slutshamers, etc. And those bigots are a fucking smear against the bisexual label.

(And then there’s the rest of such bigots who identify as heterosexual/homosexual/other. They’re just a fucking smear against humanity in general.)

So what am I trying to establish by pointing that out? Being biphobic and perpetuating bisexual stereotypes like that isn’t tied to being pansexual/identifying a pansexual, nor is it unique to pansexuals. There are even bisexuals who perpetuate such stereotypes.

But you will find plenty of pansexuals, myself included, who will fucking fight for bisexuality, and who will and do fight against biphobia. Who also celebrate bisexuality.

Which brings me to your other point; that pansexuality indicates discomfort with the label bisexuality. As I just pointed out, that’s not necessarily true, and isn’t true for a great many pansexuals, myself included. After all, I would hardly be happy to celebrate a label with which I was uncomfortable.

Now, as for the difference between the two labels, and why two labels exist when, for some, they mean the same thing? Well, first I’ll point back to the post I linked previously, which was my answer to a bisexual gentleman who was asking about the difference; THIS POST HERE.

The short of it is; sexuality is a spectrum, and it isn’t easy to neatly label it and put it into ‘quaint little categories,’ as Captain Jack Harkness would say.

One person’s definition of being ‘gay,’ for example, might not be the same as the next person’s ‘gay.’ For person A, ‘gay’ might mean they’re attracted only to the same sex, with absolutely no exceptions. For person B, being ‘gay’ might mean that they’re 99% attracted to the same sex, but they might have a 1% exception for just the right person. For person C, maybe they’re 80% attracted to the same sex, but every so often they might find themselves attracted to someone of the opposite sex, but that’s not the norm, so they still identify as ‘gay.’

Bisexuality and pansexuality are no different. One person’s self-identification as bisexual might be different from the next person’s. One person’s self-identification as pansexual might be different from the next person’s.

Person A might happily identify as bisexual and pansexual. Person B might only identify as bisexual. Person C might only identify as pansexual. Unless person C is actively perpetuating biphobic stereotypes, they are not inherently biphobic. And unless person B is actively perpetuating panphobic stereotypes, they are not inherently panphobic.

That said…. insisting that pansexuality is inherently biphobic? Is entirely hurtful and panphobic. And I, as a pansexual, have every right to request that people not perpetuate panphobia.

Especially, as was in the case of the post I responded to earlier, when the poster is actively shoving panphobia in literal dozens of pansexual tags just to rub it in the faces of any pansexual who might track the tag, or be searching it. Like, I’m not talking just tagging it with one or two pansexual tags (although that can also be upsetting), but they were tagging it with tags like fandom character specific pansexual tags that had literally nothing to do with their post.

THAT. Is harmful. Harmful and hurtful to pansexuals, harmful and hurtful to bisexuals, and harmful and hurtful to the LGBTQ+ community.

Now. If you’re interested in civil discourse beyond this, feel free to tell me your URL, and I’ll unblock you. Otherwise, I bid you farewell.

Edit: One more thing. Forcing a label on another person is just. All around wrong in general. Just. Just sayin’. People have the right to self-identify their labels.

#Anonymous #sexuality #bisexuality #pansexuality #biphobia #panphobia #fuck me I'm tired of panphobia #I really need to learn not to pick internet fights #but I care a great deal about freedom of sexuality

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noirandchocolate · 6 years ago

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Wanted to talk just a little about Gamzee as a Bard of Rage in the Epilogues.

First off, here’s the canon explanation of Rage from the Extended Zodiac website:

Those bound to the aspect of Rage are bringers of chaos. They posses great contempt for lies or false ideas, including the stability that false ideas can impart. To them, the true is far more important than the good; they would tear down a system just to destabilize it if, by their reckoning, it is built on faulty premises. Often the Rage-bound prefer anarchy to any of the alternate forms of civilization, which they believe to be riddled with lies and foolishness and obedient masses. They are bringers of confusion and doubt, and they can be frustratingly difficult to convince otherwise when they have attached themselves to an idea. If they sound dangerous, they are. The Rage-bound tend to be most volatile and unpredictable of the aspects. At their best they are original, revolutionary, and fearless. At their worst they are cruel, uncompromising, and vicious.

