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ladyhistorypod · 4 years ago

Text

Episode 4: Let’s Ms. Behave

Sources:

Charlotte Corday

The British Museum

Brooklyn Museum

Find A Grave

History Channel

UCL Art Museum

Encyclopedia Womannica (Podcast)

The Blonding of Charlotte Corday

Giulia Tofana

Wut. (Podcast)

History Collection

Historical Post

Medium

Mike Dash

Virginia Hill

The Mob Museum

Encyclopedia of Chicago

Alabama

Further reading/watching: The Damned Don’t Cry (1950 film), Bugsy's Baby: The Secret Life of Mob Queen Virginia Hill (eye roll from Alana), Virginia Hill (1974 film)

Click below for a full transcript of the episode!

Lexi: A brief warning about the following episode of Lady History: this episode contains sensitive topics, such as suicide and murder. If you or someone you know needs help, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. To learn more, visit suicidepreventionhotline.org

Alana: I think my therapist is listening to our podcast.

Haley: Wait what really?

Alana: Yeah. Because I was looking at like our dem– like our listenership and it said a bunch of people in Arlington and I don't know that many people in Arlington. I know like my mom's... my parents’ like family friend from… my dad like went to high school with them and then they introduced my parents and we call her my Arlington mom and so I was like oh maybe it's her but that's too many people to just be her and I think my therapist lives in Arlington and I told her about this so shout out Dr. Sterman.

Haley: I would love–

Alana: If you’re listening.

Haley: –Your next session she's like ‘by the way I don't listen to your podcast’ even though... and just like out herself from… not super listening but also listening we just had…

Alana: I might bring it up. I'm seeing her on Tuesday, virtually obviously, but I’m seeing her on Tuesday.

Haley: ‘Just wondering, do you listen to my podcast?’

Alana: Well I'm going to talk about how like ‘oh I started my podcast and it's doing this this and this for my mental health’ and then be like… just see if she says she’s listening.

Haley: I feel like she wouldn’t though. I feel like she wouldn’t just to…

Alana: I don’t know if she would.

Lexi: Does that cross the like professional boundary?

Haley: Yeah…

Alana: Is that a HIPAA violation?

Lexi: Is it though? It’s only a podcast

Haley: Well none of us are in the medical field.

Lexi: No. We are not.

Alana: Let us know.

Haley: So we can’t have a definitive answer. But I can see someone–

Lexi: Hey if you're in the medical field or are a certified therapist please email us at [email protected] and let us know if listening to your patient’s podcast violates HIPAA.

(Alana laughing)

Lexi: Thank you. You can also email other stuff there. Don't, don't– you don't have to be a doctor to email us.

Alana: No. I also I have a– because you can do asks on Tumblr, and I have our ask page for the Tumblr– Lady History pod dot tumblr dot com– I have… you can suggest a lady.

Lexi: Please, suggest ladies.

Haley: I would love that.

Lexi: Please suggest ladies to us at Lady History pod dot tumblr dot com.

Alana: You can also DM us, and as previously mentioned if you DM the Instagram that's Lexi and if you DM the Twitter that's me and they're both at LadyHistoryPod. We're gonna plug that again at the end so it's just a constant cycle.

Haley: No one can slide into my DMs. I'll just use one of… if you want to slide into my DMs, use like, the Twitter and just be like this is for Sprinklebear McPuss-n-Boots and they’ll know it’s for me.

Lexi: Okay if you DM or email any of the accounts, if you need the message to go to Haley, please use that name only. Any messages directed to Haley will not be given to her.

Alana: We’ll be like ‘who’s Haley?’

Lexi: So go back–

Haley: I don’t even know what I said. I forgot.

Lexi: No, so go back–

Alana: Sprinklebear McPuss-n-Boots and I will never forget it.

Lexi: Just go back, listen to that however many times you need to to get it in your brain, and then use that when you address Haley in any of your communication to our general inbox.

Alana: Hang on, my light went away because I have to go change Haley’s contact info in my phone.

(Lexi and Alana laughing)

Haley: I really hate if like I am interviewed for a job and they’re like… ��so… Twinklebear McPuss-n-Boots��

(Lexi laughing)

Alana: It was Sprinklebear

Lexi: You didn’t even get it right. She can’t even–

Alana: Sprinkle… Sprinklebear…

(Lexi laughing)

Haley: I used to have a crush on Puss-n-Boots when Shrek first came out.

[INTRO MUSIC]

Alana: Hello and welcome to Lady History, the good, the bad, and the ugly ladies you missed in history class. I’m the next best thing to being in the same room as Lexi. Lexi, what's the name of your favorite plant?

Lexi: My favorite plant is probably a pothos. Just really cute, a cute plant, a good plant, grows well, grows well in my climate, has not failed me, has not died, so that is why I love the pothos.

