#It was a redraw of old art... TRUST me when I say it's already better

[ghost-qwq]

gonna post my goretober art every 6 days ^^ hello chat

^^ HERE ARE MY PROMPTS THIS YEAR 🫡🫡🫡

Art under the cut :P

[gaybae1021]

Day 12: Is this love?

Aka, a Garrance lore dump!

Garroth was assigned to help Laurance get acquainted with Phoenix Drop during his recovery from the nether. Aph thought it would be good for Laurance to have someone else to talk to aside from her and Zoey, and thought him and Garroth would get along due to their shared guard experience.

Laurance is pretty down during their first few meetings, but he starts to perk up as his health improves, and he grows more trusting of Garroth guiding him through the village. It doesn’t take long for Laurance to start flirting with him, though Garroth writes it off as him just being friendly, even as he’s lowkey reciprocating the advances.

During one of their “totally platonic outings” Laurance opens up about his past: He was born in O’Khasis, and had no memories of his birth parents because they were arrested when he was a baby. He spent a few years in an O’Khasis orphanage, but quickly transitioned to living on the streets, experiencing first-hand the struggles and cruelty O’Khasis hid from the rest of the region. It’s why he’s so slow to trust; after having no one to rely on but himself for so many years, it’s difficult to be so reliant on others while he adjusts to blindness.

Garroth, while not revealing everything (for obvious reasons), also opens up; he had run away from home because he didn’t like the person his family was pushing him to be, and he’s still struggling to be his own person.

When Garroth drops him back off at his home, Laurance kisses him on the cheek before going inside.

(Old art, didn’t feel like redrawing the scene)

Garroth.exe has stopped working.

Garroth avoids Laurance the next few days. He feels awful about it, but he can’t pin down how he’s feeling, and he feels talking to Laurance would just make it more confusing. Eventually, he gets frustrated enough to go and talk with Aphra:

G: I need to ask you a question.

A: Sure? Go for it.

G: Hypothetically, if someone kissed you, and afterwards you felt like you were gonna throw up, what does that mean?

A: …like throw up from disgust, anxiety, or butterflies?

Garroth shrugs.

A: Irene help us. Come inside.

It takes a long conversation with some input from Zoey (Aroace Aph is somewhat limited in the advice she can give), but they eventually get to the root of the issue:

G: I didn’t have a say in anything growing up. Everyone just told me what to do, told me what I wanted, and I went along with it. I thought I was finally getting better, but it’s like I’m still waiting for an approval that doesn’t exist anymore! I’m so confused, I can’t even tell what I want.

A: Well, that might be a good thing to tell Laurance. It’s okay to be confused, but it’s not okay to just ignore him while you work through this. You should let him know how you’re feeling, even if you’re not sure the feelings match.

Garroth goes home to think a bit more before leaving to find Laurance. When he opens his door, Laurance is already standing there, about to knock.

L: I just wanted to say sorry for the other day. I feel like I crossed a boundary, I should have asked before trying that.

He talks faster, clearly flustered.

L: I thought we were on the same page, but I guess I’ve never done this without being able to see so maybe I misjudged how comfortable you were, and either way I’ve really liked talking to you and I don’t want things to be awkward so if you just want to pretend it never happened I’d be fine with that-

…

G: Please? For real? I need to know.

[comicaurora]

Could you please remind me why redrawing old works is a bad idea? I'm conflicted about redoing some old designs.

It's a matter of the mindset. The creative process is ultimately iterative refinement. You start with a first draft, and then you keep polishing and changing and tweaking it until it looks good enough to release. As a natural consequence of practicing this process, you will become better at art over time as your process of refinement is itself refined. As an unhappy consequence, this means your older work will no longer measure up to your newly improved standards.

When this revelation hits, you have two choices:

Pick the project back up and refine it until it's up to your new standards ("actually good this time")

Accept that your old work is imperfect because all art is imperfect and move on to new progress.

Option 1 is very tempting. It can be galling to recognize flaws in your art after it's been released, and can make you feel deficient as an artist for releasing something you now recognize as subpar.

But ultimately? At that point, that's not your call to make. The work is already out there. It's already impacted people, already benefited its audience - you don't get to decide "actually this was worthless" once you can spot flaws in it, because flaws don't always diminish the impact of a work. Once the art exists, it's already shown its worth. Recognizing imperfection in your work is inevitable, but depriving your whole audience of your art because it no longer measures up to your personal standards of quality means nobody benefits. The impulse to fix old work and the impulse to bury and hide old work are two sides of the same coin - an ego that cannot stand to be associated with the creation of something deficient or flawed. How many times has George Lucas re-edited the original Star Wars trilogy to splice in more CGI monsters and wobble Han's head around? Has anyone ever felt that those changes improved the viewing experience? Succumbing to that impulse ultimately means depriving your own audience of the vast majority of your work that they might enjoy. Your standards are not their standards, and sometimes you need to trust your audience when they say they like something, even if all you can see is everything wrong with it.

The big hazard of this mindset is also a slippery slope. Iterative refinement never stops. There's always more room for improvement, and as long as you're creating you're going to get better at creating. Your old art will never measure up to your current standards, and if that's something you can't handle or step back from, you'll spend your entire artistic career constantly revisiting the same works over and over again, trying to get them to a level your current standards will allow you to be proud of. The end result is you'll create very little. Also, when you retread old ground, you frequently lose creative momentum - it's tempting to wallow in the past or feelings of creative inadequacy, or to notice structural problems that make you question the validity of the whole project from the ground up. Once you no longer believe in what you're creating, it'll be very difficult to keep it going.

There was a webcomic I no longer remember the name of that I followed for years and years - a standard-issue urban fantasy slice of life starring a big pile of OCs that started off as a gag-a-day thing with a very standard pseudo-anime style and eventually grew into a dimension-hopping saga with about a million subplots. There was magic, villainy, jokes about hammerspace, angsty demon curses, all that good stuff. And eventually I saw the creator write themselves into a corner, decide to reboot the entire series, start a new and improved run of the comic with their shiny polished art style - and stop before the new chapter 1 finished. To my knowledge the comic is still in limbo and very unlikely to ever return.

On the flipside there was the webcomic Archipelago that, when I started reading it, had already been running for a hot minute. The artist had actually already redrawn the first chapter, leading to a somewhat jarring dip in art quality afterwards - and I observed that the later chapters were significantly better-drawn than that redrawn first chapter, indicating that the artist had redrawn it some time ago and hadn't revisited it since.

I followed the story as it updated and watched as the art and shading style evolved. To my surprise, it actually finished, and I quite enjoyed the resolution. And I sometimes thought about what it would've looked like if the artist had succumbed to that redrawing temptation again. Their art had gotten so good by the end that to bring the rest of the story up to that level of quality would've taken years.

Would it have been worth it? I had just as much fun with the jagged black-and-white animesque early art as I did the fully shaded and highly polished finale. This was a story being crafted by someone who loved the story more than they needed it to be absolutely perfect. Just from the preview images you can see how the art style evolved over time.

It was a good story and I liked that it existed, and if the artist had gotten stuck in an ego-loop over making it look perfect I might not have gotten to see it through to the end.

There are also webcomics where redrawing or "fixing" the early installments might remove things I thought were really fun about them. The ludicrously long-running webcomic Girl Genius has what could be considered a coloring error throughout the entire second and third volume - it was the first part of the comic to be digitally colored, as the first volume is kept grayscale for in-story stylistic reasons - and, like many artists when first exposed to the glories of digital art, the Foglios went pretty ham on the saturation and gradients.

It's, as the kids say, A Lot Going On. But it gives this early volume an extremely distinctive aesthetic compared to later volumes, which are more sedate and balanced in shade, even in very colorful panels.

This means the first volume is black and white, the second and third volumes are incredibly intense, and everything after that feels much more grounded and balanced. As a happy coincidence, this follows the emotional arc of the protagonist, who spends the first volume subdued and miserable, the second and third flung headlong into a world she's fully unprepared for, and everything after that figuring out how to handle herself in the real world. If this were "fixed" it'd remove a lot of the aesthetic impact of that supersaturated arc, and I have very fond memories of appreciating the stylistic wildness the first time I read it.

On my end, I rewrote and rescripted the first chapter of Aurora probably half a dozen times in the years leading up to its initial release. I wanted it to be perfect. I had drafts from my "glowy rune tattoos are the hypest shit ever and I want to put them on everything even slightly magical" phase. I had my "just found the texturing brushes in Photoshop" phase. I had a version that started with flashback chapters showing key moments from the pasts of every primary character. I was running in place and making no forward progress on anything, and the more I reworked the beginning, the less confident I was in ever showing it to anyone. I only started going anywhere when I said "fuck it, this one's for REAL" and bunkered down to draw a real, proper beginning and the two chapters that'd go after it. The first chapter I released isn't perfect, obviously - it was never going to be. Sure, there could've been a version where my lineart was smoother, with fewer coloring errors and more consistent styling - but frankly if I was redoing the first chapter now I couldn't limit myself to correcting coloring errors. I'd find more things to "fix", more structural goofs and jagged bits of writing to smooth out, and in the end I'd create something paced and laid out completely differently - another first draft to add to the pile. And once I indulge that impulse I'll need to get a glass of milk to go with that cookie, then a straw, then a napkin, and by the time I'm done the storyline is in pieces and I've made no progress.

