#I’m not a viv bootlicker either

[helluva-dump]

Ngl, seeing critical blogs getting involved in the anti-proship discourse is disappointing as hell, considering that many of them act like they’re more “mature” than Vivziepop, her crew, and her fanbase, but they’re having panic attacks over stupid online labels and shipping discourse. Some are even claiming being transphobic is as “bad” as drawing problematic fictional art, and it's just I can’t deal with this.

I’m sorry, but if you act like this, then you’re on the same level of immaturity as Vivziepop, Spindlehorse, and the fanbase & can’t talk any shit.

For real, like the way they’re painting Raphielle as a terrible horrible sick individual kind of rubs me the wrong way… to me it seems like they only have kinks that may rub someone the wrong way.

Now my only issue with Viv having a pro shipper on their team is that they don’t seem to separate their kinks from their fetish and ship art from their professional work.😅 now I do understand r*Pe survivors (myself included) do draw things to help cope with their trauma. (I’m not sure if that’s the same case with Raphielle though, but I know people who enjoy n*nc*n use it to cope) however, not all r*Pe survivors cope the same way.

And I think that’s something they should keep in mind when they handle certain topics. It does come off a bit like fetishizing or romanticizing it on your canon writing. There needs to some separation form that since it can seem a bit unprofessional.

But at the end of the day, these are fictional characters that doesn’t even exist.

I’m sorry what??? Somehow liking problematic things in fiction when ships makes you on the same boat as a transphobe???? That’s very transphobic if you actually think that and a stupid analogy.

I do have some issues with pro shippers but antis really take the cake with death threats. I’ve seen how they treated an artist I followed on another fandom who drew inc*st ships. Now I myself do not like that but you know what I did? I ignored it and just kept my dislike to myself. Plus me and this artist had nice friendly talks over other things and it’s not fair to harrased them over fiction.

They bullied the shit out of her, gave her death threats, and accused her of being a p*do to where she couldn’t take it anymore and left the fandom after all the hate she got.

Dude like some of these antis dedicate their whole entire blog to shit on Viv and have this stupid moral savior complex.

Tbh like Viv, I’m also gonna work on an indie project in the future that I wanna make into a comic and cartoon, and I know damn well we may have this shipping discourse. But I also just rather people separate their non canon ship art and smut separate from our project to keep it professional.

I just hope Raphielle doesn’t face death threats over this shit

[showtoonzfan]

So recently, I came across this-

https://twitter.com/LackadaisyCats/status/1694945289801433255

I dunno the full story, but Lackadaisy rejected the funds given by Viv and the spindlehorse team, and Vivziepop fans are going off, lol!

What do you think about it?

So yeah ofc Viv had to make it public and tweet to her million bootlicking fans that Lackadaisy rejected her donation, she knows what she’s doing otherwise she would have kept it private but she can’t bc she always wants sympathy points and wants people to start shit, which fans did and are still saying “Boycott Lackadaisy” as well as assholes like Sam Haft and Mel Mrozek tweeting about how “disappointed” they are. Tracy already said that she messaged Viv about the situation so there was literally no reason on why Viv made it public if this was already resolved. You know she’s seething and wants people to attack the LD crew and paint her as the superior one.

As for the issue itself, I have the feeling the donation was rejected because LD had already hit all their goals for the show, reaching up to their final $2,000,00 teir. I do feel like Tracy should have been more clear and upfront on what exactly happened tho, but again, if she already told Viv in private, then she already told Viv in private. At this point I’m just tired with this whole discourse. All this started bc a member of LD turned out to be an asshole….and it bugs me that somehow the HH/HB fandom got warped up until it and now people are acting like this is a huge war on Lackadaisy against HH/HB. Both creators/projects should just co exist but we can’t have that.

I want to be unbiased and share that on Tracy’s part, I still don’t agree with her response to Ze, she could have made an outright statement and been professional about it, but that’s pretty much it in terms of what she did wrong in my eyes and could be better at. Notice how this has nothing to do with Viv herself tho. This was drama in the LD fandom where the HB/HH fandom/crew had to stick their noses in, and I’m sorry, but Viv initiated it, and tweeting about how they rejected her donation was the final straw, because that was something she did not need to do and only did so her fan base can support and coddle her while trashing Tracy, despite none of us knowing the full story. I have no idea whether Tracy is aware that Viv is a horrible person and just wants nothing to do with her, or if the rejecting donation part was genuinely for a reason. We don’t know. I DO know that I’m tired of the unprofessionalism coming from Viv and the hypocrisy coming from her fandom.

They want to cancel Lackadaisy so badly bc ONE bad egg was on the crew despite the fact that Spindlehorse is filled with multiple shitty members like a pro shipper and someone who literally fetishizes rape, as well as entitled assholes who don’t care about the victims of Viv and just want to smear how innocent she is as well as Viv herself being outed multiple times for being an abuser. Now they’re also mad that they rejected Viv’s donation, a situation they know nothing about but they’re going to support their queen either way, and this is exactly what Viv wanted. It shouldn’t be a competition and yet it sadly is.