I also remember a really good fan-theory post where the Rage/Hope aspect pair was discussed as being about narrowing or broadening choices and possibilities. The idea was that when someone is hopeful, they can feel like the sky is the limit, that there is endless potential and myriad options for them, while when someone is full of rage they may feel like they have few options or only one choice in a situation--usually a harmful or negative one made in anger.

Then there’s the Bard class, which is paired with Prince as a “destruction/destroyer” class. Bard is the passive side, while Prince is active. Passive classes are more about inviting or inspiring things to happen, so we could say that a Bard of Rage is about “inviting/inspiring destruction through rage” or “inviting/inspiring the destruction of rage.”

So here’s a few things I noticed about Gamzee and his role as a Bard of Rage in the Candy side of the Epilogues. (Note that Gamzee is not really a God Tier despite his outfit--but god imagine if he was, holy shit.) First of all, after reading both sides I realized that Dirk violently noped out of Candy very shortly after Gamzee was de-fridged. There are plenty of reasons why Dirk did what he did that will not be discussed here, but in a meta sense it’s possible that there was only a need for one destroyer per Epilogue. There’s also the fact that both Dirk and Gamzee are “parts of Lord English”: half of Gamzee, and the Autoresponder/Lil Hal/ARquiusprite copy of Dirk, ended up fusing with Caliborn to form LE. Maybe there was only need for one “sort of part of LE” per Epilogue? ANYWAY I’m getting off track.

Next, while Dirk actively and very tenaciously influenced events in Meat, Gamzee just sort of existed disgustingly in people’s presence and nudged things certain ways, maybe without even actively having a plan to turn things to chaotic shit (although also maybe with a plan, who knows, the clown is in many ways inscrutable). Aside from proclaiming the gospel of MoThErFuCkInG rEdEmPtIoN, his influences on the story pretty much just came from him acting like his ridiculous and gross self around everyone. A Bard versus a Prince, right???

But he did have some pretty big influences nonetheless, and they were pretty Rage-y come to think about it. For one thing, he insinuated himself into Jane and Jake’s lives pretty damn hard, and was instrumental in ruining any relationship they may have had to the point where Jake was basically abused and the two’s child...well, also abused (also don’t want to go deeply into this, I’m not here to analyze Jane and Jake too hard, I’m doing Gamzee today)! Without Gamzee around, perhaps Jane would’ve been an overbearing wife or a cold mother, but with Gamzee, holy fuck. Inviting destruction through Jane’s rage, don’t you think? Inspiring “confusion and doubt” in people like Jake and Lil Tavros, right?

Keeping on that track with Jane, her political actions in Candy are so much worse than in Meat, and I don’t think that’s only because things progressed through so many more years in Candy (although granted that’s just my speculation). Gamzee knew how to push her buttons by calling her a xenophobe and declaring she’d be “canceled” over certain remarks about troll reproduction. Which, if you take the view of Rage being an aspect of narrowing choices...really could be said to be a subtle forcing of Jane’s hand. If she hadn’t been so pissed off, maybe she could’ve seen more clearly and not thought the only choices on the issue were all-or-nothing and that “do nothing” was such an untenable position that it wasn’t really a choice at all. I really don’t think it’s a mistake that a Rage player, canonically a chaos-bringer, was instrumental in Jane’s descent into being “Trump-Hitler.” Although again, it could be argued it would’ve happened anyway, maybe it wouldn’t have been as bad or maybe at some point she would’ve realized what she was doing was evil rather than just “practical” or however she justified it. Things were peaceful on Earth C, and maybe politics could’ve stayed more or less stabilized. But definitely not with a Bard of Rage hanging around such a key player.

Keeping on with the narrowing of choices concept, in Candy we saw a lot of characters doing things “because they just thought they should,” even if those things weren’t all in themselves wholly negative and even if some people were later just as happy with their choices. Right after Gamzee showed up, Roxy just kind of decided then and there that they “should be” with John, and then went through a lengthy period of just kind of doing that and feeling unable to stand up for themself or their own desires, choices, identity, etc. In contrast, in Meat they felt empowered to explore their gender, for example. Even though in Candy they much later say they’re happy as a woman with she/her pronouns and enjoyed being pregnant and a mom and all that (so it’s possible that in the Meat timeline they also might’ve come to that conclusion in time--or not!) the fact that in the timeline where Gamzee existed they felt more pushed into not even considering other options is interesting. There’s also the Dave/Jade/Karkat mess, and how in Candy Dave felt a lot more pushed into just going along and being with Jade exclusively despite honestly really wanting to be with Karkat. There’s some other examples too but this post is getting really long. Again, while obviously not everything is All About Gamzee, or actively his fault (I don’t think he really had anything much to do with any of these people other than declaring his redemption to them), his passive existence in this timeline...hm!

