#SWTOR/EU I guess

[legends-chauvinist]

Replaying legacy of the sith for the first time 7.0 launched and it's so weird that Norok will try to kill the Wrath/Nox for scuttling the republic ship but listens to Krovos when she tells him not to execute Korrd????

[yarpell]

I will need to inquire about any potential european-servers ffxiv friendos, I'd love to find some people to play with 😔

[pirunika]

Finally got my baby fett up to the best dlc

💕🥺torian says the most sweet things ever

I except so much for him in 7.4 in the winter time

( the galactic season is okay still annoyed they keep adding in Disney outfits before eu fits like mirta jaina boba Mara etc )

hhh urge to play swtor rises..and yeah keep dis*ney out of it ❌ but i guess money talks...

[swtorpadawan]

ZEP!

fandom meme Z - Just ramble about something fan-related, go go go (prompts optional but encouraged) Specific to SWTOR in particular and Star Wars in general, I think something that contributes to the divisions in the fandom is the sheer number of writers and creators who've contributed to building this fandom for the past 45 years. The moment George Lucas licensed other people to create in his universe, he opened this floodgate. And that's fine - as far as I'm concerned, he's forfeited his right to say what is and is not "Star Wars", long before he sold the whole thing to Disney. Don't get me wrong - there was a lot to love in the EU. But there was a lot that wasn't very good. There were sooooooo many "conflicting canon" issues… and at one point the primary focus of the writers seemed to be an obsession over who Jaina Solo's boyfriend should be. (I'm fine with it going to Jag. But given that Jaina was rather young at the time this was going on, it shouldn't have been such a deal with the writers.) I don't hate Disney Canon. I don't. I just wish they'd taken the opportunity to tell a more consistent story. The modern the result is, we now see people who can ignore 98 percent of the content of Star Wars and point to one incident that one writer wrote in one book and say "See? The Jedi are just as bad as the Sith!" That's… skewed. I understand the projection. But it throws me sometimes.

E - Have you added anything cracky/hilarious to your fandom, if so, what Rex (From TCW/Rebels) is in my Halcyon Legacy in SWTOR. He's nominally retired as a soldier, and is the bartender at the Alliance cantina on Odessen.

I dunno… I thought it was funny.

P - Invent a random AU for any fandom (we always need more ideas)

I'm the worst at this. I've seen some "detective Noir" AUs, some medeival fantasy AUs, some steampunk…

I guess Star Wars during the fall of the Bronze Age? That might be a niche interest.

Thanks for the asks!

[sealeneee]

guys I can't do this anymore /lh

backstory: I have been a star wars fan since i was about 9 years old, and approximately until uhh 13 iirc when the first sequel movie came out. all i watched/knew about were the prequels and ot (sequels didn't come out yet) because i was a kid and didn't know how to get deeper into the fandom. i also watched clone wars but i think i stopped at the middle of season 6 or smth

anyway about a year ago i got back into star wars because a friend suggested playing swtor and i really liked it. so now as an adult with a hyperfixation i started gathering more information about other eras and also legends etc etc. i still don't know much because most of my interest is in the old republic era

so anyway, my father is a star wars fan as well, i guess, though he's more of an "sequel bad new lore bad" kind of fan. so we're watching andor (ep 4) and he asks why didn't the sith just recruit more people (force sensitive) and defeat the jedi. disclaimer: as i said, i don't know the EU lore well, so i may be wrong. so i explain how there was this guy (bane, iirc) who made the rule of two because the sith infighting and power squabbles were making them weak. and father just starts bombarding me with questions I can't answer instead of idk using google or just shutting up. he also loves the "new canon bad" rhetoric even though I'm 99% sure the bane thing was created by lucas/under lucas. and this isn't the first time. i am just tired of this "NEW THING BAD" which he brings up CONSTANTLY even though half the time it's not even something new and was actually lucas' canon/eu/whatever before disney

and yeah the whole "why so many [insert minority here]" as a bonus because god forbid someone other than white straight men have roles in media

tl;dr i'm tired of explaining star wars lore to a person who doesn't want to understand it or look it up himself and bonus points for bigotry/intolerance

[takerfoxx]

Gonna knock off some big ones here! The fav(s) of the day are...

BOBA FETT!

