#I got the new and unending dawn and everyone hates you ending again last night

[mercuriallily]

I have 80 hours played of Slay the Princess and all 97 achievements how am I STILL finding new stuff

[ailuronymy]

Book Club: Tallstar’s Revenge, chpt. 19-27 overview.

Meta analysis of Erin Hunter writing tropes and trends, courtesy of two acclaimed e-sports commentators: 

“[Erin Hunter is] like, we need these characters to seem smart, so they will be the ones to call out all the bullshit. But they [the writers] don't go, wait, why is the bullshit even happening, it doesn’t make sense, and then write something better in the first place. I guess because we read these books on such a meta level so often, it really feels like watching one person play ping-pong against themselves, but one persona needs to look good so the other persona keeps giving themselves wedgies at the table and holding the paddle the wrong way. Which is... less impressive overall than just watching a nice normal game of ping-pong.” - S.

“Erin Hunter, about to self-own: I'm gonna pull what's called a pro-gamer move,” - K.   

“Literally! I can’t get past it. I know both players are you, Erin Hunter. I can see you putting on your dunce hat and walking to the other end of the table. You’re not tricking me.” - S. 

This week we’re discussing this chapter through these nine questions. Please feel welcome to do the same and @ailuronymy + use the tag #ailuronymy writing challenge. Happy reading and I’m looking forward to seeing your feelings about this book.

1. First impressions?

K. Oh boy. Lots of emotions, lots of rollercoaster moments. I'm actively hating the things that are happening, all the time, forever.

S. Mood. I would say actively detesting what's happening is the primary emotion now.

2. How did you feel reading this section?

S. Very much bounced between anger and frustration, with moments of genuine delight. Very much extreme ends of the negative and positive spectrum.

K. I don't think I've been more confused and full of pure venom in my life. As a writer I am appalled, and as a reader I am... so uncertain. The good bits were truly lovely to read, though. They made it feel worthwhile, when they shone through.

3. What chapter did you find most interesting/moving/effective, and why?

S. I think it's got to be the conversation with Heatherstar and Barkface. I think that most hooked me. I was also interested with the Flailfoot conversation, although I hated the turn it took. It will be different in my version.

K. Chapter Twenty is the one that actively had me yelling aloud. I was so ready for the Erins to make Tallpaw a tunneller out of sheer fear, and so to see the back-to-back catharsis of Heatherstar disbanding the tunnellers and then Dawnstripe being so A+... god. It got me good.

4. What chapter did you find least interesting/effective/most frustrating, and why?

K. I honestly blue-screened throughout all of Chapter Twenty-Seven, the last chapter. Without anything happening at all,  I saw a swathe of unending, dull descriptive text and my mind just blacked out to save me from comprehending any of it.

S. Was that the moonstone one?

K. Nope, that's like, the very last chapter of our reading. When he leaves the Clan and finds some rogue cat to lead him in the direction of a house.

S. Oh right. I forgot that too. I'm going to go with the Moonstone chapter, though. I fell asleep and dreamed of a better book for that whole time.

5. Is there a passage that stuck in your mind–for good, or not-so-good reasons? What is it, and why did it stand out? Try breaking it down and analysing what this passage does and how.

S. There were several things in this chapter I loved and that really resonated with my concept of Tallpaw and my writing. 

S. “He’d be a warrior soon, then a senior warrior like Hareflight. One day he’d be an elder, limping like Whiteberry and sharing stories from moons ago with his denmates. Above the vast sky stretched toward distant horizon. The Clan looked small and fragile beneath it. Was this it? His life laid out before him like an old story, told again and again through countless moons? Tallpaw’s chest tightened. Suddenly he felt trapped, as though he were in the tunnels once again.”

S. ��A thought flashed in his mind. We’re just visitors, like the rogues. We arrive, we eat, we sleep, and then we move on to StarClan. The only difference was that Clan cats stayed in one place their whole life. I’ll only ever see heather and grass and sky. Tallpaw felt WindClan’s borders pressing closer.” I loved this kind of thinking showing up in the story, and I’d have loved way more of this and far far less of literally everything else. You could honestly cut out all of the Sandgorse angst and just lean into this, because it's good and it's real.

