#Jonsa foreshadowing

[alaynasansa]

Sansa crushing hard on two dark-haired boys joining institutions demanding celibacy for the rest of their lives

[jonsaforever]

Does someone know a Jonsa fanfic where Sansa arrives in Castle Black and Jon is still in his wolf-coma? Ghost bonding with Sansa while Jon is warging on him…?

Please let me know 😇 I would appreciate it a lot

[northern-embrace]

Also pointing out Jon’s words: “Ned Stark’s daughter shall speak for them.” (the North)

Well, well, well… must be intrusive thoughts surfacing that they’re:

cousins, cousins, cousins hmmm.

Both are still alive, geographically close to each other, our Queen riding to—

absolute clowns: *threatening jon snow* sansa and arya: *kill bill sirens* 

[alaynestcnes]

people can look down on shippers all they like but i’m having a blast in this bitch. rereading acok is just so much more fun when you’re just stumbling upon jonsa crumbs left and right like i just read “Sansa turned towards the sept. Two stableboys followed, and one of the guards whose watch was ended. Others fell in behind them.” and i’m literally giggling kicking my feet twirling my hair like I just read a makeout scene

[agentrouka-blog]

omfg you have every right to be angry over that anon. What a condescending, arrogant ask. There's an extra level of insult, because people aren't just trying to dispute your opinion, they're trying to waste your time, energy, and thinking too. It's not an honest and equal debate, it's just pure entitlement.

Something for your perusal: I've been reading the ASOIAF books again and was curious when I came upon Catelyn's passage up the Eyrie in AGOTA, where she laments that Mya Stone won't be able to marry the boy she's in love with because she's a bastard. Then Catelyn muses that Mya reminds her of Sansa. I thought this was interesting because of how the information is introduced, and then the Mya-Sansa parallels. Sansa becomes a bastard when Jon is a secret prince sort of business. I haven't seen anybody mention this and thought it was curious.

Thank you! <3

And there's actually a lot of stuff in that Mya Stone moment.

For one, it happens at a time when we already know that Sansa's own dreams are as hopeless as Mya's, no matter that Sansa is trueborn, because Cat and Ned both agreed to marry her to House Lannister and at the Trident Joffrey took off his mask and nothing is being done about it regarding Sansa.

Then we have the parallel to Littlefinger, whose crush (trueborn but low status) was always as hopeless as Mya's.

Then we have the fact that Cat foregoes an obvious comparison (tomboyish Arya) by focusing on not one but two other people in regard to Mya. First the unpleasant association with Jon Snow, followed by a softening when she recognizes the resemblance to Sansa.

"Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady," the girl said. It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply. [...] "Mychel's my love," Mya explained. "Mychel Redfort. He's squire to Ser Lyn Corbray. We're to wed as soon as he becomes a knight, next year or the year after." She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams. Catelyn smiled, but the smile was tinged with sadness. The Redforts were an old name in the Vale, she knew, with the blood of the First Men in their veins. His love she might be, but no Redfort would ever wed a bastard. His family would arrange a more suitable match for him, to a Corbray or a Waynwood or a Royce, or perhaps a daughter of some greater house outside the Vale. If Mychel Redfort laid with this girl at all, it would be on the wrong side of the sheet. (AGOT, Catelyn VI)

Mya makes her feel guilty and angry when thinking of Jon Snow, but bittersweet when contemplating her similarity to Sansa and the impossibility of her dreams. It's easier to handle Mya's status when connecting her to Sansa, someone Cat knows how to love, rather than Jon, whose existence strips all romance from the veneer of the brutal society and the reality of patriarchy for Catelyn herself. She doesn't hate bastards, she even has sympathy for them. She only hates what Jon represents for herself.

Sansa ends up modeling her own bastard figure after Jon Snow (fourteen and bastard brave), and from what we have seen of Jon's own struggles with bastardy, his own unfullfilled dreams, it becomes easy to directly compare Sansa and Jon as similar souls, with similar hopes and disappointments, with their shared longing for something unattainable by the rules of their society.

Within the one mirroring scene coming down the mountain in AFFC, Sansa contemplates Mya Stone's lost virtue (after Cat's predictions have come to pass) and potential future husband of fitting status who would love her anyway, and she will also be reminded of Jon Snow. "I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be."