Alana: And also in the virtual studio is Haley. Haley, how’s the weather?

Haley: It's quite gloomy. I am in San Francisco so we're still dealing with the wildfires. But I think it's just Karl the fog today.

Alana: Karl the fog?

Haley: Yeah the San Francisco like fog that just like looms over this bay area is called Karl. He even has a Twitter, a whole kids’ picture book. Karl the fog.

Alana: That's giving me An Absolutely Remarkable Thing by Hank Green vibes.

Haley: And also, oh, the SF MOMA… the new building of it is Karl the fog. It doesn't– it looks kind of like a… like an old time steam iron, like on an ironing board. But it's like meant to be Karl the fog. Or like blend in. Karl just mushes his way through San Francisco.

Alana: Oh my god that's incredible.

Haley: Yes.

Alana: And I'm Alana and I theme my canvas tote bags based on event.

Lexi Nice. Solid.

Alana: Thank you.

Haley: So can I tickle your tastebuds with a fun fact?

Lexi: Oh… oh, tickle away.

Alana (whispering): Tickle your tastebuds…

Speaker 1: This is either going to be like the best thing I've ever created because like– let me just give you a side note: I thought of this joke while taking shower and was cracking up for ten minutes.

(Alana laughing)

Haley: It's either– it's probably gonna flop. But, with this fun fact– it’s kind of setting the mood for our crime theme and it's about the guillotine and the family of the guillotine, Dr. Joseph– I think his name’s like Ignace? It looks like Ignatio, but it’s like Ignace Guillotin– was so horrified that like their family member invented such like a horrible thing, and if you don't know what the guillotine is, it is basically a big sharp knife that comes down from a pulley, will slice your head off, used in many executions– that they appeal to the French government to change the name and the French government just took it to a step higher and was like no we won't change the name but we will make it one of like the official ways of executing people. more s– to the point that the last execution was like in the 1970s. And this is like across Europe and at least for France it was in 1977. So this is where it gets to my cringy joke because I've used this before. If you want a sick burn while your parents are talking about their childhood and they grew up in like the 60s, 70s, you can just go ‘Pft, the land and time of the guillotine. Such heathens.�� And I like this more than the… the burn that goes like ‘when the dinosaurs roamed’ because dinos just like didn't live when humans lived and it always made me so mad where it’s like I learned that the dinosaurs were born millions of years ago but we have this like iconic just… execution machine that was used for so so long and no one realizes that this was just used until the 70s as a humane way of execution, which like I won't even get into that whole argument. There's so much of a rabbit hole of whether the like guillotine was humane or not. But it's just– it's almost funnier because like it did happen this was an ironic like ‘oh you’re so old you’re like a dinosaur’ this is like ‘you were born when the guillotine was used!’

Alana: Because that's like a burn but it's also true.

Lexi: Yeah. That's the worst kind of burn, I– I mean the best kind of burn because it hurts the worst.

Haley: I once said it to my dad because he was like talking about something when he was like younger and I was like the guillotine just looked at me and was like ‘excuse me?’ I was like ‘you lived during the time of the guillotine, heathen.’ And he was like ‘well…”

Alana: It's true!

Haley: Because he was like ‘no that's like the Middle Ages’ and I was like ‘let me school you on some facts. And that actually is a great segue into my first gal.

Alana: Alright, let's go Haley.

Haley: Uh, so my gal, like Artemisia, we have another one with her own movie. It's an unfortunate movie because I couldn't find it anywhere, but who am I talking about… Charlotte Corday. And other names include… side note, I don’t speak French, I speak Spanish. Please don’t come after me, with my horrible horrible French pronunciations, I had my boyfriend, who speaks some French, pronounce them to me… probably didn't remember anything that he said to me. Her other names are Corday d’Armont, Marie-Anne Charlotte, and now her like more modern name is Charlotte Corday the Assassin. So I love Charlotte as a topic, because other podcasts, like crime, history, women's studies, have covered her to an extent. Like I– you'll see in the show notes I like I've even used her– thanks, Encyclopedia Womannica. But on the other hand, not many people know about her. And they don't even know like her influence with the French Revolution because I've been in like many discussions about like history of crime or what like– the world history that we had to take, and I asked like about her and my even like my history teachers like ‘I don't know who that is’ and everyone just gave me that blank face and it's like wait a minute, this is weird, why isn't this covered. So of course, I'm going to cover it. And let's crack this case wide open before we do a deep dive and go over just like some historical background and some of the people be talking about because I don't want you guys to be lost in this whole mumbo jumbo. So Charlotte was a Girondin sympathizer– again, my French is not good– she came from a family of impoverished aristocrats from a little town outside of Paris, France. And as a noble family she was given the opportunity to go to a formal education, but really this formal education came because her mother and one of her sisters died. And her father was just so grief-stricken and also just couldn't handle the now need to raise two daughters, so he sent them to a Roman Catholic convent so they could get a formal education. During this formal education of hers, she learned about French politics, history of France, and was able to mold her own theories and just ideas about the world around her. Thus, she became a French moderate Republican party member during 1791 and 1793 and this is during the French Revolution.

