#Jonsa foreshadowing

[alaynasansa]

Sansa crushing hard on two dark-haired boys joining institutions demanding celibacy for the rest of their lives

[jonsaforever]

Does someone know a Jonsa fanfic where Sansa arrives in Castle Black and Jon is still in his wolf-coma? Ghost bonding with Sansa while Jon is warging on him…?

Please let me know 😇 I would appreciate it a lot

[northern-embrace]

Also pointing out Jon’s words: “Ned Stark’s daughter shall speak for them.” (the North)

Well, well, well… must be intrusive thoughts surfacing that they’re:

cousins, cousins, cousins hmmm.

Both are still alive, geographically close to each other, our Queen riding to—

absolute clowns: *threatening jon snow* sansa and arya: *kill bill sirens* 

[atopvisenyashill]

"you know it's actually really problematic to ship jonsa because you're completely ignoring that jon's type is-"

[alaynestcnes]

people can look down on shippers all they like but i’m having a blast in this bitch. rereading acok is just so much more fun when you’re just stumbling upon jonsa crumbs left and right like i just read “Sansa turned towards the sept. Two stableboys followed, and one of the guards whose watch was ended. Others fell in behind them.” and i’m literally giggling kicking my feet twirling my hair like I just read a makeout scene

[sherlokiness]

2013 amazes me. It's so surprising there would be a post explaining how Jon and Sansa would end up together from more than a decade ago. Is Mladen one of the og jonsas perhaps?

Hi, anon! Thanks for the ask.

Reference: This post.

It really is amazing to find that post about Jon and Sansa. I'm pretty sure that's the only one(besides blindestspot also 2013) which verbosely listed rational reasons for why Jon and Sansa could be a couple. You'd be hardpressed to find one bc all the other clues of Jon ending up with a sister are all attributed to jonrya or adjacent - aegony bc of the incest. When the original outline came out in 2017, there were talks about jonrya clues being the leftover from the og timeline like Jaime being King but scrapped. I believe the author has actually switched Jon's endgame to Sansa from Arya from the first book bc of that one line "No, that's Sansa." There are also others like Sam/Sansa being a bastard's lady love and the use of radiant.

I don't think Mladen is a jonsa the way a "shipper" is. They've merely suggested a possibility for the reason George deliberately made Jon and Sansa distant but still fond of each other. Nevertheless, it's still a bit rebellious for Mladen to suggest jonsa endgame when the most prevalent ship during those years was Sansan. It was treated as a "done deal" ship like JaimeXBrienne was. Sansa hate was also rampant so saying she's gonna end up with the "hero" in the book is practically blasphemy.

[empireofembers]

ITS BEEN YEARS AND THIS CANNOT BE A COINCIDENCE

When antis say the Ashford theory doesn't work because of Robert Arryn 🤦 no one said it has to be exactly the same lmao. And most importantly its because Sansa herself does not acknowledge/accept the betrothal like she does with Joffrey, Willas, Tyrion and Harry.

Oh, you silly jonsa.

Just because it's a celebration of Lord Ashford's daughter's thirteenth name day, doesn't mean that's an allusion to Sansa, okay?

And just because the name Lyonel Baratheon means Lion Baratheon in Latin, doesn't imply any connection to Joffrey, okay?

And just because Willas Tyrell was injured in a tournament, because his father hoped he would become the next Leo Longthorn, doesn't mean there's any association between the two, okay?

And just because the maiden's brothers were defeated by Lion Baratheon and Ty... bolt Lannister, doesn't mean there's any similarities to Sansa's storyline, okay?

And just because Harrold Hardyng is destined to meet the exact same fate as the only other Hardyng in the story, Humfrey Hardyng, doesn't mean that can't be a coincidence, okay?

And just because Valarr Targaryen is described as a dark-haired, slim prince, and referred to as the "black prince with the white guardian," doesn't suggest any link to Ghost and Jon, okay?

What about the fact that Lord Ashford's daughter is never noted as having red hair? Why is she never shown sewing? How come she doesn't have a wolf? Why is her name not Tansa?

Seems to me like this theory has a ton of inconsistencies.

[agentrouka-blog]

omfg you have every right to be angry over that anon. What a condescending, arrogant ask. There's an extra level of insult, because people aren't just trying to dispute your opinion, they're trying to waste your time, energy, and thinking too. It's not an honest and equal debate, it's just pure entitlement.

