#I love footnotes and this hymm made me not like footnotes anymore. I have never heard more talk about rituals while understanding none of i

[denzartriste]

I think the reason i don't like most modern or even old-but-still-modern-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things retellings of Persephone and Hades is because most paint Demeter as the bad guy.

The original myth (Homeric Hymn to Demeter) was very clear that, in all this, Zeus was the bad guy. When saying how Gaia was luring Persephone, the next sentence is "All according to the plans of Zeus." (My translation for the myth is this btw, i feel that's important to say because translations can be finicky--which I'm also gonna get to.)

I also think its important to say how the kidnapping happened, so I'm gonna paste it (from the translation I'm reading) :

"And the earth, full of roads leading every which way, opened up under her.

It happened on the Plain of Nysa. There it was that the Lord who receives many guests made his lunge.

He was riding on a chariot drawn by immortal horses. The son of Kronos. The one known by many names.

He seized her against her will, put her on his golden chariot,

And drove away as she wept."

It's a kidnapping, its messed up, but i also want to point out how it isnt a violent assault or rape like many people think it is--either is bad, but one is a deliberate lie meant to make us view Hades much worse and a lie i think actively takes away from this story.

Side tangent, real quick. Hades is the god of the underworld, and so we instinctively think "Oh, yeah, like the devil. He's like the greek Satan." because we think underworld=hell=Satan=hades=hades is bad then. Hades isnt good, because none of the greek gods are good, because these gods arent good and we think they are because christianity, the religion most people are taught about before they can develop their own opinions, tells us that gods are good.

My point there is redundant and repetitive, but its important for this. People think Hades is bad, and when they learn there are gods worse than him (Zeus, mostly they just learn about Zeus) they assume that that means Hades ISNT bad, because people want a good guy to root for and Hades seems like an underdog that never did anything wrong. It's also a common myth (myth as is false and not true, not myth as in greek myth) that in the actual original story Persephone just walks into the underworld/Hades doesn't kidnap her. That's not true, it comes from a 1978 story titled "Lost Goddesses of Early Greece: A Collection of Pre-Hellienic Myths" by Charlene Spretnak to make greek mythology more palable to her young daughter, the changes to all the story was just to do that--and then that led to a whole domino effect of people believing the unsourced thing. Im not gonna stand here and say that hades isnt one of the better gods morally speaking, but i am gonna stand here and say that the competition doesn't pose a high bar and people are not seeing enough nuance in him. Also him being better morally is because he doesnt have many stories--even regarding the myth with him and Persephone he isnt that important past the kidnapping. Fun fact, Persephone actually existed before Hades did. So i think that should be kept in mind when putting Hades on a pedestal, he doesn't have as much material to be bad in, so we see him as not as bad.

People are allowed to view Hades are this good guy or an evil devil, whatever, i will be a bit upset about it but people have the right to have opinions--but people also cant pretend those opinions are educated and well sourced. That's were i get actually upset and think its not just a matter of opinion but it turns into just misinformation.

Tangent over, back to the point.

Demeter hears her daughter and "She sped off like a bird, soaring over land and sea, looking and looking." 

She spends a total of nine days wandering all over the earth looking for information on what happened to her daughter, and i just want to mention that as Persephone is being taken she does think about her Demeter, and she has hope to see her again. (line 35 in the myth)

On the tenth day Hecate comes to Demeter and tells her that she heard the abduction, but didn't see who did it. Both of them go off to Helios and ask him which mortal or god did this.

And here again the myth places blame on Zeus, Helios tells Demeter:

"You shall know the answer, for I greatly respect you and feel sorry for you as you grieve over your child, the one with the delicate ankles. No one else among all the immortals is responsible [aitios] except the cloud-gatherer Zeus himself, who gave her to Hādēs as his beautiful wife."

(I think Hades should get slack for this aswell, he was the one who took her and all that. I want to be clear that i dont personally agree 100 precent with how little blame Hades gets in the myth.)

There's also mention about how Demeter is grieving for her child, Persephone, which is quite obvious--this story is about Demeter and Persephone so much more than it is about Hades and Persephone.