Alana: I'm guessing that moderate Republican back then doesn't mean the same thing that moderate Republican means now.

Haley: No, not at all. I'll explain more. So that's– this is exactly why I wanted to do our whole kind of let's see the players let's name some names and let's go over some history because just looking at her based on just the woman it's very hard to understand why she's one, seen as a hero; two, seen as a murderous assassin which both are correct in a way.

Lexi: I mean, goals. No I’m just kidding. I’m not condoning murder.

Haley: No so that's basically where she's at in the scope of where she grew up and what role she’ll play in the French Revolution, or what side she was on. And she's also mainly known for murdering Jordian Jean-Paul Marat, and he was on the other side he was Jordian so she was very opposed to his ideals. So again like Alana said is this kind of like what our U. S. politics is like? No, this isn't the Republican Party. However we have two extreme sides and people on one extreme, people on another extreme. That is very much similar. And he was an outspoken leader of the French Revolution to the point where he was the founder of a popular journal, deputy of Paris to the convention, opposed legislation that would hurt the other side, empower him and to Charlotte and other Girondan followers. So now that we cover the big picture ideas and we know the players and we know how extreme both these sides are, let's do our deep dive. She was committed to fighting the Girondist side of the revolution, posing the radical Jacobin faction. So this was right before the Reign of Terror, and why I mention this is because all her actions were to stop a civil war; and the Reign of Terror was a part of the French Revolution that kind of like started the first French Republic and culminated in a series of massacres and like many many public executions. So this is what she tried to stop from happening in French society. However, her whole story and what role she played in the revolution actually caused the Reign of Terror. So that's why for me as– in high school was like why aren't we talking about her and now we're gonna talk about her now. So, we come to the point where our victim Marat was continuing his train of like bloodshed, and was responsible for utter catastrophe, and putting a lot of lives in danger of like the French– like the French people were just terrified of him, to an extent. And that’s why Charlotte just hated him. He was seen as definitely one of the leaders of this one extreme side that had to be taken out. So that's exactly what she kind of planned to do. And she was not in Paris, she was still in another city outside of Paris, France. So, Charlotte stabbed him while he was taking a bath; and that's really the punch line of like her whole story. If you do like a quick Google search you'll get a lot of stuff for her and even in some textbooks that I tried to look at it was just like Charlotte Corday assassin… stabbed Marat in the heart. Really, she stabbed him in a planned assassin while he was taking a bath. I'm gonna just go through the accounts of this whole story because they're not really pieced together in one area and I'm going to piece them together now so you can understand why he was like in a bathtub, why she stabbed him, and so on. Because this just sounds so strange and it's really strange to see this as your history. So the planned assassin started because she wanted, like I said, to stop from a civil war happening in France, and she truly believed that to do this you have to kill one of the leaders; and also to an extent make the other side seem strong in that way. Like if you kill one of the leaders, you prove that the other side is just as strong or stronger. So she originally planned to kill him at a Bastille Day parade to make a huge show of it and this was on July 14th 1793. Unfortunately, or fortunately for her plans in a sense the event was just like it either didn't happen or it became apparent that Marat was not going to be at that public event. So she quickly had to say okay what else can I do, how can… what will be the next step to kill him. On July 13th, so the day before this event was supposed to happen, she was able to get a meet and greet with him or just gain access to him by saying and promising to betray her political side and give some insider secrets– like name names, basically become a traitor. And Marat was like cool you're definitely high up in the Girondin side of it, let you like, come into our area, we’ll hold– like we’ll basically keep you hostage, in a sense, like that's the feel I got… like Marat was also like come to our side because if anything happens you'll be on our turf; and she did. She was like cool, great. You don't know I'm gonna kill you, you think I'm gonna come and like give you all my secrets and then you'll protect me in a way. So Marat was having this meeting in the bathtub, but this was a very normal occurrence for him because he had a terrible skin disease or infection that he would just be in the bath all the time, like the water soothed him. So he was just very vulnerable, but that was his normal state– like nothing was wrong with him taking a meeting in the tub… so like she could be alone with him. It would be more weird if they were just walking around in the streets together. And instead of having this whole conversation that Charlotte said she would, she took this knife out of her bodice that she was just like hiding there and stabbed him in the chest.