Something for your perusal: I've been reading the ASOIAF books again and was curious when I came upon Catelyn's passage up the Eyrie in AGOTA, where she laments that Mya Stone won't be able to marry the boy she's in love with because she's a bastard. Then Catelyn muses that Mya reminds her of Sansa. I thought this was interesting because of how the information is introduced, and then the Mya-Sansa parallels. Sansa becomes a bastard when Jon is a secret prince sort of business. I haven't seen anybody mention this and thought it was curious.

Thank you! <3

And there's actually a lot of stuff in that Mya Stone moment.

For one, it happens at a time when we already know that Sansa's own dreams are as hopeless as Mya's, no matter that Sansa is trueborn, because Cat and Ned both agreed to marry her to House Lannister and at the Trident Joffrey took off his mask and nothing is being done about it regarding Sansa.

Then we have the parallel to Littlefinger, whose crush (trueborn but low status) was always as hopeless as Mya's.

Then we have the fact that Cat foregoes an obvious comparison (tomboyish Arya) by focusing on not one but two other people in regard to Mya. First the unpleasant association with Jon Snow, followed by a softening when she recognizes the resemblance to Sansa.

"Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady," the girl said. It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply. [...] "Mychel's my love," Mya explained. "Mychel Redfort. He's squire to Ser Lyn Corbray. We're to wed as soon as he becomes a knight, next year or the year after." She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams. Catelyn smiled, but the smile was tinged with sadness. The Redforts were an old name in the Vale, she knew, with the blood of the First Men in their veins. His love she might be, but no Redfort would ever wed a bastard. His family would arrange a more suitable match for him, to a Corbray or a Waynwood or a Royce, or perhaps a daughter of some greater house outside the Vale. If Mychel Redfort laid with this girl at all, it would be on the wrong side of the sheet. (AGOT, Catelyn VI)

Mya makes her feel guilty and angry when thinking of Jon Snow, but bittersweet when contemplating her similarity to Sansa and the impossibility of her dreams. It's easier to handle Mya's status when connecting her to Sansa, someone Cat knows how to love, rather than Jon, whose existence strips all romance from the veneer of the brutal society and the reality of patriarchy for Catelyn herself. She doesn't hate bastards, she even has sympathy for them. She only hates what Jon represents for herself.

Sansa ends up modeling her own bastard figure after Jon Snow (fourteen and bastard brave), and from what we have seen of Jon's own struggles with bastardy, his own unfullfilled dreams, it becomes easy to directly compare Sansa and Jon as similar souls, with similar hopes and disappointments, with their shared longing for something unattainable by the rules of their society.

Within the one mirroring scene coming down the mountain in AFFC, Sansa contemplates Mya Stone's lost virtue (after Cat's predictions have come to pass) and potential future husband of fitting status who would love her anyway, and she will also be reminded of Jon Snow. "I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be."

The chapter ends with a proposed miracle transformation. Littlefinger paints the picture of a reveal of true identity: The bastard sheds their mask and is recognized for their true self. Something that can only happen to a false bastard. Like Sansa.

Who is so similar to Jon. With his impossible dreams.

[eruherdiriel]

My favorite chapter sequence in A Storm of Swords so far on this reread: Bran III -> Jon V.

They're both at Queenscrown.

Bran explains the Gift and why it's called that. There are two gifts to the Night's Watch: Brandon's Gift and the New Gift (Queen Alysanne's gift).

Bran wargs into Summer.

Jon thinks about Ned's plan to settle the Gift.

"... a dream for spring ..."

Jon thinks about how he might have been chosen to hold a tower in Ned's name, if winter had come and gone faster.

Ygritte: "I'm half a fish, I'll have you know." 🤭

Jon explains why it's called Queenscrown.

Ygritte asks if a queen lived there, and Jon says: "A queen stayed there for a night." 🤭

That queen was Alysanne, married to her brother Jaehaerys.

"I see a crow and a crow wife."

Summer, who Bran was warging into when we left his POV, saves Jon by attacking the wildlings when Jon can't kill the old man.