Okay guys, let’s get this out straight out of the gate. I grew up as a major Star Wars fan. My dad is an old-school sci-fi nerd and it really rubbed off on me. Classic science fiction was our bread and butter growing up, and the Star Wars movies were no exception. We must’ve watched those suckers a gazillion times.

And the expanded universe? Oh, I was all over that shit! And I mean the old stuff! The Truce at Bakura, the Heir to the Empire trilogy, the Kyp Durron trilogy, both the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian trilogies (there were a lot of trilogies), Darksaber, Planet of Twilight, Shadows of the Empire, The Courtship of Princess Leia, Young Han Solo, Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, the Young Jedi Knight series, all of the Tales books, Galaxy of Fear, even less well regarded stuff like The Crystal Star. All that and more filled my bookshelves.

But like many young Star Wars fans, my boy was the guy that got like four lines of dialogue and quickly gets killed off in the first half of the third film.

It’s hard to really articulate what made Boba Fett so appealing. I think it’s part of the air of mystery around him. In Empire, he strides in with a totally badass design, is the guy to track down and capture the heroes, backtalks Darth Vader and gets away with it, and escapes with one of the main characters in tow. I guess that caused people to become intrigued by him and want to see what he would do in the last film. And sure enough, he shows up looking all cool and mysterious, flies into a direct confrontation with both Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, seems to get the upper hand...and is summarily dispatched by a fluke accident.

Lame.

So I guess many who would become Star Wars writers were, like myself, let down by this, and sought to “correct” this by giving ol’ Boba his own mythos, complex history, cast of closely-related characters, and make it so that he escaped the damn worm and would go on to cross paths with the heroes in every obligatory “The one with Boba Fett!” entry in every long-running Star Wars book series ever.

And boy, did I eat it up!

The Bounty Hunter Wars! An entry in both Tales From the Bounty Hunters and Tales From Jabba’s Palace! Endless comics! The aforementioned obligatory Boba Fett books! All of this created a character that became almost revered by the fandom, who cast a shadow over the whole multi-verse. I bought the books, played with the toys, and even wrote a short little Boba Fett story in sixth grade. I mean, this guy was just cool.

Needless to say, I’m not the Star Wars fan I once was. I mean, the only one of these movies since RotJ that I’ve actually liked is also one of the least popular, so that’s a thing. Hell, I was debating putting up a Star Wars entry to begin with. But man, even if I’m not all that into Star Wars anymore, it can’t be denied that for a time it reigned supreme, and Boba Fett was, in my world, the king.

(Though lowkey, it was kind of hilarious watching writers try to reconcile the already established Boba Fett origin with the one created by the prequels after Attack of the Clones dropped)

He’s no good to me dead.

Also...

DARTH REVAN!

So I went from almost not doing a Star Wars entry to doing one with multiple characters. Yeah, go figure.

All right. So, Knights of the Old Republic is probably my last great foray into Star Wars before sort of slipping out of the fandom. It was recommended to me by a work friend, so I popped over to EB Games (remember them?), grabbed up a used copy, popped it into my X-Box, and...

I think I averaged about eight hours a day on those games. Each of them.

It was one of the best gaming experiences I’ve ever had, a wholly new Star Wars story taking place centuries before the films (and yet somehow still having the same technology level) that features none of the classic characters, but still felt very much Star Wars, but also its own thing: a sprawling space adventure as you, the apprentice Jedi, joins up with a ragtag group of companions and travel the galaxy trying to thwart a rogue Sith Lord from finding some long lost superweapon. The worlds you visit! The characters you meet! The quests, the leveling, the force powers, the plot, everything was just so fresh and so cool!

And then you get to the twist, a twist that is now notorious for being one of the best twists in gaming history: finding out that you aren’t just some new Jedi rising up to stop a Sith Lord: you are actually DARTH MOTHERFUCKING REVAN, the Sith Lord that was the master of the current Sith Lord, long thought dead but had actually been captured, mind-wiped and reprogrammed by the Jedi! What do you do with this new information? Well, that’s up to you!

Needless to say, when this was revealed in the game, I started screaming, and screaming loudly. What a twist! What a game-changer! 

Now granted, being the PC of an RPG means that Revan’s personality was decided by the player’s choices, so he didn’t get much of a canon personality of his own, but that still doesn’t change the fact that he’s the centerpoint of one of the coolest pieces of the Star Wars EU that there is, and that’s worth a lot in my opinion.