Haley: He died almost immediately; and she actually waited for the police to come. She did not run away– she waited and confessed, essentially. She was proud of what she did, she wanted this assassination like the public assassin– assassination to still have some sort of effect on the public to show that her side did it to the other side, she is responsible for ma–Marat, and she did it as this political leader, in a sense. So at the trial, she allegedly proclaimed ‘I killed one man to save a hundred thousand’ and she kept reiterating that this was in fact a planned assassination, this wasn't out of passion. She took some thought, even wrote down like accounts and like had this whole… I saw like some people called it a journal or like statement– different written statements basically on her thoughts of an upcoming civil war and what she thought she was doing to help prevent that. She was also able, before the trial she was able to write down like write a letter and write her thoughts, feelings, concerns to her father. So her father was still alive and was able to get this kinda like last testimony of hers. And of course during this trial because she did essentially plead guilty… she was ordered to be executed via guillotine just four days after the murder; so July 17th 1793. And another quote from a lawyer from all this whole trial came from I think this was a man named Vergniaud, but I couldn't find this quote as in from like a reputable source as yes this was him, so could have been just another lawyer and not this guy. However, someone as a witness to this whole trial on this whole ordeal said ‘She is leading us to our death, but she is showing us how to die’ and it was because he, as a lawyer, saw this whole thing, saw her whole plan, and knew okay this is going to become a massive shit show. Like this won't end well. She is not preventing a civil war; she actually just started a whole other battle. However, she is showing us how to die with dignity, and showing how to like own up to the actions and just just die. Essentially die because a lot of people through the Reign of Terror did die. So you thought I'd be done– and I know this is gonna be my longest but this is such a great great story– because now we get into her overall death legacy, and we do know a lot of things, unlike Amelia Earhart where we just don't know what happened to her after death. A lot of this we still have artifacts and evidence of. She overall became this French savior, like the savior of French society in her circle. Months after her death, there are just so many portraits of her in different scenarios; short hair, long hair– like I needed to go back and make sure these were the same Charlotte Corday and if there could have been multiple Charlotte's just to make sure that these images looked so vastly different. And it was because people wanted to show that she was just this holy woman and ladies now weren't the ones who are supposed to be stuck in the kitchen with raising the kids. They had the power to do something in life and in society, but they also had a spin on it, so like– like I said, she was seen as a savior, this holy woman, goddess… like they even used her Christian name so Marie-Anne Charlotte, which she– to my knowledge, and to my research didn't necessarily go by that name. But there are definitely images of that name and her with very fair skin, white, brunette hair, looking very womanly and accentuating her womanly features. So that really pissed off the other side. Like all Marat’s supporters, they were absolutely flabbergasted that she was getting such a reputation. They thought this can't be happening; she just murdered one of our political leaders, and she was executed for it, why is everyone trying to kind of put this holy cap on her. And yes, that worked to an extent, like their outcry, because like yes she did murder someone. But it didn't help enough, and there were women in French society who did try to distance themselves from her and just for ideas of what women should be like. But, Charlotte did such a good job at like the legend of her as a woman, even before she died, that it didn't matter. Like I read an article about whether she had blonde hair or chestnut brown hair from a 2004 academic article; like this is still being discussed. And she had a part of her reputation– like she knew that whether it started a civil war or not she needed to form her own reputation. And there's even accounts that she witnessed the paintings and drawings of her that would be published and printed post-execution, and she gave comments. She was like no no no no, make me look more like a schoolgirl; or like make me more with curly hair. I don't really know the specifics but it was documented that she would give kind of suggestions on how she would look like. So while she did it, she tried so hard to like make herself look like this holy woman, and yes it did work. Marat, when he died, one of his very close friends, Jacques-Louis David painted the classic portrait or classic image, not portrait The Death of Marat, which is capturing the scene of his death and that is still considered like a classic image and the classic picture from– especially from the French Revolution. So I don't– I don't want to go as far as saying either Charlotte's portrayed as this holy one or this heinous, murderous, like scoundrel because both of them have lasted to this point in history that no one can make up their mind whether this was like a good thing that happened or a bad thing that happened. And I don’t even– I don’t even want to put out like in the universe whether we should have the discussion; if we should say like yes or no. I just wanna give you the facts and let you kind of like decide but that is Charlotte Corday.

Lexi: She is very interesting.

Alana: Yeah that's real cool. That's fun. That was a good transition for… from the guillotine to…

Lexi: Yes, good choice.

Alana: Charlotte Corday. I’m glad we let you go first.

Lexi: Alana hit us. Hit us with it. Don't hit us please don't hit me.