S. I also lost my whole mind at this bit: “They’re survivors, like you,” Barkpaw purred. They walked in silence for a while. Talltail gently steered his friend toward Outlook Rock.  “I love this view,” he mewed as he led Barkpaw out across the stone. Barkpaw peered into the night-shadowed valley. “Why? Everything is so dark and far away.”  Talltail sat down, beckoning Barkpaw to sit beside him with a flick of his tail. “Just wait.”  “For what?” The sky was growing pale as the sun pushed up toward the horizon behind them. Glancing over his shoulder, Talltail saw weak rays seeping through the bare branches of ThunderClan’s forest. “You’ll see in a moment,” he told Barkpaw.  As he spoke, the sun lifted above the trees. Sunlight swept the moor and lit up the tips of Highstones.  S. I was basically like fist-pumping. Canonical evidence that dawn is Tallstar's favourite time of day. I didn't know this before I wrote my other story, but damn it feels good. I love when things line up serendipitously like that. 

K.  Absolutely. Those felt so good to read. Not a very long passage, but: “How could his Clan be so unfeeling?” — This isn’t a galaxy brain take or anything, but I do love how evident it is that Tallpaw is just. Solidly projecting his own feelings onto everyone else. They’re not unfeeling, dog! You are!!

6. What themes have you noticed in this section? Are these themes a continuation of the themes you noticed in the first section, or has the story’s focus changed since then?

S. In the first chunk, I picked out "division" as a theme. And that feels very true still, as far as what's happening in the story. It's even more emphatic, with Palebird pushing Talltail out of her family (or so he feels, and with reason, in my opinion) and his self-imposed removal from the clan.

K. "Desire" might also be poignant for this section, actually. Talltail's desire to go off on his own, Barkface's desire for Talltail to be happy, so many other background characters doing something with their lives to have a new start (while Talltail broods).

S. Yes! I agree there. It's actually pretty interesting how the clan's unity in the face of tragedy and their kinship with the visitors is actually a big catalyst for Talltail to feel that division happening. The more together they are, the more apart he feels. I think desire is true of this too. There's--as always--a lot of emphasis on individuality, and choosing your own destiny and doing what you want.  It reminds me of that line from Hawkheart that I really liked, how every cat has to choose their destiny.

7. If you were going to learn a lesson from this section, what lesson would it be? What message stands out to you most clearly? Do you agree with it?

S. I think insofar as I can glean a lesson from this section, I'd go with learning from Heatherstar: sometimes it will be difficult to help people and they might resent you for it, but if you have the power to make a positive change, you should act, even though it's hard. S. That feels very appropriate, given the state of the world right now. So many people are angry that authority figures are telling them to stay home and prevent the spread of COVID, and are resenting the very people who are trying to save their lives. I can see that same issue playing out so clearly in these chapters, after the death of Sandgorse in the tunnels.

K. Absolutely. It's so, so easy to direct anger towards something or someone tangible, rather than accepting that there are things that Just Happen and there's nothing you can do about it.

K. I was going to say something very similar: the things you need to make yourself better aren't always the things you want to hear. So many people try to help guide Talltail away from his anger or towards other, much healthier ways of thinking -- all of them trying to tell him he doesn't HAVE to be a tunneler is one moment -- and he just HATES hearing it, every time. He doesn't want to accept it. It feels better to be in his emotions about it, even if that's most obviously the worst thing he could be doing for himself and for others. Sometimes you just have to let other people give you the honest to god vibe check and learn to put your heart down for a bit, to see what you need to see.

S. Definitely. I feel that getting better necessitates taking responsibility for yourself. It seems like Talltail is resisting that, maybe because it's difficult to be honest with yourself. If you try, you risk failing. And the problem with any kind of self-improvement or recovery is that it's overall made up of little moments of trying to be better every day. That's so much failure to face, it can feel insurmountable. Whereas one grand gesture of revenge? So much easier.  Anger is a motivating emotion, so if you stay in anger, you can often get things done. But anger is also an emotion that makes it harder to react with patience or think clearly. A double-edged sword, if you will.

K. Absolutely. Pinning "if I complete X Task, I will feel better and fix myself" on some big goal is way easier.

S. I think that's what's happening for him at this time. He's not willing to do the mundane, scary work of trying to be better each day, and is going for something he thinks will alleviate guilt instead. But of course it won't.

8. The title of this novel is Tallstar’s Revenge. How do you feel about that title so far? Does it reflect the content of the story well, or would you choose a different title? What alternative title would you suggest?