Also, Bastila was bae, just sayin’. Sort of a proto-Serana, if you ask me.

(note: yes, I know about his role in SWTOR and don’t care for it. No, I haven’t read the novels yet, but I do intend to)

Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.

And finally...

GRAND ADMIRAL THRAWN!

The Heir to the Empire is the granddaddy of the OG Expanded Universe. I mean, Splinter of the Mind’s Eye technically came first, but no one remembers that. No, it was all about Timothy Zahn’s epic follow-up to the original Star Wars trilogy, which set the gold standard for the series for years to come and also introduced several of its most iconic characters. Mara Jade? She came from here. Talon Kardde? Also here.

And then you have the trilogy’s centerpiece, Grand Admiral Thrawn.

It’s sort of interesting how iconic Thrawn has become as a Star Wars villain, given how different he is from all of them. I mean, he’s not a Sith. Hell, he’s not force sensitive at all. He’s a military officer, in a series where they tend to be treated as expendable underlings. But through actually using his brain, studying his opponents’ strategies and cultures, making use of the resources available to him, and actually being fair to his subordinates, he’s gone on to almost rival Darth Vader in popularity in some circles. A brilliant tactician who managed to (mostly) overcome the Empire’s prejudice against non-humans through sheer efficiency, he came incredibly close to bringing the New Republic to its knees simply by outplaying them at every turn. His knack for figuring out his opponents’ thought process simply through studying their cultures’ works of art was inspired, and those who tried to outsmart him often came to regret it. What was more, he also was surprisingly honorable, having a strict moral code. He simply believed that the Empire was the best way to run things, and acted accordingly. Though don’t let that fool you into thinking that he wasn’t just as ruthless as anyone else in the Empire. He was just smarter than most about it.

While there was admittedly a lot of crap in the EU that Disney was wise to get rid of, losing characters like Thrawn was a major blow, which was why it was so awesome to see him return in the Rebels tv show. I literally have seen videos of grown men crying with joy just through watching his reveal trailer. And while I don’t have the time or means to watch Rebels for myself, I do want to give it a go sometime in the future, and Thrawn is a big part of that.

But it was so artistically done.

[shipping1addict]

"Like I guess Meta Propaganda?"

THIS

There is always this sentiment of ignoring or denying the backstories of species/ different cultures,, especially in star wars media. I won't say in all of Star Wars, because like you mentioned the EU does a way better job than the movies do. We don't need to talk about the movies tbh, a big problem I have with them is their "black and white" treatment of every political aspect and- I'm not gonna start.

There are a lot of people who claim that "You're problematic" if you prefer the empire side of view. And that's also the case in the swtor fandom. People jump to conclusions, that those are your morales too and that you're a secret racist and fascist.

But in the end, critical thinking is the key to all of this. Supporting a fictional government and bashing on everyone and everything that acts against it is actually more a sign of mindwashing and propaganda, than being interested in other backstories and point of views.

Every media has its real life influences, and star wars is heavily influenced by political opinions. Everyone knows that or- everyone should know that.

Part of why prefer playing on the imp side in swtor, is because it's not full with real-life-pseudo propaganda. The empire does bad things and the game acknowledges it, so what?

Giving someone deemed "bad" a backstory isn't the issue. It becomes an issue, if their actions are glorified.

I think a lot of people don't want to acknowledge that just because someone has done bad things in their life, doesn't mean that there are good things too. And this says more about people complaining than people enjoying said backstories.

I don’t know why people are mad that the Tuskan Raiders are being given depth because they had depth in the EU.

Personally, I believe all Star Wars species should be given depth. Depth don’t mean you have to fuck with them.

IE: we can see the Tuskan Raiders as more than the mfs who attacked Luke and killed Shmi and still say “fuck all them”.

Depth don’t mean you have to like or agree with them but I still think it’s important to have just on a worldbuilding level

[mymistymornings]

I saw you were playing SWTOR recently. Who're you playing? Got screenshots?! I hope you're having fun! *wave*

Heya! Yeah, decided to give it a bit of a go again, mostly for the stories and some Star Wars nostalgia :D We found out that we could move our characters from the EU servers to the US and it’s fairly cheap, so we moved a couple. I’ve been playing around trying to decide what to do (surprise, I’m having a hard time deciding on a character, who would have guessed), but I think I’ll end up with my very first character, Hyena, a bounty hunter. Except apparently they blocked the name.

