#I think I’m back on my wishing the fandom was more ensemble focused hill

[bluedalahorse]

I really appreciated the post about YR fandom and ableism. Well, I suppose a better thing to say would be, I found it very cathartic.

Having slept on it, I’m now feeling a little bit… something? Like I’m waiting for the frustration to set in. There have been wonderful posts like this in YR fandom before, in lots of fandoms, that talk about ableism (or sexism, or racism, or classism, or whatever else.) And many people reblog these posts, and they certainly have positive intentions when they do so. I think reblogging these posts and sharing these ideas is a good thing!

I guess what always happens to me afterward is I find myself wondering what it would actually involve to shift the fandom dynamic outside the sphere of meta/analysis. Like do these kinds of posts (about various isms) expand upon the way we write fic, the praise we lavish on others when recommending their work, the moments we make gifsets of or draw in our fanart, the characters we choose to focus on for theme weeks/months?

I don’t want anyone to have to create fanworks about things they don’t want to create fanworks about—it’s fandom so we should all have our little passions, we’re all here for fun—but one of the things about using these critical lenses to examine a canon, is these lenses open up more for me to enjoy, and alert me to new ways of telling stories that are richer and more meaningful and ultimately more fun, too. Like, increased awareness of sexism and my own internalized sexism practically doubled the numbers of characters I could enjoy, because I was unlearning biases against women and thus picking up a lot of female character blorbos. And increased awareness of ableism and my own internalized ableism (I’m still learning!) has helped me envision storylines for disabled characters that aren’t just tragedy or inspiration porn or inspirational tragedy.

I guess what I’m saying is… I appreciate each and every one of the notes on a post that defends Sara Eriksson and calls out the sexism and ableism against her.

And at the same time I wonder how that translates to us writing fics about Sara where she has her own needs and desires and character arc, and isn’t just pushed into the background in a pleasant but bland way. Or like, what’s the likelihood that we’ll ever get a Sara theme week, with meaningful participation and exciting new fan works?

That goes for other characters, too, not just Sara—she was my example. I’d just love to see increased understanding of the “controversial” characters (and even less controversial but comparatively underappreciated characters) extend beyond analysis and into other kinds of fanworks.

[comicteaparty]

March 25th-March 31st, 2020 Reader Favorites Archive

The archive for the Reader Favorites chat that occurred from March 25th,  2020 to March 31st, 2020.  The chat focused on the following question:

How many pages/how long is the ideal webcomic for you?  When do you feel something has gone on too long?

Feather J. Fern

I know I usually think anything that is over 500 chapters a bit too long for a manga series, but I do have a bunch of long running favourites. But they are comedy and gag series. I do like an ending to my stories, sometimes if it keeps oging and going, I know more is good but sometimes more is too much. I know a webtoon I really liked ended around 300 episodes, and it was long running.

I think as long as I can see the end of something I don't think it's too long. Also no chapters that don't contribue to the plot. Sometimes a lot of the time, people pad out a fun chapter for webcomics but it is just too long and starts to get boring. 4 to 5 pages of fun times it a good refresher, but when it's like 20 pages of just them chilling at a pool with NO CHARACTER DELEVOPMENT (Like this is key, if there is a plotline about teaching a character to swim, that makes sense, if there is no delevopment that's a problem)

carcarchu

you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. a webcomic can keep going as long as the content continues to be meaningful and productive but once an author starts needlessly dragging stuff out just for the sake of continuing last past the point where they actually had anything meaningful to say with it that's when it's gone on too long. i'm all for fun bonus content like "what happened after the main story ended!" but there's limits to how far that can go. once the "bonus content" goes on near as long or longer than the actual meat of the story it starts to get painful to read. i'd much rather see a series end with dignity than see a long long drawn out conclusion that no one actually wants to slog through. on the flipside a series is too short when there's not enough time to develop an attachment for the characters or you DO develop an attachment and then poof story's over

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yesss, very apt quote there.

There are some ongoing comics with multi-thousand-strip archives that I'm caught up with, and when something has kept me interested for that long, it feels like the creators have hit a perfect groove and could keep it up forever. Skin Horse has lapped 4k, Schlock Mercenary is over 7k, and Kevin & Kell leads the pack at a bewildering 8k... But part of why it works is that they're very episodic, ensemble-cast series. They can introduce new problems at any time, resolve those while introducing more, jump to a whole different group of characters for a month in a row without missing a beat. The ideal length for a comic that's "one central story, tightly-focused on the arc(s) of a small core group of protagonists, all building to a single main climax" is way shorter, it would feel badly-paced and exhausting if it dragged on that long.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

As someone who expects their comic to reach fairly far in length, I don't think I'm comfortable judging any comic for any length it has ahahah. If it continues to hold my attention, length doesn't matter to me at all.

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

I agree that as long as the pacing is good and the overall direction is clear, the specific length isn’t too important to me

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve followed really long webcomic series like The Pirate Balthazar, and it really depends how flexible you are with genre. Because I noticed that in a few cases, if it goes on long enough, the webcomic may shift in tone. I like PB because I don’t mind its shift from action comedy to slice of life comedy, but many people might not share the same sentiments. I usually think a webcomic grows and develops as the artist/author grows. Maybe the changes will appeal or alienate the readers.(edited)

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I'm of the "the longer the better" camp, but I like the story to be neatly structured into volumes, each their own little finished story that still add up to a bigger whole. Kinda like a good novel series, you know?