Finally (or finally all I can think of right now) there’s the fact that Gamzee seemed able to extinguish a lot of people’s rage or disgust toward him simply by proclaiming the “truth” of redemption. Now, we all know that someone just saying sorry and suddenly “being redeemed” is a load of shit and a lame fandom trope used to woobify villains (hell plenty of people did and probably still do this with Gamzee himself--his “apology” speech contained a LOT of stuff very common in the earlier fandom when his shittiness was a little less...obvious and enduring). Rage players are, according to the above quoted description, supposed to be all about eradicating lies and falsehoods, so what’s going on here? Well, Gamzee is full of shit! Maybe he honestly believes he is redeemed and others should try to be redeemed in the same bullshit way--so his proclamations of this as an ultimate, religious Truth make sense. Or maybe he knows it’s a lie but is just being the manipulative, destructive clown his Class points to: a destroyer. What better way to insinuate himself into society than by forming some kind of redemption cult, preaching about something he knows is a lie but a useful one? Ultimately a destructive one, because it destroys chances for real redemption while letting people’s destructive tendencies go by unquestioned because “you can always just say sorry and be redeemed.” And in doing so he makes many people just sort of accept his gross, unseemly behavior and stop being mad at him. People believe this nonsense. Gamzee effectively destroys the rage they might’ve otherwise felt toward him by acting pathetic and contrite when it’s convenient for him, and thus makes himself more able to not only stay alive, but thrive and invite all the destruction mentioned above.

Ultimately it doesn’t work on a few people. Karkat, Gamzee’s former moirail, sees right through it all. Jane is an exception to not showing rage to Gamzee because he’s using her in a different way as discussed before: tl;dr baiting her into hating him in a sexy way is part of his chaos-bringing ways. He tries the same thing with (Vriska) and succeeds for a few minutes but then she just straight up murders him. Which makes sense, because Vriska. Why would any Vriska allow herself to be manipul8ted for long? As a Light player, of course she could see through his bullshit (Light is a knowledge-based aspect) and would want him gone. She’s a Thief of Light, for goodness’ sake, of course she’d steal his “luck” in being able to influence so many people and stay alive despite being so contemptible, and his “relevance” in inspiring so much of the Candy storyline. She’s Vriska, she thinks she should be the only star of the show!

Anyway I’m NOT DOING VRISKA TODAY I was supposed to just be doing Gamzee, and that’s what I have to say about Gamzee, the Bard of Rage, on this particular day!

#kidk says stuff #homestuck #homestuck spoilers #homestuck epilogues

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starstruckpurpledragon · 6 years ago

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So earlier today I saw an ask on @fuckyeahasexual talking about there being articles on Vice about aromanticism and asexuality. Well, mostly asexuality, but there was apparently one on aromanticism too. I didn’t really have time to read it then, but I wasn’t super impressed by the tagline “They're never gonna fall in love—because they don't want to.”

A person’s orientation isn’t a choice, so I tend to be kind of wary of phrasing that implies the opposite. So not a great start for the article.

It’s actually not bad. It was written in 2014 and despite being 5 years old (well, in September it will be), its information hasn’t aged badly (there’s still the 1% of the population is ace figure that’s outdated, but... 2014). I really don’t like some of the author’s tendency towards flippant humor, but I’ll get to that some below the cut. Overall, its a decent take on aromanticism from an outsider’s perspective and, better yet, the aromantics interviewed for the article aren’t all aroace, there’s a lesbian aro and straight aro who get quoted, and a few other aros who may or may not be ace mentioned throughout the article. I also think it does a fairly good job of addressing common misconceptions like ‘aros are late bloomers’ and ‘it’s a tumblr thing’, though your mileage may vary on that one.

