#JGY getting kicked down the stairs is part of his personality at this point. Of course I had to introduce him as such

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

More MDZS and Hollow Knight! The cool bugs I found in my backyard have started to unionize.

Part 1 - Part 3

[poorlittleyaoyao]

I don't know if you know, but the irony of wnxg is that they don't share with each others past experiences. It's not extremely important, but sharing is part of a relationship?? It's lxc who says to wwx about how lwj suffered for their mother's death; it's always lxc who reveals to wwx how lwj got 33 strikes. Instead, not having others, lwj doesn't know nothing about wwx past, only few rumors. It's me, I am boring, but sharing things with your partner, is important?? How are they gonna comunicate with lxc in seclusion?

Obv that's my opinion and mxtx did do a great job! I am still there, two years after, screaming about jl, jc, wq and jgy! She had a lot of plot, so maybe she couldn’t explore the romance properly!

This is a good point that I hadn't considered! It made me reflect on how much characters reveal in general about their own stories outside of undergoing Empathy, and the answer is... not many! JGY notably reveals his own experiences under duress at Guanyin Temple, but he still doesn't talk about his life prior to being kicked down the stairs in any detail; the flashback showing his and MS's abuse in the brothel comes via WWX doing Empathy with Anxin's ghost. Other than that, all the major revelations one character are told by someone else. Off the top of my head, we have WN (and not WWX) revealing the core transfer, LXC (and not MY) revealing that MY was a double agent, and Bicao (and not Madame Qin, QS, or JGY) revealing that JGY and QS were half-siblings. And even the subjects of Empathy aren't telling their stories so much as letting WWX come along for a ride in their memories.

So on the one hand, this is an established trend in the novel. On the other hand, given the sheer amount of TIME we spend on Wangxian Romance Content, it's quite strange that our two leads tell each other so little about themselves! I would find Wangxian much more interesting if they replaced even just some of the repetitive "one character initiates physical intimacy when the other character won't remember it later" scenes with actual conversations about their experiences and who they are as people. It hits LWJ especially hard, I think, because at least we as an audience know what's going on with WWX since he's our viewpoint character. For LWJ, we're dependent on what WWX knows or observes, which is deliberately lacking.

I disagree that MXTX simply didn't have time/space to fit that in alongside everything else, because CQL manages to do silly hijinks and personal revelations in THE SAME SCENE. Episode 6 opens with LWJ catching the One Braincell Trio drinking together. WWX makes LWJ drink wine, and we get a mini version of goofy Drunji shenanigans... but WWX also learns about the Lan forehead ribbons (which will be relevant later in the same episode), and LWJ and WWX learn that both have lost their parents. LWJ doesn't elaborate beyond "I don't have a mother," but his sad, faraway little face makes plain how keenly he feels about it. WWX notices, and he confesses to LWJ that he can barely remember his parents beyond the fragmented memory of riding a donkey. (He also tells him about the dogs!)

It's a lovely little moment, and it's what first had me going "aww🥺" about the two of them. (Still does, honestly! I know I'm salty on here a lot, but I genuinely do love Drama Wangxian when I'm actively watching the show and am away from fandom; I only wish they'd been able to be expressly romantic with it.) I was definitely entertained by them speedrunning fanfic tropes in the Cloud Recesses episodes, but I would have tired of them if that was all their interactions were. That tiny bit of genuine bonding is what made me interested in learning more about them both and invested in seeing how their relationship developed.

And the entire sequence is just 5 minutes out of one 45-minute episode! It doesn't take much, and the written equivalent was something I sorely missed in the two volumes of the novel I read.

[madtomedgar]

ok so like... i’m not citing text or claiming to have the Most Correct interpretation here but i’m going to just lay out my thoughts on the way i think jgy feels about nmj post sunshot. while i am aware that most of what he says and does in the empathy flashbacks is about appeasing or getting away from nmj, which points to his primary emotion towards him being fear, i don’t think that’s all there is to it.

because you don’t run yourself ragged and make mincemeat of your g-cal commuting between states to spend countless hours at your own expense to spend time with and try to help someone you just want to get away from.

jgy is absolutely terrified of nmj and doesn’t want him to be angry with him because he’s scared of being yelled at, hit, threatened, or having a saber swung at him with deadly intent. however, he also, i do think, genuinely cares (pre-stair kick or pre-???) about nmj and wants to help him, and specifically in cql help him get back to being who he was because he admired who he was before big sword brain disease took over. 

yes deputy meng yao is acting as a good subordinate should, and yes his life in the unclean realm kind of sucks and nmj is not good at helping but, for the timeline of cql, he is possibly the first person to try. and it, and whatever happens after that, is enough to inspire meng yao to do something he has to know he’ll be killed for to save him and the nie sect, and then jump on wen zhuliu’s sword for him. you don’t do that for someone you’re just... tolerating, i would argue, especially if you have other places you’d rather be. 

jgy very much does not have to go play for nmj. i think it’s implied that it’s a pretty big lift for him, and that doing it is causing some problems for his life. and yes, part of the motivation at first is to ease lxc’s burden and guilt around not being able to come but like... it really sounds like he’s going above and beyond. and yeah, if he can quell the saber rage, it benefits him because it’s less likely nmj will try to harm or kill him randomly, but to even do this, he has to go and put himself in harms way in a place where he has no hope of anyone coming to his defense. and again, while he does a lot of high risk/high reward things... this seems like not that to me. what it does seem like to me is that he misses the person nmj used to be and the approval etc he used to get from him, and he doesn’t know how to get that back really and maybe it’s not possible but maybe if he plays for him enough, maybe they can get to something that’s at least... nice? again?

and then he gets kicked down the stairs for his troubles and. well. 

[ouyangzizhensdad]

Perhaps you'd like a an ask that's not discourse related? If so, then I wanted to ask you if you know what jin zixuan thought of jin guangyao?

Hi anon,

I appreciate your non-discourse-related ask 😉. Your question made me realise that the novel seems to explicitly avoid giving us any real sense of what Jin Zixuan thought of Jin Guangyao, or how he reacted to the ways other people treated JGY. It seems that JZX remained unaware at the time that Meng Yao came on his birthday--and literally got kicked out. At Phoenix Mountain, JZX stops being mentioned after JGY appears and while his mother mistreats him--he’s only brought back into the narration at the very end to scream at JYL. JZX is also absent the night that WWX goes to Jinlintai to confront the Jins about Qiongqi path and in the direct aftermath. But let’s dig for crumbs and make sense of gaps, and let’s see what we can infer from them.

We know that, originally, Jin Zixuan was the epitome of the proud Jin: “The ways of the Jin Sect were proud, and Jin Zixuan inherited every single drop of this. With his high standards, he had been unsatisfied with this engagement since a long time ago.“ We could wonder if the circumstances of JGY’s birth would have been something JZX would have judged him for. We know that he took offense to WWX’s persona, although it is not spelled out exactly what offended him specifically: “Because of this engagement, Jin Zixuan had no positive impressions of the YunmengJiang Sect, and had frowned upon Wei Wuxian’s behavior since some time ago.“ However, it’s unclear whether the circumstances of WWX’s birth influenced how he perceived his behaviour. All we know for sure is that two other Jin family members--his father and Jin Zixun--never forgot about it and brought it up. We also know that in the past, JZX felt comfortable ignoring people’s good will towards him if he felt he was motivated in his view of them, as he did with JYL in the past:

Jin-furen had brought him to Lotus Pier a couple of times. Neither Wei Wuxian nor Jiang Cheng liked to play with him; only Jiang Yanli wanted to feed him the food that she made. Jin Zixuan, however, didn’t really like to pay her any attention.