I’ll post some screenshots! 

What are you up to these days? I watch your fighting stuff when it pops up on my social media, love the shield design you did! Is it mostly that or did you find some time to play WoW again?

[jinzlers]

well our copy of Thrawn came in last night and now that I’ve finished it here are as many thoughts as I can remember, in the form of bullet points and spoilers and run-on sentences

these are not at all in order, and as you can probably guess from my URL will contain some mostly stray EU thoughts

under the dust jacket the binding is white, blue, and red, how extra is that, I love it, so artistically done

Sy Bisti, as the only language Thrass and Lorana ever communicated in, is the Most Important Language in Star Wars and I’m glad it’s getting the recognition it deserves

where did a Coruscanti Jedi learn an apparently obscure Outer/Wild/Unknown language? she probably learned like eight languages just to spend time away from C’baoth, don’t ask questions, it’s real to meeeee

everyone’s shipping Thrawn with Eli now I guess but I’m over here like hello?? Nightswan?? more like Nightswain (Gilad is still my choice of bae though)

PS most telegraphed alias ever Zahn did you even try did you leave in a placeholder name

speaking of Thrawn/Gilad, congratulations to tumblr user @jaclynhyde for the Yuletide fic she wrote in which Thrawn leaves his boyfriend his diary, because apparently that’s the most canon thing anybody’s ever written about him

“surface inserts” are now just plain “eye lenses”, a great loss. …well unless surface inserts are the fancy glowing sclera lens upgrade sure let’s go with that

Yularen is the bro-est bro, Thrawn just needs to surround himself with guys with facial hair constantly I guess.

also shoutout to Alfren Cheno for also being a bro

[pours one out for the Empire of the Hand]

okay I realize it’s probably simpler and more streamlined to just have Thrawn siphoning Imperial talent off to the Ascendancy rather than a splinter faction, but dangit I liked the idea of Thrawn being just as offputting/concerning/problematic to the Ascendancy as he is to the Empire. plus now the cool/intriguing “protecting my people whether they like it or not” angle is…still technically true, but now also kind of bullshit, boo-urns

I was kind of worried Thrawn is dancing too close to the Mary Sue line with that plus spending this book being a franchise antagonist who just keeps ~accidentally~ getting his hands dirty. like, he already had enough plausible deniability in the old EU Zahn, let him be a bad guy geez

but on further reflection there were plenty of instances where he took extreme actions that others found unacceptable. it’s just easy to forget when the last two major bombshells are about his “exile” and ARIHNDA STEALIN THE SHOW GODDAMN

edit: why did I use the word bombshell dalfhslghs

she is The True Imperial, Thrawn and Vader and everyone else take notes

all the people I see in the Pryce tag shipping her and Juahir are in for a world of hurt. (it’s still a ship, it just. hurts.) fandom, never trust your heart to an Imperial unless it’s Pellaeon

“why hello there stranger” Anakin you FUCKIN LIAR

I love how frequently the word “mist” was encountered in the first chapter, doh-ho-ho

also all that shit on page 91 about ~legends~ oh my god he did that

I kinda have a soft spot for Pantorans so I like how often they were brought up (my Chiss bounty hunter in SWTOR usually claims to be half Duros but she’s a smartass so)

anyway good to see ya again Ar’alani and holy shit I knew I knew that name from somewhere H’sishi?! holy shit of all the characters H’sishi you made it girl grats goddamn

in conclusion all fanart of Thrawn must now include sunglasses, please and thank you the end

[kelena-liz]

More on BDO for Spring 2017

After a brief period, the wave of PK insanity did seem to subside. I spent two months after my last post mostly playing SWTOR, and towards the end a little GW2 (more than just the tea shop). That let me get through the new expansion content in SWTOR. I’m still active there imperial-side in a very busy RP guild.

But this post is about BDO. I returned to BDO, focusing mostly on my financial empire. At the same time, I learned that the Dark Knight class would be coming over from Korea for NA and EU worlds. 