The chapter ends with a proposed miracle transformation. Littlefinger paints the picture of a reveal of true identity: The bastard sheds their mask and is recognized for their true self. Something that can only happen to a false bastard. Like Sansa.

Who is so similar to Jon. With his impossible dreams.

[eruherdiriel]

My favorite chapter sequence in A Storm of Swords so far on this reread: Bran III -> Jon V.

They're both at Queenscrown.

Bran explains the Gift and why it's called that. There are two gifts to the Night's Watch: Brandon's Gift and the New Gift (Queen Alysanne's gift).

Bran wargs into Summer.

Jon thinks about Ned's plan to settle the Gift.

"... a dream for spring ..."

Jon thinks about how he might have been chosen to hold a tower in Ned's name, if winter had come and gone faster.

Ygritte: "I'm half a fish, I'll have you know." 🤭

Jon explains why it's called Queenscrown.

Ygritte asks if a queen lived there, and Jon says: "A queen stayed there for a night." 🤭

That queen was Alysanne, married to her brother Jaehaerys.

"I see a crow and a crow wife."

Summer, who Bran was warging into when we left his POV, saves Jon by attacking the wildlings when Jon can't kill the old man.

[empireofembers]

ITS BEEN YEARS AND THIS CANNOT BE A COINCIDENCE

When antis say the Ashford theory doesn't work because of Robert Arryn 🤦 no one said it has to be exactly the same lmao. And most importantly its because Sansa herself does not acknowledge/accept the betrothal like she does with Joffrey, Willas, Tyrion and Harry.

Oh, you silly jonsa.

Just because it's a celebration of Lord Ashford's daughter's thirteenth name day, doesn't mean that's an allusion to Sansa, okay?

And just because the name Lyonel Baratheon means Lion Baratheon in Latin, doesn't imply any connection to Joffrey, okay?

And just because Willas Tyrell was injured in a tournament, because his father hoped he would become the next Leo Longthorn, doesn't mean there's any association between the two, okay?

And just because the maiden's brothers were defeated by Lion Baratheon and Ty... bolt Lannister, doesn't mean there's any similarities to Sansa's storyline, okay?

And just because Harrold Hardyng is destined to meet the exact same fate as the only other Hardyng in the story, Humfrey Hardyng, doesn't mean that can't be a coincidence, okay?

And just because Valarr Targaryen is described as a dark-haired, slim prince, and referred to as the "black prince with the white guardian," doesn't suggest any link to Ghost and Jon, okay?

What about the fact that Lord Ashford's daughter is never noted as having red hair? Why is she never shown sewing? How come she doesn't have a wolf? Why is her name not Tansa?

Seems to me like this theory has a ton of inconsistencies.

[jackoshadows]

How does one read the story in the books and then write stuff like this?

Literally there are Northerners in the books mocking Rhaegar Frey for his name and these people think him having a son named Jonos is foreshadowing? In the text Wyman Manderly calls Rhaegar Frey a WORM and no dragon -

"That smirking worm who wears a dragon's name" - Davos, ADwD.

Manderly is saying that Rhaegar Frey is not worthy of the name and mocking the Frey for having a dragon's name. So, no. Jonos is not a hint for Jon Snow. Jonos is just another name like his wife's name is Jeyne or his other children being named Robert and Walda. Just like Jeyne, Robert and Walda are not hinting at other characters it's the same for Jonos.

In fact contrary to what Jonsa shippers are positing here, in the story the characters are saying that it's not just the name, but character and personality also matters.

This is why context and story is always important instead of picking and choosing random words, text, sentence structures and phrases the author loves to use to create a narrative not supported by the text. Using the off book Jonnel/Sansa stuff for Jonsa is just as ludicrous as using Rhaegar's Frey son being Jonos as some kind of sign for R+L=J. When, in the story, the character of Rhaegar Frey is specifically being dragged for not being worthy of a dragon's name.

[alaynasansa]

Jon Snow : Sansa looked radiant

Harry Potter : She dived under the table to retrieve the bowl and emerged with her face glowing like the setting sun

Same vibes

[starwarsprincess1986]

Jonsa foreshadowing as early as Arya’s first point of view chapter in AGOT

Here are the excerpts from that chapter:

“What are you talking about?” Arya asked suddenly.