[captainscifi22]

I think what is important is that many of the plot points he described in that outline are more or less going to take place but the characters involved in those have changed . Tyrion was meant to capture Winterfell and burn it but in the books it's Theon and later Ramsay who carried out the deed. Bran was suppose to go North of the Wall with Cat but he ends up going there with the Reed siblings. Arya flees to the Wall from Lannister soldiers and in the books you have Lannister regime placing a bounty on Sansa. Even original outline Sansa very much clearly mirrors to that of Elia and Tywin is more or less the Jaime of the original outline.

Another thing that really interested me was how GRRM decribed that Arya would find out to her horror that she had fallen in love with Jon , the psychology here is how she buries her thoughts deep inside and lies to herself before the world comes crashing down to horror and this kind of self denial is really evident in Sansa's character. The fact that she is already married to one of the trios in the love triangle looks now quite promising.

Hello!

Sorry for the very late reply — trying to do a little tidy up of my inbox. I think your ask is in response to this one, also from you, about the original outline where I go into some detail about GRRM's history of writing romantic red-heads?

Without question, lots of things in the series are wildly different to what was laid out in that publishers outline. But perhaps what it does reveal more than anything is the certain themes he was interested in exploring, and which have been carried over into asoiaf as we know it. So, that is why you get a switching/altering of characters, but as you detailed, certain events or themes still occuring.

But moving on to the second part of your message...

Arya will be more forgiving... until she realises, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book. – GRRM, circa 1993

I completely agree with you that this theme of realisation and supression is very present in Sansa's arc, on a psychological level. We see realisation through her disillusionment arc, which parallels your classic bildungsroman structure, and then suppression in how she deals with her trauma, e.g. 'the Unkiss,' but also in her dynamic with gentle Petyr vs. cunning Littlefinger, amongst other things. Add to that Sansa's very romantic nature and the romance associations in her arc, her involvement with Tyrion, the lack of an established dynamic between her and Jon... and it's got all the right ingredients to explore what was first briefly alluded to in this outline.

So, like I said, even though the characters have changed, been switched, and in Sansa's case been promoted to more narrative relevancy, GRRM's interest in the incest motif (see the Lannisters and Targaryens) remains very present. It makes sense to me, from the ongoing Byron investigation I've been doing, that he is also very interested in a dynamic that strongly emulates the relationships found in Lord Byron's work (The Bride of Abydos + Manfred), and this paragraph above very much testifies to that interest.

At some point I plan to do a more general look at GRRM's interest in Romanticism and his Romantic sensibilities because it really is very interesting to me... and maybe not discussed all that much?

GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers... which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don't know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there's always been something in a twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has. [source]

Thanks for the message! x

[jackoshadows]

How does one read the story in the books and then write stuff like this?

Literally there are Northerners in the books mocking Rhaegar Frey for his name and these people think him having a son named Jonos is foreshadowing? In the text Wyman Manderly calls Rhaegar Frey a WORM and no dragon -

"That smirking worm who wears a dragon's name" - Davos, ADwD.

Manderly is saying that Rhaegar Frey is not worthy of the name and mocking the Frey for having a dragon's name. So, no. Jonos is not a hint for Jon Snow. Jonos is just another name like his wife's name is Jeyne or his other children being named Robert and Walda. Just like Jeyne, Robert and Walda are not hinting at other characters it's the same for Jonos.

In fact contrary to what Jonsa shippers are positing here, in the story the characters are saying that it's not just the name, but character and personality also matters.

This is why context and story is always important instead of picking and choosing random words, text, sentence structures and phrases the author loves to use to create a narrative not supported by the text. Using the off book Jonnel/Sansa stuff for Jonsa is just as ludicrous as using Rhaegar's Frey son being Jonos as some kind of sign for R+L=J. When, in the story, the character of Rhaegar Frey is specifically being dragged for not being worthy of a dragon's name.