If you're not susceptible to this kind of slippery slope mindset, there is absolutely nothing wrong with playing with old art concepts and redrawing old work. But I know how I work, and I know I can either continue making forward progress or I can go back and polish my old stuff until it gleams, which will be appreciated by a tiny fraction of all of my audiences and will absolutely guarantee that I can produce no new content in the interim. I'm willing to be 80% satisfied with chapter 1 if it means I can actually do the story.

[comicteaparty]

May 23rd-May 29th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from May 23rd, 2020 to May 29th, 2020.  The chat focused on the following question:

If someone came to you for advice about starting their first comic, what would you tell them?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

The biggest hurdle I see beginner comic creators (including myself) struggling with is the fear to begin because they "aren't good enough yet." I would tell them to just start. The best way to learn how to make comics is to make comics. You can always go back and fix old pages. Or you don't even have to. The improvement throughout your work can be encouraging. So I say, just begin.(edited)

carcarchu

know your ending before you begin! so many webcomics start and then have no idea how to continue. at least have some kind of idea of the direction you want to go to and at least a basic outline before you begin. you can always change things but going in without a roadmap is a recipe for disaster

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I would tell them to consider a few things: your desired scope, your current skill levels, and how likely you are to still love the project months or years later. I didn’t start with a small scope, so I can’t tell people to keep it simple no matter what, but it absolutely helps. Doing a short 6-10 page comic as your first thing will totally tell you if this is something you like, or totally hate. Assessing your own skill level is hard, but I try and encourage people to practice anatomy and perspective and other skills before diving right into creating a massive world. I’d encourage them to practice some writing as well. But even the act of creating a comic can help with all that. So, YMMV! And you gotta love what you’re drawing! I didn’t feel comfortable creating a story until my late 20s because I felt I hadn’t settled on something I’d be indefinitely passionate about. My likes and dislikes were still changing so much. If you can look at your idea and pretty confidently say you want to draw this stuff over and over again for years... that’s a very good sign

eliushi [a winged tale]

I find my advice will vary depending on what their vision is for their comic! For instance, if it’s a short form, I would recommend looking at different styles and experimental storytelling to find ways to best explore their work. For a long form I would advise as y’all have done so as well: start and keep going to improve. Have an ending in mind. Know the basics of character/plot and storytelling; essentially if you know the rules then you are more easily able to break them in an informed way. Most importantly is to have fun drawing, have fun with friends, have fun sharing your work

I guess sort of as a follow up... did you all receive any advice before starting your comic?

carcarchu

i didn't ask anyone in particular but the advice i read before starting mirrored what has been said so far

the advice about just starting and not being afraid is probably what helped the most

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I was told to make my first comic shorter... but with the caveat that if I absolutely could not, it was okay to try a long-form one from the get-go

carcarchu

another thing that i often tell people looking to start is that comic making is actually a gigantic time sink and requires a LOT of discipline. a lot of people i talk to really don't realize how much of a time investment it is. i don't want to dissuade anyone by telling them this but it's important to realize

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I agree with lazuli! Right now I'm actually feeling more motivation for my long comic than my short story.( I will absolutely finish both though)(edited)

carcarchu

x2 agree with claire, i've realized i'm not good at short stories

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I've been asked this question before, about first comics. I always say the most important thing is to draw what you like, for yourself.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Short stories are hard! I’m often jealous of all the marvelous one-shot comics on twitter, telling an affecting story in such little time. I often wonder if my own stuff will ever be half as successful in the emotions department. Short stuff is easier to digest but requires a ton of skill to craft well.(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Absolutely. Two of my favorite comics are 3 pages and 5 pages long and years later I am still thinking about them.

I think it takes even more skill to craft a compelling story, world, and characters in only a few pages

It is witchcraft, I swear

carcarchu

there was a beautiful short story i read about a cat before, i'll see if i can find it and share it in recs

eliushi [a winged tale]

I think a lot about the unfinished comics! even though they aren’t finished, they still stay with me. Ultimately if you draw comics, it will touch people and people will remember

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I've always wanted to do a short story like that but am not a good enough writer yet unfortunately

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Also agree with @Eightfish (Puppeteer) - you must make something for yourself. You can try and tailor it to certain audiences, but don’t stray too much from your own sensibilities. Make a comic that speaks to your soul, and people will feel it.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Pick something you love, you‘ll spent a lot of time on it.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

If you don't love it, who will?

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

And short stories are their own medium with their own rules, needs and patterns; they‘re not interchangable with longform and the otherway round.

That‘s what annoys me about the „start with 8-page shorts!“ advice. It‘ll teach you how to do shorts, not how to do long form. And I‘ve seen so many treating shorts as a stepping stone to „proper“ long-form comics, and that format deserves better.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I do see the merit in that though. There are a lot of unfinished long comics. If you have a good short story, might as well make it first. For me though, they are way harder than long stories.

I did give myself the option to end puppeteer after about 80 pages though

Luckily I fell in love with making it and won't be doing that now

But it was an option

Capitania do Azar

Yeah I'm gonna have to repeat the points already stated. Everytime I get the chance to give advice to a starter, I do focus on the discipline aspect. Webcomics (any comic actually) does take a lot of work and if you wanna make it in the long run you gotta know your pace and you gotta know where you wanna go so you can make the best use of your time

You don't need to have super solid plans but it's good if you know how much time it takes you to make one, five or twenty pages, so you can get organised

And at least in my experience being organised is one of the most important aspects

That, and liking what you do but also allowing it to change because things take time and you will change too

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

^^^I can't reiterate this last point enough

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

For sure cap! I spent a lot of time experimenting with art style before starting and I think choosing a simpler but still nice looking (to me) style has been vital for me being as consistent with my comic as I have

Having a schedule was really important to me starting out

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I think I would have said..... MAKE SURE YOU DRAW IN ADVANCE BEFORE POSTING.

I've made this mistake, and I know many people have made this mistake, but it's really easy to get stressed and demotivated when you realize that you might not be drawing as fast as you want...particularly if you're starting out.

So make sure you have buffers so that you can post those updates as consistently as you can.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'd say for my past self that make sure you have.... at least almost everything ironed out for your story first if you want to make a long form comic as your first try because trust me if you don't, you'll end up redrawing the first chapter twice lmao. knowing how it begins and ends, knowing your drawing speed and also recognizing if you're just either motivated to work on it or you're doing it despite motivation. Because those are like the main factors that affect burn out and if you don't watch out, you'll get fucked over from it. have a good sense of your self in terms of your work ethic, and your writing. Art will be supplement for that writing but you're pretty good at least understanding the basics you should be aight Also if you don't feel doing your long story first, you can always make a short story to test waters. but if ya like me and rather just jump making a long ass comic first, go for it lmao

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

I think the biggest advice I'd give would be is to accept what you've already done, kinda related to the "you're good enough to start" advice. A lot of webcomics stall out in the "gotta redraw this to be Good Enough" phase, and it's easy to get caught up in the cycle of redrawing early pages (especially once you get a few years into a comic), but learning to sit back and appreciate early pages for the stage you were when you drew them is important!

also something I don't hear creators talk a lot about, is having a support group. Getting positive responses from strangers from the internet is a rush, but it's not always going to happen, and relying on it isn't a great idea mental health wise. Having a group of friends you can bounce ideas off of and that can support you in your story helps make the lonely art of making comics a little less lonely. I wish I had known about this group sooner because it seems like a really great resource of creators coming together and being supportive!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh yeah that last point especially

like honestly if I didn't met other webcomic creators I probably wouldn't be working in webcomics tbh

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

It's so nice to have outside perspective both for art advice/critique stuff, but also just the general "hey guys drawing pages amiright"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah lmao

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

plus if/when you ever meet up with people at conventions, it's always so nice!

mariah (rainy day dreams)

Yeah, I would second that. Starting out I had a really hard time knowing how to take praise from my real world friends who are into my comic. It felt like maybe it wasn't real praise and they only like it because they liked me. But honestly the longer I make comics the more I just want my friends to like them and the less I care about what an internet stranger might think X'D Also, I watched the video on new creator tips that Joichi post in #writing_n_misc_resources last night before bed and those tips are super solid. I think folks have already hit on all of them but writing something you really like and is for you first and foremost and being being prepared for a lot of work are super important. Also, get that buffer!

kayotics

I think this was touched on already but having an idea you’re really passionate about, especially for a long form comic, is kind of essential to keep you going. You gotta keep up momentum for years, not just a few weeks. The thing that helped me, personally, was building my comic in a way that let me end it after the first story, but also let me continue if I liked it. My first chapter was definitely like a pilot for a tv show. If I didn’t want to continue, I’d just stop. But I ended up writing the second chapter before I knew it so I guess it worked out

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I don't have too much new things to add but I agree that webcomics, is a lonesome job on your own. But once I started hanging around this discord, sharing frustrations, comic compliments. The support made a big difference, no longer having to shout in the abyss of Twitter to be heard. I know when you first start out, it's overwhelming. There's so many platforms, do I do color or grayscale? (as it felt that way for me.) The best is to begin small baby steps, write scripts. Draw thumbnails, talk about it with people you trust. Generate ideas and put them on paper. Something I learn, is finding a good group community who raise you up, than put your works down(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Seconding/thirding/etcing about support. Other than that, I really don't have a single advice that I could give to someone starting out. Because it would need to be tailored to their situation. Someone who's in my exact same situation back when I started my first webcomic? They don't need ANY advice honestly. They just need to do it (which they will anyway) and learn from the experience.

