#No all of the above choice? Ex wife deserves all of the wives

[aspenthicket]

What do you think of Jane Seymour’s portrayal in Six?

thank you so much for giving me an excuse to talk about this

So, here’s an opinion I have not seen (to this level, at least) in regards to Jane Seymour: I have just as many issues with her portrayal as I have with Anne Boleyn’s. The thing about Anne though is that most people agree, including the writers! There’s this self-awareness that Anne could and should have been written differently, which I’m happy about. So I suppose that makes me a little more comfortable with it. With Jane, there seems to be less acknowledgement, at least, of the issues with her portrayal.

Let’s start with her introduction in “Ex-Wives.” I’m a fan! Minus the “only one he truly loved” bit, but if that’s played as her quoting historians and followed by her looking... unsure, it still works. Anyway! I love, love, love the fact that her intro basically says “You only know me as the quiet English rose, but there’s more to me.”

On one hand, the musical does show a bit of a different side of her by giving her lines that give her more depth by allowing her to be angry, even when it’s played for laughs (babymarygotthechickenpoxandYOUweren’tthere—). On the other hand, that’s the only thing the musical does to show something different than the typical documentary claims.

The one complaint I have seen of her portrayal is usually in reference to Edward. And I agree! Jane is made this decidedly mother figure for the son she is known for. I mean, to be blunt, she is/was remembered for having a son and then dying. If anything, her song reinforces this, never touching on her devotion to her religion or the times she did take risks with Henry. Jane is made into only a mother figure and devoted wife vs Catherine of Aragon being a deep character who is a mother among many other things vs Anne Boelyn who gets one mention of her daughter and only in relation to “had a daughter, got beheaded.” I’d argue that only Catherine is done fairly (if we’re counting only the biological mothers, at least) when it comes to their children.

But that’s not the end of it. There’s one line that bothers me more than the above and that is when Jane says, leading into her song, that she did not fear Henry, she loved him. Now, I understand that she may have convinced herself of this, but for a musical that ignores the fact that Catherine of Aragon truly loved Henry and forgave him on her deathbed (even though he clearly didn’t deserve it) and would probably have much more complicated feelings toward Henry than portrayed, I find the choice to claim Jane was in love with Henry questionable at best. I would argue that there’s more substance to saying that Jane had witnessed first hand what had happened with both Catherine and Anne and had made the decision to not share either of their fates. She was the polar opposite of Anne, so much so that it seems intentional. And that means one thing: she feared Henry, as all the wives had (at least after Catherine and/or Anne).

The comment that she loved Henry could have worked had it come out either in her song or later in the musical that she’s realized she didn’t love him at all, but that never happens. This is such a problem that people hear her part in “Six” and automatically assume that she means that she still wants to be with Henry (even though reading into the lines prove that to not be the case).

I do, however, recognize that in the chorus + the whole “You came my way and I knew a storm could come too / you’d lift me high or let me fall” show a depth that I’m not fully delving into, but it feels very much like a “Say No to This” situation from Hamilton. That song has depth and this entire game of an unreliable narrator feeding the victim her dialogue until she breaks down and speaks for herself, but because the musical never follows it up with truth, all of this typically flies over the audience’s head and people peg Maria as a villain when she was anything but. In “Heart of Stone” there are many signs that Jane’s being abused, knows it, and perhaps is more putting up with it for her own survival (and later Edward) than out of love, but in the moment this flies over the audience’s head. There’s no follow up, so it falls flat. I think that some of the more common fandom portrayals show this (ie. her being the only motherly figure even though all of the other queens were either mothers or step-mothers, her being portrayed as naive/innocent, etc).

So to sum it up, I guess my thoughts are that “stick around and you’ll suddenly see more” should have actually held more truth and that Jane is more interesting than the musical lets on.

[bleed-for-privilege]

I am also an atheist and I understand how easy it is to blame religions for so many things, but at the end of the day, I think I owe it to those who are religious to respect their beliefs and not to disrespect what they genuinely believe is the truth. I can't tell you to stop being anti-islam, that would be unrealistic, but I can ask you to at least educate yourself on the religion before you decide to hate upon it based off what the media tells you, or based off of what it's abusers say (2)

1) Okay, so I first just want to thank you for being respectful, and not jumping to insults. It’s rare these days.

2) I’ve realized that I never really talk about Islam, and just kind of reblog stuff about it and make fun of it. But to be fair, I make fun of all religions.

3) May I ask what post it was exactly? I understand how it can be taken as “anti-Islam” so I just want to make it clear how I feel about Islam first. I DO NOT hate all Muslims. Those who actually follow it peacefully (moderates) deserve respect, and I will not hate nor judge them. However, this doesn’t mean I have to respect their religion and what is stands for.

5) “… we cannot blame an entire religion for the doings of those who use it to give a meaning to their actions.” 

No, but too many Muslims are using it the wrong way. This is a problem. Are the moderate Muslims speaking out against the ones who use the Qu’ran the “wrong” way?

6) You also said that they aren’t real Muslims and don’t understand the true meaning of Islam. But what is the true meaning of Islam? The Qu’ran is very violent, how are they supposed to follow the Qu’ran and still be peaceful?

Versus against non-Muslims:

Quran (3:56) - “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Quran (4:104) - “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…”

Quran (8:12) - “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.”