I particularly like the closing paragraph:

It’s clear that the human experience that sits under the label of “aromantic” is not simple. Aros may feel sexual attractions, they may not. They may want to be intimate, they may not. They might want relationships with one special person, or have squishes, they might not. Their ideal Christmas present might be a Blu-ray copy of The Notebook, or they might have taste. But all of this variation doesn’t make the label less valid. Why should minority sexual and romantic orientations have to fit into strict criteria? Straight, romantic people aren’t all easily defined either. Love is complicated, and humans are more so—and when you think in those terms, I guess the real question is why aren't there more labels for the way that we relate to each other?

Okay, so I do like some of the flippant humor because I’ll never not find taking potshots at The Notebook funny.

If you’re looking for some 101 resources to start explaining aromanticism to a non-aro friend, this would be a good article to toss their way. Below the cut is a deeper look at the good and bad aspects of the article.

The Good:

While the article uses asexuality as a jumping off point for explaining aromanticism, the author makes it clear that asexual does not equal aromantic or vice versa. She discusses sexuality as a spectrum then introduces the concept of romantic orientations as a spectrum too, moving from there into a deeper view of aromanticism.

She debunks a lot of misconceptions about aromanticism:

Discusses how its not about disliking romantic gestures

Makes it clear that aromantics aren’t psychopaths (though this was one of the places her flippant humor irked me)

Touches on the concept that aromantics do feel all kinds of platonic love, just not romantic love

Tackles the idea that aromantics are just late bloomers, examining the reasoning behind that assumption and ultimately uses quotes from an interviewed aro to land firmly against the idea that aromantics are just late bloomers

Also tackles the idea that we’re just tumblr snowflakes, though this one is more of a mixed-bag of results and YMMV just how well she deals with it

Discusses how enjoying romance as a genre does not disqualify a person from being aromantic

Confronts the idea that aromantics are all sex-fiends both with quotes from aros who explain why thats not true and from using her own logic skills to pick apart the fallacy

While she doesn’t discuss amatanormativity by name, she does tackle the concept to some degree. There are quotes from aromantics discussing the harm society’s expectations regarding romance have made aros feel uncomfortable or even broken.

Describing squishes using AVEN’s definition was a good start - “a desire for a strong platonic relationship with someone which is usually more emotionally intimate than a typical friendship.” - which makes it all the more annoying when her treatment of the term squish is immediately fumbled afterwards. (More below in ‘The Bad’ section.)

She discusses what QPRs are and while the definition given isn’t the greatest - there’s no mention of alterous attractions and the standard ‘romantic relationship levels of commitment between intensely close friends’ description is given. While some aros are okay with this type of description for QPRs and other aros are very intensely against it, this is definitely a spot where YMMV. While I’m ultimately glad that QPRs were addressed at all and in a way that non-aros can start grasping the concept, I do find it frustrating that she implies that QPRs are sort of friendship+ since that’s not really what they are.

The Bad:

I admit, I really just don’t like the tagline. In addition to my earlier complaints, it erases aromantics who do want to be in a romantic relationship. There are a lot of valid reasons an aro might choose to be in a romantic relationship and I don’t think that ever really gets addressed in the article, which instead frames all aro relationships as either friendships or QPRs.

“Aromanticism is simply the fundamental desire to not be in a romantic relationship.” - That’s... not really a good explanation of what aromanticism is. While it, thankfully, doesn’t imply that aromanticism is a choice, it doesn’t actually describe what aromanticism is - not experiencing romantic attraction - and equates aromanticism with behavior - not wanting to be in a romantic relationship. This once again erases aromantics who are in romantic relationships for any number of valid reasons.

“Unlike psychopaths or people who just don’t want to be in a romantic relationship with you (ugh, weirdos), aros are capable of love.” - While I’m glad she addresses both that aros aren’t psychopaths and that aros do feel love, I could do without the amatanormative joke in the middle there. The idea that only weirdos wouldn’t be romantically attracted to a person is really entitled and creepy and gross and just jarring to have there. The semi-flippant treatment of dismissing the psychopath misconception isn’t all that great either, but YMMV. In this particular context its just very uncomfortable to me, perhaps largely because the person making the joke isn’t aro.