[alaynasansa]

Jon Snow : Sansa looked radiant

Harry Potter : She dived under the table to retrieve the bowl and emerged with her face glowing like the setting sun

Same vibes

[catofoldstones]

the ashford theory with j0n or aegon just means it signifies sansa's suitors and it ties into political marriage with what we see with the north heir crisis could have a j0nsa marriage betrothal but then again like the other suitors it might not even be endgame just something that happens as a plot point, its the fans resisting the idea of it so much but not with other characters ,when j0nsa could make perfect sense for the north heir crisis plot makes me laugh a bit and now the same fans say his targ heritage doesnt matter but they were so keen on it with others d@ny's hypothetical marriage to him , his targ/lyann@ heritage reveal is important to the plot maybe not to his personal motives (unless he goes nuts and demands the north by right as robb's heir) but its going to affect the plot whether they like it or not, j0nsa hypothetical match being so furiously debated feels like sore losing

You’re so correct, anon. It’s mostly because Sansa isn’t a fan favourite, and even with most people who do like her, they don’t want her to end up with anyone because of her general history with men (which is sort of understandable). But suddenly saying that Jon’s Targaryen heritage doesn’t matter just to argue against a ship is buck wild. I genuinely want to study the people who said this like rats in a lab.

[lesbian-sansa]

this is very much applicable to j*nsa fans who think they can warp the narrative and create stuff from thin air drawing bogus theories and stealing from other characters and dynamics when they should have just admitted to themselves that they simply want to f jon and it’s not that deep

media literacy would automatically go up 100% if people knew how to consume stories without self-inserting themselves into the characters' shoes. "if i were him..." you're NOT. you may relate to his story, his past, his traits, his quirks, his identity but the moment you start treating the story accepting what you feel/think as what the character feels/thinks, you're misunderstanding the story.

[sanswstrk]

TO SANSA/JON FANDOM!

Hey everyone! I’m not sure how many of you remember this user, but lostlittlesatellites or batterydeaddotdot was a well-known Jonsa meta-writer in our fandom. Sadly, they deactivated, and as far as I know, we don’t really know why. A big chunk of their amazing work seems to have been lost, which was so sad for so many of us.

But here’s the good news: I recently discovered that some of their metas were saved on the "Way Back Machine" site! So, I put together a list of some of their pieces to share with all of you. My aim is to help preserve their contributions, spread the love within our fandom, and celebrate the incredible mind that has helped to shaped our fandom.

Quick disclaimer: I haven’t read every single meta, so I don’t necessarily agree with everything that’s written. My main goal is just to share this with you all. And I skiped GOT-related metas for this list. Enjoy diving into lostlittlesatellites/batterydeaddotdot’s work!

Some of their writings is already saved through some of those accounts: @/jonsameta & @/bookjonsa & @/esther-dot. Y’all can check! Here are the others:

BOOKS:

Sansa Stark: The Princess in the Tower

RLJ & Jonsa Payoff

Dragons, Snow and Armchairs

Can there be ONE ideal ruler?

Trojan War Literature influence on GRRM

The Red Comet: A Closer Look

Grey Dawn: Hour of the Wolf + Nightingale

To go forward you must look back: Dany’s tragic fall

Jon Snow as an Anti Hero

Val: A Subversion of BATB in Jon’s arc? + “something off about Val”

The Resurrection Problem

The Cost of Weaponizing Dragons For a Cause: Doran + Jon

There is Power in Living Wood: Bran’s role in the War

Valar Morghulis: Could Arya kill Dany?: Part 1 & Part 2

Stark Girls’ connections: To go forward you must go back

Fathers and Daughters

Sansa Stark: A Winter Rose?

Sansa Stark: A Girl in Glass

Sansa’s Fairytale and Myth allusions

The Blindspot of FPTP thread: Oversexualisation and overlooking age

Ask: Does “begging for a stranger’s kiss” foreshadow Sansa/Hound?

Deconstruction of BATB figures: He’s even uglier than the Hound

The Unkiss: The War Spilling Inside

Sansa’s repression of Jeyne

Alysanne: Paralleling Sansa + Contrasting Dany foreshadowing

A Song to Dodge A Kiss With a Blade (Part 1): Sansa/Hound and Jon/Ygritte ACOK comparisons

The Innocuous Nature of Jon/Sansa Foreshadowing

Snow: Lover’s Kisses

A Son by Marriage

1. Like a Lover; 2. Like a Kiss; 3. Kissed by Fire; 4. Burning Light and Dark Woods; 5. Intruders in Winterfell; 6. The Heart of Winterfell; 7. Fire: Hearth vs. Weapons

Dance of Dragons + Pact of Ice and Fire

Jonquils and Blue Roses

Horses and Flowers

Some Willowy Creature Who Sits Up in a Tower

A Union of the Old Gods and the New: Importance of understanding the Seven

Ask: Thoughts on Bridge4’s Video “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell”