[weaselbeaselpants]

Weird week behind me weird week ahead of me but I’ve done a lot of self reflection and came to the weirdest epiphany. The older I get the more I realize all my ‘problems’ with VivziePop - her thoughts on criticism;  the choices she makes in story telling; some of the people she’s worked with (not that any of that’s my business; I’m not her mom) really aren’t about Viv, but more about her fandom.

I’m speaking of the preHazbin era Viv here and as someone who’s only watch horny fish jump at the surface rather than jump straight into the Hazbin-fandom, but given my ‘noncritical’ fellow fans have told me that the Vivziefandom now is also terrible - I guess I’ll go over my experience and make the most out of what I do know.

I followed Viv in 2009 and fell off in 2013 cause I kinda just lost interest and found myself wrapped up in other fandoms. I’ve always felt amicable about her content; I could give or take designs or the way in which she wrote characters -- ((Zech represent!!!)) but it’s honestly surreal and really fun seeing this person I recognize make it big and improve so much. Like I’ve said before I am very happy and very impressed with Viv doing all she’s done in the span of TWO YEARS. wow gurl.

Trouble is, there was the particular breed of fan who really made me...uncomfortable. They felt almost possessive of Viv’s attention. They sang praises about her work in a way that just made me want nothing to do with it because I was worried if I drew those characters these people would be like ‘hey, I’M Viv’s fav artist, not you!”. They would  unironically write Viv messages like:

“you are a GOD” -- “I’m so not worthy compared to you” --“I wish I was as talented as you” -- “YOU ARE EVERYTHING AND CAN’T DO WRONG VIV”.

The kind of messages which were meant to sound flattering but, intentional or not, came off as gaslighting, like they were guilt tripping Viv about being better than them. This behavior, treating your favorite artist/internet personality like your superior and groveling like Starscream, it strikes a nerve with me; partly because I was this way with my favorite artists and influences back in the day,  but also because once I got a taste of that treatment myself I realized just how bad it could be:

There was once a girl on dA who was jealous of me because of the attention I got on my art instead of her. I told her that I wasn’t gonna stop drawing but also that there was nothing wrong with her art and she’d find her place. It was weird being put in that position where someone is very clearly upset at you but also looking for your approval.

The second was some scumball who I blocked in 2016. He wouldn’t speak to me, only write condescending, backhanded comments on my art; check on my profile daily; call me a bootlicker (cuz I took commissions) behind my back; redrew my art and would talk about me in his personal artist notes about how I ‘probably wouldn’t see this’ - oh yeah all the while he did fan art of my characters but again never spoke to me when I replied. When I finally messaged him about his behavior he said he thought I was “really overrated” and “bad for the fandom” cuz I took money and kept him from getting the love he deserved. It took messaging another person within our fandom, one I had been in spats with online before, to finally realize I shouldn't put up with that bs....

That guy who was stalking me btw did so while I was well under 1.K watchers and am still pretty obscure. Anyway, I had one guy unhealthily watching me for the wrong reasons. Just one. This is why when Viv says she “hates creeps” I 150% believe this woman and am not about to call her a liar who just can’t take criticism. Like, if you really think that, I’m sorry but you don’t know what Viv’s gone through from both her critics AND fans.

Of course, a lot of people will be like “I bet you’re just jealous and really just want that kind of attention yourself so you’re preaching to the choir”, but like...no. I am envious of just about any creator who’s the social butterfly I’m not, but, like, if I'm jealous of an artist none of that is that artists’ fault. Ever. It’s my own issues with being comfortable with myself are at stake. If I criticize Viv’s work it’s not because I see her as competition or my Squilliam Fancyson; it’s because I’m a critical fan of animation and cartoons and have my own thoughts to share on the cartoons of an artist I’m familiar with.  Jealousy/envy/mixed-admiration/godIwishthatwereme.jpeg feels are totally natural and valid emotions when you’re a creator. Envy becomes a problem when you internalize, weaponize, and scrutinize people on the basis of them being what you aren’t which -yes - some people do in the name of criticism. ((Although, I would hardly say some of the nastiest AntiViv folk are jealous as much as they are angry that this project they think is harmful is getting attention and using that as justification for some really shitty behavior of their own, which no, this post is not a part of by virtue of coming from a critical fan.))

Critique can come from either a good place or bad place; good critique can be used to bad ends and bad critique can come from a well-meaning place, and vice versa.   It’s the difference between many a criticalfan having a sour taste in their mouth regarding the Viv’s base but persisting in a critique+admiration separate of that, and this asswipemonster trying to weasel his way into Spindlehorse while also bashing Viv on a public forum for clearly vitriolic reasons. He was a creep.