S. I personally feel the title sets up the story poorly. Because I knew it was hinged around revenge, I was alert and looking for it from the start. I was paying attention to potential betrayals or crimes, so on. And when I realised this extremely unlikeable awful character, Sandgorse, was the catalyst, I got real mad.

K. I don't even know what better title would work, since I'm honestly not very fond of the Super Editions titles. They just... all do the same, on-the-nose shit and it makes it very boring from the start.

S. I think if we were allowed to tweak it a little, The Forgiveness of Tallstar, would be a title I would potentially enjoy more. There's an ambiguity to it, re: who is being forgiven. Is it Tallstar who needs to be forgiven, or is it Tallstar doing the forgiving. And I think you could thematically tie that in so much better to the kinds of beats this story is already showing up.

K. The only like, quote from the book that I think you could mangle into a title is "We guard the edge of the world," which like... I dunno, having something like "On The Edge" included in there feels right. The book's obviously full of big tension and drama within Windclan, while also noting that they literally are on the fringe of Clan territory.

S. I think maybe Beyond the Edge of the World? Since that’s essentially where Tallstar’s journey takes him? 

K. Yeah!

9. Many of us read because we’re curious to find out what’s next. How has curiosity featured in your experience of this book? What’s motivated you to keep reading?

K. Hoo boy. Honestly, half of the reason I'm reading is just with crossed fingers that somehow, SOMEHOW, Talltail becomes better. I know he must. He has to.

S.  For me, curiosity is a big part of why I'm reading--and continuing to read--this book. I want to know what happens next! I'm just usually expecting not to like it.

Final notes:

K. I'm excited for Jake to show up, because I feel that'll help break up whatever the hell Talltail is doing. He needs an excitable twink to break him from the evil fog he's in. S. I don't know if Jake is a twink, honestly. K. Oh, very true. We do love a good himbo. S. He's a bit of a rolypoly boy, according to the wiki. K. OH, even better. K. I forgot that Talltail is the twink. S. He's just a long sad string bean.

K. I AM APALLED AT THIS TURN OF EVENTS, ERIN K. This book is… it’s like being consistently starved to death and then given like, a single apple slice and going ravenous for it. There are so many moments that FEEL great (even if they’re not miraculous, writing or content wise), almost solely because so many things that precede them straight up cause my reader brain to flatline. The despicable one-two punch of Chapter Nineteen into the handful of great moments in Chapter Twenty makes me feel like I’m being waterboarded by Erin Hunter. K. Erin Hunter, holding my head down into the waters of godawful content, before yanking me up for air to see Heatherstar and Dawnstripe saying Good Things just to shove me in again. S. I can't disagree with you. S. I genuinely had moments of going "yeah!!!" followed by "NO!!!" like that one John Mulaney skit.

S. Anyway, I'd like to start us off with a familiar old Erin Hunter classic theme, quoting my notes:  - "Is it even a Warriors novel without multiple birth scenes?" - "Oh excellent another peripheral birth scene, I felt that there wasn’t quite enough in this book so far" S. If I don't have multiple women moaning and/or shrieking and/or groaning from birthing pains in my Warriors novels, I'd be devastated. K. It'd break the immersion.

K. I am very happy to see Deadfoot on the scene though, even though he shows up for like. .5 seconds before he's gone. A very good and lovely baby boy. S. “Tallpaw turned back and tucked his nose under the black tom’s belly. “Hang on!” he warned, flipping the kit onto his shoulders. Tallpaw purred as the young kit dug his tiny claws into his pelt, and carried him over to his littermates.” uhhhh what the fuck K. YUP K. Y U P K. HEY ERIN S. Let me just uhhh toss this child like a sack of potatoes over my cat shoulder real quick. K. Tiny Tim over here S. I lost it. I'm like, you really don't care what cat bodies can do, do you?  K. Erin Hunter: hmmm what if we just pepper in some wack shit. Like, what if it's just. Nonsensical as fuck. Who's gonna tell us we can't? Harper Collins? S. And the answer is: of fucking course not, kitty kung fu time.