At the same time, we do know that JZX had a sense of righteousness, what with him standing up against Wen Chao at Dusk-Creek Mountain. Likewise, we see with the soup incident that at least when it comes to a low-level cultivator who is a servant, a good deed done towards him without trying to gain his gratitude is enough to earn his respect, and for JZX to take action to raise the standing of that person:

Cleverly, the woman never acknowledged anything, but instead denied it ambiguously, her cheeks flushed, making it sound as though she was the one who did it, but didn’t want Jin Zixuan to know how much trouble she went through. And thus, Jin Zixuan didn’t force her to admit it any longer. However, in action, he had began to respect the cultivator. He began to pay attention to her, even raising her from a servant to a guest cultivator.

JZX even tells JYL: “Don’t think that just because you come from a powerful sect that you can steal and trample other people’s feelings. Some people, even if they come from poor backgrounds, their character are much better than the former’s. Please watch your conduct.” This underlines that, regardless of his upbringing, and perhaps even views that he might have held at some point in his life, at this point JZX seemed to want to judge others based on their character rather than their background. Of course, we can wonder if that reserve of good will would have extended to his half-brother, especially one that could try to take his place as the heir. However, considering the circumstances, from JGY’s birth to JGS’s decision to give him a name that did not align him with the same generation as JZX, we can wonder if anyone ever perceived then JGY as someone who could potentially become the next sect leader, as seen in this exchange between WWX and JC:

Jiang Cheng smirked, “Don’t carry your sword, then. It doesn’t matter. But don’t provoke Jin Zixuan from now on. He’s Jin Guangshan’s only son, after all. The future leader of the LanlingJin Sect will be him. If you beat him up, what should I, the sect leader, do? Beat him up with you? Or punish you?”

Wei Wuxian, “Isn’t Jin Guangyao here now? Jin Guangyao seems so much better than him.”

Jiang Cheng finished wiping his sword. After he scrutinized it for a while, he finally put Sandu back into its sheath, “So what, if he’s better? No matter how much better he is, no matter how clever, he could only be a servant who greets the guests. That’s all there is to his life. He can’t compare with Jin Zixuan.”

At Phoenix Mountain, while we do not see JZX say anything out of line to JGY, he is present while his mother and Jin Zixun disrespect him: and we get no reaction written for him while that takes place--he’s mostly licking his wounded pride. We also know that this disrespect by his family towards JGY was the norm, so we have to assume that JZX would have been a witness to it in other situations. In the context of that specific scene, it’s difficult to to infer something concrete from that silence: is it agreement? complicity? a certain indifference to JGY’s situation? an unwillingness of rock the boat or to seem to publicly challenge his mother? or simply him just being too self-absorbed by his romantic woes?

The next scene that would have made for an interesting case study is the night WWX comes to confront the Jins about the camp at Qiongqi Path. However, JZX is absent that night. Conveniently, or as a means to maintain a sense of ambiguity between him and WWX, we thereby do not know how JZX feels about what happened. He is also absent during the aftermath:  “At midnight, in the Golden Pavilion on JinlinTai sat over fifty sect leaders from sects of all sizes. Jin Guangshan sat in the foremost seat. Jin Zixuan was away [...].” (interesting that CQL added JZX to that scene). Which means he is not there to react to the mistreatment of JGY by others or to react to the way JGY is clearly lying for the purposes of manipulating the general opinion on WWX and save the Jin’s reputation.

We also do not get to witness the conversation that leads JZX to come to Qiongqi Path to try to stop Jin Zixun. All we get is a sentence of dialogue from JZX explaining that he thought JGY looked strange which prompted JZX tp questioned him questions (we of course know that JGY was purposefully acting that way to get JZX to go to Qionqqi Path, so it’s hard to take that as a sign of clear familiarity between them that would have allowed JZX to read hidden emotions from him). Did JZX ask out of specific concern for or suspicions of JGY? We don’t know! It is interesting to note though that, in this scene, Jin Zixun refers to JGY as “A-Yao”, which the narration contextualises by telling us that Jin Zixun started calling him in a more intimate manner despite the original contemps he had held for him. However, when JZX mentions JGY to Jin Zixun, he calls him “Jin Guangyao” (for reference, Jin Zixun calls JZX “Zixuan”).

All in all, we get very little from looking at JZX. However, there is something to be said in the absence of any specific grievances expressed by JGY towards him in terms of framing how JZX may have acted towards him when they were both at Jinlintai. Indeed, when Jin Ling asks JGY why he arranged for his father to go to Qiongqi path, meeting his death, JGY mentions the unfairness of the situation of both sons, but never brings up anything JZX did specifically to him. And we know that JGY has a great memory which allows him to hold grudges.

Suddenly, Jin Ling screamed, “Why?!” He stood up from beside Jiang Cheng. Eyes red, he rushed toward Jin Guangyao as he shouted, “Why did you have to do this?!”

Nie Huaisang hurried to pull back Jin Ling, who seemed as though he wanted to fight with Jin Guangyao. Jin Guangyao returned the question, “Why?” He turned to Jin Ling, “A-Ling, then could you tell me why? Why is it that even if I face everyone with a smile, I might not even receive the lowest form of respect, while even though your father was extremely arrogant, people flocked to him? Could you tell me why we were born from the same person but your father could relax at home with the love of his life playing with his child, while I never even dared be alone for long with my wife, shivering out of fright at first glance of my son? And I was ordered to do such a thing by my father as if it was natural—to kill an extremely dangerous figure who could flip out and conjure up a bloody massacre with his corpses anytime!

“Why is it that even though we were born on the same day, Jin Guangshan could host a grand banquet for one son, and watch with his own eyes how his subordinate kicked his other son down Jinlintai, from the first stair to the last!”

He finally revealed the hatred hidden deep within him. It wasn’t directed at neither Jin Zixuan nor Wei Wuxian, but rather his own father.

As a result, we might infer that, at the very least, JZX never directly acted towards JGY in a way that reflected how JGS or Jin Zixun (at some point) treated him. At the same time, it’s difficult to suggest that he stood up for him when other people disrespected him, and we know that JZX’s mother disrespected JGY in lieu of directing her anger toward the real culprit, her awful husband. Little seems to suggest that they grew intimate after JGY came to Jinlintai. It’s really hard to divine, as a result, what JZX might have thought of JGY.

The most interesting thing to take away from this is that it seems absolutely deliberate on MXTX’s part to show us as little as possible in terms of interactions between JZX and JGY. We can speculate as to why that is: to separate JZX from the machinations of this sect? to avoid giving us more ammunition to guess that JGY was behind JZX’s death? to ensure that WWX remains ambiguous towards JZX? or just as a means to avoid having to figure out how to work this dynamic into already complicated scenes and character relationships? etc.

[robininthelabyrinth]

Time-traveling JGY to right after his dad asks him to kill NMJ, he decides to do things the opposite way to the first time so he sulks around looking pale and sad for a day or two then allows his two sworn brothers to drag out of him what his dad asked him to do.

ao3

First order of business: don’t underestimate Nie Huaisang, Jin Guangyao decided when he figured out that the bizarre talisman he’d found that promised to abrogate his greatest regrets had actually somehow implausibly worked and he was back in the past.