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

https://tenor.com/view/doit-gif-5247874

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(Again, I'm talking about a hypothetical person who's exactly like Younger Me. Not every beginner will "do it anyway.")

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I corrected my definition, as I found out what the topic was about! I thought from everyone's comment, they felt like talking about internal feelings about community spirit.(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think that "just do it!!" Attitude is probably what I'll echo, it's what I'd have needed to hear and what I think there's probably the biggest hangup on. I think everyone tries to wait til they're ready, and it's like "you are gonna learn so much so fast and never stop learning once you start making your comic" so just, start learning now! Make changes later. You can't fix something that doesn't exist yet!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

One thing I often think about is when artists completely relaunch their comics once they become a bit more intermediate in skill level. They've improved so much during the creation process that they feel a need to go back and totally start over. I've even run into some comics where they... almost seem in a constant state of relaunch I often wonder about how to encourage new artists to move forward instead of reiterating existing stuff. Or is the reiteration not necessarily a bad thing?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I mean I guess it's not a bad thing if they're still having fun? Sometimes they're still having a blast; other times it's a form of torturous perfectionism.

Sometimes it's a bit of both, even

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, I always frame it as "unless you are rewriting, don't redraw."

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I have seen a redrawn comic go well only once

Deo101 [Millennium]

Cause if it's just to fix your art but nothing is really fundamentally changing, then you'll get stuck in a loop I think

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

and that comic kept updating latest pages while redrawing the first ones

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I've seen people do that. Where it's not a rebooot that basically stays the same, just a revamp of old stuff.

I could see myself doing that eventually tbh.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

The guy had very messy art in the beginning. Not bad art, he just didn't put much effort into it. The comic just evolved into something way bigger and more professional than he'd expected so he went and made the first pages professional looking as well

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yup Cause conics make your art improve so fast, every 50 pages you'll feel like your first one has sooo much wrong with it! So you can't get stuck just remaking pages

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Deo I don't think your first pages are any impediment to new readers. I have noticed a ton of art evolution though :0

Deo101 [Millennium]

Unless, yeah, you are rewriting and need the content on the pages to be different.

Yeah they might not be impeding but they're uglyyyyy

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I didn't notice your art changing much while reading your comic but then i went back to the first page and, woah.

big difference

Deo101 [Millennium]

It would be smth like way off in the future though if I did do it. It's not currently in my plans

I'd rather make new pages and new comics

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

has anyone ever commented on your art evolution?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah my art has changed uhhh a lot LOL I think maybe a couple times? I don't have a good memory

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I think it's probably different for everyone. Personally, I don't think really believe in going back and redoing stuff, but I also say that as someone who just spent the last year redrawing most of my first five chapters. For me, Ive always wanted to print my comic, and I felt a lot of self-created pressure to have my first book look really good. Because it's going to be new readers first introduction to the series and if I don't feel 100% proud of it, sell it to other people was going to be impossible. I kind of just felt embarrassed by my old art and writing(some of it was like 8 years old and hadn't aged well). And also if I was going to use up resources to print something, then it should be the best version of that thing. But on the other hand, redoing the old stuff has also made me really sad that I haven't been able to move forward with new chapters. I definitely second Deo. And I also think you have to know where to draw the line. Like "ok, I'm going to redraw this once and then not again" or "I'm going to redraw up to X point and call it good. I think can be a really easy perfectionist trap and time sink if you aren't careful.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it is also hard to get your existing audience to follow the same story twice

OH, webtoons features are rebooted comics oftentimes

I guess that counts as going well!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, since getting featured by Webtoons is kinda like going print; it's a form of getting Published

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah. For this other comic I've not launched yet, I've redrawn the intro 4 times. The intro onky takes like, 20 hours absolute max (latest) but I still find myself looking at it and thinking.. I could have been making new stuff :/ BUT! I did rewrite it every time so it did need to change. I should have just waited to start it til I could commit more so there wasn't a year between each intro

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

But since webtoons features update so fast I don't really mind following the same story again. Lone is already almost to where the canvas version was

Deo101 [Millennium]

And yeah wt features need to reboot for a lotta reasons, there's also probably a lot of times like. At least lengthening updates to fit the requirements

They're not necessarily redrawing it, too. They just have to post from the beginning which totally makes sense

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I'm giving myself a mantra, don't redraw, don't look back. Just move on with what you got. There's chapters I want to cover. It's just years ago, I had constant panic that the story's theme was going to change as it went, so I 'must' change the first chapter to suit the general overview of the story. But it resulted in me burning out and being self destructive to my work. I'm going to take better care of myself(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i think most redraw significantly though

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I mean, wouldn't u?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I'd have to! My whole story is only like. 20 webtoons updates?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Truuu

If that, 40 panels.. a page is like usually around 5

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed on redraw hell. tried it and I didn't like it at all lmaO

I'm kinda glad I have a good footing on my current comic and I don't want to redraw it at all unless it's adapted for something else. still like

work what you have, if you can orz

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

"Don't look back" is hard when you feel like the first X pages are dragging all the future pages down with them. I agree that you need to draw a line (no pun intended), set some criteria

The thing Eightfish mentioned -- not so bad that it'd deter new readers -- is a very useful criterion IMO

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

if you must, i wonder if redrawing the first scene would be okay?

Just as a taste of what's to come for new readers

Deo101 [Millennium]

Do you think they would notice the difference in quality and question that?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip maybe

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I've read a long webcomic where only the first chapter was redrawn, and when I got to the second chapter and saw an immediate drop in quality, I knew what exactly happened XD

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, but you're a creator! Readers don't have the same background to necessarily be able to assume that

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Just put in a note saying that it's art evolution

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

As someone who redrew their first scene for a lot a reasons, I will say that I personally think it's worth it.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Also same, I've seen it and knew exactly what happened

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, it was mentioned in the notes, but I didn't read the notes at first because I knew the archive was huge, and I wanted to Get Through It

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

if i were to do that, i'd put a note in the page itself

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That sounds like a good idea

Deo101 [Millennium]

What were your reasons for redrawing crona?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm not Crona but I redid a big chunk of my chapter 1 for writing reasons. (This was in addition to a whole reboot done prior.) The writing was... not 'this screams terrible writing' kind of bad. But it was extremely misleading/ unclear on what the overall story was going to be

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

dang tbh I did kinda redraw some panels to make the dialogue flow better. But I also tried my best to match up the quality of the pages drawn the time so it doesn't look jarring.

kinda what keii said but just minimizing the effects of shockkkk

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think this is one of the reasons why i don't want to do a comic that goes on for more than a couple years (well, for now that is. Maybe that'll change as i improve)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I redrew one intro 4 times, cause I kept rewriting the whole story.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

after that I was like "don't touch Ch. 1 again" lmao(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

1. Several panels didn't properly show what was happening in the scene. 2. Rewrote some of the dialogue 3. My art had improved so much that even if I hadn't redrawn it, the next scene would look very different. 4. I wasn't super far along, so I thought it would be good to give this another go, knowing much more about paneling, page-layout, and pacing.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

do you think there's a chance you'd eventually redraw wotp as it is now?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Hell no(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

lol then i think it's fine that you redrew!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Even if I go back and clean some things up later for print, I'm not completely redrawing anything about WotP anymore

I finally got it to a point where I'm happyish with the way it looks

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I've never totally started over, but I did a ton of drawing edits (and a few writing edits!) on my first chapter before releasing it to the public. The previous version of the chapter does look far less polished. But even then, I really only completely redrew 1 or 2 panels. The rest was just liquifying wonky faces and whatnot. Still, once it got printed, I basically locked the artwork. With how long new pages take, I really don't have time to look back much anymore which is its own kind of blessing!

In that way, I'm very glad I kept it private for a while. I wasn't confident with my skills yet - and I wanted some wiggle room. It's part of the reason I encourage people to at least have some sort of foundation, so that the jump in improvement isn't so... startling

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I actually kind of love to be startled by art evolution

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I could see myself editing wonky faces and things like that more than I can see myself redrawing! My pages only take me like 2 hours and I still wouldn't redraw, can't imagine what your timeframe would look like...

