#Of the concepts for Undertale and Deltarune. Particularly in the Genocide Route of Undertale. Like look at the hack and read the making of.
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makerofmadness · 1 year ago
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I swear I have something I've found something
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From "the making of" (with the earthbound Halloween hack)
you know how sometimes people will take their old bad fanworks and remake it into something like actually good and also probably an original work? I've done that a few times. Anyway:
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Can you see what I'm getting at here?
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"Varik is almost dead, and yet he can't stop moving because you keep pushing those buttons."
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pqrfi · 3 months ago
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Deltarune is to Undertale what Alice Through The Looking Glass is to Alice in Wonderland
hear me out real quick.
we’re talking specifically about the books which i have read and annotated in full. i don’t have my copies present anymore so i undoubtedly missed some things but there are still SO many similarities thematically, visually, and simply storyline wise. maybe deltarune theories could even be crafted from this concept, idk! i just know ive been thinking this since i first got into deltarune and not enough people talk about it.
fun fact: alice in wonderland was originally called “alice’s adventures underground”……………… yall.
(also to preface i wrote this while high for a friend who doesn’t know anything abt utdr, so that’s why everything is explained in full)
beginning with undertale and alice in wonderland:
both stories begin with a child falling through a hole in the ground to a fully functioning world with completely different ways of life and rules of existence. both of these worlds flip common ideas on their heads, example plants talking as flowey in undertale vs the talking tulips in alice in wonderland. animals talk as well and come to life in their own society, example the monsters vs the white rabbit, the bitchy mouse, the walrus and the dodo bird. both the main characters, frisk n alice, don’t reject this (past the initial confusion in alice’s case, but even then it’s more like wonder (lol get it)) and interact with this. they each see problems in the world and move to save it, with frisk trying to break the barrier and save monsters (in pacifist run) and alice protesting the queen of hearts’ unfair actions! wonderland is portrayed as a world ruled with nonsense and chaos, like the aforementioned idea of flipping everything on its head from the world the protags come from. in frisk’s case this was by monsters, who they didn’t know existed, being essentially the ruling (yet also subjugated) class whereas they were accustomed to humans. these monsters came in the portrayal of animals and plants and other whimsical concepts coming to life, just like the nonsense elements of wonderland. a big aspect of alice in wonderland is the importance of imagination, the question of if there is any real meaning to life, and the tedious routines, while undertale literally uses this in its meta element by requiring the player to submerge themselves (with Imagination) into the game particularly in order to empathize w these characters and complete a pacifist run but even also in a genocide run the game compels the player with strong themes and language to imagine it as something real and to feel guilt for those actions. aiw’s (alice in wonderland)’s concept of the meaning of life can be seen in undertale as treating these characters who the player knows are fictional as real beings who deserve to survive simply out of respect for their existence!!!!! and the save points also bring in the question of if that life in the game has meaning if you can just always go back and redo stuff, which is floweys whole dilemma and how he ends up the way he does because he feels there IS no meaning. this is his lack of soul speaking but i think the save points and their repetitiveness really drive it home. aiw’s theme of the loss of a child’s innocence is obvious in undertale because frisk has to do horrible things and/or make terribly hard decisions no matter which route is taken!!! and even choosing to take a specific route IS making those hard decisions. both have themes of death, flowey and the monsters in the genocide run representing these while alice’s transformation and growth out of the mind of a young girl is death in the way the death tarot card represents it: change. the caterpillar’s mitosis or whatever also represents this. in both alternate worlds death doesn’t have the same appearance it does in the “natural world” in undertale monsters disintegrate and in wonderland time does not pass the same as seen by the mad hatter and the hare. OH AND both seem to have the voice of a helping hand guiding the protag through, for alice it is possibly the very concept of adulthood and for frisk it could be so many different people, gaster? chara? asriel? toriel? toriel would very much symbolize the adulthood aspect but in a much more loving sense than alice’s. asriel and chara as well since they have stopped aging and cannot grow anymore. also sans and the cheshire cat mirror each other change my mind you can’t
deltarune to alice through the looking glass:
the simplest comparison between both is the use of chess as visual AND narrative symbolism. in deltarune we see lancer and the king with the spades, the spade knights, the very concept of the KNIGHT as such a huge aspect with so much mystery surrounding them. in the looking glass, alice enters immediately to a living game of chess and throughout the entire story the red and white queen and their fellow chess pieces are significant characters. this is a reach probably but in both of these stories the protag (kris (and susie) vs alice) enter to their respective worlds which ARE DIFFERENT from the previous ones despite similarities through an entry in the Wall which appears normal and then transforms. for kris n susie it is through a door to the closet and for alice it’s through a mirror. no more holes! this wouldn’t matter i dont think if their prequels didnt both have the protags falling Into holes. the chess-piece characters in each story behave like their respective piece: ex, the king in deltarune not appearing combatively until the card kingdom is threatened vs the knights in the looking glass having a protective role. in each story the protag has to face a world threatening element that THEY ARE PROPHESIED to take on, example deltarune ralsei’s tale of kris susie and ralsei being destined to save the world from the dark fountains being opened vs the jabberwockys threat to the entire world of the looking glass and ALICE BEINR PROPHESIED to destroy it. (as a theory, she does complete this, so i’d like to say it hints to kris ralsei and susie doing the same)
deltarune is to undertale as alice through the looking glass is to alice in wonderland:
the biggest dissimilarity here is that alice is the same character and self in both of her stories whereas kris is completely different from frisk (and who knows about any relation to chara or anyone else). yet both worlds that the protags travel to in both of their two different stories are separate from each other, and although perhaps connected somehow are not really on the same plane of existence as the other (but both get mistaken as otherwise). the og story in both udtr and the alice duology tells the story of growing up and maturing through the challenges the protags had to face, whereas it seems like their sequels are telling a story of the challenges you face once you have finished or made it through a lot of this growth and now have to handle the responsibility and strength that comes with it. it’s of course harder to say for the sequels since deltarune isn’t completed but the similarities between deltarune and through the looking glass are HUGE and GLARING so it could almost be used as a basis for theories i find it very hard to believe none of these huge comparisons are intentional
i gotta mention how deltarune/through the looking glass were the stories with the similarities i saw most that inspired this idea, yet once i got into writing i found SO many in undertale. which just kind of drives the point home.
sorry if any of the info is wrong! i don’t usually go here… but someone else pls agree it drives me insane this isn’t talked about much
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zirkkun · 4 years ago
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📂 Tell me more than one. I like hearing your ideas.