Back at the right point in the past, no less – he’d spent a considerable amount of time meditating in front of Nie Mingjue’s head and wondering what would have been the right point to have changed things, and he’d settled on here and now. The point at which he’d already defeated Wen Ruohan and earned back his name, ceremony completed and everything sealed, but before his ‘family’ demonstrated how little they thought of him, before he’d sealed his fate by killing Nie Mingjue and losing himself to his family’s schemes forever. 

The time when he’d already broken Nie Mingjue’s trust once, and thought he’d lost it forever.

He’d been an idiot, of course.

He’d seen Nie Mingjue’s harshness and assumed it was hatred; he’d listened to his scolding and thought it was disdain; he’d thought that Nie Mingjue had sworn brotherhood with him for the sole purpose of humiliating him, when of course it was only that Nie Mingjue had already shifted over to thinking of him as family and didn’t actually know what to do with family when he wasn’t lecturing them.

Such a waste.

He had considered going back to before – to the time before he’d murdered a man and lost Nie Mingjue’s trust the first time, because nothing that was broken could ever be returned to how it was originally, but that was far too risky. What if him having never left Nie Mingjue’s side meant that they failed to defeat Wen Ruohan? Wouldn’t it all be for nothing, then?

Not to mention the personal inconvenience – he’d lived through war and spying once, and he had no interest in going through it again, thank you – and besides he’d already gotten used to the name Jin Guangyao. It’d be such a bother to have to reaccustom himself to something else if he had to obtain through some other means the name that he had promised his mother on her deathbed that he’d get, and who knew if those other means might lead to some other break with Nie Mingjue.

He deserved for it to be Jin Ziyao, of course, but since when had anything happened the way he’d deserved? Since when did he ever get anything in his life that he didn’t have to scheme for and fight for?

Except perhaps for Nie Mingjue’s affection, that first time.

Oh, he’d schemed to get his attention all right. On his way to Qinghe, he’d listened at every campfire he could, gathered information and rumor about what Sect Leader Nie – the most open-minded of the sect leaders when it came to accepting talent regardless of origin – liked and disliked, and using his mother’s teachings he’d planned a meticulous campaign based on what he learned. A careful balance of being useful and being pitiful, appealing to the man’s respect for competence and his pleasure in standing up for the innocent, engendering good feelings that could be turned to his benefit when he eventually sought out a position of power, slowly at first to avoid giving him the impression that he was using him, and then climbing little by little…

He’d barely gotten past the first step or two of the plan before Nie Mingjue was rushing past him, freely giving him the power and authority he so desperately craved, giving him respect he hadn’t even known was possible to get from someone so different. Nie Mingjue had treated him as far more than a mere deputy, more than a trusted advisor, treated him as a friend.

Nie Mingjue freely gave Jin Guangyao warmth of the sort he’d lacked since his mother died.

Jin Guangyao had been a fool not to realize the value of that, in his first life. Only when he had all the power in the world and none of the love had he realized how much he had had, how much he had lost.

How pointless all that power was, without the love.

It had been an understandable mistake for him to have made – at that time, it hadn’t been so long since he lost his mother, after all, and she’d loved him dearly, so thoroughly, so all-consumingly, that the honest and sincere affection he received from Nie Mingjue didn’t seem so important when it was compared to his ambitions.

Of course, having achieved all of his ambitions through all his schemes only to be brought down by vengeance born of that same Nie warmth and love had been – very educational.

And yet…not quite as educational as the other part of it.

At what had happened between him and his sworn brothers, in the end.

Jin Guangyao’s heart was made of stone, he knew, and it had only ever been moved twice in his life. He had only ever felt his heart beat fast because of the two men who had treated him well with no expectation of receiving anything in return. Lan Xichen, the beautiful and perfect gentleman who smiled at him and relied on him, and Nie Mingjue, the brave and powerful sect leader that found him pleasing and gave him everything, even his trust - at first.

In his past life, he had put Lan Xichen on a pedestal in his heart, the man appearing in every way the very image of the ideal cultivator that Jin Guangyao had dreamed of when he was a child. It had pleased him to be the one to save Lan Xichen, the one to protect him, to provide for him – it had made him feel strong, powerful, even before he actually had the power in his hands. For all that his cultivation was weaker, his age younger, Jin Guangyao was the stronger one between the two of them, and not only when he had saved his life, but after, too. Lan Xichen’s sect relied upon his Jin sect for their rebuilding, and Lan Xichen himself, a yielding personality that hated conflict, often relied on his guidance when it came to politics.

Jin Guangyao had fancied himself the man’s patron, luxuriating in the feeling of having made it so well and so thoroughly that he could keep a man like Lan Xichen, and in so doing he’d fallen for the same trick that each and every prostitute ever born had used on a willing mark since the beginning of time.

What had he not given Lan Xichen, in his first life? What had he stinted on, except perhaps the truths that would only hurt the man to know?

And what had it gotten him, in the end?

A single word from Lan Wangji, with his head turned by Wei Wuxian as always, had been enough for Lan Xichen to ban him from the Cloud Recesses without even a discussion, all the money and time and effort Jin Guangyao had put into rebuilding that very place forgotten as if it had never happened, as if the Cloud Recesses had resurrected itself without outside aid, or perhaps that it had never fallen at all.

A few rumors by prostitute and a bribed maid, and Lan Xichen believed the worst of him.

A child’s trick by Nie Huaisang (though Jin Guangyao hadn’t yet realized all that he’d done), and Lan Xichen had run him through without so much as a blink.

Jin Guangyao did not delude himself into thinking this was a tragedy unique to him. No, he was exactly like every other rich man who’d been squeezed dry by a beauty for his money and his power and abandoned the second it ran out.

Jin Guangyao had been angry, in his first life, that Nie Mingjue had – in his mind – cast him aside when he’d violated the man’s principles, but in the end Lan Xichen had done the same, and it was far worse because Jin Guangyao had given so much more of himself to him.

Chivalry, honor – who needed it?

Certainly not Nie Huaisang, who for his brother’s sake had thrown away every last bit of respectability his birth had ever given him to wade into the muck to fight Jin Guangyao on his own terms and win; barely even Nie Mingjue, who might have clothed his deeds in respectability but who had gone to war – had dragged the rest of the cultivation world into death and despair – in order to avenge his father.

If it had been Nie Mingjue at the temple, not Lan Xichen, would Jin Guangyao had been run through? Or would Nie Mingjue, of the strong will but even stronger heart, have in the end stayed his blade, his terrible Baxia, and allowed Jin Guangyao to flee, just as he’d done so many years earlier?

It was only now, in thinking it over in the harsh light of hindsight, that he even thought to compare them.

He had only known Nie Mingjue for a few years, compared to the nearly two decades he had devoted to Lan Xichen, and yet in those years Nie Mingjue had never, even at his worst, sought to kill Jin Guangyao, even though he could have easily done so. Even full of poison and rot and deliberately instigated madness, driven to calling Jin Guangyao the insult he knew he hated most – although Jin Guangyao could admit to himself in retrospect that he was, at that precise moment, acting especially like a son of a whore – Nie Mingjue had held back his fearsome strength when he kicked him down the stairs of Jinlin Tower.