“We were talking about the prince,” Sansa said, her voice soft as a kiss.

“He’s going to marry her,” little Beth said dreamily, hugging herself. “Then Sansa will be queen of all the realm.”

Septa Mordane raised her eyes. She had a bony face, sharp eyes, and a thin lipless mouth made for frowning. It was frowning now. “What are you talking about, children?”

“Our half brother,” Sansa corrected, soft and precise. She smiled for the septa.

-Arya I, AGOT

Traitor’s Seed: Revelations in Sansa IV and Jon VII of A Game of Thrones

I’ve never seen this particular foreshadowing/paralleling discussed before. Of course, that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been written about. If you know of other posts that talk about these two chapters link me! Would love to read other thoughts. 

Here it goes…

Over the past few months, I’ve been re-reading very slowly A Game of Thrones. My first thought is that yes the book does hold up on re-read. There are beautiful moments that the book reveals on the second read. There are secrets and foreshadowing as well. And then there are the surprises. One of those surprises was Sansa IV and Jon VII. One of the strongest instances of Jonsa foreshadowing, I’ve seen so early in the books. The similarities are mindblowing. 

Keep reading

[sherlokiness]

The guy she met The guy she made

[transdimensional-void]

alyn velaryon & jon snow anti-parallels

alyn velaryon

half-valyrian bastard with silver hair and purple eyes

father passed him off as his son's bastard

fought for rhaenyra's claim to the iron throne in the dance of the dragons

permanently scarred when he failed to ride a dragon

legitimized, placing him ahead of baela, rhaena, daemion, daeron, and the silent five in the succession of driftmark

older brother was initially the heir but killed in war

became lord of the tides

unsuccessful assassination attempt (one of the attackers joined the night's watch as punishment)

married one of the women (is she his cousin? his niece? who knows and who cares) whose claim he superseded, giving her his family name, when she ran to him for shelter, fleeing an unwanted marriage

unsanctioned marriage led to baela and him being seen as unfit heirs to her brother's throne

fathered bastards while married

house velaryon continued through his and baela's son

jon snow

half-valyrian bastard with brown hair and dark gray eyes

uncle passed him off as his own bastard

might be caught up in the dance of the dragons 2.0 (in the show, refused to press his claim to the iron throne)

permanently scarred by a skin-changed eagle (successfully rode a dragon in the show)

(allegedly) legitimized by robb/offered legitimization by stannis, potentially placing him ahead of sansa, arya, bran, and rickon (because they were presumed dead) in the succession of winterfell

older brother cousin was initially the heir but killed in war

refused to become lord of winterfell

successful assassination attempt by night's watchmen

[missing scene] one of the women (is she his cousin? is she his sister? uh oh, good thing we'll find out for sure) whose claim he refused to supersede, [missing scene] her family name, when she [ran to him for shelter, fleeing an unwanted marriage as foretold by the girl in grey prophecy?]

[missing scene]

swore to never father bastards

[missing scene]

hm, i dunno. i'll let y'all fill in the missing scenes for yourselves.

[catofoldstones]

the ashford theory with j0n or aegon just means it signifies sansa's suitors and it ties into political marriage with what we see with the north heir crisis could have a j0nsa marriage betrothal but then again like the other suitors it might not even be endgame just something that happens as a plot point, its the fans resisting the idea of it so much but not with other characters ,when j0nsa could make perfect sense for the north heir crisis plot makes me laugh a bit and now the same fans say his targ heritage doesnt matter but they were so keen on it with others d@ny's hypothetical marriage to him , his targ/lyann@ heritage reveal is important to the plot maybe not to his personal motives (unless he goes nuts and demands the north by right as robb's heir) but its going to affect the plot whether they like it or not, j0nsa hypothetical match being so furiously debated feels like sore losing

You’re so correct, anon. It’s mostly because Sansa isn’t a fan favourite, and even with most people who do like her, they don’t want her to end up with anyone because of her general history with men (which is sort of understandable). But suddenly saying that Jon’s Targaryen heritage doesn’t matter just to argue against a ship is buck wild. I genuinely want to study the people who said this like rats in a lab.