But not in your own work, crona?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It happened with a lovely comic called Wind Rose, and it is so inspiring

I wouldn't say I don't like it in my work

More that I was completely changing art styles too

Deo101 [Millennium]

I see

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think starting a comic is a good way to get those foundational skills though, lazuli

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Even if you didn't post it online, you did start

Which I think is enough

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

one of the biggest examples of art style shift I've seen

Comic is still doing really well though!

I don't think anyone minded the art evolution at all

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) Yeah, that's my dilemma! I've seen a couple very new comic artists burn out quickly, or say that they're relaunching because of their own unhappiness. And part of me wants to tell them to slow down - they don't need to post anything, just use it as a training ground.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Of course, if you yourself hate your old art you're probably more important(edited)

hm

It's still nice to have your story read though

even if just by a few friends

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I haven't read through it, but I know this is another good example...

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

another one!

This was intentional though, to convey a change in setting

It's kind of fun to look at these comparisons(edited)

I think most readers would feel the same

carcarchu

my most inspiring art evolution is from zero point idol chapter 1

chapter 90

the artist also got better at panelling too. also not only did the art change but the genre completely did too. it started out as a comedy romance then slowly became a drama romance

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Looks like you switched the images around?

carcarchu

oh it's in the right order on my side

the more bishounen looking one should be the newer one

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh! I think the more colorful one looks much better actually?

But perhaps the author chose a different style to draw more quickly?

carcarchu

uh i think the opposite

the newer art looks objectively better

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

okay i'm gonna look it up maybe I will think differently if i see a bunch of panels in context

looking it up it is definitely clear that the author is putting much more effort into later updates.

Though skimming it I still sort of prefer the style of the earlier pages?

carcarchu

i have never heard someone say that before

people usually complain they got gipped in the first chapter lol

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Can't say anything about the paneling or anything like that because I just skimmed it

Well, I like the style of the things in the first pages that they tried harder on

There are a lot of like, chibi or messy panels there

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I'm looking up the titles for these screencaps you guys presented!

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

The first one I shared is A Matter of Life and Death!

The second is YU+ME Dream (highly recommend)(edited)

mariah (rainy day dreams)

Seconded, YUME is very good and it's complete!

kayotics

I think there’s a lot of good reasons to restart or redraw past pages, but there’s a lot of people who DO get trapped in the constant iterative state of restarting/redrawing their comic, and then they don’t get anywhere with it

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

It's hard to come up with any consistent advice because people have different goals starting their comic. Like, some people just wanna do a comic to get better at art, or because they have a bunch of OCs that they want to do something with. And to those people... like, just have fun with it. Now, if you have a full story in mind, and your goal is to complete it in a timely manner that isn't overwhelming (without sacrificing on quality), this is the advice I give: 1) Plan out your story. You don't need to do a full script or whatever, but do try to have at least an outline, with an estimate of how many pages each part will be. 2) Spend a typical month (like, a month that you also have other work to do) drawing the first few pages of your comic. Don't post them yet. Count the number of pages you drew. The number you post per month should be less than that. e.g. if you drew 6 pages in that month, you should post 1 page each week. That way, you can have a bit of leeway to build a buffer without burning out. 3) Look back at that outline. How many pages did you plan it out to be? And how often are you planning on posting each page? Let's see... carry the two... this comic's gonna take HOW many years to complete?! 4) If you're comfortable with the task ahead of you, continue on to step 5. Otherwise, cut some stuff from your outline and repeat step 3. 5) Have fun with it! You might change your mind on future plot points, and that's ok! Just... try to do so in a way that doesn't create more work for yourself.

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

My advice is to just get started. I see so many people caught up in the idea that you need to perfect your art skills before starting a comic and then they just never start working on it

Your art is never going to be "perfect" and its better to have a tangible comic than a perfect one

I don't mean that in a discouraging way I just mean like no one can really achieve perfection and it's better to just create things

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I like snuffysam's advice because I have noticed there are different kinds of approach to webcomics. Some do it for fun and practice like I do nowadays. While others have a big long form series they are deeply passionate about but to start it seem overwhelming. Everyone's advice is pretty great! (edited)

DanitheCarutor

Fff I don't feel like I'm really qualified to give advice to people. I don't take art and comics seriously enough to follow most rules, so I would just be a bad influence if anything. Lol (Also everyone else has already said what I would.) I guess the one thing I would tell someone on the fence about starting their comic is to do it when you're ready. Like, I wanted to start doing comics when I was 15 but I wasn't quite mentally ready yet? I was used to doing illustrations so I couldn't stick with doing anything longer than 1 page, throughout the years I experimented with doing 1-2 pages of random scenes in stories I wanted to do, it wasn't until I hit my 20s when I was like "Okay, I want to do this!" In a way I didn't totally get into comic mode until my current project, since I was still feeling things out with the previous ones. Kinda went on a tangent there. Lol But yeah, comics are a huge commitment, I don't think it's super good to push yourself into starting if you're not mentally ready yet. Give yourself some time, do some casual stuff to prepare for the comic you really want to do in the meantime (brainstorming, concept art, character studies, etc.), or don't think about it at all if that's how you do things, then when you really get that itch go for it.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

My advice won't be anything that hasn't been touched on in this chat (so many good vibes ;_;) but I do wanna say that if I had any advice for someone to get into comics, it's to do it for yourself as the main priority. Webcomic popularity has been on the rise very quickly in this past decade, with copious amounts of creators trying their hand at their One Story, competition, exposure, and pressure are sure to set in with this wild ride that is comic making. So what do you do to combat that? How do you stay above water, make sure you have fun, or avoid turning this into what seems like never ending homework? You make your goal you. Whether You want to improve, whether You want to explore characters, or whether You just want to experiment- such a large project (let's be real, there's no easy way to do comics!) should be handled with that initial fire you had when you wanted to start the project, when you felt inspired to lay those panels down and tell that story. Don't compare your journey to others, don't feel that pressure to always Be Something.(edited)

Comics are a medium, just like film, canvas, or Video games for that matter, they have their own process and steps. Find what works for you and enjoy the ride, because it could easily turn into a long one!

eliushi [a winged tale]

I love it Krispy! You gotta do what you love

I’m just curious. What are your personal goals that keeps you going for the comic if you don’t mind sharing?

(And for anyone to answer too!)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I get what you mean and 100% agree with you. But I wanna bring up a caviat -- some people use the whole "do it for yourself" thing to shut down creators who are doing it for themselves, but also want some recognition. It's not their main priority, but it is a thing they want and it's okay to want it. I guess that goes back to the other advice about getting support. Find support, find people who won't make you feel guilty for simply wanting some recognition. People who will understand and support your goals.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

told myself that I won't let my self to lay my soul to rest till I'm done with the projects I have

so lmao that's somethin that drives me contracted to keep living till everything I do is finished lmao(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

One of my friends got told she wasn't a Real Writer simply because she wanted a readership. That kinda disrespect is not okay

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh dang

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

oh that is a whole different level from what i'm saying for sure

first off those people can go away lol

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeeeah

Again, not what you were saying, just... how SOME people twist the advice

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

and secondly, if you're not doing your work for yourself, you can easily fall into pleasing others and drown in Trying to Stay relevant, burning your creative drive too (i mean, if you can make ur comic and do that , good on you woah) but i've seen multiple comic artists crash and burn for the sole purpose of doing the comic in competition with others, convincing themselves that 'other styles' are crap bc their own work doesnt match up (gosh that was a rough one) and all in all, them just becoming so bitter with their work! THOUGH! this essentially applies to all creative fields and not just comics! And those entitled ppl who do that suffer from jealousy and nothing else. I cannot stand for those types who tear others down when faced with their own insecurity

and creators have every right to ask for help too. y'all deserve that recognition for the hard work you do, sometimes however, that isn't always available to them

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yea

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

(which is why we gotta lift eachother up!)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

You bring up a good topic that's very relevant to my struggles. It can be very difficult to know: is it okay to disregard this criticism. Am I allowed to do that? Am I allowed to like this thing about my work that people are pointing out as the bad part? Or does that make me a.... bad creator. Unprofessional, bratty, whatever. I'm not even talking about picking a fight/ getting verbally defensive. Just, silently disagreeing. I WANT to say the answer is yes, we are free to have our own opinion about our work. But dang if it isn't hard to feel guilty for doing it.

eliushi [a winged tale]

I think any trailblazers and pioneers feel this sort of sentiment.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That sounds about right

I don't really think of myself as a pioneer, but it is still something I feel in my bones

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I guess that’s the beauty of a self-run webcomic. You are the boss. Your viewership can give you critique, but you can choose what to listen to. You’re not beholden to a higher power (producer, director, patron, etc) to change things no matter what. It’s your project to run, and oftentimes only YOU know where it’s going, and you know how that criticism would change things.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ya lmao. idk like I don't see a lot of stories that run in conflict of towards what I'm doing so it's kinda nervewracking when you're like "oh god am I setting a good example or what? Should I be worried when I just want to create and share a story?"