He hadn’t even bruised a rib in that fall. When his father had kicked him, he’d broken three.

If he had had two decades to work his way into Nie Mingjue’s confidence, earn his love…would Nie Mingjue have so easily turned away from him?

No.

Nie Mingjue would have sought him out to hear his side of the story, the way he always did back in the army camp when troublemakers spread rumors about him in an effort to displace him. He would have called him to the Unclean Realm to explain himself, rather than banning him without a word. He would have refused to listen to rumors presented without basis and insisted on proof, on seeing for himself, insisted on letting Jin Guangyao have the opportunity to defend himself.

He would have protected him from his enemies even as he shouted at him – he would have thrown himself between the sword and Jin Guangyao rather than let him face the penalty of his actions alone.

He would not have run him through so thoughtlessly, as if he were a ghoul rather than a friend.

He would have let him go.

Yes, Jin Guangyao was sure of it. Nie Mingjue would have let him go.

Damn the man, too much an older brother to be able to put any conditions on his love, the naïve idiot probably wouldn’t have stopped there; he probably would have given Jin Guangyao money to help him on his way, wanting to make sure that the life he lived in Dongying would be a good one.

He would have done the same way if it had been Nie Huaisang that had been accused of so much evil. The same way he’d dragged his feet about going to fight Wei Wuxian at the Burial Mounds, even though his own men had been killed by him; the same way he couldn’t bring himself to kill Jin Guangyao even after he’d murdered Nie disciples right before his eyes…

The way everyone in the Nie sect had to train, without exception – except for Nie Huaisang, because Nie Mingjue loved him.

He’d loved Jin Guangyao, once. Loved him enough to swear brotherhood with him despite the blood of those Nie sect disciples scarcely having been washed off his hands – if Nie Mingjue could forgive that, then surely the murder of a few dozen other sects wouldn’t have mattered nearly as much, not the way they mattered to Lan Xichen.

Or, well, maybe they would have, but Nie Mingjue would have broken himself for him anyway.

And then Nie Huaisang would’ve had to find a way to plot against him from a distance, which would be much harder for him, no matter how smart he was. Of course, that was assuming that Nie Huaisang would have plotted against him, instead of scheming to find a way to whitewash Jin Guangyao’s name in order to bring him back to make his brother happy, the way he’d so obviously (in retrospect) done with Wei Wuxian on behalf of Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji, who had been his friends.

First order of business: don’t underestimate Nie Huaisang.

Second order of business: get Nie Mingjue on my side.

It wouldn’t be that hard. Jin Guangyao was older and wiser now, less impulsive than he’d been, a little wiser in the way of people, perhaps. It hadn’t been until he saw the depths of what Nie Huaisang had done – his uncaring eyes that only a few days before had been crying into his shoulder as if Jin Guangyao was the only person in the world who loved him – that he realized that what Nie Mingjue had hated most about Jin Guangyao’s betrayal had been the treachery of it, not the specific actions he’d taken.

He’d presented himself as someone pure and innocent and clean, someone who would never do such a thing, and so when he had done it Nie Mingjue had realized that he had been lied to for all that time. That he had extended trust, and received none.

By the point in time he was at now, Nie Mingjue knew what type of person he was: ambitious and cutthroat, ruthless, a liar and a murderer. And yet, knowing all this, he still had still sworn brotherhood to him – had still extended his trust.

All Jin Guangyao needed to do now, thus, was to extend that trust in return.

For real, this time. Or at least – as close as he ever came to real.

His father’s request that Jin Guangyao use his connections to his sworn brothers to make Nie Mingjue stop his pestering over Xue Yang – so carefully couched in words that could be denied later, and were – would work perfectly. He would pretend to sulk, reluctant to admit what was wrong; Lan Xichen would fall for it at once and try to coax the truth out of him.

He would tell them.

Lan Xichen would be filled with horror, livid at what Jin Guangshan had asked of him, at what he was being forced to do – furious on his behalf, leaping to his defense. The perfect gentleman, as always.

Nie Mingjue, though, wouldn’t trust a word he said. Later, when they were alone, Jin Guangyao could look him in the eye and admit that he’d considered it. That he’d weighed the pros and cons of it, the love of his father and filial duty and, yes, even power –

It’s a waste, he’d say. I don’t know what’s right and what’s wrong, da-ge, you know that, but I know that I don’t want to lose you.

Nie Mingjue would believe him.

He wouldn’t believe the sad and pitiful version of him that Lan Xichen had always liked, but he’d believe the ruthless Jin Guangyao, finally tricked back to the side of righteousness by some unnamed emotion that caught him by surprise – yes, Nie Mingjue would like that.

Lan Xichen wouldn’t.

Jin Guangyao had always known, hadn’t he, even in his first life, that he would only ever be able to please one of them perfectly. He’d known that doing what he needed to do to ensnare Lan Xichen, who loved rescuing the pitiful, would anger Nie Mingjue, who hated hypocrisy; he had decided, his eyes full of the pure moonlight, that he preferred Lan Xichen, and acted accordingly.

Well, Jin Guangyao was not and had never been a stern absolutist, inflexible and unbending. He knew how to learn from his mistakes.

He’d given Lan Xichen a lifetime, and it had turned out – well, for a while, and then terribly.

In this lifetime, he’d see how far Nie Mingjue could take him.

Next order of business – don’t underestimate Lan Wangji. It’s always the younger brothers…

[amedetoiles]

pls tell me your thoughts about the potential for wwx-jgy friendship? i just like the idea of them having similar experiences as like: poor street kid/poor brothel kid, would kill god for the people they care about, made of knives, incredibly charming and personable. i feel like they could have Seen each other and understood each other really well, and like, things would have ended up better maybe?

Gosh. Ok, so full disclosure before I answer this: I am really not the most sympathetic towards Jin Guangyao. I am just not a fan of him in any universe where he is complicit if not directly responsible for the death of his own child to protect his own reputation (up for debate, but nonetheless Jin Rusong fucking deserved better), gaslights his wife / half-sister into committing suicide, and has a monologue meltdown about how difficult his life has been to his own orphaned and bullied nephew whose childhood he had a hand in destroying. I am glad he got kicked down the same stairs twice, and I am glad Nie Huaisang beat him at his own game. All in all to say that my thoughts on him might be colored by this. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But let’s get into this! Jin Guangyao is a great character foil to Wei Wuxian. The circumstances of his life that shaped his morality (or lack thereof) and the choices he makes in response are tragic and understandable. I definitely think Jin Guangyao could have been a different person, a better person, if his father wasn’t such a trash heap, if society hadn’t been such a gigantic dick about his mother, and if he hadn’t needed to claw his way into achieving everything he did. Wei Wuxian says himself that he doesn’t consider Jin Guangyao a villain.

However, I hesitate to say that had they struck up a friendship, Jin Guangyao and Wei Wuxian could have understood each other easily and that this could have changed things. Don’t get me wrong! I can definitely see how influence could have been made where a friendship between these two would have fixed it all. Or at least improved things. Especially in association with Wei Wuxian, Jiang Yanli’s nonjudgemental kindness (under the condition that nobody hurts her little brothers) would have been extremely refreshing to Meng Yao.