Theories:

Bran as the Valonqar

History is a Wheel: Jon’s Rebellion

Jon’s Resurrection Repercussions

Dead Man with the Head of a Wolf: A Re-look

The Heart Tree of Winterfell: Tolkien influence

Complicating the Fantasy Battle: War Factions in the War for Dawn

Trail of Scrolls

Lady and the Ghost: Part 1; Part 2; Part 3

Shadowbinders, Death and Sacrifice

Sansa, the Vale and Mountain Clans: Part 1; Part 2; Part 3; Part 4

Seasons of My Love

Jon’s Survival: Beginning of Subverting Westerosi Classism

Child of Flame and Shadow: Not a living child but a shadow child?

Shadowbinders, Death and Sacrifice: Dany with Mirri and Melisandre

A Potential Wildcard Advisor: Bronze Yohn Royce and the Importance of the Vale

Why Ghost is unlikely to like Dany: Melisandre and Val in ADWD

Others:

Jonsa: Tolkien influences

Jonsa: A Good Endgame

Jonsa is happening because it's how GRRM's mind works

Jonsa’s Hints: On how antis ignore Jonsa foreshadowing

POV’S: Heros or not

House of the Undying and Quaithe for Dany & Mythology

Dany criticism 

Other links: about asoiaf; asoiaf metas; asoiaf theories + part 2

Anyone who has some of their writing saved can feel free to share! I would be thankful.

[cellsshapedlikestars]

ok so I don't get involved in fandom drama, but I saw a post that got me thinking about one of my favorite jonsa moments in the books that I feel like is a bit overlooked?

I'm putting it under a cut because my thoughts are scattered and possibly confusing but whatever lol

so I found the post on my for you tab (why do i even go in there?) and it was about how Sansa is super classist for this part: Sansa sighed as she stitched. "Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard."

(Don't worry, the poster did point out that all the Starks are classist to some degree, but Sansa is the most, and how Arya just thinks of him as her brother. gotta love people who try to bury their Sansa hate lol. like there was no other point to the post. it didn't even make me mad cause it was just kind of a dumb, very surface level take that was clearly just meant to point out how Sansa's such a meanie)

now, if you follow me, you probably know that I'm not someone who reads a ton of metas or even believes jonsa will be canon, but if it is, I think this is such an underrated moment.

Because Sansa sees him in a way none of her other siblings do, because she doesn't think of him as her true brother.

Arya thinks of Jon as her brother. For her, she and Jon are the same, but they aren't, and she doesn't see that - because she's 9 years old and for her, Jon is an outsider like her, and that relationship is such a safe space for her. (ugh I actually love the Jon & Arya relationship I really don't get to write it enough because I do tend to focus more on Sansa's relationship with Arya). Anyway, Arya doesn't really understand the implications of Jon being a bastard. Like, that isn't going to change for him, except in a very extreme circumstance. But she will always be trueborn. (we're taking gender out of the equation here, which is its own beast that has been talked about a ton so I won't go into it)

Arya is blinded by her love and adoration of Jon. Robb doesn't see it at all because why would he even consider it? (and even if he did, we don't see it cause there's no Robb POV). Bran and Rickon are probably too young to think about. But Sansa sees Jon for who he is, and what she says is a fact. Is it a nice thing to say? Maybe not, but it is 100% true, and she's clearly emotionally intelligent enough to see his circumstances and understand how that effects his actions.

I think that's why I found the post so funny, cause I'm like - and? Jon IS a jealous bastard. He spends the entire Winterfell feast being soooooo salty about Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen and even Robb (radiant Sansa gets a pass tho) even though there's literally no other reason for it. He spends the rest of the books trying so hard to suppress how much he wants to be Lord of Winterfell. He loves Robb, but he's jealous of Robb, and he struggles a lot with that and feels guilty for wanting what Robb has.

Anyway, this is one of my fav jonsa foreshadowings (if it ever becomes canon) because to me, it just means that Sansa can see through his bullshit better than a lot of other people. And I like the idea of that, that she sees him.

meanwhile Jon's just over there like "yeah yeah yeah, Sansa's radiant, but have you seen how insipid Myrcella is??"