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

If you can be proud of the story as-is, I think there’s power in that, and it comes through in the work. A confident comic is a lovely thing.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That makes me really sad that you have these struggles Kei. Your work is a project of love. Love for the things that inspire you, love for the way to tell your story, and love for that process. You are allowed to proud and tell the world about it, you are allowed to embrace the success that you gain from your work. We as comic makers do SO MUCH WORK and wear SO MANY HATS to make this mainly free to read story available, and that should be celebrated. SO YES, you CAN and you MUST choose what you want to take from others comments, their feedback, reactions, etc- but in the end, it's still about what YOU wanted to make of this work, bc in the end, you are the wheel that keeps this whole thing spinning

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I dunno about confident, but I can say my comic is an honest one. Even if I don't feel confident, I still don't let outside criticisms change what I do.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

webcomic creators aren't given the space they need to grow a lot of times too-- we're essentially producing work that easily requires a small studio to create- there's gonna be ups and downs to the process. But you have to keep in mind for your own sanity that this is still your work and your vision. If you want to explore options of improving then you should be in control of that. (we all know how i feel about crits from randos too XD!)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Agree so much Krispy. I think everyone’s goals and visions for their project are valid and if they sustain your project, then that’s a success in itself

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

agreed!

eliushi [a winged tale]

Often I see this tip and pass on to other writers that when they write their story it’s important to think of a logline or something central that is the heart of the story. I put that as my first page so every time I open my document I see it. I think it’s the same for webcomics. Find the heart of your story — why you want to write it and remind yourself of that. I find it’s helpful to keep me going

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

omg eli....i love that!!!

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

wow that is really great advice eliushi!! I'd love to steal that if you don't mind?

eliushi [a winged tale]

Please do!! It’s a gift!!

take ittt

Miranda

these are all such great suggestions. You people are a fountain of wisdom.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I wrote in the header of my documents, "everything bad that happens in the story is because of me, and everything good happens because of them." Basically to remind myself not to do any sort of ex machina or whatever. And also put my tagline. It definitely helps!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think it's a good guideline -- the "pure luck can only be the bad kind" thing. But my bro brought up the Walking Dead (I think? either that or some other really well known zombie thing?) as an example of going too far in that direction. He said the characters take a turn, open a door, etc. and the zombies just come pouring out like an unholy explosive diarrhea all of sudden, to a point where he was like "lol?" He said it was like the universe was setting it up against the characters, and he couldn't take it seriously. He's played/watched lots of zombie stuff so he's no stranger to jump scares or zombies appearing in hordes, but that one was still too much for him.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

wh lmao about that spoiler part like

Deo101 [Millennium]

Oh yeah no, too much of anything is bad.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah like, I can see that kind of extreme bad luck being used in farce comedy

Deo101 [Millennium]

Ahaha yeah

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I wonder what a story would be like in the opposite direction where everything bad that happens to them is because of them and everything good that happens to them is because of the writer

Deo101 [Millennium]

Everything Goes Bad Man A horrible superhero trying to do his best

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

A comedy! Could also make it a Shakespearean tragedy

Deo101 [Millennium]

Horror could make it work too

I was meaning my thing more like uhh, make them earn their good things and success kinda thing

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Depressing drama about a person who tries to succeed in life but fails at every turn

Nah I got it deo

Just throwing out hypotheticals

Deo101 [Millennium]

I would hate to watch or read any of these horrible things btw

But it's fun to hypothesize

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think for like, most stories, your direction is much more engaging

I don't want to watch someone fail over and over

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

There's also that trope where everything goes bad despite their effort, and then Luck just drops success on the character's lap, leaving them feeling empty

Deo101 [Millennium]

Me either LOL coming out of stories like that is always like 0_0 well nkw I'm just depressed

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

But I think something like watamote, a comedy about a socially inept girl, might be an example of what I said that a lot of people like. I haven't watched it though so I'm not sure

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, I don't know that specific one, but there are cases where people feel comforted by reading about tough luck in that "I'm not the only one" way. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea, though.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh

Grave of the Fireflies

That movie seemed more like a message about war though. It seemed like it was trying to say something

I think I could enjoy a depressing story like that if it was nonfiction or historical fiction

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It was sorta semi-autobiographical (not 100% but inspired by his own experience)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Something that feels real

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

yeah, grave of the fireflies WAS based off of the author's experiences

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I personally am okay with depressing fiction if it feels real

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Same

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Doesn't have to be based on true events

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

his sister and him were taken in by the aunt and they were actually left that way the sister died of starvation (edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Hey, spoiler tag that!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

whoops mbad

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm one of those who is 100% not... I can be okay with and love depressing stories after having seen it and then getting time away from it, but watching or reading them is a horrible experience for me

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

My Sweet Orange Tree is thought to be at least sort of based on the author's own experience, and I think that adds something to the book. (Can't confirm because the author's dead.) But even if it were pure fiction, it would remain a lovely, compelling book.

@Deo101 [Millennium] Nothing is for everyone!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I remember feeling really depressed for the rest of the day after watching grave of the fireflies

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Not everything bad that happens to them was their own fault, but Grave of the Fireflies was sort of a story about pride though. A boy who refused to suck it up and apologize to his aunt, resulting in his and his sister's deaths. I think that did make the story more powerful

hubris and all that

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

so I can definitely relate to only watching short bursts of depressing stuff

Deo101 [Millennium]

I honestly try to avoid them entirely, not even short bursts tbh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

correct! however, a lot of viewers also blamed the aunt for not keeping them. Apparently the real life aunt felt a lot of remorse for being indirectly responsible for their deaths, and her daughter was angry at her. However, the aunt was also feeling depression from her husband who recently died

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I read them rarely, but I feel like they make me more? Grounded? I liked the way Man's Search for Meaning (Holocaust survivor's book) changed the way I thought of the world

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm just hyperempathetic and they really hurt me

Not like I'm like "I wanna be ignorant" or anything

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think that one scene with the farmer telling him to suck up his pride was highlighting that he could have been taken back in but refused to even try

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Deo101 [Millennium] 100% Valid!

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Yeah. Entertainment is supposed to be fun or meaningful and if it's not then don't read it

Although, I do really believe we should learn about these topics in school at least

You have to be exposed to them somewhat

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I just don't like the kind of idea that gritty depressing stuff is more realistic, I understand learning about history and hardships but it's not something I like to think of as like "the truth jusy is that the world is terrible" it makes me feel very alone because I work very hard to see the world nit like that.

Miranda

Re: the extreme bad luck/I cause all the bad stuff for my characters I saw a tip that said coincidences can happen to get your characters into trouble, but not to get them out of trouble, and I thought that was an excellent way of putting that. (sorry to plop that in the midst of the most recent discussion)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

TBH as someone who has lived in Eccentric Relatives' House under not so great circumstances, I didn't even get any hint of "the boy should've sucked up" from Grave of Fireflies. My experience may have been worse than the boy's in his aunt's house though, and maybe my bias led me to see his experience as being just as unfair as mine. In any case it's been years since I watched it, so maybe I'm forgetting some key details.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think "realistic" means a mix of good and bad

My favorite nonfiction books contain a lot of cruelty, but also very good people

Reading about people's good work and outlooks despite tragedies really got to me

Or like, perseverance

Perseverance as a theme really, really hits me

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I like perseverance but I hate stories that are hopeless or treat hope as naiive

It makes me angry tbh

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oof same yeah

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

the aunt was still feeding them though, and allowing them to stay. If he had left his sister at home and tried to get a job like his cousins did, I think it is implied that they would have survived.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I do like my dark themes but lmao i dont want to go to wreckless cruelty. there's an art with that(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Endless pessimism is as unrealistic as endless optimism(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel like there's hopeless stories and there's stories that treat hope as naive. The former is like, yeah sure, not everyone's cup of tea, but the latter is like "if this isn't your cup of tea, then you're dumb" which is

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I don't mind dark themes it's just that sort of grittiness, humanity is inherently evil, hope gets you nothing kind of stories that I hate

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Btw. My favorite nonfiction books: Man's Search for Meaning The Gift of Fear The Gift of Pain (no relation to the gift of fear) All showcase a lot of cruelty and suffering but all are still very hopeful

I know it's unlikely you guys will read them but

They're good and I still reccoemend them highly

They are books that changed the way i think

They are also all written by people who have gone through and seen terrible things and yet made it their life's work to help others

I just can't reccomend them enough

But I will stop talking about it now

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for me, uhhh it's from famial experiences mostly

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Do you think your stories err on the side of optimism or pessimism?