The dismissive attitude towards aro culture because we make jokes about auto-correct, discuss fandom headcanons, and create pride flags. These are all things that pretty much every LGBT+ identity does and its insulting to single us out for being comfortable enough with our aromanticism to start having fun and taking pride in ourselves. None of that is inherently childish and I really can’t tell if she’s being ignorant or indulging in ageism by classifying things she’s not interested in as things that adults don’t do.

The equally dismissive treatment of aromantic terms, like ‘squish’ and ‘zucchini’. ‘Squish’ is no more childish than the term ‘crush’ and plenty of adults use the word ‘crush’ to describe their romantic feelings. And while ‘zucchini’ may sound weird without knowing the history behind it (or even when you do) slang pretty much always sounds weird. It’s even more frustrating because one of the quotes in this section are used to reinforce the author’s disdainful attitude towards the adequacy of our terminology. Not every aro finds these words useful but its downright hurtful to see an aro quoted calling the word ‘squish’ juvenile or equate it with being ‘emotionally stunted’. (Seriously, while I can understand wanting equivalent terms we can use that are less likely to be dismissed by non-aros, I hope everyone will try to remember that dismissing words like ‘squish’ is really hypocritical when similar slang terms are widely in use for conveying romantic emotions and are not treated as childish. It’s just another form of aromisia and one that is very easily internalized.)

Overall, the author seemed extremely open to understanding what aromanticism really is and the parts of her writing that conveyed amatanormative and aromisic sentiments could be put down to her simply still being ignorant on the subject. It’s definitely a good starting point for non-aros to learn some of the basics about aromanticism. I don’t know if I’d recommend this to someone trying to figure out if they themselves are aro, though.

#aromantic article #non-aro author #aromisia #arophobia #good as a 101 article for non-aros #aro erasure #2014 #I might go back later and checkout the articles on asexuality #but I was more interested in the aro article #because as little as there is on asexuality there's even less on aromanticism #aro 101

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rpbetter · 3 years ago

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I noticed the earlier anon used the word feminist as a negative, when feminism, as it's defined, doesn't really have bias for women, it is about equality, if I'm not mistaken? So any "feminism" that comes with "man hating" is actually not feminism at all, but a messed up radical version of it. Something I think is important to remember, unless my own definitions are wrong? That's how we get scores of people denouncing "feminism" under the impression it's somehow bad for society or hateful. Sorry if this isn't rp related enough. I just notice this shift in definitions happening so much on Tumblr, even in the RPC with muns and muses, and I think that's scary.

No, this is absolutely related enough, and very much important enough! I should have said something, it was my intention, but intention doesn't stand well in the place of actually doing it, does it? Lesson for everyone on not hurrying things out! And I apologize for not having addressed that, I really dropped the ball there.

So, thank you for the opportunity to address it now, Anon!

Your definition is totally correct, yes, but for anyone who wishes to question that, let me put it below:

"belief in and advocacy of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes expressed especially through organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests" - Miriam-Webster

Feminism is founded upon equality of the sexes, not the elevating of one above the other. That's literally the opposite of equality. Because women have historically been unequal, the movement is about achieving equality for women. Just because it focuses on women, as the unequal sex, does not mean it is only for women, only about women, only for/about women as defined by radicals, or the condemnation of men/those designated as men by radicals.

If you hate men, you're not a feminist.

Tumblr is incredibly bad for shifting definitions to suit. With using "feminism" in this way (unless the intention was to imply "feminism" as in, the false idea of it) I think the issue gets divided in its origin into people who have genuinely radical beliefs and those who want to feel like their beliefs are not radical.

You have people who are totally alright with being radical "feminists," their primary issue with this is that the more obvious signs of them being thus are picked up on and condemned. They have to put their shit out there in a way that doesn't register as being radical, and they do, so long as it isn't something tumblr is really good at recognizing. I don't just mean vaguely "on tumblr," I mean it everywhere on tumblr outside of those groups themselves.

That's great and all that anything is so recognized, but it means that less obvious shit slides through and is embraced, not infrequently in innocuous seeming ways in places like fandom and the RPC - ie: if you write a male muse as an afab mun when you clearly could've picked a female muse, you're perpetuating a problem of male preference. (Also male gaze, lack of female characters in media, female characters who are not as well developed as their male counterparts, and on and on and on, there's an argument for it all with these people.)