[captainscifi22]

I think what is important is that many of the plot points he described in that outline are more or less going to take place but the characters involved in those have changed . Tyrion was meant to capture Winterfell and burn it but in the books it's Theon and later Ramsay who carried out the deed. Bran was suppose to go North of the Wall with Cat but he ends up going there with the Reed siblings. Arya flees to the Wall from Lannister soldiers and in the books you have Lannister regime placing a bounty on Sansa. Even original outline Sansa very much clearly mirrors to that of Elia and Tywin is more or less the Jaime of the original outline.

Another thing that really interested me was how GRRM decribed that Arya would find out to her horror that she had fallen in love with Jon , the psychology here is how she buries her thoughts deep inside and lies to herself before the world comes crashing down to horror and this kind of self denial is really evident in Sansa's character. The fact that she is already married to one of the trios in the love triangle looks now quite promising.

Hello!

Sorry for the very late reply — trying to do a little tidy up of my inbox. I think your ask is in response to this one, also from you, about the original outline where I go into some detail about GRRM's history of writing romantic red-heads?

Without question, lots of things in the series are wildly different to what was laid out in that publishers outline. But perhaps what it does reveal more than anything is the certain themes he was interested in exploring, and which have been carried over into asoiaf as we know it. So, that is why you get a switching/altering of characters, but as you detailed, certain events or themes still occuring.

But moving on to the second part of your message...

Arya will be more forgiving... until she realises, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book. – GRRM, circa 1993

I completely agree with you that this theme of realisation and supression is very present in Sansa's arc, on a psychological level. We see realisation through her disillusionment arc, which parallels your classic bildungsroman structure, and then suppression in how she deals with her trauma, e.g. 'the Unkiss,' but also in her dynamic with gentle Petyr vs. cunning Littlefinger, amongst other things. Add to that Sansa's very romantic nature and the romance associations in her arc, her involvement with Tyrion, the lack of an established dynamic between her and Jon... and it's got all the right ingredients to explore what was first briefly alluded to in this outline.

So, like I said, even though the characters have changed, been switched, and in Sansa's case been promoted to more narrative relevancy, GRRM's interest in the incest motif (see the Lannisters and Targaryens) remains very present. It makes sense to me, from the ongoing Byron investigation I've been doing, that he is also very interested in a dynamic that strongly emulates the relationships found in Lord Byron's work (The Bride of Abydos + Manfred), and this paragraph above very much testifies to that interest.

At some point I plan to do a more general look at GRRM's interest in Romanticism and his Romantic sensibilities because it really is very interesting to me... and maybe not discussed all that much?

GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers... which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don't know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there's always been something in a twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has. [source]

Thanks for the message! x

[willowycreature]

ok rereading asos on the train and this was very important to me

[alaynestcnes]

Half of the evidence for jonsa is a reach, though...I do think they will reunite like in the show but to say that it will be romantic because Jon chopped of Jano Slynt's head /for Sansa/ (when he never even thinks of her) is a big leap. If anything, it's intended to show Jon embracing his Stark roots - which would mean he will definetly not want to be romantic with his sister.

if it was just janos slynt’s beheading linking jon and sansa then i would agree with you but the thing is that it’s not just that moment…there are so many combined moments linking them that i truly can’t interpret it any other way than romantic foreshadowing.

like there’s the ashford tourney foreshadowing sansa’s final betrothal to a targ. and jon and sansa having matching dreams about rebuilding winterfell and naming their children after their family (with the members not mentioned in sansa’s dream being mentioned in jon’s, so their dream is only ‘complete’ when placed together). and jon and sansa’s first loves resembling each other. and then there’s jonnel/sansa. and then there’s how the books are structured so jon and sansa’s chapters always follow each other whenever there is an emphasis on marriage/romance/children. and these are just off the top of my head, there are many more links that occur throughout the text.

i could dismiss janos slynt as just a reference to jon’s stark identity or a future familial relationship between jon and sansa. i could dismiss the ashford tourney theory as foreshadowing f/ageon not jon. i would have dismissed it if these were the singular, isolated instances that connect them. but when things begin to stack up and become a pattern rather than coincidence it starts to feel more and more like grrm is waggling his eyebrows suggestively and gesturing furtively all while mouthing ‘look over here’.