@ everyone

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

since most of my family suffered from the vietnam war, a lot of stuff they told me were fist hand accounts of war and cruetlty

like from my mom, my dad, my aunties and uncles

even like the older members of my communties so that stuff is still fresh lmao

Deo101 [Millennium]

Optimism. I want to say neither but I know nearly no one would read it and say it's realistic

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh, I've had similar stories. My great grandmother had her whole family except her killed by a Japanese bomb and my family, despite traveling a lot, has still never visited Japan out of respect to her

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

but since they already living better lives I see that the darkness in those times have at least kick started them out to their kind of propserity or still striving towards

so I see myself as a realist lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I think my stories usually go a bit more on the pessimistic side I’m afraid. People have remarked that my more emotional scenes can be surprisingly dark, so I’m trying to introduce some more heartwarming scenes

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't wanna say "err on the side of".... I do bittersweet and slightly LEAN towards the bitter more often than not! But I think this particular aspect may be partly up to the readers to gauge.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think my story is realistic to me. The worst my characters experience is similar to mine, and the best is also similar to mine. But I have no idea if my own life has had more good or more bad than the "average person"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

"Sometimes life super sucks in ways you have little to no control over, but you can still be there for each other, and that really, really counts" <--- is this too bitter or just right? That's up to each reader to answer, I think.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Hey you said optimism or pessimism you gotta pick

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like there is hope and optimism but that is meaningless without the critical side of things. and I want to depict those sides in life.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Optimism

But I'm optimistic

Deo101 [Millennium]

Keiiii that's the way I write too and I think it's optimistic

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

My life has shown me that I can escape bad things so I don't think optimism is unrealistic though

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

You can't fix life but you can give love

Deo101 [Millennium]

Exactly

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i guess for my stories they kinda like what keii said like there's good side of things but lmao I somehow add some painful elements that they have to endure in order to have those good times(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

personallly I think stories work if you give people hope

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Eh, not every story is meant to give hope

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Yeah

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

but it's a good goal

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

like as long as you give people a semblance of hope, even if you throw some depressing stuff.....it can work. Oh, I meant as a bittersweet story

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

But I think not giving hope is unrealistic

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmao I guess I'm a target since the last story i write

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Though perhaps I only think that because I haven't experienced true tragedy(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it was just bleak in a hopeful light

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It depends, like I can imagine a short story that hyperfocuses on something extremely depressing.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Y'know what I have actually hopeless things in my life and I have 0 interest in reading a story that's hopeless

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye and that's fair

Deo101 [Millennium]

And even though I have hopeless experiences I don't think my life overall is hopeless

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

i wonder if people actively look for stories that focus on not having hope because i know many people read these stories as a way to escape their lives

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I agree on that. idk. for me writing stories that lead to an end that really don't work with both parties... could be just my morbid curosity in just seeing how things won't work out as planned for both persons.

could be like a philosophical thing maybe? or giving a different perspective of some sorts?

like "things are the same but given with the option you gave me, I can't go through with that"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I can relate to curiosity being a motivation for exploring dark stories. It's why I check out horror stories -- horror stories (games especially) show the MC in an extremely "wrong" situation at the beginning, and I check them out to find out the presumably equally extreme "why" for that wrongness. I don't think I could write stories like that myself, though.

Psychological horror specifically

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah, horror has been uh ingraned in my life to this point. and I like writing stories with that kind of edge in mind, more of the psycholgial aspects than horror.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Do you guys think some people search for morbid stories like these to not only satisfy their curiousity....but also to make themselves feel better about their own lives?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't particularly care to find out why Mr. Chainsaw is going around killing everyone in a splatter/slasher horror, for instance X'D

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's a possibility tbh.

sometimes I do that but I also had experienced simalar kinds of sorts that seeing those works i'm like "dang not alone in these wack feels"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I guess it depends on each person?

"Gee, at least I don't have any literal demons coming after my eyeballs" is not very comforting to me, personally

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i mean lmao

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Sometimes sad stories do make me feel more thankful for my own peaceful life but I don't seek them out for that reason

Deo101 [Millennium]

Imagine if ur disabled and that's the narrative used to make other people feel better about their lives

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

DX

Deo101 [Millennium]

Off topic but that's why disabled people hate "inspiration porn"

It's something that's really hard to explain cause "do you not want to inspire people" is really hard to answer

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah, those kinds of stories I really don't like at all.

Deo101 [Millennium]

So I wanted to jump on the opportunity to explain even though it's really off topic sorry

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No, don't be sorry. "Life sucks but hey, at least you're not me!" is not something anyone should have to put up with

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's understandable tho!

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

To be honest I do seek out stories about disability because I find it fascinating how people adapt to mental and physical changes. I find ingenuity very interesting?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I guess I look at it more towards like how some relationships with people don't work, and also the diaconomy between individuals interest me. Not for those kinds of stories but I've seen elements of that appear in some works i read in the past

Deo101 [Millennium]

I also seek out stories about disabilities, but only hopeful ones not like "my life is ruined and this is my driving motivation, to not be like this"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

One of the books I recommended was by a doctor who spent his life working with people with leprosy and the workarounds for missing limbs and sensation he and his patients would come up with was just so fascinating to me to read

It's something that's really hard to explain cause "do you not want to inspire people" is really hard to answer

@Deo101 [Millennium] I think I understand you but just curious- how do you respond to that?(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's usually like "I want to inspire people to be like me because they're proud of what I can do" but they're always like "I'm proud of what you can do in spite of-" and it's like. Idk just a deep sigh

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh yeah rip

i had that happened to me before like "Dang you do did this and you're from some a family that suffered so much--"

"uh huh please focus on the work not my life thanks lmao"

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like don't hold me to a different, lower standard. Don't pity me

Yeah exactly

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Hm it's sort of true but also if someone said "I'm proud of what you can do despite not having a dad" I'd be like fuck yoooouuuu

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like there's other things please

It's like, pity. It's not actually inspiration I think

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I'm proud of what you can do in spite of not having a brain

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

pity has left the building

like sure, yeah let's go with that but there's other experiences other than my background and my identity the brought out this work too. that's how we can get some unique voices into the field.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so yeah, I can understand rip people saying fustrating things like that. maybe they don't have a better way of phrasing it. orz

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

At the very least it's better than the opposite side

"your experiences were not that bad" angle

Deo101 [Millennium]

I get that a lot also

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

and sadly I too experienced that angle LMAO

Deo101 [Millennium]

LMAO tuyetnhi same hat

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

no one wins

hurrah

most of it came about because of my mixed idenity like I don't get hit by the usual racism my viet friends experienced

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

This is overall a very small thing but I casually mentioned I was attracted to women to a long time friend yesterday and she went full on "thank you so much for coming out to me this doesn't change my opinion of you I love you you're a great friend" And then the conversation got hella stilted and awkward after that and AG I Hate that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

but er.... I have seen people look at me and was like "mixed baby? that's hot"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Wtfff

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

"please no."

it's wack like u put me in a scale where that scale is already wack to begin with

it don't make sense lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

wait what the fuck

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

People are like why TF are u using a cane you're young and I tell them I have a condition and they're like, what does it do and I say the symptoms and they're like :/ I get those too :/

Freak out and tell them to get tested right away

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

also i really get annoyed when I see people just.......treat people with personality disorders like we're all psychos and tell others

hey at least you're not like these psychos

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh the telling others bit(edited)

Nooooo

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like my experience isn't that universal but it's already terible enough knowing that if you have mixed ethncities then you're treated as an "exotic creature" and i'm like "I'll shoot you down"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Mann luckily I grew up in a place where that doesn't really happen

I hope

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh my god i'm glad i live in a really diverse city and yeah deo....they do

we get labelled "troubled people" particularly if we're female in the mental health sector

a LOT of psychiatrists push us around and they use it as code for "difficult"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip I live where 80% the folks here are mostly er homogenous white folk

and they ask me these questions that I know boil me blood

I'm too poor for cali man

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

oooooof I feel that tuyetnhi i went to a really white uni town for my alma mater

i got called a tall chink by a frat boy there

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah I experienced that shit durring uni

it sucks

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

yoooo you can also come to toronto if you can't go to cali ;3

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I can travel to toronto but lmao maybe next year

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

maybe ;A;;

also @Eightfish (Puppeteer) wait what do you mean by your question? is it pertaining to personality disorders or to the race questions?

......yeah people tend to treat you better if they don't know you have a personality disorder

LMAO I MEAN TRUE, that's pretty obvious XD

because people think that personality disorders are untreatable. And I would like people to be more informed about them

Heck, a lot of people don't even know about BPD. So I'd rather that people stay informed about it, even if it means that I might suffer for it.

What if there's another person with BPD who needed help but the people around them didn't know? And I don't think it's fair to keep it hidden when it can easily damage relationships.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And also, "why don't you just hide that part of yourself if people treat you badly for how you are?" Is hardly ever a healthy way of dealing with things

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

better be informed than being ignorant

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yeah...I've actually considered just...putting a joke warning label on myself lmao

(but thank you guys for understanding <3)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

negatively changed? rip

ohhh nooo

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

yeah.....it's kinda like.....just because you have these negative experiences, you try not to let it stop you

because there's ALWAYS a chance that you'll meet people who understand

........I actually told a good friend that I had bpd and she started ghosting me. She was scared of me and thought i was...."weird"

and scary.

