#LIKE NO ARMAND!!!! YOU WERE A CHILD AND A SEX SLAVE! THAT MARIUS BOUGHT!!!

[tboy-molloy]

Thinking about this one fic where Armand had a panic attack because he was worried that he was doing the exact same thing Marius did to him to Daniel.

It was so fucking well written and gave me psychic damage, if you know the name please tell me

[beneath-the-willow-tree]

I think a lot of people dont realize book armand was enslaved because they arent aware white western europeans did enslave and forcefully stripped white eastern europeans out of their culture in the past a lot. I specifically see marius' behaviour and prejudice towards amadeos eastern background not talked about much. Still, this doesnt justify not realizing amadeo was legally bought and owned as a sex life. And this still happens today. People are trafficked. Imo his enslavement will be put front and center in the show. With Armand being south asian there is no way marius&armand will be treated as a father&son dynamic. Armand can see him as a father but first and foremost its going to be presented and seen as a slave owner& his slave

I agree that this is probably part of it.

I think when many people hear the word “slave” they think of something more akin to the transatlantic slave trade, not Roman pederasty, which is the model for Marius and Amadeo’s relationship and sort of what I was alluding to in my original post. Marius doesn’t treat Amadeo the way we might think of slaveowners treating their slaves in a more modern context — aside from whipping him as a punishment — but Amadeo’s status as a slave and a foreigner (specifically from a region Marius deems “savage” in comparison to Italy) is what emboldens Marius to sexually exploit and groom him, because Marius comes from a society in which an adult man could legally have sexual relations with a younger boy only if the boy was a prostitute or slave — and often a non-Roman, but not necessarily non-European, one. (Disclaimer: I am not an expert on pederasty in Ancient Rome, so if anyone more knowledgeable would like to correct or add to anything I’ve said here, please do.) Considering Marius derives most of his personal philosophy from Ancient Roman ideals in a somewhat legalistic manner, I simply do not think he would have sex with Amadeo were Amadeo not a slave — though I am open to other takes on that.

In my — potentially unpopular — opinion, the abusive/incestuous parent/child dynamic is not the most useful analytical framework to apply to Marius and Amadeo’s relationship, because while Marius views Amadeo as a son, and Amadeo views Marius as a father figure, these roles ultimately are pretense (Amadeo is still a slave from a legal standpoint, and even centuries later, as Armand, he continues to refer to Marius as his master) and treating them as legitimate obfuscates the nature of the structures that enable abuse in their relationship. This is not to say that the nuclear family as a social model does not enable abuse, of course — just that it’s not the only social model that enables abuse, and trying to map familial roles onto other types of abusive relationships can be misrepresentative. The maker/fledgling bond does lend itself to a familial reading more than Marius and Amadeo’s vampire/human relationship does, but it gets a bit more complicated than human familial relationships, so that’s a topic for another day, perhaps.

I completely agree re: the show emphasizing Armand’s enslavement — especially if they end up adapting any of TVA, since no one in Renaissance Venice is going to look at a South Asian boy and assume he’s a rich Italian man’s son. I also think it’s going to make Marius’s racism a lot more obvious and uncomfortable, which is great, because it is uncomfortable! Even if you ship them, it’s hard to overlook that Marius denigrates Armand’s cultural upbringing. But like you said, many people don’t talk about it much in the context of the books because they’re not as aware of bigotry against Eastern Europeans as they might be of other forms of bigotry. And while Armand’s backstory doesn’t directly mirror the way sex slavery operates today, you are totally correct that it still happens — and it is often still Eastern Europeans who are trafficked in Western Europe.

[armandposting]

i think the biggest anne rice crime in tva, of which there are countless, is the fact that marius in his attempt to get armand to stop asking him about the vampirism thing calls him a baby that doesn't know anything and armand insists no were sleeping together im an adult right? and marius retaliates by sending him to not one but TWO DIFFERENT BROTHELS one with adult women and the second with boys (younger? then him) and the book doesn't even bother to talk about the abject cruelty of marius sending the child sex slave he bought in a brothel to other brothels (one of which is filled with presumably other child sex slaves) and instead focuses entirely on how marius gets mad that armand liked it. insane. criminal even. anne rice WHAT WAS THAT

thats one of those parts where I'm like ok setting aside the insanity for a minute. lol. because it's one of MULTIPLE times where marius does some crazy shit that has an easily foreseeable consequence (that he often Does In Fact Foresee) that makes him go >:( when it actually happens. he's like oh I'm such a nice and cool dad I'm going to send armand to learn about human sex so that he will enjoy it and not want to be a vampire :^) and then armand enjoys it and marius is like hey wait what about me >:( which is extra stupid because while armand DOES somewhat enjoy it his first reaction is to come home and try out all the stuff he's learned on marius because he spent the whole time missing him. so like don't worry bud your grooming is still absolutely holding there but he has the audacity to be jealous anyway about a situation he created. marius. literally what are you doing ever