When people are willing to accept any external reason for why they feel slighted, they can get behind that kind of narrative. People also tend to not just want to be in a group, they want to be in the right group. A group that is the most vociferous in the correct way is going to be perceived as the right group. They didn't say anything that flagged them for being radical in ways that most of tumblr is going to recognize, so there isn't any reason to not adopt these ideas and speech patterns, right?

Then, you have people who do exactly that. They've either no clue that their behavior is exclusionary "feminism," which isn't fucking feminism, but we can't force them to stop calling it that, or they have some suspicions that what they say and do is...a little icky. If they say "feminism" enough times, that makes it true, riiiight? You can put a good spin on being shitty to male muns and muses and anyone you think might be amab with the things you put out there if you slap on the justification, preferably with Sass and Humor, that it's Feminism...right?

Yeah, no, absolutely not right lol but here we are.

So, tumblr adopts yet another term it honestly has no idea the true meaning of in order to justify, weaponize, vilify, excuse, etc. etc. etc. It's gross, and we should say it. Every time we use an important, real-life term incorrectly, that's actually something legitimately problematic we're doing.

It is scary because, if nothing else, it waters down the meaning. Like in throwing "fascist," "toxic," "gaslighting," "nazi," "ableism," and so on at fucking everything and everyone that one doesn't like or agree with. I genuinely believe that only, like, 20% of the RPC knows what "gaslighting" even is at this point.

At the worst, it means we're less able to recognize everything from true radfems to an abusive relationship.

Somewhere in between, and not to trivialize it, these things have the power of bullying and divisive bullshit in the RPC. What happens when you directly address someone's shitty behavior toward you, or say openly that you do not like it when people do something in RP? Well, you can't toss a grain of rice in the RPC without it hitting someone who is mentally ill or otherwise divergent, so...congratulations, you are now an ableist.

The idea of feminism is twisted and weaponized as well. I see a lot of extremely inappropriate commentary on men that makes the rounds, things that, even if they're not about RP or fandom, make male muns in the community uncomfortable and isolated when they're already a minority in most of the RPC. It is reflected in fandom as well, with the way male characters are viewed and treated being addressed as though it is a strike for feminism to treat men, real and fictional, in ways that women have been subjected to. When anyone takes issue, they're sexist, misogynistic, taking it too seriously, and/or anti-feminist.

When all of that is against the foundation of feminism.

It's not alright, and we should be more aware of the words we're using. They have actual meaning, that meaning is important.

I don't think that the other anon meant it that way, I think they are just, firstly frustrated, secondly, have run into the people in the RPC who pull this kind of thing with the backing of their warped "feminism." So, I don't want that anon to feel like they're being drug or anything, this is just a lesson for all of us to be more careful about what we're saying when we describe situations!

Even if you think you know (especially a particularly "charged" one) a term inside and out, double check it now and then anyway through an impartial source to be certain before you speak. There's no shame in being careful!

(in reference to this response)

#answered #anonymous

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shooksaltshaker · 7 years ago

Text

okay what the hecc

So I’ve been seeing stuff about the idea of V selling child porn of pictures of Rika and whether he raped her. So here I am going to throw around some key points on why I believe this is not the case.

- Ages: lmao that mm timeline tho. (Tbh I feel like cheritz kinda mixed up the time line quite a bit so I feel that’s part of the reason why the age thing is crazy is bc that bc one thing I noticed in the v route was that they still said they were same age as like casual story despite the fact another story takes place two years earlier BUT i can’t prove much with that so im gonna discuss the information I do know) Okay so V and Rika have a 3 year time gap going by the ages they are. (And someone could of also pointed out the age said on the vip package could be referring to her age when she “committed suicide” but that can’t be confirmed obviously) now the 3 year time gap isn’t that wild. I’m not sure fully about the laws in South Korea but I know where I’m from, if you’re a minor it’s only considered pedophilia if the two do not fit within the three year age gap. So 18 year old and 15 year old is nothing that taboo ma dudes.

- V never sold pictures of Rika. In fact, in one of the parts of the secret endings V mentions how someone had liked a picture of Rika smiling that was displayed in his gallery. They had wanted to buy it, but V told him he could not buy the picture. So we can clearly see that V was not selling pictures of Rika.