Alana: I won’t hit you. Okay so I will be talking about Giulia Tofana. Um.. Ooooh Haley's face, I'm so excited. I feel like– I hope I do this justice. Oh no. She is Giulia but it’s spelled G-I-U because she's Italian. Okay. So. I like to give credit as we've seen in the past like where I have first found out about my stories. And so I first found out about Ms. Tofana– I should I should call her Giulia not Ms. Tofana because there’s another Tofana, her mother’s name is also Tofana. I heard about this for the first time on Wut. W-U-T which is another great edutainment podcast by women. I'm gonna promo them without needing a sponsorship or a collab because women supporting women. So if you like us, go check them out. That was fun. They're not specifically women's history they're just kind of fun facts in general so not as niche as us but still pretty cool. And then I heard about that podcast from my friend Jesse on Twitter… I think we're friends I don't know I think we're friends… so shout out to Jesse. So Giulia Tofana, G-I-U because she's Italian, lived in the seventeenth century. Exact dates are kind of weird because she was a woman and not highborn. Best guess she was born in Palermo in Sicily. Her mother was executed for poisoning her father, possibly because he was abusive. This is a thing– like a running theme that we’ll see it later. Also later, Giulia's husband died mysteriously, probably also poisoned, probably also abusive. So she moved to Rome at some point in the 1630s-ish, probably, as a widow with her daughter to sell cosmetics and be apothecaries and poison people. Dun dun dun…

Alana: So women in the seventeenth century have so many options. They can be sex workers, they can be essentially auctioned off to almost always abuse of older men and then later if their husbands died become respected widows. Those are your options. So many! So many options! What– how are you going to pick, so many things.

Lexi: The amount of choices is staggering.

Alana: Paralyzed by choice, really. My sources call these women ‘aspiring windows’ as if they are gold diggers and not battered women with no escape. I love– I love that like my running theme is criticizing my sources. That's my thing. Giulia crafted essentially her own poison. Created her own poison, or what by all accounts… she was the one who came up with this. Between like her and her mother and her daughter they came up with this poison called aqua tofana, named after her. It's a combination of arsenic and belladonna and lead, which are things that are already in cosmetics at the time but not quite lethal, still have problems, but not lethal unless they're ingested. And so having these things on a vanity looks totally normal. And so Giulia, as someone who experienced abuse, who had watched her mother get executed for defending herself, essentially… I am not condoning murder, and I know it's never good to say something at the beginning of a sentence like ‘I'm not condoning murder’ and then doing ‘but’... I feel like… there are no options.

Lexi: Self defense.

Alana: Self defense.

Lexi: And it seems very clear– again, we don't know the whole situation but it seems very clear that she was in a bad situation.

Alana: A bad situation. Yeah

Lexi: We are not the judge, jury, or the executioner so we can't say.

Alana: So she, having probably been abused and having watched her mother probably been abused and watched her mother get executed for essentially defending herself… she's going to help these other women get out of their marriages in such a way that it can't be traced. Because this poisoning with this mixture of belladonna and arsenic and lead, it takes really long for someone to die. Really long is like two to three days, but it also looks like natural causes or another illness which always happened in the 1600s. People got sick and died and that was just normal. And it gave these men time to get their affairs in order and to confess their sins and in a very Catholic area at a very Catholic time you like automatically got into heaven as long as you confessed your sins. So since these people had time to confess their sins, our murderess wouldn't have to feel so guilty that she was condemning her husband to hell even though he was probably hurting her. It only takes four to six drops to kill someone, depending on their size and all of that other stuff. And another side fact, side fun fact: Mozart, who nobody knows how Mozart died, Mozart wholeheartedly believed that he was poisoned with aqua tofana, but nobody knows. I feel so good that Haley is just nodding fervently. I feel like I'm doing a good job. Thank you for that.

Haley: I've awkwardly read so much on arsenic poisoning. Just so much so, but yes you are correct. There are probably just so many people who died of arsenic poison in the 1600s because autopsies weren’t like what we have today where you can do a toxicology, so so many people would seem like they were getting ill, because a lot of the times it just looks like a common cold or flu-like symptoms, they just weren't feeling good. But then they would die so now people do toxicology because it's a thirty year old man with no pre-existing conditions. But when you're talking about it in the 1600s it's like ‘oh they got sick we don't have modern medicine to help out.’

Alana: Nobody knows what's happening, essentially. It's like ‘oh no another person got sick.’ So Giulia Tofana sold this with her daughter and some employees at this family business, essentially, which is a weird way to think about it– that the family business is murder. They operated like this for about fifty years, for decades. And… at least the estimated number is something like six hundred plus people died because she sold their wives poison. But she got caught, and legend has it– and there are so many foggy details but this seems way too specific so I think like somebody exaggerated but, one of her clients who had bought the aqua tofana to poison her husband had poisoned a bowl of soup but decided, ‘no, I can’t. I can’t kill someone’ and dramatically knocked it out of his hand. And that's where I am thinking this… somebody exaggerated. Somebody made this up because that's way too specific. But she stopped her husband from eating the soup and confessed her crimes and turned in Giulia Tofana and her daughter and their three employees at the business. And all of them were executed. Under torture, of course, it's the seventeenth century, she turned on a bunch of her clients as well. So a bunch of her clients were also executed. Some of them were not executed, because they claimed that they didn't know that it was poison and it was just ‘oh no, I spilled some of my lotion in my husband’s soup… Oops. Oopsie poopsies I’m only like fourteen I don't know any better.’ I made myself laugh with that one I’m sorry. But those people were spared. So there is something to… was Giulia a hero, was she a murderess, could both of those things be true…

Lexi: Was she an anti-hero?