Hoo boy. Giving me no limit to my thoughts is too much power lol I'll limit myself to 5 for now???
1) UT Sans is the type of person to not particularly enjoy physical contact and usually avoids most any other than like, basic things (handshake, tapping a shoulder, etc). But when he's super close to someone, he's the exact opposite and will cling to them as if he needs it to survive. I kind of project this onto Error too, where like his fear for touch comes from the fact that he'd witnessed everyone he cared about die as Geno, so he doesn't believe he can get close to anyone again, leaving him in fear of all physical contact.
2) Gaster didn't do anything wrong. Everyone seems to write Gaster like he's done something wrong in Undertale or was a terrible person that experimented on Sans and Papyrus or something, but there's really nothing to say that he was. I'm convinced he was well-respected in the Underground as a scientist and merely died from a scientific failure of sorts. Due to his odd sprite, I'd assume it was Determination-based, but the idea that he "fell into the CORE" has genuinely always confused me. Did they throw his dust into the CORE? Did he sacrifice himself to power the CORE? Was their misinformation spread after his death (hence why all the Gaster Followers say something different)? I dunno lol
3) this one is. Pretty out-there. But I have this theory that Sans and Jevil were purposefully designed to be foils (aka characters who are exact opposites) and may possibly represent some kind of god and demon, respectively. Both of them have specific requirements that lead to their battle that requires extra work from the player, first of all, so they're technically both under the "optional fight" category. Both of these fights are even completely opposite: Sans's battle is repetitive, easy to predict, and can be beaten through sheer repetition and memorization because there is an order and pattern to each of his attacks. Jevil's, while I think is mostly the same order of attacks, is entirely randomized where things are going to land, so the most you can predict for is what attack is coming next, but not where to start, where to go, etc. It's chaotic. To get to Sans, you have to climb up through the Underground, because the Judgement Hall is nearly the peak of the mountain, and that's where he'll judge you. Not to mention, it's pretty church-like in the Hall. Those who get past him, go to the Surface, where the Delta Rune legend's Fallen Angel is from. Not to mention everyone praises the Surface like it's the most beautiful place in the world. Jevil, on the other hand, is in the lowest part of the Dark World you can possibly go to, and was put down there to be locked away for the chaos he'd caused. He's convinced that he's free while in that cage, because no one will bother him. There's no social norms or laws to break because he's the only one in there. Those OUTSIDE of it are the ones that have to abide by rules. That and... Jevil? Devil? Yeah, pretty obvious.
I could go on for hours about this theory ... But something tells me I'm looking too deep into it and if Toby saw it he'd just be like "neat. Didn't even think about that." LMAO
4) While it can definitely be assumed that Sans knows about resets, alternate timelines, etc. from his mention of them in the Genocide battle as well as the fact he has a (many?) quantum physics book, which the concept of alternate universes comes from quantum physics, I don't think in every timeline he recognizes the resets. At the VERY least, he has something to keep tabs on Undertale's "code," for lack of a better term, because he straight up tells you in the Genocide fight that he noticed that you were suddenly there by recognizing you were an anomaly. I'm convinced this is because you, the player, have been the only thing that has an outside influence on their world, one of the only things that has been able to mess with the "code" in the way of resets, saving, literally glitching things (I'm pretty sure there's like an easter egg where you can walk through the wall in the MTT Resort or I totally dreamt that). At the same time, I don't think Sans recognizes that there's someone controlling Frisk, and just sees this "anomaly" as Frisk. Additionally to this, I'm pretty much convinced Sans hates Frisk/the player/possibly even so far as humans as a whole by default. Because of the way he speaks to you about everything in the Genocide run, saying something along the lines of he only tried being nice to guide you on the correct path for everyone else's desire to go to the Surface (cause we know he couldn't give two shits about going to the Surface or not. Even on a neutral/pacifist route on the MTT Resort date he'll try and convince you to stay before deciding to take it back.)
5) Frisk is a vessel like mentioned in the beginning of Deltarune. While you can't choose how Frisk looks, you can choose everything else about Frisk. Unlike Kris, there are no pre-determined relationships or actions to shape Frisk's character, and Frisk does very, VERY little on their own, unless you play Genocide. Notably, I think a lot about how Kris is a lot more independent of a character, because he fights back against your actions, and when he does it's the one time we see an expression from him and his eyes. The main point of Deltarune is "your choices don't matter." The other character that said our choices don't matter? Chara. At the end of Genocide, if you choose to not erase the world, Chara will say, "When were you the one in control?" I feel like most people take this as they were speaking to the player directly, but I've always taken it as they were talking to Frisk directly. Chara can't see us, but they can see Frisk. They know Frisk is being controlled -- and, to compare again to Kris, possibly because we cannot see Frisk's eyes. They walk around blindly, so they have to be guided by SOMETHING, right? In this case, that something is the player. Frisk is nothing but a vessel for us to communicate with the game.
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Okay that got LONG I'm sorry avdhsbs it's a v good thing i preemptively told myself only 5 because I could go on for. Forever.
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