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Massive comic archives do intimidate me at first glance - but if I'm hooked after the first chapter, then the path to the end seems all that more reasonable and fun. If the first chapter doesn't grab me, though, then the comic's length starts looking like a chore. I guess that's the case for any story, but yeah, personally, it's all about that first little hill. Get me over it, and it's smooth sailing from then on

RebelVampire

For me ideal length would actually probably depend a bit on genre. For things like horror or slice-of-life, I tend to prefer comics be a bit shorter. For me horror loses its fear factor after a point if it goes on too long. And slice-of-life I find better in small doses. Then there's things like fantasy and sci-fi, who like novels, generally should be longer cause you need more time for world-building. Then there's gag-a-day which in all essence can go onto infinity as long as the writing is still good. That being said, with the exception to gag-a-day, for genres I prefer shorter, I generally prefer them to be less than 300 pages, and for fantasy and sci-fi, I prefer less than 600. Which sounds like a lot of pages, but I've read plenty of comics with that amount that are still ongoing. Now of course, plenty of exceptions here, because if a comic is still good, it could go on for much longer for all I really care. However, just based on my personal experiences, I find for a good majority anything more than that and the comics are more likely to start dragging and padding their story too much. Also, these choices are for practicality cause I've seen a lot of comics get defeated by indefinite hiatus, and I find comics not finishing a huge disappointment. Not that I blame creators for having to move on in life, but just because I understand doesn't mean I don't get sad.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Oooof, 300 pages is not that much for fantasy to me, haha That's less than 10 chapters in the case of my comic. As a reader however, I agree with much of what was said before: as long as the story still has purpose, the length doesn't really matter. But that's more a matter of pacing than length. The only time length deters me is when I'm reading a comic for the first time, and it's over 100 chapters and still ongoing. Then, the concern becomes: "How will I ever find the time to read all this?" But there have been a few comics I started reading relatively close to when they first came out, and they went on for years and 500+ chapters. As long as the pacing is still good, it can go on forever imo.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

How do you feel about long comics with dedicated jump-on points so that you don't have to fight through the really early archives, like schlock mercenary? Because for me it makes a huge difference if there's a dedicated "join the story here!", or if you have to start from the absolute beginning.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Ah....

I'm not really a fan, because I'd feel like I'm missing something

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Same

RebelVampire

I imagine that was directed at Cronaj, but I actually do want to answer that cause it's an interesting subtopic. And my answer is can't do it. I'm a read for the absolute beginning or no dice even when give the option. I've tried jump-on points, and I really struggle because there'll be a) pre-established relationships between characters (even if its just insider jokes) I can't connect with and b) a fandom that does know the beginning and will chat about it and you wind up auto ostracized

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, like I know some people who can jump into the a TV show starting from like, episode 4 season 2 if they get some basic explanation of prior episodes. I am not one of those people.

Same with comics

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Same

I feel so left out

And I'll have to keep asking potentially stupid questions

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I can't even ask questions because I don't have enough info to form questions

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

the sad truth

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I feel that too usually I have to go on the show's trope page to catch up

but at the same time, I also still feel a bit left out

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

If the comic is worth reading, the first 100 pages are worth reading to me

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yep

Me too

It's more a matter of, do I have the time to read this comic at all?

Which I wish didn't come into my decision at all, but it does :/

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's understandable, really

not enough time in the world

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

so basically

make it worth the readers' while

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

For the right readers.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

fair enough go straight for the jugular and don't hold back XD

eli [a winged tale]

I love longforms and if I’m invested, I’m there for the entire ride, no matter how long. Will agree with Rebel that it’s heartbreaking when long stories go on hiatuses (but of course, that’s life). As for jump points, I’m one where I can hop on and if I’m intrigued, start from the beginning. I have built in season trailers for this since one of the webtoons, Hooky, seemed to have used it to good effect. One interesting thing that I love is seeing the art grow with time. It’s always so interesting to see the change and the growth.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

fair enough go straight for the jugular and don't hold back XD

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) LOL your quote always sound like you're a hunter ready for a kill

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OH MY GOD

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

that's a great point, Eli. I feel he same. Where it depends on the series, I don't mind long form, but I have to read from the start, because the later episodes will have relationships or events I have 'missed out'. I can tell when a creator has either a) interest in world building, which explains a longer series, or 2) interest in relationship development, which tends to be a little shorter in stories. I've read comics that are in-between which is fasinating and imo, hard to juggle. Oh yes, artstyle change motivates me and what I often recommend to friends. Even if your artstyle isn't up to your standard, it will slowly evolved. It gives me inspiration not to redo series. (if I can help it)(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, if the art is CLEAR enough -- both simple event/action-wise and mood-wise -- then it's good enough. It doesn't need to be amazing.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

a lot of long term webcomic series also tend to improve on their art

so as you post it, over time you'll find yourself improving because you've forced yourself to draw so much