But I also think the differences between Wei Wuxian and Jin Guangyao would have made it difficult for them to truly understand and agree with each other. And it’s these differences that ultimately decide each of their fates.

I will try to organize my thoughts on this. First, the discussion of privilege.

1. Wei Wuxian and Jin Guangyao are not on the same privilege level.

While both Wei Wuxian and Jin Guangyao are scorned in some way, shape, or form for their parents’ statuses, Wei Wuxian is still the son of cultivators. He is still the son of Cangse sanren, a disciple of a famed immortal. His pedigree and legacy are undeniable. Jin Guangyao, on the other hand, is the unwanted son of a lecherous sect leader and a sex worker. In a society where hierarchy and reputation is everything, this places Jin Guangyao in an entirely different pedigree in a way that Wei Wuxian wouldn’t be able to understand.

Wei Wuxian is also brought into the Jiang sect and given a chance to cultivate at an early age where Jin Guangyao doesn’t. Wei Wuxian can punch the heir of a rich sect leader, leading to the dissolution of his sister’s political marriage alliance, and still get nothing but a slap on the wrist because boys will be boys. He can interrupt important post-war celebration dinners to tell that same rich sect leader to fuck off with his marriage proposal and then promptly skip away without any real consequences. He can accidentally send his friend’s little brother into a murderous rampage, and his own little brother will apologize on his behalf and offer to pay reparations.

Wei Wuxian may not have the same privilege as sect heirs like Jiang Cheng or Lan Wangji, but he has far more privilege than Jin Guangyao and Su She. This is important because it is this privilege that Wei Wuxian sacrifices later in order to the protect the Wens. I am not saying Wei Wuxian doesn’t suffer. He does, a truly horrendous amount, but even without his golden core, even when his self-worth is at an all-time low, he is still supported and protected by his status in the Jiang sect until he gives it up to do the right thing. Despite Lan Xichen and the Nies, Jin Guangyao doesn’t have this same kind of backing.

(With that being said though, Jin Guangyao does become Chief Cultivator, so there is only so far one can fall back on their disadvantages in society when they have already reached the top. Being marginalized is not an excuse to be a jackass to your nephew whose parents you had a hand in killing, just saying.)

One can argue that had Jin Guangyao been raised in the Jiang sect while Wei Wuxian continued to scrape for food on the streets, their outlook on life would have been completely different. But even taking into account Jiang Yanli’s overwhelmingly positive influence on a young Meng Yao, I am still inclined to disagree because of my next point.

2. Wei Wuxian and Jin Guangyao are fundamentally different in how they respond/cope with public gossip and ridicule.

Wei Wuxian, for the most part, lets these comments roll off his back. This is not to say he doesn’t care or that they don’t affect him. They clearly do, and his actions, his self-perception, and his increasingly arrogant bravado as the story progresses reflect the deluge of verbal abuse he’s face with, largely at the hands of Madam Yu. But he copes by being loud, by being talented, by becoming even more outrageous and more unorthodox the more people criticize him. So what if people don’t approve? So what if people look down on his father and gossip about his mother’s supposed relationship with Jiang Fengmian? As long as he is true to himself and his moral convictions, he can walk this dark single plank road alone and without regrets.

Jin Guangyao, on the other hand, desperately and reverently wants to be included. He wants to be accepted, to be liked. He wants to be in the room where it happens. He takes every single comment to heart, carries every disdainful remark on his back like an open scar. He is both someone who loves and respect his mother and who hates her for the constant shadow she casts over him and his place in society. He will build a Guanyin statue in her likeness, in her honor. He will wear a hat because she once told him that a gentleman always wears hats. And yet, he will spend everyday of his life trying to rid himself of his connection to her.

Where Wei Wuxian recklessly cares too little about appearances and what people think of him, Jin Guangyao cares far too much. Wei Wuxian doesn’t give one flying iota about politics, about status and acclaim. He was perfectly fine with being a lotus farmer on a mountain. Even if Wei Wuxian had never been taken in by the Jiangs (and managed to survive the streets), I genuinely think he would still have been largely the same – a child who is kind, open, curious, and holds few grudges. I am not sure I can say that even under the best circumstances, Jin Guangyao wouldn’t have . It destroys him. .

This ties into my last point.

3. Wei Wuxian and Jin Guangyao have completely opposing priorities and beliefs on the worth of others.

Wei Wuxian will throw himself in front of anybody if his moral compass tells him it is the right thing to do. He is a genuinely open-hearted person who cares deeply about others and thinks it is morally corrupt to do nothing when something can be done. He is idealistic and optimistic, oftentimes to a fault. Jin Guangyao, as a result of his childhood and circumstances, is incredibly pessimistic and cynical. It is every person for themselves out here. The world is a crooked shitshow, conflict is inevitable, and he has to come out on top no matter what.

This leads to him sacrificing pretty much everyone in his life in order to maintain his own reputation. Like I do genuinely think Jin Guangyao truly cared about Jin Ling! I think he also in his own way cared about Lan Xichen, Nie Mingjue, and Nie Huaisang! But I also think a large portion of that is because he enjoyed how they made him feel. He enjoyed being liked and being depended upon. And we see clearly what happens when those benefits cease. Whereas Wei Wuxian would rather throw himself off a cliff than hurt any more people he loves, Jin Guangyao would rather push his own people off the cliff if it means his reputation and appearance remain intact. And if that’s not possible, he would rather set them on fire along with him.

This has become an entirely too long rambling essay to say that while Wei Wuxian and Jin Guangyao share similar experiences, their primary priorities are so different and opposing that it is hard for me to come up with a way in which a friendship between them could have changed things. Sure, Jin Guangyao could have benefited from Wei Wuxian’s unabashed and staunch defense of his friend. Anyone who talks shit about Jin Guangyao’s mother will get punched in the face, and it would maybe have made Jin Guangyao feel less alone in the world, less like he only had himself and his manipulative ways to seek acceptance.

But what happens when Wei Wuxian being Wei Wuxian runs around causing social and political uproar to do what he thinks is right? Is Jin Guangyao going to help and support him, or is he going to throw Wei Wuxian under the bus to protect his own reputation? Personally, I think the importance he places on public perception would ultimately be too great. It destroys his relationships, and it destroys him.

[veliseraptor]

if you're still doing the five headcanons meme, how about character-defining quotes for a character of your choice from the untamed/mdzs? (I know I said your choice and IT IS!!! but personally I'd love to see JC or JGY, or hardmode maybe Jin Ling)

oh man, anon, you’re giving me hard mode regardless purely because I can’t...look up quotes, so I have to go off my memory and then go hunt them down episode by episode. 

decided to go with Jin Guangyao because I love him and I feel like I don’t write enough about him myself (as opposed to just reblogging other peoples’ writing about him and yelling about it in the tags).

Two things that came out of this: 1. this got really long, so sorry about that if that’s not what you wanted, and 2. I now have so many Jin Guangyao screencaps. (This is not a problem.)

finally I am coming at this as a certified Jiggy Apologist™ so heads up there.

(Using Viki subtitles because I can’t screencap from Netflix anyway.)

1. "How can I be the same as you? You want me to not be afraid of the sky or afraid of the ground? I am exactly afraid of the sky, afraid of the ground, and even afraid of people!”