Alana: She's kind of an anti-hero. I think that's what we’re going for.

Haley: I like that, I like anti-hero.

Alana: I think– I also think like–

Lexi: Like a Robin Hood, but murder.

Alana: Batman, but murder. Does Batman kill people?

Lexi: Robin Hood stole things, he didn't kill anyone. This is like the Robin Hood of murdering people.

Alana: Sure.

Lexi: It's like murder the rich, give to the wife?

Alana: Vigilante!

Lexi: I don't know. Vigilante murder, yeah.

Haley: So far we’re on the track of like ‘our criminals are good, question mark?’

(Alana laughing)

Lexi: Mine was definitely a criminal, but we'll get in that.

Alana: Well, I am done. So, Lexi let’s get into that.

Lexi: What a segue! Okay. So my lady, though definitely also had a lot of background trauma as it seems that a lot of these ladies had definitely did crime. So we'll just jump in. Have you guys ever heard of the queen of the mob?

Haley: Yes. I'm so excited that you're doing this one.

Alana: Maybe. You'll have to tell me her name.

Lexi: Okay.

Haley: This is truly like my favorite episodes so far, and I like hate when people like get really into criminals like some people, like for Jeffrey Dahmer, people love him, think he's like the most beautiful man, same with Ted Bundy, and that's not where my head is at.

Lexi: That’s creepy.

Haley: I have a true fascination with the history of crime, death, medicine, and how our society perceives it now. When I say I love these people or I love these stories that is not where I'm going.

Lexi: You're not doing the whole crime fandom crush thing.

Haley: No.

Alana: I have seen people get like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer's signatures tattooed on themselves.

Lexi: That’s creepy.

Haley: Yeah

Lexi: And I don't condone that.

Alana: No we don't like that.

Lexi: But you can be interested in crime especially because as someone who has taken courses in the forensic realm… and who likes bones, and likes that kind of thing, I think you can be interested in the human phenomenon.

Alana: As academics.

Haley: That’s where we’re at for me.

Alana: Not as fanatics.

Lexi: Yes, yes.

Haley: I was listening to like you guys speak and kind of like going back in my head like oh, I seem like such a psycho when I’m like ‘I love Charlotte’ like she is just a fascinating human.

(Alana laughing)

Lexi: Well now we’ve clarified which is good.

Haley: She assassinated someone. And assassinations aren’t swell.

Lexi: But like when you think about like what is interesting on TV, or like what is interesting in our fiction, it's because humans have a general interest. So–

Haley: I wanna write a whole paper on that. Just truly that whole concept.

Lexi: So the queen of the mob, Virginia Hill. You can learn about her at the Mob Museum, people are really really fascinated with her and her story is really interesting. And she was born on August 26, 1916 in a place called Lipscomb, Alabama. I might have said that wrong, you know general– general reminder I say things wrong sometimes. She was born on her father's horse farm. Her father was abusive and he actually beat her and her siblings when they were children and one day she got really fed up with him attacking her and her little siblings so she hit him with a hot skillet in self defense. At the age of fourteen, Virginia married a man named George and three years later the couple moved to Chicago. When they got there she dumped him because you realize the world is a lot bigger than her hometown in Alabama, and so seventeen year old Virginia wanted to start her life anew. At the time, the 1933 Chicago Century of Progress Exposition, which is a World's Fair style event, and it was conceived to bring hope in the wake of the Great Depression that was happening. So Virginia took a job dancing, like as a shimmy dancer, so she had a really unique–

Alana: What– what does shimmy dancer mean? Like a go-go dancer? Like a str– like what?

Lexi: I think you dance shimmy like you shake back and forth and you wear tassels, I believe.

Alana: Dream job.

Lexi: But someone feel free to correct me.

Haley: Yeah, I was thinking one of those 1920s cigarette girls.

Lexi: Yeah that could probably be it because this is a similar era.

Haley: Like they would have like the thing that went over them holding a plate platter like tray that they would just like walk around, dance around, and you can buy stuff from them.