- Now V just making some pornography? No. If you notice by the way he acts he’s very submissive, he’s concerned about what Rika wants. It was always what do you want Rika? I’ll do anything for you. Now don’t get me wrong. This attitude is not healthy. Some people in fact have been using one of V’s bad endings where he was taking the photos of MC. This is again an example where V becomes unhealthily submissive in the relationship and does what MC wants. Now if V was taking highly inappropriate pictures we can’t exactly prove it. So I’ll let you decide. Do I think he was? No.

- Another thing I’ve seen is that people think V made up that Rika committed suicide to cover up any crimes he did. I disagree with this and I even talked about this with an internet frand. (Hello if ur reading this you know who you are I didn’t know if I should mention you are not have a nice day!) and okay here’s the reasons.

If v said there was a murder a body would have to be shown as proof and all

If he said she ran away it could be this crazy search

If he went and straight up told the rfa “hey Rika started a fucking cult in the mountains” you know would freak the fuck out? Yoosung. And in his state of mind he would go to her! And fall right into her trap. He would end up brainwashed like the rest of the members of mint eye.

Also Rika could of been like hey bishes Jihyun is lyin COME SEE ME. But nope.

- Now another thing that was discussed with some cool peeps. Why didn’t V tell Jumin about what really happened to Rika.

V didn’t want to ruin that image of Rika for Jumin especially with how close Rika was to Jumin.

Fear. How could this effect everything? Could it hurt Jumin? Jumin’s reputation? The RFA members? How would they react? Fear also takes place in how Rika treated V. Which leads to reason 3.

Rika abused V. I feel that V felt trapped. Which from my situation when I dealt with my abuser I felt the same. I know everyone’s experiences are different and I know that my experience has differences with V’s but I see so many similarities. When you’re in this state where someone’s hurting you or threatening you, etc. You don’t know what to do. You want to do something but you’re afraid, you’re confused. You don’t know what to do. You don’t know how to do some of these things. You aren’t thinking logically. I see that a lot in V’s situation so that’s why I’m saying my experience. V shows a lot of common traits of abuse victims. Oh yeah because he is one.

- V and Rika’s relationship. There was flaws coming from both of them in this toxic relationship. V’s obsession and self sacrificing nature. Which he admitted his flaws. And then Rika tended to take advantage of how V‘s unhealthy submissiveness like when v said she could hurt him in every way. When that happened. She told him to prove that he loved her right before I believe before it’s implied she blinded him at that part. The way she said it it seems like she was taking advantage of what V he said. While V’a self sacrificing nature is toxic, Rika’s behavior is also toxic and abusive. Another flaw with Rika was her refusal to get help. In the secret endings it shows when v got her therapy and after a few sessions she had already wanted to quit. V did try to convince her to keep going but she insisted that she didn’t want to. V could not just force her to go to therapy. It wasn’t until another story until it was revealed Rika was taking meds at the time too. (I’m mentioning this because people used to claim that v took her off her meds before another story even came out.) so v wanted Rika getting help. But she refused. Like I said V can’t drag her to therapy, he can’t force her to take her meds y’all. ,,,,,,

- god I hate that I have to even discuss this jfc but here we are. Sexism. Hating Rika for her wrongness and liking V has NOTHING to do with sexism. If Rika was a male NO I HAD WOULD NOT LOVE HER AND BE LIKE UWU MY BEAUTIFUL ABUSIVE SON. Yes yes I’ve seen the stalking killing whatever it’s called fandom being like “OOO I LOVE IT WHEN HE KILLS PEOPLE SOO HOT” yeah that’s gross, killing and abusing people isn’t sexy fyi. ANYWAY, V fans recognize flaws from both characters. We recognize V’s flaws. We’re not dumb. But we also acknowledge that ding dong Rika is an abuser and she abused V. So stop it with the sexism bs.

I think I’ve mostly covered what I wanted to say for now. I will probably add more later on and I’d like to even provide screenshots. I haven’t done that already due to the limited storage on my phone, I apologize.

#mystic messenger #mysme #mm #jihyun kim #v #v mystic messenger #mysmes #discourse #anti rika #rika discourse #v discourse #salty speakings

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