K. “You’ve turned mean, Tallpaw,” Reena spat. “ That’s why you’ve got no friends anymore. Whenever a cat comes near you, you bite their head off.” “So?” Tallpaw hissed. “At least I don’t kill them.” “See what I mean?” Reena’s gaze hardened. “Why don’t you talk to me once you’ve finished feeling sorry for yourself?” — God I love Reena, calling it like it is. S. Mood, but also: hate Erin Hunter for doing this to him, over Sandgorse. K. "Flailfoot is trying to reason for a Sandgorse Redemption Arc and I will NOT be having it, you LOSE sir, GOOD DAY," S. Note two from my notes page: "I DON’T CARE ABOUT SANDGORSE" S.  Gets abused by father. Father dies in what is objectively an accident caused by his own defiance and hubris. ??? Goes on a hateful revenge spiral to try and make daddy proud. K.  The worst part is that, unlike Bluestar's which was a fucking awful mess the entire way through, this one gives us just enough to show that the Erins are capable of like. SOMETHING. They can write okay things! They know what they're handing us is bullshit and they do it anyway! It's infuriating. S. From a writing perspective, it's kind of fascinating to see this all happen, because like. What a fucking horrorshow. S. Really feeling in this moment for the people who think Erin Hunter is a good writer. They're getting swindled on Sherlock is Garbage and Here's Why levels. S. Where's the secret good fourth episode, Erin???

K.  “Tallpaw’s wish to learn the skills that led to his father’s death shows true courage.” — HEATHERSTAR WITH THE PREMIUM ROASTS K. Followed by: image: “fuck them [tunnels]” K.  “Shrewpaw!” Dawnstripe glared at the apprentice. “Show some respect to your Clanmate.” Hareflight joined them. “Stop teasing him, Shrewpaw!” “This has gone beyond teasing!” Dawnstripe snapped. “If Shrewpaw were my apprentice, I’d claw his ears.” — HOLY FUCK, GET HIM K. The fact that nobody has noticed Shrewpaw using his claws during training is fucking ridiculous, though. He's done it the whole book, Erin. They would know. They would know. S. Admittedly don't love how everyone's concept of discipline is straight to violence, but we'll overlook that, I guess. K. I understand that like, bullying is something that can go unseen very often, but like. Come on, man. S. Yeah. It's like wearing knuckledusters to a playground fight. Hard to overlook.

S. It's what happens when your characters don't have internal worlds. They're just props standing there until you need them, not people watching and listening to what you're writing right in front of them. S. The problem with Erin Hunter's writing for me is that by this point it's hard to read their female characters generously. S. Most of the time I can go, "okay but if we pretend this woman is real, what rich inner world does she experience?" and try to pick up where lazy writers leave off, but like... Erin Hunter's characters are so vapid. K. It's horrible to read. It's just the worst. S. Not just the female characters, but especially the female characters. And I hate it. K. I'm genuinely surprised that Dawnstripe and Heatherstar haven't been mangled already, but honestly, half of my rage at this book comes from their moments, because it shows that the Erins know exactly what they're doing and how bad this fucking plot is. K. Two major background characters are constantly talking about how things Should Not Be The Way They Are, and it just makes me wanna bang my head on a wall. I know you can see the elephant in the room, Erin. You know this. You know the bad things you're making. S. I genuinely feel that’s why they do it. They make bad plots because it’s easier to make certain characters seem smart or likeable if everyone’s a rude idiot.  S. They’re like, we need these characters to seem smart, so they will be the ones to call out all the bullshit. But they [the writers] don't go, wait, why is the bullshit even happening, it doesn’t make sense, and then write something better in the first place. S. I guess because we read these books on such a meta level so often, it really feels like watching one person play ping-pong against themselves, but one persona needs to look good so the other persona keeps giving themselves wedgies at the table and holding the paddle the wrong way. K. FUCK, THAT'S EXACTLY IT S. Which is... less impressive overall than just watching a nice normal game of ping-pong. K. Erin Hunter, about to self-own: I'm gonna pull what's called a pro-gamer move, S. I just can't get past it. S. I know both players are you, Erin Hunter. I can see you putting on your dunce hat and walking to the other end of the table. S. It makes it really hard to sink into the story. Whenever something stupid happens, I'm brutally yanked out of the narrative, and it's happening constantly at this point, because of the direction they're taking Tallpaw. S. I've tried to like, put that aside and imagine his perspective, but it's so challenging for me to envision an experience where I'm a nice boy on a moor with an idiot backwards dad who bullies me and tries to control my life with emotional manipulation and disregard for authority, and then he dies of the thing everyone was saying was super dangerous and off-limits, and then I lose my mind because I didn't make him proud while he was alive (which he's not anymore, because of tunnelling) so I need to do the thing that killed him (which is tunnelling). S. Tallpaw can't be smart and also have this characterisation for me. It's too incongruent.