She was scared that i was gonna go psycho.

but I think it's important to know that not everyone is going to be an asshole.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it really is

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

i had a psychiatrist tell me that i probably lost friends....because i was a bitch ;A;

after formally diagnosing me with bpd

yeah and i had one psychiatrist just....diagnost me with anxiety disorder and he wouldn't listen to me just gave me a survey to fill out

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

makes them feel like they're 2d?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

yeah and they are usually very complex and have very VERY varied pasts doesn't help that the media paints us as monsters in horror movies a lot

you see sociopathy and antisocial disorder in the news a lot and then they see people with bpd and they're like

LOOK! YANDERES!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ooooffff

that's not even part of the DSM lmaO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

screams every time i see an article about how to "save yourself from someone with BPD"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

speaking from my experiences as a former psyche major

like that can't be determined solely just by those factors alone

cormidbity is a factor too

oh my godddd

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I get that a lot

also yeah psychiatrists..........they need to keep themselves updated man

they put a lot of blanket terms for people with pds because it's easier or maybe because psychiatrists are simply not equipped to deal with people with pds?

i mean look how many psychiatrists i've met or heard fuck it up with bpd

and that's one of THE EASIEST pds to rehabilitate

imagine rehabilitating someone with narcissism or sociopathy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

APD

is the proper term lmao

or ASPD

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

also eightfish....nope. it's a really long LONG road to rehabilitation. Some take years.

but it's kinda...a relief to be diagnosed OH WHOOPS

mbad

OH MY GOD THE TRANSGENDER THING

coughs in victorian times exCUSE me

hugs

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip this is from my understanding but if the condition of the disorder is either: a combination of bringing harm to yourself, restricting yourself from your routines, harm to others, or sense of losing control of your daily life then they will mostly likely dianoise. though that's what I

I've known years ago rip. idk if they hold up those standards today

or changed things from it

it really bites when you're seeking help and the folks that supposed to help you say like "but you're normally functioning so I see no problem ya u free to go"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

"if we can't see it you're not injured so get the fuck back to work"

psychiatrists who just brush you off because it doesn't fit THEIR narrative piss you off

like you're going to them for help....and they categorize you as they see fit

and when you try to go against them they label you as "difficult"

eliushi [a winged tale]

Hey friends, good discussions here but just wondering if it’s best in #general as this will be archived? Just want you all to be safe

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

ah okay! Thank you Eli

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Oof wait archived?

In what way?

eliushi [a winged tale]

Check pins(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OH GOD

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Ahh

I'm deleting every message lol

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

(And this convo is off topic)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

will do man

Deo101 [Millennium]

already on it

I just deleted everything to about 1 cause I think thats where we went off topic

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh shit yeah this is creator babble

I will delete messages as well

[edelwary]

when you were first getting into art, what and how did you draw? (like did you just doodle ur masterpieces on pieces of paper and posted-notes or did you have a proper sketchbook) how did you find motivation? bc ive been trying to draw but I always get unmotivated and stop while still wanting to get better just by doing nothing.

REALLY LONG, LOTS OF ADVICES FOR ARTISTS : 

TL;DR ; skip to the HOW TO ACTUALLY FUCKING DRAW part bc i have a megaton of shit to say lol + The MOTIVATION part 

mmh… I’ll get into details with this one tbh bc it’s a long ass process ahah : 

I live by the sea ; when i was youung i used to draw TONS of boat, but like, dollhouse boats, you could see the insides and stuff ; i loved to add tiny details and stuff, and imbricate everything together !

around 8 or 9 yo, i went to the public library with school and discovered the wonderful world of mangas ! I basically… Copy pasted an entire Mermaid Melody tome x) 

For about 2 years i alternated between reading mangas and trying to copy them ! Then i just kept drawing in the margins of my schoolwork for about… 5 years ! I have a Fuck Ton of sketchbooks of that time, it was… The start. Lol. Never say it’s bad because it’s never bad, just not there yet !!

Around my 13 yo, i went every saturday, for two years, under a bookstore ; there was a cave, and drawing classes ; that teacher was mean and harsh and stuff, but like… Not really. He would take away my eraser for the class, force me to use pencil, to draw something else (bulky boys instead of magical girls). 

I’ve learned a lot, more in terms of How To LEARN to draw than to draw itself, but i still progressed a LOT !! 

Then i kept drawing by myself for a year and i really worked hard on it ; about hours a day, trying watercolors and stuff ; i have a real problem with colors in traditionnal art, but i’m much better with lines (i should scan some RAD stuff i made in the weekend, yall ive never done anything this good i stg i dont know why i always forget im so much better on paper) 

This gets us to my sweet 16 ; i have to year of advance, bc i got ‘’’promoted’’’ idk how to say it ; anyways, i entered my (current) animation school for the first year at 16; vERY IMPRESSIVE AND TERRIFYING. 

And i learned. A fuckmegaton. Of shit there. 

Now i’m going for my third year there and i can make photorealistic marmora blades and cyberkpunk decors if i want to and that’s rad, but here is

 HOW TO ACTUALLY FUCKING DRAW : 

I have one HYPER important advice, and i’m keeping it to heart since i’m like, 11 : Have. Sketchbooks. Please !!! It’s very important. Here’s why : 

You keep everything with you in one place. You have 1 sketchbook, it’s basically easy to take every where (a A5, or A4 are pretty easy to carry, i have like, 12 of those, and around 8 of A3) 

You keep track of what you’ve done. It’s super important, bc first you can cry of laughter at your old stuff bc its cute but not so good, and second, you can just be like ‘holy mama’ and see how much you’ve improved

It’s very important to be organized. I WORK in art, and trust me, if there’s something that i’ve learned this year through tears and missing files and bugs : Be. Impeccable. Now if it’s for fun, go a little loose, and just have a folder for art on your computer, and a sketchbook, no need to stress, but the better you try to keep a record of where is what, the better you’ll see whats wrong

Notebooks are friends !! You can draw, write, glue stuff, make notes, lists, everything !!! I have my life in those. It’s more important to me than any of my phones. 

Be proud of it. Like, not everything, duh ! But try to tell yourself than it’s like a RPG ; even if it’s only 2 xp here and there, one day you’ll beat level 40, and that’s super important : art is. Fuckin. Long.

I cant stress it enough. It’s soooo long !!! SO LONG !! it’s years. It’s like karate and fishing and ANYTHING. To be good at it, it takes time, but it WILL COME if you keep trying. There’s no secret passage. 

You’re gonna me it, believe in me who believes in you. 

Use. References. 

Coming from a little shit who’s got a really good visual memory, that can sound like bs, but i stg everything is always AT LEAST twice as good if you’ve used a visual support. 

I’m not saying COPY EVRYTHING (even though thats a good training) I’m saying, if you really want to do that asian tiger, please have at least two or three pictures of it nearby. Take photos of your hands, and stuff ! 

Make it harder. 

No eraser. 

Paint. 

I draw all my backgrounds on my sketchbook with INDIAN INK; no returns, no refunds. 

Ink, Ink, INK !! Don’t allow mistakes.

And if you make mistakes :

New page, restart

It’s okay

It’s for you

I once started back again a whole EXAM bc it was bad, i got one of my best grades 

You’ll improve and be more assured if you know you just have to DO IT. Trust me. It’s VISIBLE; if you can erase, you fidget and hesitate and ‘’kbeujebez hahhaaa idkkidsd’’ ; stop ; do it, and if you don’t like it ? Try again, there’s no time limit

Draw as large as you can 

There’s no interesting story here, it just helps. Bigger movement of the hand, more place for details, breathing lines

Thin lineart helps

Thinner. Make it even thinner

Break the rules, but not the ones that structure your art 

Big lineart ? Why not

Unfinished lines, vaporeous colors ? Pretty

Cubism is actually based on extensive and intense practice of classical art, it’s not wibbly wooblly ; the anatomy is more correct than you think 

Structure and composition are important, but so is movement and life ; choose your fighter ; mine is fluidity and fun, i’m like, a rogue/archer in drawing. Some people are dwarf fighter. That’s amazing and great. 

Don’t be afraid to do nothing

Pages and pages of my sketchbooks are actually just lance facing right and smiling, you know… 

Sometimes it just doesnt work : two ways :

Take a break, Kiki’s delivery service style

Keep trying, break your art until it obeys and comes back

Take breaks. Breath. 

Don’t compare. I do it, it doesn’t help at all. You’ll make it ; and if you compare, keep in mind that everyone’s different

I’m not gonna lie, it’s NOT easy, it’s even hard 

But I really, really think it’s worth it 

MOTIVATION :

My main bitch 

I’m always pumped for art because i can LITTERALLY NOT do anything else ; i love reading and writing and stuff but at the end of the day i just want !!! to draw !!!! aaaaaa-

Fall in love with it, and with the possibilities ; i have stories to tell, tell me yours ! Do your best, one day it WILL work

Actual advices : 

I have an inspiration blog where i just reblogs stuff i like to draw them later

Find a picture, copy it. Do it again. Change the characters (i have 2 ocs and Lance and Keith as default characters) in the pic. 