I mean, okay, this whole speech is one big Jin Guangyao Manifesto, but as I was going through it to pick a specific bit for this response this was the part that stuck with me - because in many ways Jin Guangyao is a man driven by intense and inescapable fear. The entire world feels as though it is against him and always has been against him, or at least as though it is just waiting for an excuse to tear his throat out the second it sees weakness. This ties in to #2 (and Jiggy’s ‘then bite first’ instinct, but this one I think is particularly defining because of the way it emphasizes specifically fear. 

“Afraid of the sky, afraid of the ground, and even afraid of people.” Set against Nie Mingjue’s earlier words, too - listed as a bonus on this post - this is also Jin Guangyao confessing to what he knows Nie Mingjue will judge as cowardice. 

There’s this great post about how this whole scene is very Jin Guangyao Speaking His Truth - to the person he knows will reject it. He admits this - this fear that drives him, that is his constant companion, the fear that quickly becomes paranoia as his world spirals out of control (control, that he hangs onto so tightly because either he has all of the power or none of it, and without power he can’t protect himself) - with at least some knowledge that it won’t matter.

Because of course it doesn’t matter. How can I be the same as you, he asks, and his entire answer to that question will always be I can’t - I have to make my own way, however ugly that looks.

2. “In this world, everyone began with no grudges. Someone will always come forward with the first stab.” 

I wrote a bit of a post about this one the last time I watched this episode! Basically how he’s talking to Wei Wuxian here, but I think he’s also talking about himself - and, obliquely, explaining himself. He began with no grudges, like everyone else here. Someone was always going to strike first - as his father did, to him, when he kicked him down the stairs of Jinlintai. He went there to get his acceptance, grudge-free, and limped away having come off the worse. It didn’t matter that he hadn’t done anything to Jin Guangshan. 

Everyone begins unstained, but nobody stays that way. It’s sort of a race to the bottom way of looking at things, maybe, but given how much time Jin Guangyao has spent with people stepping on him, it’s pretty understandable that he looks at people with fear (see above!) as those who will potentially kick him down a flight of stairs. 

Eventually someone will hit first, and in Jin Guangyao’s experience if he doesn’t do it then the other person will. Why lie down and let them go for it? Why not at least try to fight back?

3. “'Abhor evil as one’s deadly foe...’ Am I exactly that evil then?”

So this is in response to Lan Xichen’s attempt at being comforting by telling Jin Guangyao that it’s not him! Nie Mingjue is just like that about people he thinks are evil!” and Jin Guangyao is like. “So let’s examine that for a minute.”

It doesn’t just function as pointing up to Lan Xichen what he just said/implied, though (and Lan Xichen clearly realizes he said something wrong, as he stumbles over responding to this question), but it’s also, I think, to some extent a genuine question - both internally and externally directed.

I think about this great breakdown of this scene, and how Jin Guangyao is trying to balance three powerful people and keep them all happy(ish) with him. He is, here, about to do something awful - possibly unforgivable. And I think there is a hesitation, a desire to know (am I evil or am I just doing what I have to?) but also to be reassured. Jin Guangyao isn’t someone where questions of right and wrong, good and evil, don’t matter or don’t concern him. And especially here, it matters very much in the context of Lan Xichen, specifically.

Am I evil? And if I am, what does that mean: for me, for you, for us?

But it’s not just about Lan Xichen, either. It’s posed at himself, too. Is this the line that’s too far? Is this the place where I cross a point of no return? Is it?

Does it matter, if evil is what I already am?

4. "”Under the circumstances, doing one more or doing one less, what’s the difference?”

This one...oof. I resist, to a certain extent, the retroactive “Jin Guangyao was responsible for literally every bad thing that happened after the end of Sunshot” that the Guanyin Temple scenes present. It feels a little too neat. And I’m not quite saying ‘I reject this canon and ignore it because I want to’ but I do feel like...this line interests me because it illustrates not just where Jin Guangyao is at this point (’there is nothing I can say, you’ve made up your minds about me and there’s no point arguing details anymore’) but also, more generally, how he got here.

Because it’s very easy to see how incremental Jin Guangyao’s actions are. Starting out doing things for his father - following orders, getting his hands bloody on Jin Guangshan’s behalf. And escalating. Because once he’s done one bad thing - once he’s already crossed one moral line...what’s another? Or another? Once he’s already stained, how much of a difference does it really make if he does worse?

And besides...he was never going to be virtuous. He was never going to be clean.

5. “In my life, I have lied countless times, killed countless times. Just like you said, of all the evil deeds in the world, what haven’t I done? But I...I had never thought about harming you.”

So I like pain! And this is very. Very ouch. I feel like I see a lot of people arguing about whether this is sincere, or how sincere Jin Guangyao’s feelings for Lan Xichen were, or whether he was just lying to/manipulating him all along - but I think this is a very real, truly honest moment. Because he’s admitting to everything - admitting to a kind of hideous monstrosity that he avoided claiming before this moment, even as he was truthful about what he’d done and why. And he’s doing it to contrast it with that last line: I had never thought about harming you.

Lan Xichen was the cleanest part of his life. Lan Xichen was the person with whom he got to be his best self - the self he wanted to be (at another point in this scene he says it’s not that I didn’t want to be a good person). It’s not his truest self because Jin Guangyao doesn’t really have one of those (who does?), but a self that he doesn’t get to be with anyone else (to a certain extent, also with Qin Su, but there’s a different kind of reserve there however much he cares about her; a consequence of what he knows to be true about their relationship, particularly after Rusong’s death). That’s precious to him. That’s priceless. And here, after everything else is ripped away, their relationship shredded, there’s still this to lose: he never thought about harming Lan Xichen (he did, of course, but never directly). But Lan Xichen is killing him.

BONUS: “A real man can stand up straight and do what’s right. The more these people spout a stream of rhetoric nonsense behind your back, the more you must do things to the point that they have nothing else to say.”

So this is a bonus instead of one of the five because it’s Nie Mingjue speaking and not Jin Guangyao himself, but the level to which this is - how Jin Guangyao approaches things for a long while is really...pretty intense. And in some ways the tipping point for Jin Guangyao is the realization, constant and unending, that it doesn’t matter what he does, or how much he does, or how hard he works - people will always have something to say. There will always be more insults, more snide comments, more judgment. There is no possible way for him to be a real man; the opportunity to stand up straight is, as far as Jin Guangyao is concerned, one he lost the moment he was born in a brothel. 

But I think there is a period of time where he wants to believe in this kind of merit-based success. That if he pushes himself hard enough, he’ll be able to better himself, to make enough gains that he can stand up straight, to make good of himself. That’s an encouraging thing to believe! And for someone like Jin Guangyao who prizes his control - the idea of having that much control/agency is a very appealing one. But he keeps running into the fact that in a rigid, hierarchical society where rumor is king, there’s no real such thing as merit-based success, or at least not the kind where they’ll let you forget where you came from. 

I think that’s a big part of Jin Guangyao’s breaking point, actually - not just the knowing he’ll never be good enough to be more than the son of a prostitute, but the disjunction between people claiming that if he just tried harder then it would be better (notably, Nie Mingjue, here, who I think does believe it to some extent), and his lived experience of trying very, very hard all the time and always eventually running into the ‘son of a prostitute’ glass ceiling. 

There’s no way out, he says in Guanyin Temple; I think in some ways Jin Guangyao’s life has been a succession of closed doors and narrowing paths where it feels, again and again, like there’s no way out - or at least, no right way. No clean way. 