Lexi: Yeah. It could possibly be akin to that. When the fair ended, Virginia became a waitress at one of Al Capone's old haunts the San Carlo Italian Village, which is a restaurant not a town. I had to Google that. Though Capone was at that time in prison, he went to prison in 1931, the community of criminals that he had built was still thriving, and it was– it was in this role as a waitress serving tables of America’s mobsters that Virginia met the man who would change her life. His name was Joe Epstein. He was an accountant and bookkeeper for Capone's crime family, and he took a liking to Virginia’s style, and that doesn't mean like her physical attractiveness… she had a certain style of a way that she talked to the mobsters, and she seemed to really have like a no-nonsense kind of ability to deal with the mobsters, which is really unique in a girl so young. So he felt he could trust her, and he took her on as a money launderer for his racketeering. She laundered the money by placing large bets on horses in Chicago's racetracks. She later moved into betting scams which is basically when she learned how from Joe to collect bets on fixed boxing matches. So the matches will be predetermined, but she would encourage people to bet the losing side. Virginia didn't just launder money. Joe taught her how to dress and act like a rich woman, and used her to cross state lines with stolen furs, jewels, and other items, because of course no one would suspect a nice, rich lady of stealing things and crossing state lines with them. The craziest part is that this all happened before Virginia even turned twenty. So by the age of twenty she was wearing really wealthy clothes, working really wealthy circles, and basically was a part of the mob. Over time, Hill became a trusted cash carrier, money launderer, and information gatherer for Joe and the rest of Capone's crew. She had many rich boyfriends and often used these relationships to benefit her mob family. In one instance she dated an oil tycoon named Major Riddle. No, you cannot make up this name, and yes, I wrote in my script to pause for insane laughter but no one is laughing. I think his name is hilarious.

Haley: I think that’s the best name ever.

Alana: We're on meat. We're on mute. Lexi that's why we're not laughing you didn't... they won’t be able to see the face that I made.

Lexi: Yeah. That's true. I forgot. Well anyway she dated this oil tycoon Mr. Riddle and she convinced him to give her money for investments that were like completely fake and she took that money back to her boy Joe. And Hill used her womanly charm, and by that I mean she seduced men. And through these methods she was able to obtain valuable information for her mob bros. Joe encourage Virginia to move out east to build connections between Chicago and New York crime syndicates. In New York, she laundered money and met many more men including a Mexican night club dancer named excuse my pronunciation, if this is wrong, Miguelito Valdez. At some point Virginia marriedValdez to help him maintain his residence in the United States. And then Virginia, at the same time as this marriage, had an on and off affair with Benjamin “Bugsy” Siegel who is a really famous leader in organized crime.The pair is well known to have real chemistry so this wasn't just considered to be a case of her seducing someone. They think that she genuinely liked him And unfortunately at the time Bugsy was married to another woman. In 1940, he was sent to jail on a murder charge. While Bugsy was in jail, Virginia tricked Valdez into signing divorce papers. And it was all very “90 day fiance” of her if you ask me. It is unclear if it was through her marriage or not but at some point Virginia had become very fluent in Spanish. She used her newfound language skills to begin trafficking drugs particularly heroin from Mexico to Chicago. In the 1940s, she attempted to start a career acting in Hollywood while transferring cash from New York to Chicago to LA. Meanwhile, Bugsy was setting up his new crime life in Las Vegas which he believed was the new up and coming resort destination for Americans and in hindsight he was probably right. He wanted Virginia to join him and she did but mainly only to spy on his activities and report back to her other mob leaders like Joe. Unfortunately, Bugsy’s biggest dreams were dashed when his resort project the “Flamingo” failed. He had drowned too much money into elabore improvements to the resort and lost cash when lucky winners struck it big in his casino. In a desperate attempt to save the business, he closed the casino and reopened the Flamingo as a hotel only, which sadly was unsuccessful, because we all know how Vegas went. Hill received orders to leave Las Vegas, so she did. 12 days later, someone shot Bugsy dead in their home. In 1950, Virginia went to a ski resort in Idaho, which I didn’t know you could ski in Idaho, but apparently you can. And she fell in love with an instructor named Hans Hauser. Again, very “90 Day Fiance” of her. Though she was still laundering money and Hauser was not a criminal, he still wanted to marry her. The couple eloped and had a son named Peter. Later that year, Virginia was subpoenaed to appear in a trial on organized crime which would be shown on National TV. She arrived like a star, dressed from head to toe in expensive clothing and jewelry. As a witness, she served her crime family well, evading details and giving vague, basic answers to in depth questions. She used creative lies to explain away all the cash she had laundered, explaining how she had bet money on horses to win her initial cash. She also insisted that most of her wealth came from gifts of suitors, or as we would probably call them today her sugar daddies. Now quick side note- this kinda gives me vibes of the musical Chicago and that song about the main character’s testimony, where she basically used her charm and virtue as a woman to get out of murder. “Well I can’t help it sir, I am just so beautiful men flock to me and give me free things.” On the stand, Virinigia denied that her male friends and lovers were racketeers. When the investigators caught her in her lies, she simply denied knowledge of the nature of their work. “But I never knew anything about their business” she would say. She denied her ability to have any financial knowledge, you know, because she was a lady, and ladies don’t do money things.