Like an artstyle ? Break it to its very core, analyse it, copy it, redo it, trace it and ABSORB it. Don’t copy/past, LEARN from your heroes.

Do what you like. I have 86578 pieces of voltron, this is not a coincidence. I have ENDLESS ideas for this show, wtf. 

Try new things. Buy indian ink im begging you. It’s so cool. 

Have a game with yourself, or a challenge. STICK TO IT. 

Study. When you’re bored, usually it’s because you’re stagnating. Make it harder or do hands until you cry. 

Love your backgrounds; make backgrounds, study trees, and tokyo streets, and venice’s bridges. Decor is just as cool as characters, if not more

Mess a little with everything. My roomate more than one found me stained from head to toes trying to DO STUFF 

Draw outfits. Draw what you want but can’t afford 

MAKE YOUR LIFE A COMIC. Remember those sketchbooks ? Make a comic a week/month/every full moon, whatever, and draw your life (mine’s the roomates au lol) 

Prompts blogs are cool too 

Make fanart of a fic you liked ; you have the characters and the pose already, you just have to illustrate ; double bonus, you probably will make a writer’s day, if not year !

That little movie that plays when you listen to your favorite song ? DRAW IT

Your favorite scene in your favorite movie ? Redraw each shot. On post it. Plus it looks awesome afterwards to have the infamous TREX scene of Jurassic Parks in post it

Get bored. That’s inevitable. Dance, scream, get back to it. Walk, draw everything you see. 

Make a paper google map street view : Take a walk : every 50 meters, draw what is in front of you. 

Snapchats your friends. Draw their snapchats when they answer 

Draw maps. Invent places. Invent bikes, and hovercrafts, and monsters. Make your everyday inventory. Make your life a video game, and do the concept arts of it. 

FETCH your inspiration. I have approx. 20 artbooks, full of drawings and concept arts of my fave movies/games ; take what you like and add it to the story you have since you’re 8. We all have one. 

Ask for it ; your sis, your mom, me even ! If you dont have ideas, someone will have them. 

WELL i’m gonna stop there, even though i got like, 9864567 more to say, but with this you should be fine ! Anon, i’m rooting for you ! we all start somewhere, just hold on!!!! 

[dansphlevels]

I Won’t Help You Unless You Stop

Length: oneshot,1k words

Themes: Self harm, recovery, tattoo artist!Phil, scar coverups 

TW: Self harm, depression, ungraphic mentions of cutting

**Notes: If summary is needed for phanfictioncatalogue or something of similar nature, use the first three lines of writing. An important part of this story is learning as it goes on.**

  It wasn't the first time Dan came into his shop, and it wouldn't be the last.   But this time, it was different. Because this time, the scars were fresh.   "Phil, you busy? I need another coverup." 

 Phil looked up from his sketchbook, observing the flustered boy carefully. "Sure. I thought we'd covered them all up already."  Dan wouldn't meet his eyes. "We did. But... there's another one. I mean... a few. I just need another cover up. Now, if... if you can." He gripped his forearms, long sleeves pulled all the way up to his knuckles.  "Sit down, and we'll see."  Phil pointed Dan towards the familiar chair, and went and washed his hands. "Any idea of what you want?" Sometimes Dan had an idea of what he wanted, like with the quote tattoo on his side, or the glass tattoo. Sometimes he just said 'I don't know what I want but I know I don't want to look at these scars anymore,' and then Phil would pull out his sketchbook and flip through it. Dan was good company, always joking and laughing as he did the tattoos. He managed the pain okay too, sometimes pinching his eyes shut or squeezing his hands into fists, but he never cried, never struggled to talk or to breath. Despite Phil's many tattoos, he doubted he'd ever become more tolerant to pain.  But this time, Dan knew what he wanted. "A rose. Really dark red, and covering... covering my wrist."  Phil nodded, bringing one of his sketchbooks over. "Like this one?"  "Fuller," Dan described. "And bigger."  They sat for a while, Dan describing the tattoo and Phil drawing and redrawing it, wanting to make it perfect. Some people might have an issue with controlling costumer, but Phil didn't mind. Tattooing was his art, and he did it to make people happy, not just for the paycheck. Finally, it was done.  "It's perfect," Dan announced, staring at it like he was trying to memorize every detail of it. "I love it."  "You said you wanted it on your wrist?"  "Yeah. Right one."  Phil prepared the tattoo gun, getting the ink wells ready. "Lets see," he mumbled, sitting back on the stool next to Dan. "Wanna pull up your sleeve?"  The boy hesitated.  "You don't have to. Only get this tattoo if you actually want it, if you're unsure then you can always-"  "I want it," Dan announced, a little louder than needed. "Just... don't laugh." With a feather touch, Dan carefully pulled up his sleeve, being careful to avoid touching his skin. "It's still pretty tender. But it's fine, I can handle the pain."  Phil tensed, observing Dan's wrist- and the red marks covering it. He sat back, forcing himself to look away. "You'll have to come back in a few weeks. They're too fresh." He knew that Dan cut, of course he knew. But he'd only seen the old marks, scars that were so old they were only white lines contrasting against peach skin. But these lines- these lines were new.  Dan's expression dropped. "Please!" He pleaded. "Just do the tattoo now, it's fine! I can handle the pain!"  "The fact remains-" Phil stood, taking off the gloves, "-that those are far too fresh. I can't touch them with ink, they won't just hurt, they'll get infected. Come back later."  Dan was on the verge of tears. "Please! Just.... just... Phil, please." His cheeks were flushed, his voice panicked. "I need this. I can't bear to look at them anymore."  Phil watched him carefully. Finally, he sat back down, sighing. "Then why do you keep doing this to yourself?"  Dan looked down. "I stopped. I was clean for... forever, God, I fucked up. I just... I didn't throw it away, the thing I use to- to hurt myself. And last week, I just- I don't know! I couldn't handle it!" He pressed his palms against his forehead, just disheveling his hair further. "I threw it out. It's gone now, I'm done."  The tattoo artists reached out, taking Dan's hand and forcing him to look at him. Dan struggled, but managed to look him in the eyes, finally. "Are you going to do it again?"  "Never," Dan promised. "Never. I'm... just the idea makes me feel sick. I'm done. Never again, I swear, never. Never."  He was telling the truth. Phil could tell that. Something in his eyes, the way he was so utterly repulsed- Dan wasn't going to do it again.  "I have an idea," Phil said finally. "But you have to trust me."  "Of course," Dan nodded eccentrically, willing to do anything. "Just... cover it. I hate seeing the marks, I hate the... the reminder."  So Phil got his materials ready. He pushing the back of the chair down all the way so it lay flat, and told Dan to lay down. Pulling a little table over, Phil set a towel on it, and took Dan's hand, resting in on the towel. "I have conditions. You have to trust me on this."  "I trust you," Dan repeated, desperate to get it done. "I already told you."  "And you can't look. Not til I'm done."  Dan bit his lip tightly, but nodded. "Okay."  So Phil went and got his materials- slightly different from what he usually used- and set up, moving his chair so he was sitting in between Dan and the small table, doing his best to block the boys view of his hand. He began to die the wound with antiseptic, and Dan tensed up.  "Hurt?"  "No," Dan lied. "I'm fine."  "This part will hurt the most," Phil promised. "Hang tight."  He cleaned the wound, and then got out his next material- a large bandaid, peach colored with a plasticky texture. He started talking to Dan, trying to distract him as he worked. Dan must have known something was off, since Phil wasn't using the tattoo gun. But he didn't say anything, just letting Phil do his job.  Phil copied the line art over onto Dan's skin, and got to work.  When he was halfway through, Dan smiled softly. "I can barely feel it."  "I told you it wouldn't hurt," Phil muttered, engrossed in his work. "You should trust me more."  They sat in silence after that, just thinking. Phil focused. Dan let his mind drift. But, before too long, it was done.  "Ready to see it?"  Dan frowned. "It's done already?"  "I told you to trust me. Ready?"  Dan closed his eyes, and inhaled. Then, he sat up, and lifted his wrist up to his eyes to inspect. "Oh..."  Phil capped the last marker. "You like it?"  "It's... I... thank you Phil." Dan turned and hugged Phil tightly, catching the artist off guard. "Thank you."  "You're welcome," Phil muttered sincerely. "No charge. Since, you know. I used sharpies and all."  Dan pulled back, staring at the tattoo in awe. Actually- tattoo may not have been the best word. The rose on Dan's arm was shaped exactly like they'd designed it, except for one thing- it wasn't a tattoo. Over Dan's scars Phil had placed a large, skin tone bandaid, and did the art over in with sharpies. "You can come back in a few weeks, maybe a few months and get it done for real," Phil promised. "But only if you stop. For real, I want you to get better."  Dan nodded, his eyes damp with tears. "I will. I promise."

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