Here im mainly recaping the myth as im reading through it, and its long because the myth is kinda long but i dont feel as if i have much to say about it past the occasional thing here and there until we see persephone again, so ill make the text bold and big to the important part again if you want to skip.

So then Helios is basically like Well y'know you could have a worst guy for your kid to marry, Hades is fine all in all surely :D and then leaves

Demeter than shuns the company of the gods in her grief and anger, visiting mortal cities for a long time.

She's sad again, and im sure theres more about this i could say but right now i have a headache give me grace.

Demeter is approached by four sister (they are unaware she is Demeter because she looks like an old woman right now) and say: "“Who are you, and where are you from, old woman, old among old humans?

Why has your path taken you far away from the polis? Why have you not drawn near to the palace?

There, throughout the shaded chambers, are women

who are as old as you are, and younger ones too,

who would welcome you in word and in deed.”"

Demeter wishes them "kharis" which means ‘I wish you pleasure and happiness from our relationship, starting now’, and tells them her name is "Dōsō", the name suggest someone is a 'giver of gifts'. She says she was given her name by her mother. Demeter says she was taken by pirates (much like how her Persephone was taken by Hades, Demeter is grieving still.) and that she "fled her arrogant captors". (I think this is a clear parellel to what happened to Persephone, and how Demeter wishes she could also 'flee her captor'.)

She then says: "what I want is for you to name for me a house to go to, the house of someone, man or woman, who has phila children to be taken care of.10" The little 10 there is a footnote, the footnote being: "The textual transmission is garbled here, and my translation of this line is tentative"

Next part is long, im tired, it has a lot of footnotes and one is really long and i love footnotes but i also dont wanna read a huge paragraph of them. Theres mention of so many rituals i dont really understand. I am tired, forgive me.

A lot of footnotes, i love footnotes but im going to cry if there is another footnote.

Okay okay, im done being dramatic, but i dont want to spend time deep diving so the basic of what happens next is Demeter tries to make this baby shes taking care of immortal, (surely theres something to unpack there) but she fails because someone sees her burning this baby in fire and obvious they dont assume Ah, this is demeter helping my baby. No. They assume, This crazy woman is burning my baby my baby is on fire my baby is going to die And in some myths demeter leaves the baby in the fire and kills it after that, in the one im reading she doesnt do that and just puts it on the floor. Baby dies either way because she makes a promise on the river of styx that the baby's gonna die eventually and she says a lot and there are a lot of footnotes. Theres a bit more to it, she tells them to build a temple i think to appease her? Listen this post has gotten so long im not gonna say more than i need for this im bad at reading sometimes.

Important part again here!

Demeter then makes the world pretty unlivable, enternal winter basically--people are hungry, dying, whole thing. Zeus notices because hes not getting sacrafices of meat anymore, so hes like this is bad and sends out Iris. Demeter doesnt budge because she wants Persephone back, and they arent giving her persephone back.

Then: "the Father sent out all the other blessed and immortal gods. They came one by one,

they kept calling out to her, offering many beautiful gifts, all sorts of tīmai that she could choose for herself if she joined the company of the immortal gods.

But no one could persuade her in her thinking or in her intention [noēma], angry as she was in her thūmos, and she harshly said no to their words.

She said that she would never go to fragrant Olympus, that she would never send up the harvest of the earth, until she saw with her own eyes her daughter,"

After that unsuccesful thing Zeus sends Hermes "so that he may persuade Hādēs, with gentle words, that he allow holy Persephone to leave the misty realms of darkness

and be brought up to the light in order to join the daimones [the gods in Olympus], so that her mother may

see her with her own eyes and then let go of her anger."

So basically Zeus told Hades it was all cool if he kidnapped Persephone and now they're all in the finding out stage of fuck around.

We see Persephone and Hades for the first time since the adbuction, and Persephone is still very much missing her mother--she is sad, she is not happy, and she is still that way after very a long time (The time Demeter spent with humans is described to be "a long time" and the time in which Demeter has been causing hunger/death, not letting humans farm basically, went on for a year before Zeus paid mind to it.)

After hearing what Hermes has to say Hades, with whats basically described as a 'knowing' smile, tells Persephone to go to her mother, and Persephone is really happy about that. Obviously.