Alana: Ladies don’t money.

Lexi: Ladies never money.

Alana: Women be shopping but women don’t be money.

Haley: I love the comparison, like this whole story cuz this is so much like Charlotte. Both of these ladies are trying to be like, “Oh women do this, this is how women look, look how beautiful we are.

Lexi: That’s the vibe. That’s the vibe she was going for. The investigators were still suspicious, it did not work. Because, you know, it was about to be the sixties I mean it was the fifties but was about to be the sixties and so women were going to be liberated. As Virginia left the trial, she cursed out the press and she punched a reporter in the face. Then as she got her car she told reporters she hoped an atomic bomb would be dropped on them, which I think is a timely thing to say. This was right after World War II. That- That’s a big insult. That’s really mean. Virginia and Hans then realized that they needed to leave America so they moved to Europe. The IRS was still on Virginia's tail and she knew she could not return to the States ever again. She met up with her old boyfriends and colleagues while they were in Europe and it was clear she still received money from her life's consistent characters like Joe. In the nineteen sixties Virginia and her family settled in Austria and her mental health rapidly declined.

Viriginia had suffered with her mental health through most of her adult life, getting hooked on sleeping pills and almost dying from a sleeping pill overdose on at least one occasion. Her life was turbulent, her trauma was intense, and she survived at least three separate suicide attempts. On cold, winter’s day, March 24th, 1966, in Austria, Virginia took her own life. Pedestrians taking a walk along the water found her body, laying in the snow, along with a note stating the reason for her death, “I am tired of life”. Her husband Hans also took his own life, passing in 1974. Their son Peter, who would go on to become an American soldier and veterean of the Vietnam War, died in a car accident 20 years later. The family is buried together, in Salzburg, Austria. To this day, some crime enthusiasts believe Virginia may have been murdered, force fed pills as a method to hide a murder as suicide of someone with a history of mental illness. Though her apparent struggles with her mental health throughout her life really suggest this theory is unlikely. I think Virginia can teach us a lot, for starters I think the importance of mental health help is something her legacy can teach us. Virginia had a horrible childhood and instead of getting help she needed, she was married off and eventually she was convinced to do crime. She spent a lot of her life struggling, and it's possible some for mental health issues stem from that early trauma. I think Virginia can teach us a lot, for starters I think the importance of mental health help is something her legacy can teach us. Virginia had a horrible childhood, and instead of getting the help she needed, she was married off. She spent a lot of her life struggling, and it is possible some of her mental health issues stemmed from that early trauma. I think Virginia also teaches us that it took more than men to make the Mobs of early and mid century America function. Virginia was often called the mistress of the mob, but that’s not fair- she wasn’t a mistress of the mob, she was a member of the mob. Women, both those whose stories are recorded and those whose stories were forgotten, played central roles in organized crime. So maybe next time you think about famous figures like Al Capone, think of the women like Virginia Hill who supported the crimes too. And that’s why we cover the good, the bad, and the ugly of women’s history, because there are so many stories that go untold.

Alana: That was so beautiful.

Haley: That was mind blowing.

Lexi: Thank you! I am gonna leave in you guys calling it beautiful too!

Alana: That was incredible.

Lexi: I really thought about that really hard.

Alana: Holy shit!

Haley: I truly love that like all our stories had a moral like that the ending for Alana was also just like you have to face that you're a killer that's a no no and like Lexi here with mental health and then me being like it's not all black and white you’re both bad people!

Alana: Nuance and context is like my mantra these days.

Lexi: That’s academics.

Haley: Yes.

Alana: Nuance and context as academics.

Lexi As people who studied at a university. Oh my.

Alana: I have a bachelor's degree.

Lexi: Mhmm. Is this podcast just proof to your parents that you got a bachelor's degree?

Alana: No, they paid for it.

Lexi: They know.

Alana: They know.

Lexi: They suffered.

(Alana laughing)

Lexi: You can find this podcast on Twitter and Instagram at LadyHistoryPod. Our show notes and a transcript of this episode will be on lady history pod dot tumblr dot com. If you like the show, leave us a review or tell your friends, and if you don’t like the show, keep it to yourself.

Alana: Our logo is by Alexia Ibarra you can find her on Instagram and Twitter at LexiBDraws. Our theme music is by me, Garageband, and Amelia Earhart. Lexi is doing the editing. You will not see us, and we will not see you, but you will hear us, next time on Lady History.

[OUTRO MUSIC]

Haley: Next week on Lady History: we're going to be in the kitchen cooking up some great stories about famous women chefs and cooks alike.

Alana: WHERE WE BELONG.

Lexi: In the kitchen.

Alana: /s.

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