Now, BDO currently runs one huge game world with many “channels” (instances of each world). I think there are about 30 or so channels right now. They are organized in groups of six channels each, with each group sharing a name. So you have Serendia 1, Serendia 2, etc., and then Calpheon 1, Calpheon 2, etc., until all the groups have been named. There are four “special” channels named Olvia for new or returning players with extra XP on all the time to help them catch up to the community in levels. The channel group names are Velia, Balenos, Serendia, Calpheon, Mediah, and Valencia. So I guess taken all together that makes 40 total channels (instances of the game world). It would be like 40 servers in other games.

Calpheon 2 is the unofficial role play channel for BDO in North America. And the Dark Knight class interested me greatly. Powered by darker magics yet not necessarily an “evil” character, and being of the Kamasilve elves, I saw her as an interesting departure in terms of creating a RP character. So I began to think of a backstory, including one with hooks that my character will not know about IC, and I really liked what I thought I was forming there.

So I spent the first month back in BDO really focusing on getting gear ready for my Dark Knight. By the time she was released on March 1, I had a full set of +15 armor, full Jarette’s accessories except for Ancient Guardian Core and Seal for belt and necklace. She had DUO Yuria kriegsmesser two handed weapon and +15 Saiyer knot. Basically, she was already geared for level 54 content.

I got her started and leveled past 50 in three evenings, then on to 55. Then a few days doing some RP and more merchant empire fun, and got her gear further enhanced and her on to 56.

So she’s really optimally set up right now. There’s more upgrades I want to do for her. I got her a TRI Liverto Kriegsmesser mainhand sword. Her chest and helm are DUO (+17), her gloves are PRI (+16) and her boots are still +15 (being stubborn). My next projects will be getting all her main armor to DUO, getting her Saiyer offhand knot to DUO, and upgrading her new accessories to at least PRI or better DUO.

I can state that I’ve not had this much fun with a class since I started my Maehwa nearly a year ago. Kuno is a class I want to love but the keybinds always give me grief. I can’t seem to remember them if I tried. Additionally, Maehwa and Dark Knight both are pretty self-sustaining in terms of self heals, at least for PVE content.

And I’m even motivated enough to try to get her on to 57 as well as looking at more RP opportunities for her.

BDO isn’t a game I can recommend to anyone. The open world PVP, the lack of ability to trade with others, the need for heavy involvement to seriously advance, and the need for an upper end system to really enjoy the game are all things that would keep me from recommending it. But, having said that, if someone can deal with those four issues, the game can be rewarding and fun.

Note: For those wondering, the economic side of BDO has occasionally been called “fantasy EVE Online”. The economic system is deep, the crafting system is deep, and there is a market you can play to a limited extent as well (though Kakao controls the market so prices don’t gyrate wildly).

[awryen-nyx]

I’m only gonna go with the RotS Novel bit here (mostly cause i desperately need to rewatch some things D:).

The bad thing about that novel is that it DID try to smooth some things over and make things less...cold? I guess? But it didn’t translate well in the film (which is honestly a failing on direction and editing of the film), but the book made Anakin’s fall hurt a whole lot more because you DID get moments where Yoda, and even Mace, tried to help Anakin. And Anakin did appreciate them helping, it just wasn’t enough to assuage his fears, but he’d just been relying on Palpatine for too long and saw him as more of a father figure than anyone else (he and obi-wan were brothers, more than (prologue)).

Selfish attachment is when you make a person more of an object than a person. You can still love them, but it’s more possessive.

Love and attachment is not a bad thing and I will disgaree with that when regarding the old Jedi. Selflessnes doesn’t mean just blindly following something and then basically going “for the greater good” which it sometimes comes across as.

Luke and old EU!Luke proved that multiple times over. Luke was selfish at times. Look at ESB. Sure, he got hurt because of it, but he still did what he felt was right and ended up where he needed to be, with Leia, Lando, and Chewie. And then, he was selfish once again when he and his friends went to go rescue Han. In the grand scheme of things against the Empire, rescuing Han really wasn’t...right. They could have easily still fought against the Empire without him, He was just ONE person after all. But none of them wanted that. THEY needed Han.

You have levels of selfishness that are good and bad. Anakin’s was bad, but a lot of that stemmed from being a slave and only having his mother to really rely on for 9 years of his life and then later losing faith in the very people he wanted to trust to help him save his mother and wife. Luke was selfish in that he wanted to save his chosen family because it was the right thing to do AND he loved them. Yes, Vader was a very credible threat, and he would handle that, but his friends didn’t deserve to die for the over all “greater good,” not when he knew he could DO something about that.