So yeah um please stop insisting that every Hazbin critic is just jealous’ because a) there are people who have a past with Viv’s base and that clouds their judgement, but in a lot of cases that doesn’t invalidate their feelings or thoughts on her work separate from that, and b) I’ve seen what clingy gaslighting jealous fans are. Spoiler: they’re not so much Annie Wilkes as much as they are Tommy Wiseaus. You don’t want Tommy Wiseau following you.

Another bad vibe I really picked up on that I can kinda confirm is still probably the case now: people think that they know Viv and the Spindlehorse crew and have the right to send them shit they don’t need or WANT to be seeing.

Like, I talked with Viv once ages ago. I don’t remember what I said other than we were talking about Frankenweenie, I think. She was nice. Outside of that she said “thank you” to my comments on her deviations but that’s it. I DO NOT KNOW THIS WOMAN AND unless you’ve worked with or are a legit friend/mutual of hers, NEITHER DO YOU. But I don’t think every Vivzie stan/critic knows this. Whether it be people assuming she MUST think they’re headcanon is now canon-canon cuz she liked a comment they made; or some critic thinking they must have seriously hurt her pride because they’ve been blocked by her on twitter (or you know, maybe she and the rest of Spindlehorse is tired of getting @s and don’t have to time to read through your analysis so they’re gonna just block and move on cuz they’re busy).

Just because the creators talk with fans doesn’t mean fans are literally their best friends and have a part in the show’s direction. And yes, critics and reviewers fit that bill as well. Know your damn boundaries people.

If you find/make some kind of contribution as a viewer that’s awesome but you should never expect nor DEMAND the creator see it. The most obvious horror stories involving this and Helluva/Hazbin have been the Instagrams made by the crew being harassed by incestpedo enthusiasts, but it applies even to just @ing creators as well.

I’ve seriously had someone tell me to just take my criticisms directly to Viv and like...no. Why would I do that?

I respect Viv and the artists working with her enough to know that they’re working their asses off on an animated series and should not be bothered. I don’t want them to stop all they’re doing and reply to me. I want them to keep working. Also, that kind of logic makes me wonder how many critics Viv’s found because she found it on her own or if some obsessed fan told her about it - which is really messed up cuz if it IS just good critique you’re, again, just pestering her, and if it wasn’t critique but full on harassment WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU MESSAGE HER ABOUT THAT ANYWAY? I’m sure she doesn’t need to be reminded that people drew and said really awful shit about her on Tapatalk. My point being I’m sure what people think they’re doing is

“OOOoh Viv lookitwut this person is doing in our fandom we need to ban together against this toxic behavior”

but what they’re actually doing, and sounding like, is -

“Hey Viv I know you are working so hard on the show and you’re trying to figure out where to go from here but LOOKITWHUTTHISHATERSAID. LOOKATIT! VALIDATE ME VIV AND PUT’EM IN THEIR PLAAAAAACE!”

TL;DR Viv’s fanbase back in the day consisted of everyman artists and interests but there was this one breed of fan -who I hope was just a vocal minority- that ruined it for everything else.

Call it stanning or ‘simping’ or as it’s classically known, ‘white knighting’, whatever it was it really soured a lot of people on her because of those fans.

That’s why the DollCreep drama got so bad from what I can tell. Doll and Viv had a falling out and then called out eachother online where people who took it upon themselves to speak for them starting throwing mud.

Back in the day I remember Viv used to get mad at artists for ‘stealing’ her style. I think this attitude from Viv directly has vanished but I remember it happening because one of the people she thought was stealing her style did art for me at some point and they were basically shamed/chased off deviantART by a gaggle of these really nasty Vivfans.

inb4> “VIV WAS AWARE AND STILL WEAPONIZES HER FANS THO”

I don’t know that. And honestly, where I’m inclined to believe she’d do something like that then I think Viv is really different and has improved her business and public image from her college days. I’d be very disappointed in her if she was pulling a Butch Hartman or Derek Savage, but I just don’t think she is one, k?

Viv is more self critical and aware than any of these uber protective-gatekeeping fans give her credit for. She said on the Pizzapartypodcast that she knows the Hazbin pilot wasn’t perfect; she’s been able to identify the problems with old Zoophobia; this woman knows that criticism of all kinds need to exist and from what I see she sounds like she’s trying to get used to that. It’s just, you know, when you have nasty antis badgering you, stalkers, obsessive yes-mam’ fans, opinionated shit posters, r34 artists, entitled shippers and the NDAs of a company alongside your own branded image - all that negativity, even the constructive bits, tend to clump together and you just want to scream at it so you can finish the damn cartoon already!!!!

TL;DR: PART TWO

VivziePop/mind is basically indie Tim Burton.  Her work is fun, shallow and made with love but is marketed as being for everyone when it’s really not. Parts of it I love to watch; parts of it drives me crazy cuz of reasonswhatev this isn’t a review.

BUT any fanbase where people tell me I should just “expect what’s coming to me” when I’m trying to argue against dragging creators into fandrama is troubling. People have a parasocial bond with fandoms and their creators and they need to learn when to back off.