The only way to win was to do terrible things.

[songofclarity]

Your tags on that one gif set with Lan Xichen and Nie Mingjue in Wen Ruohan's throne room are so good, and also they made me want to reread that chapter (I have finished the book by now! well, all but a few of the extra chapters) to refresh my memory as to how that scene went in the book.

A very belated thank you! I’ve read Nie MingJue’s empathy chapters a ridiculous amount of times and it’s always time well spent, so I definitely encourage it if you haven’t gone back to reread it already!

I had to go take a look at what I wrote in the tags, which I’ll link in the sources for reference sake, but:

#the first and only time we see lxc defend jgy to nmj is this scene #set in the place where jgy hosted nmj's torture #we can't even see nmj's face at this angle but #he's just swaying like he can barely hold himself up #and his hair is all out of sorts #i desperately cling to the novel version #where lxc is supporting him the whole time #where lxc won't let nmj kill jgy #bc nmj was going to kill himself as well #just in case jgy really was innocent #nmj calling jgy's bluff #but lxc stops it all #bc lxc wants to save lives if there isn't hard proof against them #oh cql how cruel of you to wreck havoc on nmj and lxc's relationship like this...

Wow, this scene does make me feel things! Although I do side-eye a lot of what CQL did with Lan XIChen’s character and motivations lol I’m just going to pull part of the scene from the novel since we’re here~ Or that I’m here and there is no one to stop me...

(Meng Yao,) "ChiFeng-Zun!!! Don't you understand that if I didn't kill [the Nie cultivators held captive alongside you], you'd be the one who die then?!!"

This was actually the same as saying, 'I'm the one who saved your life so you can't kill me or else it'd be immoral.' However, Jin GuangYao was indeed worthy of his reputation. The same meaning but a different wording, and he was able to create a contained sense of frustration and a reserved sense of sorrow. As he had expected, Nie MingJue's movement halted. Veins stood out under his forehead.

Having paused for a while, [Nie MingJue] clenched the hilt of his saber and shouted, "Very well! I'll kill myself after I kill you!"

So Meng Yao is very much being manipulative here in the face of Nie MingJue having just woken up from a traumatic, near-death experience being carried by someone who was an eager contributor of said traumatic, near-death experience. A chase scene ensues but Nie MingJue is too weak to do much more than be menacing. Meng Yao does have a cut on his arm by the time Lan XiChen arrives, but Wei WuXian’s narration consistently states Meng Yao dodged and ran, so who knows how he got it or (conspiracy theory!) he gave it to himself, knowing Lan XiChen would arrive.

Amid all the action, a surprised voice suddenly called out, "MingJue-xiong!"

A figure dressed in clean, white robes darted out of the forest. Meng Yao looked as if he had just seen a god from Heaven. He quickly scrambled over and hid behind the person's back, "ZeWu-Jun!!! ZeWu-Jun!!!"

Nie MingJue was in the middle of his rage. He didn't even have the chance to ask why Lan XiChen was there as he shouted, "XiChen, move!"

Baxia's strikes were so menacing that Shuoyue had to unsheath. Lan XiChen stopped him, half to support his figure and half to block his attacks, "MingJue-xiong, calm down! Why bother?"

Nie MingJue, "Why don't you ask what he did?!"

Lan XiChen turned around to look at Meng Yao... (ERS, ch. 49)

“A god from Heaven,” Lan XiChen is described, who goes right to Nie MingJue’s side. It’s Nie MingJue he’s worried for, it’s Nie MingJue he keeps from falling. Nie MingJue is covered in blood, he’s injured, he’s raging -- Nie MingJue is the one who needs help and support, and Lan XiChen doesn’t even hesitate to get right in there and provide it. People are later shown fearful and respectful of Nie MingJue to such a degree that they won’t throw him flowers to him at a welcoming ceremony for fear of provoking his anger, but Lan XiChen always shows absolute faith that Nie MIngJue would never harm him even when Baxia is unleashed.

So although I love CQL having Nie MingJue wake up on Lan XiChen’s lap in the Sun Palace, it still pales in comparison to Lan XiChen racing forward without care for his own safety in order to grab onto Nie MingJue. Nie MingJue who faced total defeat at Yangquan. Nie MingJue who was captured by Wen RuoHan. Nie MingJue who is bloodied and injured and was very likely thought as good as dead.

And although the argument might also be made that Lan XiChen was throwing himself into danger to save Meng Yao, I don’t see it considering Lan XiChen’s focus is always on Nie MingJue. Here at Nightless City, at the stairs of Koi Tower, and at the Tournament in Qinghe, Lan XiChen stays with Nie MingJue with the intention of talking him down. Nie MingJue’s anger is a double-edged sword. He might kill Meng Yao, yes, but his risk of qi deviating will kill him, too. I think of this in the perspective of a healthcare professional: you stay with the patient when they are having a mental crisis. It gives them stability and grounding and safety, which is what Lan XiChen consistently offers--and which Meng Yao freely takes by hiding behind him. Nie MingJue is the one who needs immediate help, not Meng Yao. And that’s how Meng Yao gets away with all his nonsense. Lan XiChen is so focused on Nie MingJue, on talking him back from the ledge, on making sure he gets the help he needs, that he doesn’t see Meng Yao’s slight of hand. He doesn’t see what Nie MingJue sees with Meng Yao cowering behind him.

But even when Nie MingJue and Lan XiChen argue about Meng Yao in the novel, they are never on opposite sides. They present to each other what they know and what they’ve seen. They both listen and they both get opportunities to speak until understanding occurs. This is a very healthy relationship! At least fundamentally. When Nie MingJue tells Lan XiChen to ask Meng Yao what he’s done, Lan XiChen doesn’t question him or doubt him, but instead turns to do so. Meng Yao does not get a free pass, but he uses silence to get others to speak for him. He is still held accountable, but it just so happens the story he has spun is quite convincing.

And although Lan XiChen provides Meng Yao a defense, the defense is consistently this: Meng Yao’s actions were done to help Nie MingJue. While we know that is a lie, that Nie MingJue was little more than Meng Yao’s means to an end, the understanding Lan XiChen has been led to believe is sound. Lan XiChen as well says that he wouldn’t be there to help Nie MingJue without Meng Yao having told him where to go. Thus, coming from Lan XiChen’s mouth, Nie MingJue is led to believe the tale as well.

It’s just all about the inherent love and trust in Nie MingJue and Lan XiChen’s relationship! That even when they argue, there is still love, and after they fight, there is still love. At no point does their relationship ever falter. At no point do they doubt one another. And that’s beautiful.

On another note, Meng Yao immediately going to hide behind Lan XIChen is so reminiscent of how Nie HuaiSang behaves in the future. The Nie HuaiSang we know prior to Nie MingJue’s death is actually quite bold! He yells at Nie MingJue and kicks his saber and storms out! Who else has yelled at Nie MingJue!? Nobody! So Nie HuaiSang literally used Meng Yao's pitiful act as his cover for his revenge scheme and I love it.