Quran (9:123) - “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”

Quran (17:16) - “And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.”

Quran (66:9) - “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.”

Sahih Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] “I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.” 

(and plenty more)

Verses against homosexuality:

Quran (7:80-84) - “…For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds…. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)” (executed for your sexuality)

Quran (26:165-166) - “Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing” (apparently, Allah is offended by homosexuality, because he had intended for women to be used by men, not for men to be used by other men)

Quran (4:16) - “If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone” (apparently, you have to repent from being a homosexual)

Quran (76:19) bluntly states, “And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls.” Technically, the mere presence of boys doesn’t necessarily mean sex, however it is strongly implied from the particular emphasis on the effeminacy, handsomeness and “freshness” of the boys. The female virgins of paradise are also compared to pearls (56:23). (another contradictory)

Abu Dawud (4448) - “If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.” (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one’s wife. Just more homophobia, more sexism…)

Sahih Bukhari (72:774) - “The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, ‘Turn them out of your houses.’ (intolerant gender roles)

(and plenty more)

“… Homosexuals are demonized, banned, beaten, probed, forced into marriage, flogged,  incarcerated, lashed, hanged, brutalized, stoned, thrown from roofs, tortured and shot.” 

(source)

Versus about (or should I say against?) Women’s Rights:

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females”

Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) “And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women.” (Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man’s testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman’s, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they make more reliable witnesses. Just plain misogyny, no justifying that)

Quran (2:228) - “and the men are a degree above them [women]”

Quran (5:6) - “And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it” (Men are to rub dirt on their hands, if there is no water to purify them, following casual contact with a woman, such as shaking hands).

Quran (2:223) - “Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will…” (A man has dominion over his wives’ bodies as he does his land).

Quran (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) “Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four” (Inequality by numbers).

Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses) (what a feminist religion).

Sahih Bukhari (6:301) - “[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?’ They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.’” (more misogyny)

Sahih Bukhari (6:301) - continued - “[Muhammad said] 'Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?’ The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.’” (Allah has made women deficient in the practice of their religion as well, by giving them menstrual cycles).

Sahih Bukhari (2:28) & Sahih Bukhari (54:464) - Women comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven mentioned explicitly by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).

Sahih Bukhari (62:81) - “The Prophet said: ”'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women’s) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).’“ In other words, the most important thing a woman brings to marriage is between her legs.

Sahih Bukhari (62:58) - A woman presents herself in marriage to Muhammad, but he does not find her attractive, so he "donates” her on the spot to another man.

(I can’t use them all, but there are so much more found here.)

If the Qu’ran is not meant to be taken literally, then how are we supposed to interpret it? (I know some verses pertain to war, but that’s hardly peaceful isn’t it?). I am also aware of the fact that there are tolerant, peaceful, and loving versus in the Qu’ran, but the aforementioned versus contradict these good versus, right?

7) “… before you decide to hate upon it based off what the media tells you, or based off of what it’s abusers say.” You’re right, no one should listen to what the media says, but I’ve listened to what actual Muslims had to say. 

Sarah Haider speaking about her experiences as a Muslim (Shia) woman, and why she left (video).

Main points she makes:

“Sharia Law tells you how inheritance with men and women is different. And it doesn’t really make sense why a daughter would get less inheritance as a son… it’s very clear that it’s not an egalitarian religion.” (2:51)

“… You have every right to believe [Islam], in the privacy of your own home. I have a problem when those beliefs start harming other people, when they start harming women, when they start harming children…” (3:47)

“… Because it is so difficult to leave [Islam], I think it is really important to have those support and community networks.” (4:10)

“Criticism of Islam can be construed to be ‘hate speech’ some people believe that. I don’t.” (4:33)

“I think anti-Muslim bigotry which is bigotry against Muslim as a people and criticism of Islam are two very different concepts. And it’s very important that we hold them apart as much as possible, so that our dialogue can be constructive.” (4:38)

8) Muhammad Syed another Ex-Muslim speaking about Islam (video).

Interviewer: “Is ISIS you think about the religion of Islam, or do you think ISIS is about something else? 

Muhammad: “Um, it’s a bit of both… but what they’re doing, the way they are governing, is very very Islamic. If you read early Islamic texts, that’s exactly the way the governments were formed, and they’d operate. Um, there are a few discrepancies here and there, but for the vast majority, it is following Islamic scripture.” (1:10 - 1:45)

He also mentions that the root of violence in Islam comes from the Old Testament where violence was normal. So that justifies it, right? No. They are still following the Qu’ran violently, whereas other religions just ignore it. Which is hypocritical, yes, but they aren’t harming people. 

9) I think since we’re both atheists, neither of us should pretend to know everything about Islam. We should listen to the ones who have actually experienced it.I also want to stress the fact that I don’t care what Muslims did in the past, I care about what they are doing now.

I also know that Sharia Law is different everywhere, there are different types of Islam, and some countries are worse than others, but I still find it funny how they are called the Religion of Peace, when they fought so many wars back then (and are still violent).

10) Once again, I have no issue with moderate Muslims. I have an issue with what their religion is causing other people to do. So when I make fun of Islam, I’m not really talking about the peaceful ones. I know they exist, and I respect them as people. I don’t (and never will) however, respect their religion and/or what it stands for. As an atheist, I will always be anti-religion. Not anti-human.