Here's the part where Hades gives Persephone the pomegranate seeds. Heres the quote so i dont have to vaguely recap: "But he [Hādēs] gave her, stealthily, the honey-sweet berry of the pomegranate to eat, peering around him. He did not want her to stay for all time over there, at the side of her honorable mother, the one with the dark robe."

Persephone doesnt willingly take the pomegranate seeds herself, thats something i have to say because sometimes people think she did when she didnt. Persephone isnt given a choice in this, she has to stay for one third of the year with Hades.

Sidenote--this hymm was only preserved on one thing, no original copies, and seemingly the part that explains why Hades giving her those seeds binds to the underworld for a third of the year (in some stories its a diffrent fraction, but the point stays the same.) is teared. And this is like one of the worst parts to not have but i digress. Cons of mythology is that its old and we rarely have the full stories on anything perfectly preserved.

Persephone says to her mom that Hades: "put into my hand the berry of the pomegranate, that honey-sweet food, and he compelled me by biē to eat of it."

I didnt know what biē meant but it seemed important to context so i looked it up and it means "Force/Violence." So, again, hades forced her to eat the seeds--But also i still dont know too much what i means because Hades was described as giving her the seeds stealthily, so i dont know why that would be there if he would fully just force her to eat them? But maybe force could also mean that he forced her to stay in the underworld for a third of the year, i dont know.

Persephone also was with friends when she was lured away and taken, she spents multiple lines saying the names of all of them, and a lot of retellings ignore the fact she has friends or a life outside of this thing that happened to her which is why i wanted to point it out. Retellings of this story typically put themselves on a pedastal compared to the original myth despite the fact they strip Persephone of her entire self that doesnt have to do with Hades.

I think its honestly purely misogyny, they also love to infantilize her, which is weird. From what i can tell the only times in the myth Persephone is referred to as a child is when Demeter is referred to as a mother. Persephone is Demeter's child, so when its relevant they say it. We dont know how old Persephone was when she was kidnapped because it doesnt say how old she is. Because honestly her age isnt that important--yeah, sure, i'd like to know what it is, but only because it would be further information. Gods are usually just old to a point it doesnt matter unless it's specified.

The whole point of this started with me wanting to focus more on Demeter and Persephone so im gonna get back to focusing on them and how retellings treat their relationship.

Retellings ignore any positive aspect of their relationship, which is stupid. They portray the two as clashing, despite the fact that they are describes as like-minded. It feels like cheap forced drama and like they want an easy villain. The actual bad guy in the story is mostly Zeus(and Hades in my opinion, but that's suprisingly more nuanced.) but if retellings make Zeus the bad guy, then they have to say why hes the bad guy. He's the bad guy because he told Hades he could kidnap persephone, but retelling dont like mentioning anything Hades can do thats wrong so obviously that cant happen, right? So making Demeter a villain surves multiple purposes. It takes away blame/complexity to Hades's actions, and in the same breath makes them moral. If Persephone's mom is sooo awful then clearly Hades saved her! Obviously he's good, obviously he's just misunderstood, the kidnapping isnt even a kidnapping if you think about it!!! Demeter being this awful unreadable mother in retellings only serves to make Hades more 'good' and, while you'd assume it adds some depth to persephone it just doesnt. Retellings never make her conflicted in a way that matters, it never makes her miss her mom or her friends--because she doesnt have friends in retellings.

Hades and Persephone's story is complex. It's nuanced in a way i cant even begin to dissect--Arguably they are one of the better relationship between gods, if not one of the best period. They have stories past the Homeric Hymm of Demeter--They have stories past the abduction.

And there's no point in butchering a story when there are myths in greek mythology that are forbidden romance + overbearing mother. If thats something you want, Eros and Psyche are right there. I havent read the myth myself, and my knowledge of them is second hand, but if you want an antagonist mother who doesn't like their relationship look no further. Ancient greece wasnt good to woman, i bet there are more stories with evil moms. Search for them. Leave Demeter out of this, and for the love of all thing stop spreading lies about this myth. There is genuinly no Pre-Homeric versions of it. Stop.

Anyways yeah this is long, have a nice day anyone who read all this. Also this is a good source for the myth and Persephone as a whole if you want to know more