[bitter-limelight]

So I'm only dipping my toes in "interview..." fandom and I might be swinging on hornets' nest here but

Why is Armand/Marius such a popular ship? Wasn't Armand like 15 when they met?

Woooo ok now this is an ask, Anon, and one I'm excited to answer!

I'm going to preference this with warnings though. Talk of Marius/Armand always leads to talk of Marius/Amadeo, which is discussion of consent, underage sex, historical changes of behavior, abuse, rape, and physical punishment. Just to round out the categories.

Yes, Armand, or Amadeo as Marius named him, was 15 when Marius bought him from a brothel and yes they were immediately lovers. Marius and Armand's relationship is between a fifteen year old mortal and a 1500 year old vampire in the body of a 40 year old man. Get that clear and out of the way.

Now as to your question, why do people ship it? Well. A lot of reasons. Let's start with the fact that TVA I. The Venice years is written as a love story. It's a romance. And I know some people will point out that it can't be a romance story, it's noncon/dubcon/statutory etc. But that doesn't mean it's not a romance. Romance can be and often is full of Proeblantic Content. Let's looks at just some of the romance tropes M/A hits on-

Teacher/Student. Tale as old as time. It's a very basic erotic fantasy, the older man, the one in authority, the one who will guide you and teach you and look after you. Marius is teacher to Amadeo, in the ways of art, history, language, culture. The power unbalance is implicit in this kink

Rescue Fantasy - another common one, as much emotional as physical or sexual. So many people who live in absusive homes or relationships or live with the trauma of that abuse fantasize about someone coming to take them away from it all, be it a pirate captain, a Viking warlord, or One Direction

Incest- like it or not incest is a hell of a kink. Everyone's mom got off to Flowers in the Attic, and there's been media for ages that deals romantically with incest. Angel Sanctuary comes to mind. Marius refers to Armand as his son and raises him as one in many ways. It's another part of the taboo power play.

Whisked Away- this is the one talked about the most in fandom circles and it's related to Rescue Fantasy. This is the captured bride, the arranged marriage, the sold to a king, the harem, the war bride, the sex slave. "Oh I can't let myself enjoy my body and my desires but what if someone stole me and made me and I had no choice?"

"ok but he's 15." Yes. But again none of that negates the previous things. And in fact it only draws me to another point- he's also not real. He isn't real. Armand isn't real. Marius isn't real. All of this is fantasy make believe and in Make Believe land you can do anything you want. Really. You can.

I think people forget that TVC is not a series written for teens. I know a TON of us read it as teens, or younger, many admit to reading it TOO YOUNG, but the fact is these are adult works written for an adult audience and such books, especially romance and horror and historical novels, often contain taboo material and not just taboo material that is explicitly condemned. Because it's assumed that the reader, as an adult, doesn't need the disclaimer to their fantasy to know it's not ok in real life. And this is *fantasy*. Vampires are not real either. I always have to wonder if people would be so upset about M/A if Marius was 1500 but physically 16 or 17. That's still not a child, that's still an immortal creature, but it's one that wouldn't set people off so much. And like. They're Vampires. They simply don't see age the same way. Even Lestat says he could make a child fall in love with me. It's part and parcel with their age.

Why do I ship Marius/Armand? Because I come from an abusive home full of religious trauma, because I was unwanted, because I had no parents who wanted me. Because I was struggling with my sexuality and gender at a young age and stories like these were my favorite fantasy. *Fantasy*. I knew this thing wasn't real but the fantasies helped me escape and it still does. Because I know that fantasy and reality don't have a one to one equal affect. Because I'm an adult and I interact with other adults who also understand this trauma and why we deal with it this way. Because their story is beautiful and horrible and romantic and tragic and dark and glittering and attractive and terrifying. Because they are fucking AMAZING characters in an amazing story and I love that.

Loving this kind of relationship is not new or novel but being so confused about it and anti behavior is.