[sandupommelfrog]

im not insane ab jgy the way i am ab jc but this conflict keeps me spinning him around in my brain like an ant in a microwave. this is sort of rambly but is the most succinct summation of my little yao-yao thoughts.

i feel like jgy believes that the ends justify the means, and that’s a core of his character. but, when human life is involved and u really start thinking ab it, it becomes a possibly fundamentally unanswerable moral question. we ofc hv the power of hindsight and knowing the end and chain of events of the story as readers but even still, it’s a large knot to untangle!

for example, Qin Su! in cql canon, jgy learns ab That Whole Deal before they have get married or conceive so it becomes a choice he has to make instead of life kicking him down another (emotional) flight of stairs. if he breaks off the engagment and explains why, all chances of his aspirations and filial piety are dead in the water. if he breaks it off and doesn’t explain, slightly less dead in the water but pretty shot. if he tells Qin Su, she’ll surely want to go with that option. if he keeps it secret and doesn’t tell Qin Su, he spares her anguish and can follow his aspirations. and he does save a lot of lives with the watchtower project!

but that then begs the question, does what the good he has done justify what he did t Qin Su? are those countless lives worth her suffering? especially when that good was just an abstract potential when he made that decision?

as others have pointed out, Jin Guangyao couldve had her killed to tie up that loose end, but he doesnt and that contributes to his downfall, so he does care about her on some level, even if that ends up hurting her deeply.

i believe Jin Guangyao has to believe his ends justify the means or otherwise compartmentalize what he’s done to be able to live with himself and still have the capacity to care. and what your answer to the question ‘does his ends justify the means?’ is fundamentally tied up in ‘is jgy amoral?’ he has his dreams or his morals, and before Meng Shi died, freeing her was part of his dreams!

also, i feel like in the ways we see jgy enact (or allow) violence onto women, sex workers, etc, people who he once shared circumstances with but feels no solidarity towards (which he does hv reasons for wrt how other sex workers treated his mother but i digress) speaks to how he wants to be at the top of the crab pile-- escape from the bucket-- rather than dismantle the bucket.

we love to see some class consciousness but i dont think mdzs is the kind of story where revolution happens nor does it need to be. i think it’s worthwhile to explore personal and structural violence in a story like jgy’s. i also think it makes him a v interesting character, esp contrasted with Wei Wuxian who despite being of similar birth status, is given more tools for success (by virtue of jfm p much adopting him), but is still torn down by society when the winds blowing the right way.

this is a very half-formed thought I’m mostly throwing out in hopes someone else will grab it, but… is Jin Guangyao fundamentally amoral? I know that’s the go-to fanon characterization, especially for comedy purposes, but I think he both knows perfectly well what it takes to be a “good person” by his society’s standards, and wants very badly to live up to that– he just also feels he’s continually trapped in circumstances that prevent him from living up to that ideal.

I guess you could argue that a deeply good/moral person wouldn’t make the choices JGY makes, but… idk! I don’t think it’s that he doesn’t feel a pull to do good– he isn’t Xue Yang– it’s just that he has trained himself to take other factors into account. 

[veliseraptor]

thinking abt JGY, esp. in the beginning & I wonder if he recognized in himself his incredible capacity for evil? & hated it - the episode where he kills the captain & NMJ catches him, JGY's face as he sits & waits for the killing stroke is weirdly hopeful, almost peaceful, of course it could be his confidence that NMJ won't follow through but I love the idea of "stop me before I become the monster because I know what I'm willing to do to survive" but then NMJ doesn't kill JGY so NMJ Has To Die

Oh boy, is it gonna be Jiggy Feelings Hour? I think it is! I mean, mostly this is going to be ‘trying to assemble my Jiggy thoughts into a coherent form, possibly, after just mostly screaming back and forth with @orodrethsgeek​ and @paradife-loft​ in DMs’ but we’ll see how it goes.

And fine, since this is a serious-ish meta-ish post I will allow him some dignity and call him by his actual name. (I want it to be clear that this is not a situation where I do this because I do not like him. I love him very much.)

I wouldn’t call it ‘capacity for evil’ (I tend to avoid using ‘evil’ w/r/t describing people in general; just a preference, mostly). I think there’s a few things going on with Jin Meng Guangyao (I mean, there’s a lot of things, but let’s start with a few of them).

One: A whole lot of anger and frustration, very thoroughly bottled up because he has internalized a kind of learned submissiveness as a coping mechanism related to his status, which he hates but also feels very stuck in. So he bottles up his resentment under a smile because there’s no point in lashing out, lashing out won’t get him anywhere but in trouble (he’s not strong in cultivation, he’s lower status, his position is always precarious, his last attempt to assert himself pre-canon ended in getting kicked down a whole lot of stairs).

But it turns out that when you’re very angry, that anger doesn’t just go away when you suppress it. It just kind of…stays there. And builds, and feeds on itself, and gets bigger, which means more to suppress, but there’s still no real way to express it that’s going to work out.

Two: An excruciating awareness of his double-bind with respect to perception. He talks about this a lot, especially during the times he confronts Nie Mingjue - about how his options are limited because of his status and origins. No matter what he does, on some level he’s always going to be an outsider. There’s this sense that he just can’t win - that regardless of how he plays the game it’s going to be the wrong way. But he can’t, or won’t, opt out. 

Or, because @paradife-loft put this better in their fic so I’m gonna go ahead and quote it:

All the hard work in the world, all the pleasant faces and pleasant words you’ve trapped yourself behind cannot make them respect you. They can’t even make you respect you; more like the opposite, because his words still ring in your ears, that appeasement is dishonesty, that dishonesty is the mark of a man with no strength of character who deserves nothing.

His berserk button - the ‘son of a prostitute’ - is always about that reminder that regardless of where he’s standing, how well he’s behaving, the role he’s playing, ultimately that’s what people are going to remember.

Three: A jacked up sense of how agency works: either he has all of it or he has none of it. Which means that either he is in control of everyone, all the time - the manipulative puppet master - or he has no power and is vulnerable to attack from anyone who wants to come at him. So in order to be safe he has to be able to, and ready to, cut down anyone who tries to undercut him. Basically:

This is not, obviously, actually how it works, but it means that in a quest to try to have agency/control over his own life, he ends up stepping on everyone else’s in the process.

But to actually get back to the point of your question, after what has probably felt like a bit of a digression - I don’t think it’s so much that he wants to die - I think JGY is a survivor. But I do think there’s a part of JGY that…tests people, and I think there’s a level of expecting violence and betrayal and retaliation. Later on, when he’s in a position to react first, that’s what he does - but in that moment I think there’s an amount of satisfaction because there, see, this is the truth of the relationship that seemed like a good one, this is what it ultimately comes down to.

All Nie Mingjue’s support, and it breaks down so fast. (Yes, yes, ‘murder’ and ‘grievous bodily harm’ but really it was for a good cause. Even if probably also a little satisfying on a personal level.)

There’s a lot of what JGY does that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a tangle of self-justification that is very circular. I don’t think that JGY thinks he’s ‘right’ in terms of his actions being just, or good - I think JGY perceives the world as not being just or good ever and he’s less of a hypocrite about it as far as ‘doing what’s necessary to climb the ladder and have some kind of security.’ Sure, maybe he’s not playing fair, but who is?

There’s so much about the cultivation world in The Untamed that’s tied up in themes of hypocrisy and reputation and perception, and those are all things that JGY is excruciatingly conscious of. He very much lives at the nexus of those things. He knows what he’s doing, and he knows that it’s ‘wrong’ in a sense - that just doesn’t matter, because like everyone else (he believes), he’s just doing what he needs to do to survive.