It was how they handled it in the end that defined which selfishness was good an bad.

(man i am terrible at explaining this bit. it feels right, but i dunno if that’s coming across well)

Honestly? And George has flip-flopped on this so much over the years, but I have always been a fan of a person who can actually balance both the light and the dark. Grey Jedi kind of thing. Ahsoka....KIND of fits that in Rebels, but it’s not an exact thing. I’d say Luke of the old EU is more that than old school Jedi, but it’s still not exactly what I had in mind. *shrug*

At one point, George said the Darkness is like a cancer and needs to be purged, but then he’s turned around said that you can’t have the Light without the Dark.

So for me, I choose a balance of the two. You can have that detachedness at times when it’s needed, but if you don’t have a passion for anything, it’ll make your convictions feel like they’re less. You can have a passion to help people and using your emotions to fuel that and can make you a very strong force user indeed. Family is a big motivator to protect, so long as you don’t turn to pure anger or vengence if something bad happens later.

Moderation, like @magnar-legacy pointed out! Her post goes into that more.

Like in SWTOR, you have various examples of both Jedi and Sith who have gone to the extremes and become monsters in their own ways, where as you also have those that are more balanced and don’t necessarily shun the other sides ideals completely and that is what has always spoken to me.

So when you have opposing sides that want to portray their way as the absolute (only sith deal in absolutes? riiiight. nice irony obi-wan), it causes problems.

I am starting to repeat myself, so I’ll stop here.

(honestly, it’s one of the big reasons why i hated The Last Jedi so much (among other things) because we were teased with the possibility of Luke teaching Rey more about a balanced approach, embracing aspects of the dark and light after learning how the absolutes of each of the old dogmatic orders hurt them more than helped. but....we didn’t *headdesk*)

Hello. First let me say I like your blog aesthetic. Second I stumbled across your recent reblog about hating the Jedi and I'm wondering if you could explain your reasoning? I've become curious and started exploring the reasons why opinions on the Jedi are so polarized. But don't feel obligated if it's something you don't want to discuss.

I would highly suggest talking to @inquisitorhotpants on this one. She can explain far better than I can. But a lot of it stems from how the Jedi will preach compassion, but when faced with it as an entity (the council) vs individuals (ahsoka, anakin), as a collective they can be very…cold and unintentionally callous.

To use an example that is very forefront: Anakin’s and his mom’s slavery sattus. Qui-Gon tried to get Shmi freed when he placed the bet to get Anakin freed, but he wasn’t able to. Afterwards…well, nothing was really made of it. Qui-Gon didn’t push again (or hard enough. gotta rewatch TPM) and Anakin was pretty much reviled for daring to care about the wellbeing fo his mother because “attachments” and in order to be a Jedi, he had to basically forsake her.

10 years later, Anakin still struggles with those pesky emotions and feelings, so much so that he straddles the Dark Side when he rightfully feels betrayed when his mother dies in his arms from being left and tortured.

That doesn’t excuse his actions, mind. He did attack unarmed children and women in that Sand People settlement, but his feelings were understandable, especially after having been taught for the last decade to push them out.

(this also ignores the fact that shmi DID have a loving family, but to anakin, she was left to rot on tatooine *shrugs*)

The whole slavery thing has always been a big elephant in the Star Wars universe regarding the Jedi because..why WOULDN’T an organization that helps people and keeps the peace not want to abolish it or push to abolish it? There’s no answer and it makes them look bad to a lot of people. Also, using the Clones and treating them like…they aren’t even alive or their own individual persons. Most of the Jedi treated them like that, where as Anakin and Ahsoka became friends with the 501st and even Obi-Wan had a camaraderie with Cody and his group.

(and do not get me started on obi-wan’s own hypocrisy with his deep feelings for satine)

Individual Jedi can be very interesting and likeable because they get to be PEOPLE when handled right. But as a whole, the Jedi Order is a stagnant entity that does more harm to itself than good and ultimately, due to their apathy for certain things and stringent codes, they destroyed themselves from within by not HELPING Anakin and Palpatine used that against them.

Also, look up cases where Jedi did maniplute families into giving up their force sensitive children and you have that can of worms, too.

(this doesn’t mean they’re anywhere near as bad as the sith could be, but they are not this bastion of comeplete goodness either. it has its darker side to it that even they themselves try to ignore)